As Christians, we can easily get wrapped up in this belief that the church is on the losing side of history.

We feel the shifting winds of culture blow away from us.

We hear story after story of major church leaders either leaving the faith or succumbing to some sort of moral failure.

It makes sense to ask ourselves: where are our wins? Where does the Church have victory in times like this?

In this episode of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Podcast, Henry Kaestner and Justin Forman bring some clarity to those questions in a segment we call “the riff” where we bring listeners in on some of the internal conversations we’re having as a team.

They’ll share about some of the incredible wins happening across the world and give examples of Faith Driven Entrepreneurs who are solving some of the world’s greatest problems by stewarding their businesses and resources for God’s glory and the good of others.

Join the conversation by sharing your thoughts on LinkedIn or sending them to podcast@faithdrivenentrepreneur.org.

If you like this episode, you can follow, rate, and share the show. We publish new episodes every Tuesday with entrepreneurs and innovators who use their resources and influences for God’s glory and the good of others.

Episode Transcript

Joseph Honescko: It doesn’t take long to look out in the world and feel defeated. Wars, division, YouTube comments. It all seems so chaotic, even hopeless at times, and this might be especially true for people of faith. We can easily get wrapped up in this belief that the church is on the losing side of history. We feel the shifting winds of culture blow away from us. We hear story after story of major church leaders either leaving the faith or succumbing to some sort of moral failure. It makes sense to ask ourselves, where our wins? Where does the church have victory in times like this? Today on the show, we hope to encourage you with some answers to that question. As we kick off a new segment, we’re calling The Riff, where we bring listeners in on some of the internal conversations we’re having as a team. Our co-founders, Henry Kastner and Justin Forman, we’ll talk about some of the incredible wins happening across the world and how a lot of them are happening through faith driven entrepreneurs who are solving some of the world’s greatest problems. These are faithful men and women who are part of this movement, just like you. And we’re all fighting on the winning team together. I’m Joey Honescko, and you’re listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Let’s get into it.

Joseph Honescko: Man, I’m excited to have you guys here chatting with us because like we said in the intro, this is a new segment. We’re testing out a lot of new things in 2024 are going to play with some different formats. It’s not that we’re getting rid of the traditional things. We’re still going to have interviews and stories that highlight incredible entrepreneurs from around the movement, but we’re also going to play with some new things. The last few weeks, listeners have heard those compilation episodes with some various subject matter experts speaking on particular issues, and today we’re starting that conversation around the riff. And it didn’t take long being around the two of you guys for riff to become this vocabulary term for our entire team and is this is the source of the riff? Is that a Justin thing or is that a Henry thing?

Justin Forman: Oh, it’s definitely not text and phrase, but it is one of those first things for me. But it’s Henry and I were spending more time together years ago that I came back. I think it was from some trip, and I started talking about that with [….], and we’re talking about something and I think I said, hey, I’m just I’m riffing. And he goes, oh, is that what you’re doing? And it was a moment where I, you just recognized that so many conversations. The word riff was so much in Henry’s vocabulary.

Joseph Honescko: Henry, help us out here a little bit. How would you define a riff?

Henry Kaestner: It’s a freelance type of, like, kind of going off and what it is, it’s a polite way for me to kind of distract people from the fact that I’m talking too much. If I talk too much about something I’m passionate about, if I give it a really cool name like riff, then it kind of legitimizes it a little bit.

Joseph Honescko: And I think that it’s those conversations where we’re riffing, where we’re just going off is usually where we end up accidentally almost saying something that was like, oh, shoot, that was extreme. And one of those big ones that have come up recently is Justin like you started saying this phrase, the church is winning. And I was sitting there thinking like, man, Justin, I love the church. I am passionate about the church. I’m passionate about the Christian faith. But winning is something that I have a hard time with because when I look out my window, it doesn’t feel like it is. So Justin, how is the church winning?

Justin Forman: Yeah. Great question. You know, I think just to echo what you’re saying, I love this idea of us riffing here together and collectively because it’s everyone’s movement. It’s a collective thing. And this gives us an opportunity for us to share some of these things externally about some of the things God’s speaking to us, processing through the team together, and really just check it in to see is, is this something consistent? But to get to your point, when you talk about winning, I think I think we’re taught like something about winning from such a young age, whether it’s sports or something. There’s some energy, some enthusiasm, some momentum that I think people just it’s contagious. They want to win. Now, to your point of what you’re saying is, it is very easy to feel like we’re on an incredible losing streak. Name your favorite team or the least favorite team. Growing up in Michigan, I could look at the Detroit Pistons. They went on, what, 27-28 game losing streak here recently, set the NBA record, most losses in a row consecutively. There was nobody in Detroit excited about the Pistons in that moment. Flip to the reverse. And you see the Detroit Lions going on a winning streak. And there’s so much momentum. There’s enthusiasm, there’s excitement, there’s energy. There’s something contagious in it. Now people are more and more wanting to play for that team. And so when you look at that, I think there’s something inside of that that is intriguing to think about. But I think we’re winning a whole lot more than we think. I think that there is a media that promotes fear, that has business models on fear, that suppresses what God is doing any time that they can. And it’s easy to get discouraged. And yet I think it’s happening all around us. But I think that we have to start by looking at this more on a local level, like, where are the wins in my family? Where are the wins in my day? Where are the wins in my community, my church, and start to celebrate those stories because I think the wins are happening. Yeah, we are just combated by a force of people that are really overloading us with the negativity.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, so we are absolutely on a winning team that will ultimately win. And as Justin said, we all want to be on a winning team. And I was so encouraged the other night, many of you might know that we run this thing called inklings here in the Bay area for a regular men’s group to encourage each other in the pursuit of faith family vocation like C.S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien once did. So we had our speaker on Tuesday. It was Bobby Grunwald, who is the founder of YouVersion and has helped develop online church. And he’s talking about the different metrics. And just really his entrepreneurial story is just incredible. And actually we do have a podcast. It talks a little bit about that with Bobby. But what he said that really got me fired up was that last year, you know, this is something’s been going on for 15.5 years. And there was a point in time where the YouVersion Bible was growing at five, six, 7% a year. And there are some people are saying, no, it’s kind of reached the saturation point as as many people care about the Bible, you know, you got all the iPhones, the word’s gone out, he said. Last year in year number 16. YouVersion grew 83%. And he talked about this, the engagement with God’s Word. And then he said, lest you think it’s just something we did necessarily, printed versions of the Bible increased sales at 27%. That’s not likely something we’re going to see as a headline. But the feeling I felt inside me was like, that’s so awesome. I mean, it’s just it was exhilarating. So why was it exhilarating? On one hand, it’s awesome to see God’s kingdom advance, just as he’s talked about when Jesus came into [….] in God’s kingdom. Um. That’s awesome. But there’s something powerful like, you know, go team. And this is a big deal. This is something that people are in this day and age, amidst all this bad news and people love and kind of talking about the fact that the church is just kind of old or hokey or whatever the case is. The reality is the God and the Holy Spirit are winning over minds as people seek real truth. And it doesn’t stop just with scriptural engagement. Maybe it starts there, but in so many different aspects of what Justin and I and you Joey and the entire team fine. We’re finding people winning.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, I think it’s such an interesting thing because for some reason, in my theological brain, I can kind of take a step back, and it almost feels wrong to say that the church is winning. But I think of the scripture where it talks about the gates of hell will not prevail. And the assumption there is that Christians, that the people of God are actually charging the gates.

Justin Forman: Yeah, I think there’s something deep there that when you talk about this idea that we know that in the end, who wins? But celebrating the winning that happens to leading up to that. I think that there’s two often times big gap. I mean, if I would put it this way, I don’t know what the score is, but I don’t think the score is as bad as what people make it sound like. I think if we really look around us, there’s just a whole lot more wins. We’ve just lost sight of how to find it, how to celebrate it. And I think that’s part of it. We even wonder, is celebrating it wrong? Like, at what point do you cross over from like, celebrations, excessive celebration? And what does it look like for us as a church to celebrate in a way that doesn’t feel hokey or contrived or cheesy or forced, but really feel that that same natural feeling that you feel when you’re in sports or anything else.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah for sure. And just a quick reminder, Henry mentioned that Bobby Greenwald episode is episode 53. If anyone wants to go back and listen to that. But I’m also thinking, we’re talking about this victory, Justin, you were talking about it on a local level, but also on this kind of larger level. And this is the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast, right? So the presumption there is that it’s entrepreneurs listening. What is the role. Because I think that it’s easy to think that this area of winning or Christian effort is the area of charities or nonprofits or churches. But maybe, Henry, I look to you for this. What is the role of entrepreneurs as they go out and do their businesses? How can they contribute to the wins for the glory of God? But using the gifts and the resources that we’ve had toward that end?

Henry Kaestner: Well, I think that we can all just understand that we’re instruments of God’s power for his glory, and that that’s really cool, and it delivers more joy and satisfaction than any other thing that the pattern of the world would tell us would deliver that type of satisfaction. And I think when we look at people in the marketplace, just some quick examples I think of. I think about Anthony Tan, who has gone out there with this, uh, ridesharing and all of Southeast Asia unapologetically, uh, despite being in so many Muslim nations under God’s power for his glory, he’s winning. Grab is winning. Grab is the dominant brand in Southeast Asia, having firmly subplanted Uber. And he’s winning and he’s bearing witness to it. But it came out of his Christian faith. And just saying to God, what’s wrong in the world and how can I fix it? And I just realized that taxis was no longer safe for the rider or the driver. And so he wanted to fix it. Uh, I think about, you know, I live here in Silicon Valley, so I maybe I tend and trend a little bit more towards technology, but you don’t need to look any further in virtual reality to think about Renji Bijoy at Immersed or Quinn Taber at Immersed, two of the leading AR VR players out there and technology, and both of them having started their business because they wanted to be solving a problem that would advance God’s kingdom using what their gifting was. And, you know, we’ve got hundreds and hundreds of examples like that, but it doesn’t stop there with just technology and with entrepreneurship. But you know what? It’s a big part of it that does. Because Christ followers ability to bear witness with excellence in the market, whether it’s a mark series at a cloud factory or whether it’s Hobby Lobby, Hobby Lobby, you think about, you know, the heroes in the world and what the green family has been able to do. They crush it. They crush it by every metric that matters. And then with their incredible abundance, they have made such an incredible impact in society. They’re winning, chick fil A’s winning. And those are some of the stories that everybody knows about. But they shouldn’t be discounted just because they’re out there in popular culture. And there are thousands of faith driven entrepreneurs that maybe some of them inspired by them, but more importantly, inspired by the fact that there’s God who loves me so much, as messed up as I am, loves me so much that he’s given me the gift of life now and forever. And it’s out of that joy and gratitude like I want to do it all. I want to bring every gift I have. And for me, I’m an entrepreneur. I’m a business guy. I know something about code. I know something about AI or web 3.0, and I want it to be bring it to the altar as my meaningful form of worship in an endeavor to bring about God’s kingdom.

Justin Forman: I think one of the fun things, I mean, part of this episode we’re trying to draw into some of the conversation wrapping internally is that we talk often with faith driven, that we don’t want to be prescriptive, that we want to just really be there to support the work of what God’s doing. Non prescriptive movement. I think we’ve looked at winning so prescriptively. I think we’ve seen it as like, oh, we’re winning, win this ministry that we give to does this we’re winning, win this company you know has a great product. It scales it to some of these things in it. I think that sometimes we get so focused in on how we play the game versus winning kind of the game. And I mean, certainly we want to have good values in that. But what I’m getting at is a.

Henry Kaestner: Run the race as if to win it.

Justin Forman: Yeah. But what we’re getting at is there’s this idea, it’s like there’s some massive problems. I mean, as you said, media is putting darkness in overwhelming fear based things all around us and drawing the attention to it in the church. So oftentimes we can get fixated on how it has to be done. And, oh, it has to be done this particular way. And what we’re rallying around is this idea whether it’s building, whether it’s giving, whether it’s investing in the next company, there’s wins happening in all of those different ways. And if you’re trying to get that foothold on this beach of darkness, whatever the issue may be, you’re not just going to try and take that with just one. You’re going to have the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Marines. You’re going to need it all to take that. And I think as a church, sometimes we have focused on it has to be done through charity or it has to be done through this. And I think there’s a freedom of thought. Now that’s saying let’s get less focused on how, but let’s get more focused in on solving the problem and really tackling it from there. Now, we don’t want to cause long term harm by helping to the point of hurting, but let’s use all the things that are at our disposal.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, it’s not a matter of pitting these things against each other, but actually seeing how they work in unison that it’s charity and entrepreneurship and investments. It’s all these different pieces kind of uniting. I want to take a step back real quick here, just because I feel like we’re talking about winning and we’ve given some great examples, and I think that the three of us kind of have a sense of what we’re talking about. But I wonder if there’s a way, even just to define what we mean by winning there a little bit. And, Justin, maybe I’ll throw this to you because I’ve heard you talk about this a little bit. But when we say winning, right, I mean, it doesn’t negate the fact that there are issues in the world. There are serious problems that need solutions, but that there are wins happening within that. So maybe you can just help give a little bit of definition and clarity around what we mean when we say the church is winning.

Justin Forman: Yeah, well, I think that it starts with this idea of nobody starts a venture and just says like there’s one single line outcome 30 years from now, and we wait until that moment. You find those mile markers all along the journey that you’re celebrating, and you’re drawing attention to each one of those wins winning the day, the hour, the week, the game, whatever it might be. And I think a lot of what we’re talking about is there’s wins happening every day. When you look at the Grab story and you think about every person that now has safe transportation into that, when you think about every job that’s created, everybody that can create more opportunities to provide for their family. Each one of those is a win. And how do we find that way to celebrate it? But we’ve talked a lot about, um, Bob Buford Leadership Network halftime, his book, if you remember halftime, he had that tagline of from moving from success to significance. And it was so instrumental for so many people that we’ve talked to. We’ve been on video shoots on the other sides of the world, in Singapore or wherever it is, and you can talk about the impact that that’s made on people. But I think the more that we film those stories, as we’ve recognized, there actually is a halfway point before we start talking about winning that when we quoting Bob’s line from success to significance, there’s a surrender in the middle of that. And I think that when we see these stories of winning and winning, maybe at scale or sustainable or consistent or over time, there’s a moment of surrender. And I think about whether it’s the Greens or Casey or others along the way, that there was this point where God took them to a place of surrender, and once he got them to that place of surrender, that’s when he saw this things happen. That’s when you saw the significance or the scale. And I think that we just have to make sure that before we’re so focused in on winning, we also have to recognize the point of surrender.

Henry Kaestner: It goes back in the Bible, as they were building the Tower of Babel were winning. They were building the biggest building that had ever been built. But they’re building for the wrong reasons. And they didn’t win, you know, really poorly. And I think just in your on is something there is so important, which is how do we know we’re winning and we’re winning the right game? Or are we running in the right currency, in the right points system. And if we’re winning in terms of and I’ve got to ask this to myself all the time, what is winning? Is winning the approval of my peers is winning the dollars on my bank account is winning the number of sales or is winning? Been able to be drawn closer to God and knowing God and His love for me more. What’s really the winning? And then when you think about winning, it’s okay. So that sounds soft, but you know, maybe the Bible kind of like makes it a little clear to us and that is that, um, we can get a return. I’m an investor and an entrepreneur by background, and so I love the guaranteed return. And it’s not the guaranteed return of the parable and the talent so much. It’s the guaranteed return that comes in the parable of the sower. If I can keep the thorns at bay, the worries in the world and the deceitfulness of riches, I will win. Man. That’s awesome. So you know what? I am winning. I’m winning. And it’s because I have been given this insurmountable lead in this race by virtue of the fact that when God looks down at me, he doesn’t see an investor that’s in the top quintile or the bottom quintile. He sees his beloved son. I have an insurmountable lead. Do I feel that? Does that give me the power to just continue to just to run the race out of joint gratitude for that? Or does it give me a sense of complacency because I get such an insurmountable lead? I can just kind of sit and, uh, and just kind of wait until the game’s over.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah. I’m hearing this language of surrender being a key piece of this. I think identity is maybe another one. I guess one of the questions I’d have would be, we are hearing these stories and we’ve highlighted a lot of them. You’ve mentioned grab. We have a video story of that on a YouTube channel on our website. Uh, you mentioned a bunch that we’ve talked about on the podcast. As much as these are growing, it still seems like there’s a large crowd of entrepreneurs, Christian entrepreneurs, faith driven entrepreneurs who maybe are still struggling with what it means to win or what are the barriers that stop us from winning.

Henry Kaestner: I’ll give you one, I’ll give you one. Uh, one is that I think the Christians are afraid of talking about winning. So I want to give a shout out to my friend Darrell Heald, who’s helped me to understand this concept a little bit more clearly as we’ve been talking about, well, how does this impact ministry and not for profit? So he’s like, I’m not talking about the word impact anymore. I’m talking about winning. I think that there’s something about Christ followers and appropriately so that needs to have a sense of humility. I just finished reading The sermon on the Mount again, to be very clear, humility is extraordinarily important. And yet we had to feel really good about how we’re part of a winning team and feel good about the celebrating it in a way that doesn’t point to ourselves but points back to God. And that’s difficult. And it’s just as difficult as like, don’t let your right hand know what your left hand is doing. And then over here it says, you know, do these great works in such a way that people will see them in honor of your father in heaven. And so those things would seem to be attention, except the thing that really helps us in this instance, about glorifying a father in heaven is that’s the end goal. And so part of it is surrender. Part of it’s also just like, what are we really winning for? And then we have to check ourselves. And it’s, you know, it’s Proverbs 16:2 and 21 to all of a man’s ways seem pure to him, but his motives are weighed by the Lord. Do I want to see myself win, or do I want to see God win? If we really get it and we really celebrate when God’s kingdom is advancing and that’s what’s going on in our heart, I believe it’ll build. So, you know, the other thing, and this is what guys, ladies and gentlemen who are listening to this. Why we call it a riff. It’s another way to excuse the fact that I’m long winded, but I have to give you this one last illustration and it’s as follows. What’s the biggest thing when you think about in terms of the kingdom advancing on Earth? What’s the biggest example that we might look at? Well, it’s revival. It’s one in the Hebrides. There are few, if any Christ followers, and then all of a sudden the entire Hebrides islands worshiping God. How did these things happen? And that’s a game that was, you know, clearly there’s some winning going on there. What did that look like? It all comes down to heart posture. Like Justin started on in this riff. Right. So these two guys are in a barn in the Hebrides praying for a revival. And one of them had been in Psalms that day and had been at the psalm which talks about, you can’t approach the mountain unless you have clean hands and a pure heart, said, you know what? Maybe we should stop praying for revival. Maybe we should start praying that God might tell us where our hands aren’t clean and our hearts are not pure.

Justin Forman: Yeah, I think I love how you’re pointing back into history, because I think that that’s one of the things that we miss. There’s a winning tradition here that we’ve overlooked. There’s a winning tradition throughout history that has a very rich history. But when you look back, the church has that rich history of the first orphanage, the first hospital. There’s so much in our history, and I don’t know if it’s we haven’t told those stories well enough. Over time, we’ve lost sight of them over the generations. We’ve been drowned out by things. But I think we have a responsibility to tell those stories. But to tell those stories in a way that doesn’t inspire people to then fall in a line and check a box, but to write the next story. And what I’m getting at is I think when we look at entrepreneurs and investors, it’s an interesting thing that oftentimes we’re asked for something accessible, simple, something we can do give check a box. But what really makes us come alive is when we get into this idea of like, you’re inviting me to solve a problem. When you really ask me to start solving a problem, you’re pushing into the very DNA of that entrepreneur, of that investor. And I think that’s part of the problem. I think over the years that we have, um, taken very talented entrepreneurs and investors, and maybe it’s a conference, maybe it’s a video series or whatever it is, but we’ve turned problem solvers into attendees. And we’ve just taken away the very superpower, the very unique DNA that’s there. Instead of affirming that DNA and finding out ways to use that more. And so I wonder how we find, um, reclaim our history. We reclaim that rich winning tradition, and we also change the invitation and change what we’re asking people.

Henry Kaestner: And then we celebrate the minor and major victories along the way in a way that’s public enough that people can see the momentum shift and we celebrate the winning, and then people jump on the bandwagon. Detroit Lions start winning and you’re in Detroit or any other place in the country, and you’re seeing a whole lot more Lions jerseys and hats because you have some noticeable and reportable wins. But if a bunch of Detroit Lions fans went to the game and the Lions won and they’re like, I don’t know if I want to really necessarily celebrate the win. And I just, you know, it’s kind of embarrassing to be a Lions fan. So when I go back to my school or my workplace and I can really say that I’m really a Lions and I’m kind of like a covert Lions fan. Then nothing happens. As Christ followers, we have to go out there. We have to find the wins. Celebrate them, join the winning team. Put on the jersey if you will. And then we’ll find that other people will join us.

Justin Forman: I think what we’re seeing here as we talk about this villain is, I mean, this is an epic quest. I think too often times we’ve been invited to vine. This is like we’re sacrificing or trading down. But, man, we’re invited onto this epic adventure. And how much more fun is it to do it with friends? Like people want to win? But gosh, it feels good to win with a team. It feels so much like. I mean, you see the camaraderie. I think not too long ago there was one of those videos, the junior national hockey team celebrating their win, and they were singing the anthem. And gosh, you just saw the camaraderie and you saw the emotion on the screen. And yet we have to recognize that’s harder than it sounds. I think it was you, Henry, you were talking about the other day, the challenges of. And maybe it’s not even just specific to men, but you’re drawing it out with men or just men later on in life. It’s harder to make friends. It’s harder to find that new band of brothers. But man, when you do and you do it around a mission, there is just nothing like it.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, just a couple numbers here. 1 in 5 men say they have no close friendships. Only 25% of men say they have at least six close friends. And that’s fallen quite a bit since 1990, where it was above 50%. So it’s actually getting worse. These numbers about friendships and male friendships. The Surgeon General warning came out because it’s not even just a social isolation, but this actually ends up having effects on our literal health. It has connections with Alzheimer’s, high blood pressure, inflammation, all these health conditions as well. So it’s not even just that it feels good to be part of that team. It’s literally better for us to be doing these things and to have victory with one another, right? I think that that’s a powerful point.

Justin Forman: I think it’s a powerful point because I think that we’ve looked at it as a luxury item. I think we’ve looked at this in a way that we think that, oh, that’s nice if we have it, but I’m fine if I don’t. What you’re pointing out there in the statistics is that’s not the case. It is no longer the case. Loneliness is real tech, whatever it is. Walls, division. I mean, I think about that in our kids and the isolation of what technology has brought. And there’s a lost art of making and building friendships. And I think one of the things that’s encouraging about this conversation is when we are building right now, media, there was a phrase told to us by a small group pastor that it spent years in developing community. He says. If you aim for just relationship, sometimes you get relationship, but rarely can you turn that conversation on mission. But if you aim for mission, a lot of times you’re going to get mission, and relationship becomes a natural byproduct. It’s stronger than most relationships.

Henry Kaestner: You go ahead and say, hell, go make friends. I mean, theoretically, you could cozy up to somebody, take off shopping, okay, you know, what’s your handicap? And that’s great. Oh, you went to [….] I went to Stanford or whatever. No no no no no. You meet that same person within the context of working on a house to shelter single families or something like that. You’ve got this mission, and all of a sudden you just become friends and you’ve got this bond that is like friendship and like, dog years, and it’s just so much more.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, yeah, we’ve got a couple episodes in the future this year that we’re going to talk about friendship, and maybe we’ll do another riff on that as well. But time is running out on this one. We can’t riff forever. Um, so we’re going to close here. But hey, if you’re listening to this and you want to join in on the riffing, if you’ve got some thoughts about the church and if it’s winning and the wins that you’re seeing in the world, reach out to us and let us know. You can reach us at podcast at Faith Driven entrepreneur.org or hit us up on LinkedIn. We post every Tuesday when we release these episodes, and we’d love to just carry on that conversation, but we want to hear what you’re thinking about these topics and have you jump in and join in the riff in that sense. So thanks for tuning in this week. Thanks, Henry. Thanks, Justin, for joining me, and we’ll catch you all in the next episode.

Joseph Honescko: Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. We’ve got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms, and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There’s no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at Faith Driven entrepreneur.org.

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We’ll start our journey with Maxwell Anderson, an entrepreneur and the publisher of the popular weekly newsletter “The Weekend Reader.” He’ll take us through some of the jarring statistics about entrepreneurs and mental health before we hear from pastor Steve Cuss and psychiatrist, Dr. Curt Thompson on the practical tools we need to care for ourselves so we can care for others and our businesses.

Episode Transcript

Joseph Honescko: All right, here’s the bad news. Entrepreneurs are on the cusp of a mental health crisis. Anxiety. Depression, loneliness. These words are just as familiar to us as innovation, grit, and leadership. And even if you haven’t read the articles or heard the statistics, my guess is that you experience this reality on a daily basis. You feel the stress that comes from building something new. You carry the burden of your team, knowing they and their families have trusted you in the vision you’ve been given by God. Entrepreneurship can be heavy, but there are ways we can lighten the load. That’s why today we’re going to highlight three expert voices that help us see how we can manage our mental health as entrepreneurs. We’ll start our journey with Maxwell Anderson, an entrepreneur and publisher of The Weekend Reader. He’ll take us through some of the jarring research about entrepreneurs and mental health. Before we hear from Pastor Steve Cuss and psychiatrist Doctor Curt Thompson on the practical tools we need to care for ourselves, our teams, and our businesses. I’m Joey Honescko, and I’ll be guiding you through this episode of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. As we pull from conversations Rusty, William, and Henry have had on entrepreneurship and mental health. Let’s get into it.

Rusty Rueff: So Max, you’ve hit on an important topic that is way more prevalent than maybe we talk about. Maybe it’s one of those things that sort of get hidden in the corners, but you found it. Walk us through.

Maxwell Anderson: You know, in my own life as an entrepreneur, I’ve found this kind of funny dichotomy where on the one hand, when I’m working to start something new or build our business like I am incredibly energized and I feel like I’m doing what God has made me to do. And it is thrilling to have the autonomy and the creativity and all of that. And then, on the other hand, sometimes in the same day, sometimes, you know, the same hour of having that first feeling, I experience anxiety or I experience loneliness or experience at times what I would call depression. And so I felt this going on inside myself. And then, as I would with close friends talk, who are also kind of this similar journey, who would reveal that they are going through these same feelings. And I’m like, you know, I keep having these conversations over and over again. So I feel like it’s going on. It’s far more relevant, prevalent in experience than you would know otherwise. And so I started doing some digging and some reading and research on this. And to say that 50% of entrepreneurs report having a mental health condition. 50%. Every other person you meet who’s doing a startup has self-reporting. They have a mental health condition that’s not including the ones who aren’t saying it right. Entrepreneurs are twice as likely to be depressed. So one third of all entrepreneurs, one out of every three entrepreneurs you meet is depressed or struggling or has struggled with depression. Those are enormous numbers. So it’s not like, yeah, you know, some people go through this, it’s a hard time. No, a lot of people go through it. And my guess and we don’t need to get into the details of the study. I’m not going to critique it. My guess is it’s even higher than those self-reported numbers there. But to me, it’s not just a little thing. It is a very, very big thing. It’s a very common thing. And when you think about it, it makes sense that it’s happening.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. You know, the entrepreneur, we’ve all been there. We feel like we carry the world on our shoulders in the work that you’ve done. Is there anything that you can, you know, put out there that helps us understand how to take some of that off of our shoulders?

Maxwell Anderson: Well, I think that how do you address it first requires saying, well, what’s causing it? So the diagnosis and again, I’m not a mental health professional, but combination of the studies I’ve read and then just my own thinking about it, you know, I think it comes down to there’s a few main drivers that need to be addressed if you want to take the world off your shoulders. So one issue is the issue of just severe anxiety. So, you know, the number of people who are searching with Google, with anxiety over the last five years, that anxiety search term has doubled over the last five years. And as an entrepreneur, like by definition, my favorite definition of entrepreneurship is going out and achieving a goal by harnessing resources that you don’t control. That’s money. That’s people. That is production capabilities, right? You figure out how to do those things even though you don’t control them starting out. But as a result of that, you’re kind of always on the edge. Very rarely, the entrepreneurs who get overfunded right, you’re just scraping and scrambling to make a buy. And so there’s a lot of scarcity that you experience as an entrepreneur. And, you know, I read one study that when you have a scarcity mindset, like it really affects your thinking, the quality of your cognition decreases. So one study found that when subjects simply thought about a big bill that would strain their finances, their cognitive abilities plummeted by an average of 14 IQ points. Similar deficit to pulling an all nighter. Right. And by definition, that is what all entrepreneurs, they’re quite literally probably pulling all nighters and they’re facing this scarcity. They really are running out of cash constantly. So you have this financial risk that’s creating a lot of anxiety for people, entrepreneur they are going without a paycheck. You know, they have maybe their own personal capital poured into the venture, or they’re taking out credit cards. And if they have skin in the game to a degree that is severely anxiety producing. Second thing I think that is anxiety producing practitioners. Is this imposter syndrome, right? You know, you’re doing something that has not been done before. Most people are telling you that you are crazy for trying to do it. Most people are telling, you no, when you ask them for money, but there you are, you’re the CEO, and then someone decides to find you and you have to make all these decisions for the first time, and you feel like you don’t know what you’re doing, and there’s no one really to tell you otherwise. And so this is a common thing. I would spend a lot of time on it. The imposter syndrome, I think a third thing that we’re dealing with more now than ever as entrepreneurs, but as a culture, is an epidemic of loneliness. So we talk about this and we see this, I think, across the United States. With huge levels of loneliness, increasing drug use, of increasing isolation. Skyrocketing rates of suicide. And it is felt acutely when you’re running an enterprise too. So half of CEOs say that they are lonely in their roles. And when you’re lonely, you know, the new research is that if you’re experiencing extreme loneliness, it has the same health impact as smoking 15 cigarets a day. It’s greater than obesity as a driver of health issues. And so, you know, when you’re talking about financial risk and feeling kind of imposter and in loneliness, you’re doing this hard thing by yourself. You know, those are the things you need to realize is kind of root causes driving a lot of these mental health problems. You ask me to actually say, well, what do we do about it? I just told you, like, what’s going on? It’s problems. But I guess we could go to what to do about it.

Henry Kaestner: Well, one of the things that you come up with in the reader that I think that points towards a potential solution, uh, in each one of these, weekend readers, you take these 4 or 5 long form articles, you do an extract there along a common theme. But then the thing that I tend to like the most is the postscript. You kind of assimilate it all at the end. And I’m reading from your postscript now, we don’t like talking about depression. It is by definition not fun. And though in the past few decades we’ve learned a lot about brain chemistry role in mental health, and we still haven’t yet overcome the nagging misconception that people who are depressed are somehow weaker than others. Now this is me adding in, and no entrepreneur wants to be thought of as being weaker, right? So you don’t want to admit defeat. You’re supposed to lead. Everybody’s looking at you. And so the concept of admitting to this depression is against what you think will help you to succeed. Okay, so it would seem that a big step towards addressing this issue is admitting that it’s an issue in real time. But, you know, so many of us are taught to never talk about it. Does that compound the problem?

Maxwell Anderson: Yeah, there’s a group of friends here in Denver. We get together once a month for breakfast, and we talk about our lives and pray for each other. And I told them I was recording with you guys today and about this topic, and they said, does that does that make you feel nervous? And I said, yeah, a little bit, because there is a strong strain of my history that has kind of thrived on, you know, liking people to feel like I’m successful. And I don’t like to think that I’ve traded on that. But I think in some ways I have in my life sort of admit that I have this weakness or I struggled in this way. It’s hard, I think a little bit it must feel a little bit like what it’s like for an alcoholic, where a big part of the recovery process I’ve had, friends were going through the 12 steps, is just admitting the struggle that God’s allowed you to deal with, and by admitting it and being upfront about it, instead of hiding in the shadows, you take away some of the power has over you, because there’s not only there’s depression itself in it, I think there’s another layer on it, at least for me. But I think probably for many Christians of shame in this kind of voice, talking in your head, saying, well, if I’m really believing, if I’m really trust in Jesus, if I’m asking the spirit to really fill me, shouldn’t I be experiencing a joyful spiritual life? Shouldn’t that fruit be evident? And if I’m not feeling that, is it because my faith is weak? And you know, I think there’s some of that I still wrestle with and think that shouldn’t that be true? But I think there’s another part of it that is kind of chemical. Uh, another part of it that is circumstantial, and it’s in God, in his good wisdom, has allowed me and others to experience and wrestle through it as a way. Ultimately, I think, of showing us our need for him and our inability to run our own lives. But for me, it’s been a journey.

Joseph Honescko: Max brings some incredible insights from his own experience as an entrepreneur, battling anxiety and depression, and also from his research. I mean, those numbers are staggering. 50% of entrepreneurs struggle with mental health. So in this next section, we’re going to build on what Max shared by hearing from pastor and trauma chaplain Steve Cuss, whose book Managing Leadership Anxiety provides some great frameworks around how entrepreneurs can identify the sources of their anxiety and find ways to become free of it. Here’s what Steve has to say.

Steve Cuss: Most entrepreneurs and most parents deal with a type of anxiety called chronic anxiety. That’s the field that I’m trained in. And what’s fascinating about chronic anxiety is it’s generated by false belief. False need is generated by assumptions. So when Jesus is in the Garden of Gethsemane, he’s not anxious because he has false assumptions. He’s anxious because he’s facing a painful death. People in the slums of Kenya, their anxiety. They do have chronic anxiety, but that underlying trauma. It has its own rulebook. But entrepreneurs, parents, any staff environment? Thanksgiving dinner. Any. Anytime you watch a TV show. Like I get chronically anxious watching Gilmore Girls with my daughter because it just drives me crazy. But chronic anxiety is based on assumptions. So if you think about, for example, my need to be impressive, my need to always get it right. Uh, my need to never make a mistake to win over everybody I meet. These would be assumptions. These would be false beliefs. And what’s fascinating about chronic anxiety is the only kind of anxiety that’s contagious. That’s why I wrote yours and theirs. Because in any, any group Thanksgiving dinner, staff meeting, you know, startup venture capital conversation, whatever. Because I have assumptions and you have assumptions because I have expectations and you have expectations. Anytime you break my expectations, I get what’s clinically called chronically anxious. But really, chronic anxiety isn’t so much worry and fear. That’s a misunderstanding. It’s it’s reactivity. So the question is what makes you reactive? That’s how you know you’re chronically anxious. And so entrepreneurs workplace home place raising kids. This is the garden variety anxiety that everyone faces. I first learned about it when I was a trauma chaplain. It’s changed my life. And as a pastor, that’s my vocation. I’m primarily a pastor. It was phenomenal to me when I discovered that chronic anxiety is based on false belief. Then, in every real and visceral way, the gospel helps us lower our anxiety. So yeah, that’s kind of it in a nutshell, and I’m happy to chase it wherever you’d like to go from there.

Henry Kaestner: Well, I mean, there’s so many different places. Um, how do you process as an entrepreneur these feelings that you’re having and what’s a framework to be able to kind of deconstruct them in the moment? Because you just said, it’s not that you’re afraid of something, you’re reacting to something. Give us a framework. As an entrepreneur, when we feel these waves come on to help us process real time.

Steve Cuss: A great question. You know, let’s say you’re an entrepreneur. You need to raise some money. You’re having a meeting with a bunch of venture capitalists. That kind of anxiety is generally healthy. That would be more of a public speaking anxiety, kind of an adrenaline that you really need to do a good job. But then there’s this chronic anxiety and it has five markers to it, five indicators, uh, control when you have to be in control. So the difference between that good energy of presenting well versus the need to control every outcome in that venture capital meeting. So one’s control, one’s perfection, the need to always do it perfectly. One is always knowing the answer when someone has a question. The fourth one is always being there for others when they’re hurting. And the fifth one is people’s approval. So it’s control. Perfection. Having the answer, being there for others and people’s approval. Every human being is triggered when we don’t get up to any of these five. So if an entrepreneur is in that venture capital meeting, or maybe they’re doing a job interview and trying to recruit someone or whatever the situation is, you know, a lot of anxiety is actually healthy. But when it crosses into needing to do it perfectly, you never get that false need. That’s what makes you anxious is instead of saying, you know what, I did that well, or instead of saying, for example, in entrepreneur world, you know, you take a perfectionist, they believe the lie that they’re supposed to get it perfectly right every time, the first time, even though they’ve never done it before. So they don’t get that A+. And then what happens next is they end up replaying in their mind. They beat themselves up, their inner critic moves into condemnation, and they can’t rest. They can’t mentally rest, and then they can’t be present to their loved ones because they’re busy trying to attain that perfection. They’ll never get another one just to flesh out, because this is one of mind being there for others. If somebody, somewhere is hurting, I have this compulsion to rush in and I think it’s about that person. I even honestly, guys even blame Jesus for it. I even claim that Jesus says, you know, love your neighbor, carry one another’s burdens. But what I’m not aware of is it’s actually my incessant need to be needed that’s being like driven rather than God actually leading me by God’s Spirit to help someone. So just to get theological for you guys. The reason we get anxious is we actually reach into God’s job and we start doing God’s job for God so that control, perfection, having. The answer. These five are actually the five core attributes of God. So anytime we try to cross from human to God, we get anxious.

William Norvell: Hmm. I’m curious if you’re leading an organization right now, what’s the first couple of questions or maybe first couple of actions that you would say, hey, you need to understand this, or you need to ask yourself these questions. Where would you start if someone had, you know, hey, I’m taking this seriously, but, you know, I’ve only got half an hour. Really think through that.

Steve Cuss: Great question.

William Norvell: Where do I start?

Steve Cuss: Yep. And one of the challenges of entrepreneurial ism is the pressure to do do do and be efficient. And unfortunately this is not an efficient path. So if you only have half an hour I would actually say don’t open the door to this. But if you have half an hour a week, then I’d say, yeah, absolutely, open the door. This kind of thinking and approach takes several months. But step one is learn to notice when you are spreading anxiety. That’s it. What are the signs that you are anxious when maybe you don’t even know you’re anxious? The simplest way to know you’re anxious is to ask somebody who cares about you, how they know you’re anxious before you do. And this is especially true for entrepreneurial, mission driven, others focused leaders. We are usually the last in the room to know when we’re not well. But anxiety is like poker. We all have tells and so others can see it before us. By the time a child is nine, they can tell you your anxiety tells. So that’s number one. Number two is deeper is can you commit to not spreading anxiety any more? And not catching it when others are spreading it. If chronic anxiety is contagious, then if the leader can be the one to say, you know what? As much as it’s upon me, I’m going to try to not spread it, and I’m going to try to not catch it. So what that looks like is usually I can tell I’m anxious because I’m blaming someone else. I’m irritated. But in systems theory, systems theory has zero interest in blame. That’s another thing I love about it, because I think that lines up with the gospel. Paul says one of the fruits of the spirit is self-control. System theory says your job is to control yourself. Don’t worry about other people. And so typically when I’m doing this stuff, people are always saying, oh, which gym was zero? Which Sally was listening? But really what happens is if your anxiety gets into a pattern, then what are you doing that’s contributing to the pattern? So, you know, I’m always on time. I really value promptness and it’ll be a simple pattern. Maybe John is always late and I tend to blame John, but I’m contributing to the problem because I’m not confronting him. So the problem is John is late. My attempted solution is act like he’s not late. And then five times being late in a row, I’m now having an anger fantasy about John. I’m thinking about firing John. But I’ve never had the courage to just sit down and say, John, here’s the deal. And so if I take responsibility for myself, rather than blaming John and say, well, what am I doing that might be contributing to John always being late? Well, here’s what I’m doing. Avoiding conflict like I always do. I love to avoid conflict. Okay. I can do difficult things because of Christ. I’m going to sit down with John. And I’ve done this a number of times with him where I’ll say, hey, there’s two problems here. Problem number one is you’re chronically late. Problem number two is I’m letting you get away with it. And I’m really sorry. I’m really sorry I’ve been letting you get away. That does not serve you unreasonably angry at you. And I don’t like that because I actually like you. I’m getting really petty. Like last time you were late, John, I counted up every minute that you wasted in the room. That’s how petty I’m getting. So here’s the deal. I’m not going to let you get away with it anymore. If you’re late again, big, terrible things are going to happen. Armageddon is going to happen. What’s that like for you, John? Like, because I’ve not been leading you. Well, that’s different than me saying, John. John, you’re the problem. So systems theory tells you to really focus on how you’re the problem. Those would be the two steps I would start with is how do I know when I’m anxious, and then how can I commit to not spreading it and catching it. And I guess that was step three. How do I break the pattern where I’m contributing and feeding into the anxiety?

Joseph Honescko: It’s so helpful to get those kinds of practical steps. Identify when you’re anxious. Commit to not spreading it and figured out how to break the pattern. It kind of reminds me of what Jon Acuff said in last week’s episode, about the broken soundtracks that play in our head. If you haven’t listened to that episode, it could be a good follow up after this one. But before you do that, we have one more segment here with psychiatrist and author Doctor Curt Thompson. He’s going to dive a little deeper into how our brains actually work, because he specializes in this really unique overlap of neuroscience and spiritual formation. Here, he’ll talk about how a deep relationship with Christ and a deep relationship with our community helps retrain our brains so that we can break the cycles of anxiety, shame, and isolation and better live out our callings with joy and peace. And if that kind of community where you’re able to do that with other people is something you’re looking for. Consider joining a faith driven entrepreneur group. There’s absolutely no cost, no catch. But these groups allow you to lock arms with other like minded brothers and sisters who are facing the same challenges you face as a faith driven entrepreneur. You can find out more at Faith Driven entrepreneur.org/groups. But in the meantime, let’s hear what Doctor Thompson has to say.

Curt Thompson: I don’t know how many entrepreneurs who are listening to this think much about emotion, but I will tell you, there’s nothing that you do that is not fueled by your emotion. There’s nothing that you set out to create that is not a function of you’re trying to regulate emotion. And if you don’t know that, then I will tell you that your emotion is going to regulate you in ways that you don’t even know that it’s doing often in ways that you don’t actually want it to, but don’t know that. But it turns out that the more you learning about the mind, the more we learn that as we talk about the mechanics, the way the mind works, it renews the very story that we’ve been living in in the gospel. That has been true from the beginning. And when I hear the word entrepreneur, I think about someone who is creating something. I think about someone who’s building something. It’s somebody who’s making stuff. And to be made in God’s image is to be first and foremost. God is a maker. And then he says, we’re going to make humans to do what we do, which is we’re going to make things and we’re going to steward them. And we want to create and curate things of great beauty and great endurance, and they give life to other people. But the Bible also tells a story in which we do not live in a neutral universe. And I think it’s fair to say that evil has no intention of allowing beauty to survive, and it will come to devour us. And it’s what it did in Genesis chapter three, and it’s what it will do with our anxiety and our depression, all these kinds of things. But we want to say that evil does not get to have the last word because of Easter and because of that. When we talk about neuroscience and spiritual formation, we’re really talking about the world that entrepreneurs occupy because of anything like what they are doing in creating things. You are creating the goodness and beauty in the world that God has predestined for you to create from before the foundation of the world.

Henry Kaestner: So I’m really intrigued there. And you touched on something. I’m wondering if you might be able to go a little deeper on when. Maybe it’s in the concept of neuroplasticity, but when you talk about us being just dead to sin, I just need a little more on that.

Curt Thompson: Well, I think it’s important to remember that the brain isn’t just some abstract thing, or just some disembodied thing, or some depersonalized organ on a stick. It’s, uh, Curt does certain things. It’s. Henry does certain things, it’s William does certain things. And we know that our minds are designed to operate in certain ways. But, you know, we would say that, you know, it doesn’t take much for us to be aware that children come out of the uterus wanting things, and then they want to make things. And by the time they’re in third grade, they worry that they’re going to make things in the wrong way. And so already their creativity and their longing starts to get like spliced together, if you will, with shame and with anxiety. And that part of us then, is afraid to create because of the mistakes that we will make. Now some kids will overcome this and they will continue to create, others will have more difficulty with this and their creativity will be buried. But you know one way, I’m not a theologian or biblical scholar, but, well, one way that I would say that the Bible characterizes sin is that sin is my proclivity to continually turn away from relationship. I will turn away from relationship and turn inward only to myself. And I do that in response to shame. And because I do that, I turn away from collaborative relationships. I turn away from being able to fully create, and I do it as a coping strategy to protect myself against the wounds that I’ve experienced. And then that very activity continues to turn me further and further and further away from people, and the further away from relationship I go, the more isolated I become, the more isolated become, the more asphyxiating it becomes to my soul. And so we become literally quite dead to God’s presence. And then God comes in Jesus, and it is in our willing to take the risk to believe that Jesus really does love me enough, that I’m going to take the risk to take at least the first step out of the boat, just like Peter. And then the second step and the third step. And there can be plenty of times I’m going to look around and be reminded of the parts of me that still don’t believe that, still or afraid. Only to find that Jesus hasn’t left the room, that Jesus is not leaving me alone.

William Norvell: It’s fascinating. And what I want to dive into off of that is we spend a decent amount of time on the podcast talking about the potential lonely journey of entrepreneurship. Right? And I use the word potential because I think that’s something we’ve been crafting lately, is that it’s a lonely journey only if you allow it to be at some level. Of course, Jesus can walk with us, community can walk with us. That’s why our ministry exists, is to help people find people for that journey. So I wonder how you would speak to an entrepreneur who’s either on the journey or setting out on the journey to say, here’s some realities, but here’s a gift of longing for beauty. And try to hold those.

Curt Thompson: Mhm. It’s a great question. You know in our practice we run what we call confessional communities. And I talk about this in the book. And one of the pillars that we described in these groups is that we say repeatedly over and over that we are a people of great longing, longing for beauty and goodness in all kinds of explicit domains of our life. And we are a people of great grief. That’s what it means to be human. We are both of those things. And we will be both of those things until we’re dead. But life and the creative act, or being an entrepreneur takes place in the presence of both of these. Because right in between and we hear Jesus words, it says, I tell you these things, so that in me you will have peace. Because in this world you will have tribulation. But be of good cheer, for I’ve overcome the world. This sense that we were made with a longing. He’s put eternity in our hearts, this longing for beauty and goodness, that we can name the things about the work that we do, that are bring us joy, that are good and are beautiful. And at the same time, we have to be able to simultaneously name the parts of our lives where we experience grief, where it’s difficult. But what’s most important about both of these things is that I am in a community in which we are naming all of these things together. The felt sense of overwhelm, sadness, rage, all the things that I feel. It is transformed by presence. It is transformed by my being more deeply known, by my brain, knowing that it is not alone in this. And I can move toward a posture of gratitude. I can move toward a posture of thanks. I move toward posture of of hope and imagined creativity, even in the face of things that are hard. We may say, well, Curt, like, that’s not the way these things work. Like, I’ve got a board that I’ve got to answer to and I got this, I got that. And so all the things and I would say, if we don’t have someone whose job it is to look after us, to be present for us in embodied ways, not in the abstract, we will not be able to continue to do the work that we are made to do, because we’re made to do it in the presence of others.

Joseph Honescko: We were made to live life in the presence of others. What a way to close out this awesome episode! If you found any of this helpful, pass it along to others who might need to hear it. You can also help us out by rating, reviewing, and following the show. We publish episodes every Tuesday, and we hope that you continue to lean in with us. And if you want to learn more about organization, check out our website at Faith Driven entrepreneur.org or follow us on LinkedIn, Facebook or Instagram. You’ll find tons of video content, group resources, and ways to be a part of a growing global movement of faith driven entrepreneurs. Thanks for listening. We’ll catch you next week.

Recent Episodes

The New Year brings new opportunities to examine our goals, to get focused both personally and professionally.

So how do we do this well? How do we establish goals that actually get done? How do we make sure those goals align with our faith? And most importantly, how do we stop ourselves when we start putting our value in the things we achieve?

In this special edition of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast, we’ll highlight conversations Rusty, Henry, and William have had with expert leaders Jon Acuff, Patrick Lencioni, and Terry Looper about what it looks like to set and accomplish the right kinds of goals.

They walk us through how to avoid the pitfalls that try to take away our focus, how to set our minds and hearts on the things that matter most, and how to ensure that we don’t allow our accomplishments to become our identities.

More from these guests

Jon Acuff:

https://www.faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/podcast-inventory/episode-159-the-surprising-solution-to-overthinking-with-jon-acuff

Patrick Lencioni:

https://www.faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/podcast-inventory/2020/4/7/patrick-lencioni

https://www.faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/podcast-inventory/episode-240-the-motive-with-patrick-lencioni

https://www.faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/working-genius

Terry Looper:
https://www.faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/podcast-inventory/episode-243-why-an-experienced-entrepreneur-and-ceo-chose-to-live-at-a-sacred-pace-with-terry-looper

Episode Transcript

Joseph Honescko: Every entrepreneur I’ve ever met is an avid goal setter. We set up OKRs or KPIs or whatever other acronym you choose to keep ourselves and our companies in check. For many of us, the new Year brings new opportunities to examine these goals to get refocused both personally and professionally. So how do we do this well? How do we establish goals that actually get done? How do we make sure those goals align with our faith? And most importantly, how do we stop ourselves when we start putting our value in the things we achieve? I know none of us struggle with that. I’m Joey Honescko, the producer of the show, and on this special episode will highlight conversations Rusty, Henry and William have had with expert leaders Jon Acuff, Patrick Lencioni and Terry Looper about what it looks like to set and accomplish the right kinds of goals. They walk us through how to avoid pitfalls that take away our focus, how to set our minds and hearts on the things that matter most, and how to ensure that we don’t allow our accomplishments to become our identities. You’re listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Let’s get into it.

Jon Acuff: Finish is, it’s all about goals. I went to the University of Memphis and commissioned a research study with a Ph.D. there named Mike Peaslee, and we looked at 900 people for six months as they worked on their goals to figure out what does it really take to finish a goal? And entrepreneurs are classic chronic starters and they’re inconsistent finishers. So that one I would say, hey, if you’re an entrepreneur and you’re like, okay, yeah, I start a lot of things, but I don’t finish them. I’d recommend to finish. Soundtracks is about how our thoughts impact our actions, which impact our results, and entrepreneurs struggle with that. Like overthinking is, I think, the most expensive thing entrepreneurs invest in without even knowing. It slows down decisions, it steals productivity, it steals creativity. And so we did another big study about, okay, how can you be deliberate about which thoughts you listen to? And what’s fascinating is even my most Type-A entrepreneur friends who are like the lay out the clothes the night before and like, measure the grams of protein they’re getting. They don’t pick their thoughts ahead of time. So very few of them go. I got a big pitch meeting coming up. Here’s the three soundtracks I went playing during that meeting. They just show up and have thoughts versus honing them. So many people, even if they’re really good at other parts of their life, take their thought life really casually. And I think it causes a lot of challenges that if they got their thoughts in order, the actions, the results would start to open up in a different way.

Rusty Rueff: Bring all this into the context of goal setting, because, you know, right now we’re sitting on top of one technology after another that’s going to help us set our goals, track our goals. You know, this ……, you know, throughout all of our lives, um, goal setting, overthinking. Or not overthinking?

Jon Acuff: No, I mean, I love goals, like I have goals around Lego sets every part of my life. I love to go, okay, well, how do I do that? Like, I have a goal right now to overlook a fence once a day. Because I caught myself, somebody would ask me to do something and I would act offended. And I was like, that’s not the spirit I want. Like, I want to be deliberate about that. Like, why am I reacting this way to people? I want to work on that. So I’m a big believer in goals. My big thing though, is like, why am I doing the goal? What am I expecting the goal to deliver me? How am I going to do it in a measured way? How am I going to be in community about the goal? You know, how do I make sure it’s not an act of perfectionism, but it’s actually something that’s sustainable. So there’s it’s like anything else in life, there’s ways you can go wrong with a goal. But for me, I feel wired for goals. And, you know, I always say like a goal is the fastest path between where you are today and where you want to be tomorrow. And so like for me, I love that and I test them. That’s the other thing. You try it for a month. If it doesn’t work, you do something else.

Rusty Rueff: There’s a lot of people who get stuck at that stage, right? They overthink their ability or their inability to set a goal.

Jon Acuff: Well here’s the problem. They go, I want to do a goal. And they brainstorm their goals, which is sometimes really difficult. They come up with 20 things. They don’t know which one is the right one. And the problem is we think there’s a perfect one and there’s not. So you go, I just got to find the right one to work on. I got to find the right. Forget it. Like find three and work on them kind of back and forth. Like it doesn’t like you don’t have to find a perfect one. So for me, I always tell people like I have one, two, three kind of big life goals going on. I have like 3 to 5 medium things, have like 7 or 10 habits you’re trying to track or tweak.

Rusty Rueff: You talk about overthinking is a sneakiest form of fear. Go into that forest. So I don’t think that everybody recognizes that paralysis that comes from analysis. You know, it’s real.

Jon Acuff: Sneaky, it is sneaky because it pretends it’s helping you be prepared. It goes, no, no, no, no, no. This is about being prepared or being prepared for being prepared. But I always say like being prepared leads to action. Overthinking leads to inaction. Like even there’s a lot of entrepreneurs right now. Listen to this. According to New York Times, 81% of people, American adults want to write a book. Guess how many do every year? Less than 1%. So 81% say they want to. Less than 1% do. And part of the reason is they almost write a book. They overthink the book. They add pressure to the book. They spin out on the book. And so that’s why it’s sneaky, because it can pretend like if I say to you like. Are you a workaholic? Most people recognize that’s not helpful. Like it doesn’t like high performance. One thing. But if I say you’re a workaholic one, people recognize that it’s bad and two, they don’t want to self-identify it. That’s the funny thing to me. When we asked 10,000 people, do you struggle with overthinking? 99.5% of people said, yes. So that’s why I think it’s a sneaky form of fear. It’s because it can pretend it’s not initially until you start to unpack it and go, wait a second, that’s what I’m doing and it’s not helpful. Hold on.

Rusty Rueff: So if 99.5% of the population overthink, so they say that they overthink. What’s that tell you about what’s going on in society?

Jon Acuff: Well, here’s the here’s the interesting thing. So 2020 was catnip for overthinking. Like we did a study in 2019 before a global pandemic, before like masks, before staying at home, before a possible recession, before the election, before civil unrest. Like all these topics that kind of threw grenades into our thought processes, like people. I read an article the other day, people are afraid of the doorbell now because they’re like, we don’t know who it is like. And the idea of what that’s doing to our faith, to our courage. So, yeah, I mean, I think the world is at a high point on overthinking because, like, we’re feeding ourselves social media, you know, we’ve lost trust in so many of our institutions. And so that’s part of why part of why I’m excited about the book is that in the middle of the pandemic, I definitely had a lot of stress like I did, you know, don’t hear me say otherwise, but I felt like I had some tools because I’d spent two years learning how to swim, and then the world got covered in water. So, like, if I didn’t know how to kind of be deliberate about my thoughts, it would have been a lot harder year. But because I had some tools that I’d spent years figuring out, I could say, oh, I recognize that.

Rusty Rueff: You’re addressing this overthinking. Is there an antidote or are there just little things that we all have to do to get past it? I mean, give some advice to the entrepreneur.

Jon Acuff: Yeah. I mean, the big thing is, I don’t think you say stop overthinking or like, you’ll never overthink again. I just don’t think that’s possible. And also, I have an amazing thinking brain. Why would I try to turn that off? It would be so much better if I just thought the things that helped me. So my big thing is, if you can worry, you can wonder if you can stand, you can soar. So the big trick there is going, okay, I have all these thoughts that I don’t want to have that aren’t helping. I’m going to replace them with thoughts that actually move me forward. You know, in a faith sense, I’m going to take these thoughts captive. I’m not going to sweep out this house completely and have it be empty, like I’m going to fill it deliberately. So that’s the main trick. As you go. I kind of teach three Rs. I say you retire, you’re broken soundtracks. Wow. This thing. Let’s make it hyper specific for entrepreneurs. The contract where you got screwed three years ago is still impacting your next contract. The worry about somebody taking advantage of your intellectual capital because somebody did, is still having a voice in the middle of this. And you go, okay, that’s a broken soundtrack. I want to retire that. I want to replace it with a new one. I’m going to come up with a new one when I get into contract situations, and I’m going to repeat that one so often it becomes as automatic as the old one. So really like those are three practical things you can do retire, replace and repeat.

Joseph Honescko: John has such a knack for making things practical, but in addition to understanding how are we can set better goals and how we can change our mindsets, we also have to consider our whys and this next segment. New York Times bestselling author Patrick Lencioni reminds us of why we should think about the why behind everything we do. When we set goals, we can ask ourselves, how are these aligned with my larger motives? Here’s Pat.

Patrick Lencioni: There are two reasons. Two motives why a person wants to become a leader and the two motives are one. I’m doing it because I’m rewards centered, and we’re all susceptible to this because we’ve all fallen into this. The other motive for being a leader is that you want to serve it’s responsibility centered. This is a burden. And when somebody makes you a leader, you get promoted to a position of management or you start a company. It is first and foremost a burden because you are now responsible for stewarding that role for the good of these people, your employees, your customers, partners and everybody else. So the right motive for being a leader is responsibility. It’s kind of heavy, and it’s really important now, with God’s help and pure intentions, that can be a wonderful thing. But if you’re doing it for your own personal economic sense. I don’t just mean financial economics, but what it does for you. You’re going to get really frustrated because I tell you what, leadership is never economically sound. You are going to give far more than you receive, which makes sense if you’re a follower of Jesus, because that’s why we’re here, is to love others. Now we all receive things, but if we think that the economics are going to play in our favor, that’s not going to make sense. And that’s why it’s so important that the world has faith driven entrepreneurs who are willing to give far more than they receive, knowing that their rewards are eternal and even that their rewards here. Now, in this day and age, in this modern time, in the in the church and in the world, being motivated in the right way is so important because to be a faith driven leader, you are going to suffer. It is. It is not a theoretical statement to say that we suffer if we’re followers of Jesus. And if people know that we’re followers of Jesus, there’s a lot who might abandon us, and we have to love them through that even as they turn away from us. And even as we get hurt by that, we can know that our motive is to love on them and to love on the people that stay with us, and to love on the customers that belong with us, and even on the ones that leave us. We can we can do that if our motives are pure. Okay. I want to talk a little bit more about the motive. We talked about the the the idea that we have to be motivated by serving others. And as Christ centered leaders, we know that that’s what he showed us. But here’s a few good ways to think about this. Because what I’ve noticed in all the things I teach about leadership and about running an organization, practical day to day things, there’s five things that reward centered leaders, self-centered leaders, including myself when I’ve been there, often abdicate. Now, it depends on who you are and what you like to do. One of the things about being reward centered is that we tend to think, I get to go to work every day and do what I feel like doing. I used to think that was really the reward I wanted, that I could go to my office and do what I felt like. Of course, if you’re a responsibility centered leaders, you do what’s necessary and what’s required. And so here’s five different things. And I’ve had leaders. I love it when they call or they write to me and they say, oh my gosh, Pat, I was 0 for five. I don’t do any of these things. And I realize now it’s because I’m reward centered, and I’m so glad the humility of them to admit that and say, I’m going to change because this can be changed. So here’s the five things you might want to ask yourself, and I’ll tell you the ones that I struggle with. The first one is a lot of leaders who are reward centered, not responsibility centered. They abdicate responsibility for having difficult conversations with others. There’s this issue, and they can see that it’s a problem. And I have to go confront them and have a difficult conversation. Now, as a follower of Jesus, we know it. Iron sharpening iron means, you know, we have to be willing to enter the danger and love somebody enough, even if it’s uncomfortable. But if you’re reward centered, you’re going to go, I don’t want to do that. And I’ve seen leaders abdicate responsibility for that. I remember once I worked with a leader, a very famous guy that you’ve probably heard of, and one of his direct reports was telling everybody around him that he was going to become the next president and chief operating officer of the company, and this guy was not at all well liked by his peers. Well. Somebody went to the CEO and said, are you going to make that guy the president and CEO? And the CEO said, no, I’m not going to do that. He goes, are you going to tell him to stop telling everybody that? He goes, no, I don’t have time and energy for that. And so many leaders don’t have the time and energy. You know, it’s just calling the guy up and saying, hey, buddy, you’re not going to be the next president. You should stop telling everybody that. It’s kind of pissing me off and something bad might happen to you if you don’t stop, right? Have a great day. We don’t have that conversation, even though it’s an act of love to say, I want to correct you in that. So if we’re reward centered, we go. That’s uncomfortable. I really don’t like doing that. It’s not fun. He could be upset. I’ll just let it go because it doesn’t bother me that much. But that’s not living our responsibility as leader. So the first one is having difficult conversations with people. And I promise that was a true story. And I’ve had it happen, that kind of thing, so many times in working with leaders. The next one is related to that, but it’s different and that’s what we have to manage our direct reports. I will tell you, I don’t like this one. Managing your direct reports just means I know what they’re working on. I’m helping them set goals. I’m available to them to coach them when they need help, and I’m following through with that. Well, I used to justify not doing this. I’m just not a very detail oriented person. And I would say, well, I hire adults and they’re good at what their jobs are and I don’t need to be on top of them and know what’s going on. And a lot of leaders will say, I don’t like to micromanage. That’s not micromanaging. It’s managing, and it’s an act of love. And so I used to be kind of lazy about that and think, that’s okay. And one day I realized, oh, that’s just because I don’t feel like doing it. So managing your direct reports and I find that this gets harder the higher people go up in an organization. No line level manager fails to do that. But many leaders, when they get hired, they just think, I don’t have to do that anymore. I’m kind of glad I don’t. So that’s one of the things that people abdicate sometimes if they’re giving in to reward center leadership, another one is building a team, doing doing team building sessions. Now, I love doing this. This is what I do for a living. So even as a reward centered leader, I would do that because it was fun. But I know some CEOs who hate that kind of stuff. So they go, I’m just not going to do it, or I’m going to farm it out to somebody else. Well, the truth is, if you’re a leader, nobody else can be responsible for building your team, just like having those hard conversations and managing your direct reports. So we have to say, whether I like this or not, I’m going to do it because it’s necessary. So building your team and doing the the interpersonal work necessary to do that is critical. Two more one is many leaders I know don’t like to repeat themselves. Repeating yourself as a leader is one of the most critical things we have to do. You know, like that old saying, like the woman who says, honey, why don’t you ever tell me you love me? And the husband says, well, I told you when we got married. I’ll let you know if it changes. Many leaders are like, I don’t like to repeat myself. I find it to be redundant. It’s a waste of time. People might think I’m stupid or that I think they’re stupid. The best leaders in the world are constantly, constantly repeating themselves, even if it’s not fun, even if people make fun of them. As a parent, I know this because my kids constantly make fun of me. Dad, if you tell me to, you know, not do that one more time. I’m like, good for them for remembering. But at work we often think, I don’t want to have to do that. Great leaders repeat themselves, and the last one is that to be a great leader means this is not sexy or interesting. That we have to run great meetings. All so many leaders I know go, oh, if it weren’t for meetings, I really love my job. But the truth of the matter is the meeting is the playing field, the stage, the classroom, the the operating room of business, of leadership, of organizations. A teacher would never say, I hate teaching in the classroom, or a surgeon would ever say, I hate the operating room. A football player would never say I hate the playing field, or an actor would never say I hate the stage. But when a leader says I hate meetings, it really is saying I don’t like what I do because that’s where we lead. That’s where we make difficult decisions. That’s where we confront people and and make decisions for our customers. And so if you’re reward centered and you don’t like running meetings, you will often abdicate it or try to avoid them as much as possible and you won’t be doing a good job. Okay, so you’re a responsibility centered leader regardless of your personal preferences. You’ve got to have difficult conversations. You’ve got to manage your direct reports. You’ve got to repeat yourself constantly. You’ve got to build your team and you’ve got to have good meetings. Those are just the five super common areas that people tend to abdicate when they fall into reward centered leadership. Now, I hope what you can do is look at those and whether you’re 0 for 5 or 4 for 5 or 5 for five, that you can constantly say to myself, I need to do this because it’s it’s necessary, regardless of whether I particularly enjoy it, because being a leader can be a very enjoyable experience. But if that’s our first reason to be a leader, then our motive is wrong in the first place.

Joseph Honescko: Our final guest on the show is Terry Looper, the author of the book A Sacred Pace. And he’s going to share some pretty radical ideas about goal setting that have been informed by his experience as a heavily driven, successful entrepreneur. In the midst of running a multibillion dollar company, Terry had a breakdown in encounter with God over 30 years ago. That has changed everything since. Today, he continues to use the gifts he and all other entrepreneurs have been given. Things like grit and drive and leadership. He’s still built incredible companies and done incredible work. But the path towards those successes has looked different. Now he submits his gifts before God. Entrust him with the outcome. And more than anything, he finds his rest and identity in Christ instead of in his own accomplishments. Here’s how he got there.

Terry Looper: I would have probably gone to my deathbed believing I loved my family and my wife and my children more than success. But as they say, you pay more attention to someone’s actions and their words. And the truth is, the priority of success was greater than my family. That’s just the simple truth. And so everything from their catch up, my jump curbs to get from a feeder to interstate highway to get to the sports event. I mean, whatever, but I’ve had to look back with the Lord’s help and therapy that, uh, success was more important to me. So I’m not saying that’s the case with all the people. Obviously it’s not. But you need to try to get real honest with yourself. And then from there, you can probably improve.

Rusty Rueff: I’m going to read a quote from your book. So you write, I understand now that at the root of my perpetual discontentment was the perpetual fear that I wasn’t good enough, that no one my parents, my business partner, my wife or daughter or anyone else could ever accept me unless I kept achieving and accumulating. I kept achieving and accumulating. Can you talk a little bit about how your relationship with Christ changed this idea that you had to constantly be proving yourself, or achieving, or accumulating or proving to others to be able to earn their love? Because somewhere in there seems like there was an identity shift that you probably didn’t want to have happen, but happen to you.

Terry Looper: Yeah, I’m the best thing that ever happened to me. I mean, it was a great lie. You know, it’s the great lie. My wife loved me and my children. It didn’t have anything to do with achievement. It literally didn’t. My parents probably had some conditional love around achievement. And that’s how I got driven, like I did. But, you know, once Christ entered my life, I mean, everything changed. Everything changed in the burnout with me, driven to get whole with his leading and help. And then I was blessed. Oh, probably about a year into my new identity and on vacation with doors. And he overwhelmed me with his love. Deep in my heart, I could probably cry right now about it. And that was 30 something years ago. He penetrated my soul and my heart of his love, and I content when I talk to a lot of men that most men have never been blessed with, that they know it in their head. But when you get it in your heart, just like a Bible verse, honestly, when you goes from your head to your heart, it changes you. And now I’m more loving and more lovable, and my identity shifts. When I feel his love to the level, I can feel it not near to the level he offers it, but to the level I can grasp it. It has changed me.

William Norvell: So a book, Four Steps to Hearing God and Aligning Yourself to his will. We’re going to get to him. Walk us through. What are the four steps from your life’s journey that help us hear more from God? Everybody wants to do that. I’m ready.

Terry Looper: Well, I say, well, I laid them out the steps. It’s more of a homogeneous process. It’s not the only process by any means. Even my best friend has somewhat of a different approach. But the concept is still very, very important, very valid. So in my steps, the first one is consulting your friend Jesus. And I said that because I developed best I could tell a friendship to allow. He ask in John 15:15 to be your friend says he’s your friend. So I said, okay, I want to be your friend. And so I would consult him in business deals or consulting on management style management issues. But the process of these four steps, the key is to start praying and start discerning, trying to discern what Christ and the Lord wants for you. And that’s what I called consulting my friend Jesus. And he’s a great friend. The second one is gathering the facts just like you do due diligence on a project or business deal. That one’s pretty definable, with a couple of exceptions, along with you doing pro con list. Another thing I realized is a lot of people think their opinions are a fact. So as you’re praying and consulting your friend, he starts revealing the truth to you. Some around your opinions aren’t facts. The other thing I had a tendency to do around manipulation or whatever it was when I’d hear a fact that it didn’t like that didn’t get me what I wanted, I would discount it. And when I hear a fact that really elevated some good news about what I wanted, I would give it more weight. And so through prayer, I started having to start saying, okay, no, I got to give everything weight. I got to seek the truth because the truth will set me free. And those are a couple examples of how to seek the facts other than the ordinary way. The third was watching for circumstances and thereby says, well, what’s that mean? I mean, we’ve got a thousand circumstances. Well, if you’re really trying to seek God’s. Will, I think Psalm 37 four which says, delight in the Lord. Give you the desires of your heart. I believe if you’re going to be trying to do his will, I think that’s delighting in the Lord. So I think he’ll show you in your heart what circumstances really matter and the timing of it all. And then the fourth step. I got a chapter on each one of these in the book. So obviously we’re going fast here. But the fourth step is what I coined way back getting neutral. And it’s somewhat similar to obedience surrender, whatever. But for some reason the non-religious term registers a lot better with people of getting neutral, where it really means I want God’s will more than my own, and you got to get it from your head to your heart or doesn’t work. And, uh, George Mueller, a great missionary back in the 1800s, has six step process of discerning God’s will. But he said 90%. And I can attest to this. 90% is when you finally, finally, finally want God’s will more than your own. So in that process, when you finally, finally really want, it’s convinced you jump off the cliff without knowing what is over the cliff. Then he would reveal to me in my soul and in my heart and in my gut, as I call it, his will. I would get a peace that was beyond understanding. It was very convicting. It was usually scary because he wants me to become more whole, so it’s usually not what I want at the moment because I want easy street, I want quick answers, quick success, whatever. But as you remember, Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane said to the Lord, I don’t want to go to the cross for humankind, but I will do your will. So he stayed neutral. He was always neutral, right? The bigger the decision. The more weeks it takes me to get neutral. So it’s a simple process, but it is not easy. It is painful to give up on what you really think you want and what’s best.

William Norvell: Um, I believe that I’m hearing that. And I heard this great quote years ago that said, you know, there’s no greater job in the world for a workaholic than ministry, because you can always justify more and more, well, somebody is in trouble. I feel like that can really be applied to faith driven entrepreneurship. So many faith driven entrepreneurs feel they’ve been called feel that God has pushed them on this journey. And a lot, myself, we have signs and partners show up out of nowhere and into my mindset. I mean, how do you think about being neutral to God? Well, how do you separate God’s calling and become neutral to, you know, a business that you feel like you have been given to steward and then obviously a family that you’ve been going to steward and then other responsibilities in the community and your church. And I’m curious how the sacred pace framework helped you think about those roles.

Terry Looper: Well, obviously, prayer, I mean, it’s a journey, you know, it’s a journey still for me today. But prayer, obviously, whatever boundaries. I put several boundaries in the book to help. And I believe I’ve been blessed now to believe in my soul that God cares more about my soul than my ministry. If he gets my soul right, my ministry will soar. I tell a lot of ministry leaders that he cares a lot more about my soul, because then he can work in me and through me if my soul is bruised or clogged up. Uh, I have an image of my soul, and heart is like a conduit pipe. And the greater the faith, the wider the diameter. But within there I got dysfunction and I got sin. So the wider the pipe, I can get it with his leading. And then less sin and less dysfunction in my business, I believe truly long term will be actually better. I will make more money. I will be a better leader. I’ll be a better manager if it works. I’m telling you, I’ve got 33 years of proof and it just works with these really tight boundaries about my hours and other convictions.

William Norvell: That’s good. could you go into that a little bit? You know, and I know, you know, we’re a one size fits one community here. You know, no one’s life is identical to someone else’s life, but it’s always still great to just hear once again, you you ran a $6 billion revenue company. And it’s always encouraging to hear somebody say, you know, like, this is how it actually worked. And God still showed up because I’m in the thick of it. I’m the young entrepreneur here, and I’m like, that sounds great. But when did you actually put that into practice? Were you the chairman by then? You know, let’s get them out of our mind. Wants to say, but I’m curious.

Terry Looper: Well, I was the founder and principal and I put up all the money, which wasn’t that much money in today’s terms, but it was, you know, a significant portion of mine, I’ll say that. But in doing that, I was absolutely not willing to go back to my old ways. I had succeeded prior to that, but I absolutely was willing to forego success versus a life of a relationship with my Lord and my wife, finally, and my kids finally he had convicted me of that. So in order to start my own company with my own money, and I’ve never started my own company. He convicted me to start it with a maximum 40 hours a week and a completely trusting. I said, well, I don’t know, one entrepreneur that started a business then or since that 40 hours a week. He said, well, in essence, you trust me or you don’t. And I jumped off that cliff and I said, all right. I really believe you can make it successful 30 hours a week, 40 I can handle. And no, I can still have time for my family. And the other thing he convinced me of is not to have a false god of metric goals. So we’ve never had metric goals. And we became the largest private company in Houston based on revenue. I think maybe 15 years into the company, it would never have been any metric goals. You know, Jesus, I don’t think had any and I don’t think he disciples had any. And, you know, they had some pretty good results.

William Norvell: Okay, I got to go one more there deeper because I’m setting my annual goals right now. Like, you really mean you led this [….] You showed up with the all hands mean. You’re like, we’re just. We’re just going to work our best. Hey, that sounds awesome. I just want to double click on that.

Terry Looper: Yeah. And some of our guys have goals. Metric goals I said. You know, that’s okay. But I don’t believe in them. I think actually they players if I give them a goal. I think it short changes them in the key players. It doesn’t matter you know. So I think they perform better without me overlaying them. My metric goals.

Rusty Rueff: It’s fascinating. I’m just kind of blown away that the disciples didn’t have KPIs. I thought everybody had KPIs.

Terry Looper: I know you think about it. And they really had some pretty good results, you know, kind of set the world on its ear.

Henry Kaestner: So I’m struck, as I listen to this about the back to the KPIs and the OKRs and you coming out of this experience with a sense that you didn’t need to have goals and trying to think about the production and what people like Paul went through, I mean, the shipwrecks and the imprisonments and all those things. And must have been wrestling with John Wooden’s teaching and definition of success. You know, he kind of turned the concept, the success on its head a little bit. I’m wondering what that mean for fate driven entrepreneurs and just kind of mash up of all the different things we’ve been talking about. And I think that one of the truths it’s impacting me is that the fear of God is the beginning of all wisdom, the knowledge of God, the pursuit of him. When we do that, everything else flows from that. So how do you get a guy like Paul, who’s shipwrecked that many times and went through all the different challenges he he had, and be able to have God use him so magnificently, or you at […..] or any of us, it seems that it all starts from the right view of God. If we have an encounter with the living God. And endeavor to understand or come to understand the depths to which he loves us and what he’s done for us. Then that provides us with this nuclear source of energy that transcends any KPIs. It makes a mockery of just what we might otherwise expect from ourselves. And we just do it just naturally, because we’ve had an encounter with the living God and it’s gone from intellectual to this heart level. And with that comes peace. With that clearly comes success in your case. But with it comes peace. But my sense is that for fear of not first listening to this and trying to figure out where some of the things to take away from Terry’s story, well, number one is, gosh, Terry seems to really have endeavored to no guide since the age of 36. Am I on the same type of quest? And what is my encounter with the living God? Tell me about pace, my motives. How I manage, how I lead. What is important? What is not. You mentioned before, and I think that you spoke to two of these, which are boundaries, one of which is not to be laboring under these kind of these goals that may be arbitrarily set or not. And you also talked about the 40 hour workweek. Can you just talk about what some of those other boundaries might be?

Terry Looper: Sure. One is, um, this one probably, I tell people, is probably the best tip in the whole blooming book is when somebody asks you to do something, wait till tomorrow to give an answer. When they first ask me. Uh, either have a reaction of pride or people pleasing or being wanted, whatever. And if I’ll just wait till tomorrow. The objectivity is incredible of how busy I am. Is it really aligned with my purposes? Hey, maybe what my wife or significant other says, uh, about it. You can actually come up with a objective answer and give a yes or no. That’s been a huge blessing to me. And when I deviate, I’m usually sorry that I deviated. Another is I always come up with ideas like, oh, entrepreneurs, it’s endless. So when one is going to really impact my employees or my company or pocketbook or the family, I park it for a week and I don’t even pray about it. I just try to park it and kind of forget about it. And a week later, I never surveyed it really, but on average, I’d say 80% of them were bad ideas. A week later, one week. And God’s answers in his program were always very slow in our eyes. So one week is not going to cause a problem, even if it’s God’s calling. He will honor the fact that you’re just trying to lift it up for one week and come back and see. I’m amazed at how often they’re bad ideas and I didn’t drive my employees crazy or my wife. That’s another huge one. And then when I’ve had a life changing event of selling the division, we sold several divisions. Over the years, I’ve learned that I can’t trust myself, that my pride gets in the way, and I need to wait one year before I invest any of that money or buy anything. So those are three significant ones that really, really work hard and have been huge blessings to me. And as a sidebar, there was a not necessary boundary, but I saw a video the other day, about 11 minutes long, that I realized what we do here is what they had proven worked in the business world is if you love your employees first, you love your customers second, and you love making money. Third, you will smoke the companies that put making money first. They had a study of S&P companies that were similar competitors, and they did a study over like ten years. And the ones that loved employees first, loved the customer second and put money last, that they had tremendously better results than the ones that put money first. So that’s one of my messages.

Joseph Honescko: Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. We’ve got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms, and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There’s no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at Faith Driven entrepreneur.org.

Recent Episodes

Entrepreneurs build things. We create. Innovate.

We follow in God’s footsteps by forming new things.

But, how often do we think about our own formation? How our habits and our work are shaping us into becoming certain kinds of people?

This week on the show, Rusty talks with Jeff Haanen, the founder and former executive director of the Denver Institute of Faith and Work and the author of the recently released book: “Working From the Inside Out: A Brief Guide to Inner Work That Transforms Our Outer World.”

As a veteran of the movement, Jeff understands the unique place entrepreneurs fit within it. While most Christians struggle to find meaning and purpose in their work, entrepreneurs face the opposite problem. We often put too much emphasis on what we do and root our whole identity in it.

So what would it look like for us to be formed by something larger than our businesses? How can our identity in Christ empower us to better live out our call to create?

We unpack these questions in more in this episode of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Podcast.

Get the book: https://www.ivpress.com/working-from-the-inside-out

Learn more about Faith Driven Entrepreneur: https://www.faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/

Podcast episode #64: https://www.faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/podcast-inventory/2019/7/9/god-of-the-second-shift-jeff-haanen

Episode Transcript

Joseph Honescko: Entrepreneurs are builders. We create. We innovate. We follow in God’s footsteps by forming new things. But how often do we think about our own formation? How our habits and our work are shaping us into certain kinds of people? This week on the show, Rusty talks with Jeff Haanen, the founder and former CEO of the Denver Institute of Faith and Work and the author of the recently released book Working from the Inside Out A Brief Guide to Inner Work That Transforms Our Outer World. As a veteran of the faith and work movement. Jeff understands the unique place entrepreneurs fit within it. While most Christians struggle to find meaning and purpose in their work, entrepreneurs face the opposite problem. We often put too much emphasis on what we do and root our whole identity in it. For him, there was something in the way he thought about work that changed who he became.

Jeff Haanen: I realized that I wasn’t just forming my work. Work was forming me. And so I had to ask the question of who am I become in that context?

Joseph Honescko: So what would it look like for us to be formed by something larger than our businesses? How can our identity and Christ empower us to better live out our call to create? We unpack these questions and more in this episode of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Let’s get into it.

Rusty Rueff: So it’s rusty. And I’m here by myself today. My two wonderful amigos, both Henry and William are off. And we are very lucky because we have Jeff with us. He was here a long time ago, Episode 64, in fact. So if you want the Prelude today’s podcast, you can go back to episode 64. But today we welcome Jeff back in. And Jeff, thank you for being here. We appreciate your time.

Jeff Haanen: Yeah, thanks for having me, Rusty. Looking forward to it.

Rusty Rueff: So way back when, when we talked, you were at the Denver Institute of Faith and Work. You’d been writing a lot of different things. You wrote one of my favorite articles that showed up in Christianity today called God of the Second Show. But now you’re you’re off doing other things and you’re continuing on in this mission of working in the integration of faith at work. And so talk to us about what you’re doing right now. And and you’ve got a new book that’s out, which I’m really excited about called Working From the Inside Out. But bring us up to date with what you’re doing and then feel very free to give us a little summary of your new book.

Jeff Haanen: Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, So I stepped down from my role last year, this time as the director at the Denver Institute for Faith and Work. And there’s much more competent leadership in that organization, and they’re doing great. So we could do another podcast about thinking about transitions, because at some point, all of us are going to lay down our leadership. We have to think about what does it look like to be in a season of taking up and laying down? And I was in a season of lying down and God was in that process. So that was last year. This time was my last day at Denver Institute, took a little bit of sabbatical rest, finished this book, which I’ll come back to. And since then I’m actually it’s really hard to describe what I do other than maybe you could say an entrepreneur for hire. So I am building a fun project at my church and training future Anglican ministers. I’m doing some small business operations with my friend Bob Larkin at Treatment Technology, which is a chemical distribution company. I’m also working with a guy named Brett Smith at the Life Center at Miami University on Faith in Entrepreneurship in Higher Education. So we’re doing some work on the higher ed piece of faith and entrepreneurship. So I’m doing a handful of things right now. The short of it is I’m just a building stuff. I love ideas, I love people, and I love entrepreneurship. I love building things. And so I’m doing that in a few different fronts right now. And then to your second part of your question about the book. So the book is called Working from the Inside Out. I finished it actually after I finished Denver Institute, but it’s on some of the things that I’ve learned the process and as the title might suggest, it really is not only about does our work matter? Yes, I think we’ve heard that. Can our work have a positive impact in the world? Absolutely. But the question I really the last five years have been asking more is not only what impact am I having, but who am I becoming? So that was the question that I wanted to address. Working from the inside out is what is transformation look like from the inside out, from our into your life to our exterior life, to our civic life.

Rusty Rueff: This idea of what you’re being or who you’re being while you’re doing is something I think we all, you know, struggle with and we all try to pursue in some form, either through invitation or situation. And we’re invited all the time, you know, to be doing that introspection and examining ourselves and trying to figure it out. That is our being and our doing. Integris And the same and I want to get more into the book because there’s a lot of meat there that people can really dive into and get a lot of wisdom from. So we’re dedicated entrepreneurs. We talk about a lot the unique challenges they face and compared to other Christian workers and how entrepreneurship might have different pressures. And one of the things you talk about in the book is how most churchgoers are looking for meaning in their work. But for the entrepreneurs we serve, the struggle actually can sometimes be that they place too much meaning in their work.

Jeff Haanen: Yeah.

Rusty Rueff: Right. That it becomes the all be it. And I certainly see a lot of times work almost becomes an idol.

Jeff Haanen: Yeah. And maybe I’ll just respond to that will share a little bit of my own story if it’s okay. Rusty.

Rusty Rueff: Sure, Absolutely.

Jeff Haanen: My own entrepreneurial story. So I was working at a Christian school, but I came home evenings for really months, almost up to a year, imagining an organization that would apply the gospel to the world’s industries. And so, I mean, one night I remember coming home from a Christian school that I was working at, and my wife had rearranged our garage. She had put a desk in a computer in a space heater and pegboard up, and she’s got a little note and said, I believe in what you’re doing. You can do this. And that is exactly just the affirmation I needed. And so I launched into my own entrepreneurial venture, wanted to move something forward. So I started the organization and did branding and logos and figured out what’s going to work. We did our first event on faith and technology and one of America’s most secular cities, Boulder, Colorado, and, you know, had several wins and got some donors and events and all these good things. But it was, I would say, about five years into my journey and maybe not even that, maybe it was only like four years into my own journey, I started to notice several things about myself. I started to notice that I would come home tired, like exhausted, sometimes fall asleep an hour or two before my wife did, and not have a chance to connect with her. Sometimes I would just respond with to just very short temper with my kids and I would just have to apologize right away. And also in my work, I realized. I was changing a little bit. I when we had the big wins, we landed the donor. Or for a lot of listeners on this podcast, you land, the investor, the land, the big client, the big customer. I just felt this elation, like I was bigger than life, right? However, when things went wrong or something failed or a product failed or I was slighted. I hate being slighted. It’s just one of those things like somebody didn’t respond to me or ghosted me. I felt sometimes anger or frustration, sometimes even felt despair and sadness. And when I started to pay attention to some of these things within me as I was doing my work, I realized that I wasn’t just for me in my work, and it wasn’t just like I was making impact on the world. Work was forming me. And so I had to ask the question of who am I becoming in that context? And that is when I started the parallel journey of yes, I’m leading. Yes, I’m building, yes I’m growing. But the exterior self, the sort of the LinkedIn virtues. Right. Those were all growing. But I was concerned that I’d become somewhat thin in my interior world. And as I thought, who do I want to become when I’m old, man? I want to be filled with life and wholeness and peace. What does it look like to become that? So to loop back around to your question, Rusty, entrepreneurs have a very intense form of work. A lot of other people in different kinds of industries, they’ll think about their work as much. They don’t care about it, and their identity is not as closely affixed to their works.

Rusty Rueff: That’s right

Jeff Haanen: For entrepreneurs, it’s very, very close. But for other industries, I should say for most other industries, it’s not like that. And so the question there I think, is questions around not only who am I really becoming and growing in self-awareness and what’s sort of happening inside of me? But the question would be, how do I root my identity in something that doesn’t change? And when that’s tested, when everything goes wrong, when you shut down the startup and, you know, only six months in or whatever it might be, and you feel foolish because you thought this was going to be the great idea, it was going to change the world. And now only six months in and all falls apart, then how do you feel then? Where’s Christ? Right? I actually think those are the key moments for the faith driven entrepreneur to experience the life of God within. And so it is Maybe we’ll talk about that a little later, too. It’s in these pain points and the times of suffering that I think God opens the doors for his spirit to move inside of us.

Rusty Rueff: Yes. So you left us with and I wrote these down what you went through like some symptoms that maybe, you know, we’re not working this work thing correctly. You know, when we fall over the finish line day in and day out, so tired that we can’t pay attention to the other things and the other people in our lives that are so important when we start to get a little on the short tempered side, when the fuze is getting really, really short and we know that and we’re going to lash out. Interestingly, and I so agree with you that these high highs, these almost dopamine hits. Right. You know, that happened from you got the email back from the investor that, hey, we want to have the next call with you, you know, or you land the deal or the customer, you know, comes through that you didn’t think it was going to come through. And you get this, you know, you’re so elated that you’re walking off the ground. That may be a good thing, but it might be a bad sign. Actually. Might be a bad sign. And then the this the low lows and the anger that could come. I mean, these are all symptoms that we should be watching for.

Jeff Haanen: And let me also say on that, this is one reason why faith is so incredibly important for entrepreneurs everywhere. So my colleague Brett Smith at Miami University, he put together a paper on entrepreneurial identity. And he said one of the cool things about being a faith motivated entrepreneurs that way, and you’re in those high highs, we can hear God’s voice and he humbles us and says, You know, you’re not.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah.

Jeff Haanen: Heaven and earth wasn’t built around your thing, right? And yet when we’re at the lowest and we feel like we’re dirt and we’re nothing because everything failed, he says, You are my son and you are my daughter.

Rusty Rueff: That’s right.

Jeff Haanen: Now our identity is lifted up. And so if you think about it like a graph, the up and global high graph, the faith aspect actually stabilizes that graph. For those that don’t have that faith journey, they don’t have that same sort of a resource. And there’s some science, there’s some empirical evidence that that’s actually the case. I do think that’s important to recognize.

Rusty Rueff: And that’s really good. So in working from the inside out, you have these five guiding principles that should help all of us as we live out our faith at work. Dive into those for us and spend as much time as you want.

Jeff Haanen: Yeah. So I mean, starting with my story again, this idea of, yes, our work is going to have an impact. Yes, I want it to have an impact not only on the business but on the broader culture and have a social and cultural impact. But for me, I just had to pause and think, what’s the interior world as well? So the five principles, the first two are about the interior life. So the first is seek deep spiritual health. And the second is think theologically. And the idea behind these first two is rather than thinking about the exterior world, God is first working inside us. And this is a chance to open ourselves to awareness to the transforming power of grace, to look at some of our pain. And to really just rest on what God has done for us. And I can get more into that. The second is our habits of thought. And I think we underestimate how very secular our culture is. But we are called to see everything in light of the biblical story. And so when we think we think about everything from venture capital to M&A, everything fitting inside the biblical story is incredibly important. And God invites us to see everything, including our work and our culture endeavors inside the biblical story. So on the interior world, our emotional life, our spiritual life, as well as our intellectual life, I think those is where God does his interior, his first work. Second, the second movement. But the third principle is embrace relationships. You know that first step outwards, even when we’re little babies, as we see a parent, we have a family relationship. And frankly, in the workplace, relationships are everything for an entrepreneur. They’re everything for a healthy business. Relationships are the crux of culture. So God himself is relationship. And I write a little bit in the book about what does it look like for us to do conflict healing restorative relationships, build healthy culture, set good boundaries and limits differentiation, some of these things. The next part of our outerior life is the work itself. Create good work. That’s the fourth principle. And by that, that’s probably a message that your listeners have heard. But God himself worked for six days and rested for one, and we are made in the image of a worker. And so the work that we do, why we do it, I think really matters. And so how we steward our gifts and talents and even our pain matters, right? Building things in light of a world that will be new and light in the resurrection. All of these, I think, are incredibly important. So create good work. And then the last principle is serve others sacrificially. And this is how I talk about engaging culture rather than I don’t use a lot of language of cultural renewal, though I very much appreciative of the thinkers that have led in that area. I think the core perspective as we think about our engagement with society is sacrificial service, and that’s something that whether you are working as a trucker and you’re staying out late and you are going to make sure to get that load done and you’re going to support your family and do the job right, or whether you’re working at a foundation and you’re working on the big poverty problems in a great American city. Either one of those this idea of dying to self so that others might live, I think is really important. And those are sometimes big things and sometimes those are very small things. But the main idea of the book is working from the inside out that God is at first working on the exterior, thinks he’s actually first. I believe working in into Your life. That then translates to our exterior life and then finally does move into our civic life or our communal life.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, that’s great. And I’m so glad the, the fourth one that you tackle around creating good work that you actually talk about that openly because you know, whether it happens in Sunday school, I don’t know where it happens, but you know, we’re taught pretty early that, you know, work was the curse. You know, that’s what Adam got, you know, for not being obedient. So he now has to toil the soil. And that’s a curse. In fact, you know, Adam was working before that, right? He had plenty of things to do. I mean, he had a pretty big to do list that God gave him, you know, name all these things. Do all this, right, You know? Yes. And work was a blessing. Work was a gift. And anybody who, you know, walks around saying, you know, I feel like I’m cursed because my work and this I try to remind them, you know, just go downtown, walk around town and tell people that, you know, oh, I wish I didn’t work. And you’ll run into somebody who says, What are you talking about? I’d give anything for a job today.

Jeff Haanen: Yeah, right.

Rusty Rueff: So, yeah.

Jeff Haanen: That is a good word. Telling both sides of the biblical story. Genesis one and two. And then the fall. Right. And work is filled with thorns and thistles. There’s one guy I interviewed years ago for that article you mentioned, Jim Mullins. He’s a pastor in Arizona, and he really challenged me on even that part of what we tell him, the theology of work story. He says that oftentimes in professional communities and entrepreneurial communities, we emphasize Genesis one and the goodness of work and the people who don’t like their work or many working class communities are oftentimes more drawn to Genesis three. A work is painful. Toil is difficult right now. What Jim actually challenged me on is to say that transformation really happens when you reverse the emphasis with those groups. He says that when professionals hear that work is broken and they work towards systemic healing of those, that’s where transformation happens. And for working class communities to say your work is good, that there’s an opportunity to serve others in your community, in your family through your work, that’s the message that they oftentimes are not hearing, though there may be more common on this podcast, but they’re not hearing as much. And so I do think there’s a real opportunity for the faith driven entrepreneur to think about the message that they hear about work for themselves and what they commit to, as well as the type of message about work that’s in their companies.

Rusty Rueff: So one section in the book that particularly stood out was the text and chapters on change. And I’m always fascinated by change because I think, you know, as human beings, we’re resistant to change. But. Yes. And you point out that, you know, lots of people read books, then they get it, but then they go on with their life and life is normal. But they won’t do the hard work for change because change is difficult. And you pose this working theory that I think is worth quoting at length. So let me do so. Formation begins when an individual self identifies a problem, need or point of suffering, and then joins a high commitment community. And there’s a lot there. Take it apart for us. What do you mean with that?

Jeff Haanen: Yeah. So one day I remember getting out of the shower and seeing this gray hair pop out of my side of. I don’t know if that’s happened to you yet, Rusty, but. Oh, yeah, I know that. I’m 41. I was looking and some bags under my skin changed a little bit and I just had a hard week. And the question that I was asking is, how do we really change? Because, you know, we’ve all read books, maybe even listen to podcasts. Do we change? Maybe. But I’ve read so many darn books and I’ve become so adept at not changing or putting something in my brain and then having it fall right out the other side. I’m like the book of James. Right that says I look at that and I immediately forget what I was looking at. So I think change is a hard topic. I think it’s a really hard topic. I think we all want to think about how do we be transformed. But the reality is stuck habits, sin just challenges in our life. They just stick around and it can be really frustrating. And I actually think my view a lot of people either leave the church individually or see others that aren’t changed and they don’t come into the church because people aren’t like Christ. And I think rather than thinking about others that aren’t like Christ, I think, am I like, how do I change? So in the book I sort of I don’t have a full answer for how we change, but I have a working theory of three major parts. And the first part is what you mentioned. So I think change really begins with pain and suffering. And it it’s not like going and finding it. I think actually, if we’re willing to look at it, I think all of us have some of that pain and suffering. But so much of our life is something that we’re uncomfortable, we’re suffering. What do we do? We self-medicate, we do other things. We sort of seek pleasures, right? We go another direction. But rather than sort of looking away from it, looking at your pain and say, God, it is in the difficulty, the pain and the failure or whatever it might be, He is actually here with me right now rather than me try to change it. I sort of present it to him. And then I think the converse of that is not only looking at your pain, but doing so with a high commitment community that’s emotionally and relationally vulnerable. So I’ll take each of those step by step a little bit. So the high commitment community, what I don’t mean is something that you pop in and out of, right? Like one high commitment community that I’m a part of is my marriage. It’s it’s a very high commitment. Right. Right. The most high commitments we make are the most transformative. Talk to somebody in the Marine Corps. Ask them if they were changed by being in the Marine Corps. Right. High commitment communities definitely transform us. But we’re very reticent to make really, really high commitments. Like for years we tried to get well and we still are. Some are brave and do a nine month fellowship at [….] institute called a 50 to 80 Fellowship. But a lot say I don’t want to make that commitment. I have the time, I can do it. But it is the core commitments that we make and the people that we spend our time around that transform us. And then the converse of that is it has to be actually vulnerable. We have to choose to open up. And I think because of things like and my buddy David Bailey at [….] one would say there’s the big four emotional things are going on on the inside of all of us that we’re really reticent to open up about. Grief, fear, anger and shame are the Big four, like all of us have some of those that we’ve done something that we say not only guilty that say I did something bad. Shame is I am bad now, right? I’m afraid of something. I’m anger. Somebody did something to me. I have that core wound right there. I mention that because when you start to get into that and you have a community of people that I’m committed to, they’re not going anywhere. No matter what I tell you, they’re not going anywhere. You can be vulnerable and you choose to look at your pain. I think if I had my druthers, that’s the black soil of where God plants his great plants where things actually grow is in the weakness. His power is made perfect in weakness.

Rusty Rueff: So. Give us some advice, because here in the faith driven entrepreneur community, which, you know, we say come here for the content, stay for the community. And we have our faith driven entrepreneur groups that meet all over the world. But can large scale communities be high commitment communities? Or are we talking about, as you said, your marriage or a small group or the people that you could say anything to them and they can say anything to you without any high stakes of they’re going to lose something or gain something from you, They’re just there for you. Can it be done at scale?

Jeff Haanen: Yeah, I think so. I think so. I would say two tests for this of whether you’re in a high commitment community or not. First test would be what happens when somebody really ticks you off in that group or somebody does something that you don’t like or really offends you. Do you drop them like a bad habit or do you stick with them? Mm hmm. It’s worth thinking about because oftentimes that’s the difference between my real friends and those that are somehow useful to me. And that’s actually the second one, is at some point in your high commitment community, there should be people that can’t get you ahead. And that’s one of the, I think, challenges the Faith at Work movement is that we network where customers and investors and that’s actually fine, right? But some of those that’s one of the beauties, just in my view of having that high commitment community be there in the church or close to the church is there’s people with different sorts of lives and they can’t get you ahead. They’re just your brothers and sisters of faith with a different story. Right. I do think that’s an important one. And it’s a sort of a keep my honest check as well in terms of am I here to get something out of it or am I really here for interior growth, right, to really become whole and human? Right. So I do think, yeah, these groups can be that. Right. But most I don’t think are I think most people and this is thinking mostly about the American context. If you are in Africa and other places, I think that they get friendship better than we do. But there’s a lot of lonely people that are just working and trying to be successful and at the end of the day, feel incredibly alone. And entrepreneurs, I think, generally feel that because they’re working so hard, the sort of sheer time it takes. I mean, one person said it well is one of the key things need to do to build a good friendship is to waste time together. That’s one thing entrepreneurs have a really hard time doing is wasting time. I was hustling and building and moving things forward, right? So find some people that you can waste time together that can’t benefit you. And when they tick you off and they’re say something or they’re rude to you, you just stick with them and you keep building a friendship.

Rusty Rueff: That’s good. That’s just such good advice and why we all just don’t, you know, pick up that advice and just take it and run with it because, you know, you’re not the first one who said it and won’t be the last, but you’re articulating it in a way that says, listen, if you don’t do this, you’re missing out. Right? If you don’t do this, you know, you’re not going to grow through, you know, some of these areas that you laid out with your grief and your fear, your angers and your shame, you know, you’re not going to be able to grow through it on your own. And, you know, that’s one of the beautiful things about our faith, right? It’s not meant to be alone. It was never meant to be alone.

Jeff Haanen: That’s right. And you need physical representations when you’re vulnerable and you feel like nothing is to say, here’s your new identity. This is who you are. We are together. We are one people now in Christ. Out of two, he made one one new man as it is said in Ephesians. And I just we need people to actually say that for us to believe it. Otherwise, we’re on a never ending performance track, which I think myself include a lot of entrepreneurs can get stuck on is I am my success or my value of my thing, and it’s just not true.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. So couple more questions and we’ve got to come to a close. But you know, you use a word disintegration in the book.

Jeff Haanen: Yes.

Rusty Rueff: You want to talk about disintegration because that’s not a word that we use every day in our vocabulary.

Jeff Haanen: Yeah, well, oftentimes we talk about integrating faith in work. And I actually want to explore a little bit of the idea of disintegration. And I think that happens on a cultural level as well as in individual level. But the image I gave him was a glass. If you have a glass on the table and you knock it over and you break it, you could say that the glass has been disintegrated. The parts are disconnected from the purpose of the whole boy. And I think one of the things that we’re all longing for is not only integration, which we hear about that in the faith work, but I’ll just say something maybe like wholeness, is that my interior life, my relationships, my work, my involvement in community come from a single source and a single story, Right? And I think we live very disintegrated lives are sort of our faith life, maybe our church life, our work life, the persona we have when I’m a dad of driving kids to soccer, I just think that is a real journey for us to get more and more comfortable with who we are and our drawbacks and growing in self-awareness and who God thinks we are and actually start to believe it too. So I think we kind start disintegrated because of the fall. And I think moving to wholeness is just a part of the discipleship journey.

Rusty Rueff: So then how can entrepreneurs We can’t make it easy for them, but how can we make it? Easier. Yes. For their employees to begin to think about this, working from the inside out to find this disintegration.

Jeff Haanen: Well, yeah. And let me speak directly to the entrepreneurs that are listening right now. Being an entrepreneur, just making the business work is incredibly hard. And so there’s a lot of folks in the movement saying, you should do this and this and this too. Yeah, you should. However, just making the business work and the business model function is incredibly hard. So thank you for what you’re doing. Just thanks for trying to do something hard to really meet a need that you saw in your community and try to build something sustainable growing around that. So I should just first say that I would say one of the core things, if you’re listening to this podcast and your faith motivated entrepreneurs, take a second look at your employees and sort of who they are as whole people, their interior lives, their emotional lives, their spiritual lives, their intellectual lives. Right. Their physical lives, their work life. Of course, the relationships that are happening in the organization, connecting them to needs in the community. So they’re doing everything from volunteer days to doing, you know, company benevolence funds. There’s a ton of ideas out there. But I actually just think I write about this in the book. There are some essential questions that you can ask around. Am I investing in people’s spiritual, emotional health am I investing in their intellectual health and understanding themselves in a holistic way in terms of the biblical story? Am I investing in healthy culture in this place? Am I investing in their ability to do good work and simple things like training and really coming alongside them so that they can feel good at the end of the day that they’re going to work? And are they connected to their community? And we’re giving them the bandwidth to do good work for their community as well. So that is, I think, a lot for a company to ask. And yet all companies have one commonality, at least, is that they’re filled with people. And I think people have all of those elements that one way or another, if we don’t attend to some of these wholeness or these health issues, it does end up hurting the company. And so that’s kind of the other side. So I would say just take one step toward that inside out journey, both for yourself as well as others, and just create spaces for others to do the same.

Rusty Rueff: Last question we always ask. It’s the William Norvell’s question. If he was here, he gets to ask it. It’s the William Norvell trademarked question. What is God teaching you through His word recently? And you can define recently any way you want to. It could be this morning, it be this season, it could be this year. But what’s God teaching you in his word?

Jeff Haanen: Yeah. Right now for me, it’s John one in him was life in that life was the light of all mankind. And the theme of life has been really prescient. I find that as entrepreneurs, we’re always kind of searching and yearning and building. But I think what we really want is the […]. And I found that more and more is that sometimes when I have some sort of an unhealthy motive, what I’m really after is a sense of fullness and joy and overflowing life that God offers to each of us. So what God’s teaching me is not only to pursue life, but even maybe give one more practical thing. Life can be a decision making framework. There is a Jesuit prayer, not a prayer, but called the principle and the foundation and the end of it, at least a contemporary version that I pray regularly says I want and I choose to choose whatever leads to the deepening of God’s life within me. And I think as we’re making decisions in our family and as I work and what we were going to build and why we’re going to do it, the decision making framework for any of us can be which of these paths leads to the deepening of God’s life within me. And that doesn’t only mean up unto the right. It may be a hard decision, too, but I think that’s the goal, is to live with God forever.

Joseph Honescko: Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. We’ve got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There’s no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at faith driven entrepreneur.org.

Recent Episodes

Entrepreneurs often navigate unique challenges while holding onto their faith values, but what about those who work in unconventional spaces, like tattoo studios?

In this episode, Henry and William are joined by Sara and Rodney Carrera, the duo behind Anomaly Lifestyle Art and Tattoo in Plano, Texas. Sara handles most of the business while Rodney is

They open up about the challenges and victories of their entrepreneurial journey, their hope for the tattoo industry, and the intersection of faith, art, and business. They also discuss the controversy around tattoos in Christian circles.

Episode Transcript

Joseph Honescko: We all know God shows up in unexpected places. The Gospels are full of stories with Jesus hanging with sinners and tax collectors. He says he came to heal the sick, and he offered redemption to people who desperately needed salvation. To this day, he’s still bringing light to dark places. And faith driven entrepreneurs are called to do that same thing. We seek to fix broken industries. We want to solve the world’s greatest problems. And today’s guests, Sara and Rodney Carrera, bring brightness to a place often filled with darkness. Tattoo shops. The husband and wife team are the founders of Anomaly, a tattoo and art studio in Plano, Texas. And for the last seven years, they have faithfully lived up to their name. They’ve become an anomaly in the tattoo industry, offering a hope filled, family friendly alternative to the more rough and rugged culture that is the norm in that space. They join the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast to share the challenges they face as they seek to transform this industry and how their faith has gotten them through the ups and downs of their journey. And don’t worry, we’ll also address the controversy surrounding tattoos and the Christian faith. This is an open, honest and ongoing dialog, and we hope that regardless of which side of the controversy you fall on, you’d be open to leaning into their experience and the wisdom that they offer about being a faith driven entrepreneur. All right. Let’s get into it.

Herny Kaestner: Welcome back to the feature of National, our podcast. I’m here with William this morning. William good morning.

William Norvell: Yeah. Good morning indeed.

Herny Kaestner: This is a special edition. If you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, I say that pretty often and everyone is the special one. But this is one that, as we were talking before we went live on mic, this is a rock in your show episode a bit. There’s going to be some subject matter that some people look at and say, you know what? Because we’re talking about with two awesome tattoo artists, they’ve got an incredible ministry in doing that. Some number of people are going to say Leviticus 19:28 says we’re not to do tattoos. Okay. Some number of people, though, hopefully the vast majority will see Christ love through this couple. Their story and their ministry. In a way, they’ll be an inspiration, encouragement as they get out there in the mission field, which is the marketplace. So that’s what we’re looking to do today. And without further ado, I just want to introduce just this great couple, Sarah and Rodney Carrera. The duo behind Anomaly Lifestyle. Art. Guys, welcome to the program. Thank you for joining us.

Sarah Carrera: Thank you.

Herny Kaestner: Yeah, so let’s get right into it. Tattoos haven’t traditionally been very popular with the Christian church, and maybe you speak to that a little bit. Before we get into the broader and very magnificent picture of what you guys do.

Sarah Carrera: Okay, I feel like I can definitely speak to this. Growing up in the church and having a dad who is very much against them, that quoted Leviticus quite often kind of digging in to it myself and questioning a lot. We can talk about civil law, ceremonial law, moral laws, civil being in society behavior and punishment, ceremonial dealing with willingness to sacrifice moral laws, which is God in his character. That never changes. I think civil law is basically surround the culture of the time. And like, who was it? Why was he saying that? He was saying that to the Israelites, who were a religious group who are also a nation. There was no separation of church and state for Israel at the time. And so they were not to do as the pagan cultures around them were doing. It was very much a civil law that I feel like in our current society doesn’t necessarily pertain to us anymore because God’s people are more than just Israelites. Thank you to Jesus. You know, that’s an open door towards Gentiles as well. And so Christ came, and fulfilled all the ceremonial and moral laws. However, those moral laws to me, represent God’s character, which never changes. So for me, it’s God and His character and his morals that I am always and forever subject to. However, I don’t necessarily consider myself under that civil law of the Israelites. Back in Leviticus I look more to Jesus and kind of the freedoms that He gave us when he came and [….] did on the cross. So I think we both see it more as living under the grace of Christ and just the freedom that we have with you and especially seeing. What having tattoos ourselves, the significance, the stories behind them, how it allows us to minister to a part of our culture that not everybody gets to engage with and step into. I think if Jesus were sitting here right now, he’s at that other dinner party which was at Matthew’s house. That’s the dinner parties we’re going to. So I feel like Jesus would definitely want to come in the [….]. So that’s just kind of the basis if you’re really coming at it from a biblical standpoint.

Herny Kaestner: I think ,so that beautifully said, the freedom we have in Christ. Mm. Just an amazing thing it frees us from. So what does that even mean? The freedom we have in Christ. For me, it’s freeing us from the bondage of sin. The bondage of just the worries of the world, the deceitfulness of riches, the being conformed to the pattern of the world. It’s a freedom. And we hear in the New Testament, of course, about being free to be able to eat the different things that we want to eat. And I think that you have a thoughtful and to be very clear, they’re going to be members of the audience are going to still say, I still don’t think getting tattoos are a good idea. And other people are going to say, hopefully all people say that that was a beautiful exposition of somebody interpreting God’s love for them and the freedom that comes from that. Okay. So you alluded to this a little bit. You said, you know, I’m wrestling with my faith. And, you know, your father said, listen, tattoos are a bad idea and you’ve got this life story and maybe Rodney Why don’t we start actually with you? Tell us your story about where you got to running this business, please.

Rodney Carrera: Okay. So in my youth, I was an artist. I created a lot of artwork. I was very much in a household. That artwork was my outlet. It was a place that I went to very much just to get out of the present situation if you say. So as an early adult, I felt like, you know, I wanted to get tattoos. I was always create an art. I love the idea of telling your story in a way. When I was or early 20s is when I really met a gentleman that told me, You’re an artist, man. I can teach you how to do this stuff. He said, I’m not going to give you a job. I’m going to give you an opportunity to show some of what you do. And I had no idea what I was stepping into in this world. It was dark, I was very much looking for a team to run with. If you say I’m looking for community at that time and I think I’ve learned a lot more bad habits as well going through my early years of tattoo. So I would tend to create a lot because of the chaos in my surroundings. A lot of it felt more in the way. And just being in a place where I just had to stay afloat. You know, I was running a race with a lot of guys that I felt like, you know, I was a small fish. And again, just trying to do as much as I can, keeping doing a lot of stuff that I shouldn’t be doing. And, you know, I was finally in a place where I’d say I hit rock bottom. You know, that’s where I’d found the Lord. And when I finally felt like the race was over is when I finally understood what I was doing, even to myself is a little bit crazy. And then the say within just the last seven years, what he’s been doing in my life. I mean, in the studio, in the place of business where I’m not even doing anything but opening the doors and he’s present. You know, you can feel when people come in and they talk about it, the studio is different. It is an anomaly. It is a place where people can come in and be comfortable and not feel like there’s so much of an ego behind it or it’s not a scary place, now, it’s a different place.

William Norvell: Thank you so much for sharing. It’s amazing where Jesus finds people find us all in different spots. It’s so cool to hear and Sarah If you wouldn’t mind sharing a little bit of your story and then maybe merging that with you. That’s coming up in seven years. When did you decide to become entrepreneurs and how did God take you on that journey and maybe tell a little bit you and then move into the entrepreneurial journey a little bit.

Sarah Carrera: Sure. I think I’ve always been a worker. So was 14. I’ve had a job soon after college, got a crew down here in Dallas that still had like my corporate job and you know like 5 side hustles. I think I’ve always been like an entrepreneur and like trying new things. They fail and who cares? Try another one, you know, 20 and single with no kids, just going for it. Eventually met Rodney kind of cliche. I did meet him in a tattoo shop. I did. He gave me a tattoo. Yes, it happened. Rodney and I building relationships, coming together fast forwarding a few years. We’re married. We have two kids. I’m seeing my husband, who I have the privilege of baptizing, coming to me and being like, I can’t, Sarah, I can’t do this, you know? And it’s like we’re both wanting so desperately to grow with Jesus. So does. Really to give our kids a family and a firm foundation rooted in Christ. And my husband, the tattoo artist. And I’m doing things over here and we weren’t merging our worlds yet. And there are many times like ships passing in the night with our schedule and kids. And I asked him, Is this what you want to do to support our family? Like, is this what you’re telling me? God is gifted you? Is this what you want to do? And he was like, It is. I just don’t know what that looks like because he would come home. 1:00 2:00 in the morning some nights with just a heaviness like it would be emotionally and spiritually wear him out like he would come home and be like Sarah. Sometimes it’s so dark, I can just feel a heaviness on me as soon as I walk in the door. Like I feel like I’m all alone, like battling it out. And so through a lot of prayer and some counseling from some wise people, God put in our lives, we decided we were going to go for it. And if this is what God was going to have to do, we were going to merge our worlds. Me loving business and like being an entrepreneur and bringing imaging and going for it and him and all of his talents. And we were going to create something on our own. Obviously, we have no idea what God’s plan is going to be like. Are we going to survive? Like, are you kidding me at the tattoo shop or right now? Right. Said he’s the only artist going. So we were really fortunate and we were also very unwise. When we opened and started, we thought, Oh, we have this much money that’ll do it. Not even close. God was so gracious through his people in the church and his body of believers that contributed time, materials, prayer. I mean, we had guys and worship leaders coming over for free helping us put up drywall. I mean, it was incredible. And just praying over the place constantly that, you know, begging God and the spirit of God to rest in that place just be seeping out of the pores of the walls, that that place would be sanctified and dedicating it to him and being an anomaly, you know, where in an industry it does have a lot of. There are a lot of cliche and a lot of them are true. Like the whole sex, drugs, rock and roll vibes. It very much is like that. I’m not going to lie. And so Rodney really wanting to step out of that and having two kids and a place where like I felt comfortable walking in with our kids, you know, I remember one shot and particularly he was I was with my daughter, who was three at the time. Are you kidding me? I was so offended by the artwork on the wall, the conversations, the music that was playing, the whole environment. You know, something about when you have your little one with you, you see the world very clearly, you know, immediately for what it is. And we just knew it was something we wanted. And so we started off really slow and it was really hard. There were a lot of times we didn’t know we were going to make it. We didn’t know if we could make it. We didn’t know. God, how are you going to figure this out? Because on paper that makes no sense at all. Like if you are willing be Jehovah Jireh, please provide. And it has been a really tough road, but we have seen God be so faithful to us and with that I have to say too, it is emotional because this is like our life. He has grown us so much in the fire. You know, I feel like it’s in the fire and in the hard places that we just really fell in love with Christ. We fell in love with the ministry. We fell in love with living on others. And I think even though our pocketbooks for broken and empty our hearts would be so full at times because of the stories we get to hear and the love that we would get to share. And so almost seven years later, I see how he has completely carried us. I just see his sovereign hand over it all. And not only was he growing a business all along, he was refining and growing us, which makes kind of every down part of it. Every entrepreneur knows it’s not always like, Yay, this is so great. There are struggle in it, you know? And sometimes you’re wondering, what am I doing? Like, what are we doing? Like, is this for us? Make sense. Is this what he want from us? And I think seeing who we are as a couple and individuals and as business owners today is not who we were seven years ago. And for that, I think we are both just unbelievably grateful for his patience, his grace. And now he just has a plan that’s so much bigger than what we ever realized. So yeah, that basically is the real quick little synopsis. Several years of our lives.

Herny Kaestner: Tell us if you can please, about what that is. You come to understand God’s love for you through the context of your marriage and running a business together. How does that spill over to folks who come in the door? Because I’m making some presumptions here. I’ve actually never been a tattoo shop, but I would imagine that some number of. People are coming in and asking for a tattoo that tells something about their story. Something is meaningful to them. They’re opening up to you about things that are important in their life. What are some of the conversations that you’re invited into and just riff on that a little bit?

Sarah Carrera: I mean, I can say a quick something. I think Rodney’s probably got a lot more stories than I do. But one day, sitting on a couch as I sit next to a young girl who is waiting on her turn to get a tattoo, I just asked, Can I sit here next to you, I did some work and of course she invites me to sit down and she’s adorable and sweet. And you know, we’re talking social media because I have to do it and I don’t want to. So we’re talking all the business things. And then she just kind of starts telling me why she’s getting a tattoo. And her dad had died ten months prior. Her younger sister had committed suicide two months prior. She was coming off of pills trying to become sober and wanted to cover up all the cut marks on her arm where she had attempted multiple suicide attempts. So she just, like drops it on me. And she was so nonchalant about it. Yeah, this is what I’m doing. This is my life. And I’m. I mean, I’m a wreck. I’m completely wrecked. And so, you know, sometimes I think we had to fill the spirit out. Like, I’m bringing her the gospel. Like, right now, in this moment, am I completely turning her off like, God, what do you want me to say? And so quickly you’re like, I’m what? I’m really so, so sorry and heartbroken to hear about your pain. And I think, you know, what you’re going to do today is going to be a really cool way for you to remember this time. And I felt like that a lot. And she’s like, Well, what did you do? And I know here’s my shot, you know? And I’m like, I met Jesus. He wrecked me. he wrecked me, he change my life. He stole my heart. He came in and he took my pain. And I get to share with her, you know, in the five minutes I have her on the couch, what he has done for my life. And I think in a shop, you know, especially for me, sitting there hearing stories, people want to tell you their story. So it’s not so much I’m going to present to you all the Romans pre, you know, like it’s all relational, it’s all relational. They want to hear that you hurt, too. They want to hear that you struggle, too, but that you know the answer. You know who the answer is. And in a culture, in a world that is shifting and changing, I see a hunger in young people’s eyes that are desperate for truth in something that is solid. And so I think in little moments like that, you know, we get to share just kind of what he did for me. And then, of course, I pray after they leave that God, if that was just even a seed if it is this, seed for a moment that you would water that. But that’s like little things I get to go through. But I know Rodney probably have stories more.

Rodney Carrera: I mean, I think you said it. People want to open up and now your therapies, your therapies, you know, people jump in your chair and they want to tell you everything about their tattoo. And sometimes I’m just the ear, Sometimes I just listen. Sometimes I do get to share my story. They do ask me questions. You know, it will lead to that.

William Norvell: It’s awesome. I want to drive a little bit. I feel like you’ve hinted around it a little bit, but I’ve got two thoughts and questions. One, I’m sorry to keep doing these two partners to you, but one, I think you’ve hinted around your different environment a couple of times for music to a place that I just want to give you a little more free rein. Like, yeah. Take our listeners and what does it look like because everyone’s got a vision in their head right now. What a tattoo parlor is. I want you to give them your vision and then before I forget it, I write it down. But I also want to know that you have a very interesting lens. Potentially, every now and then we talk here about, Hey, are there certain clients that my faith wouldn’t allow me to take? Are there certain deals that I might not do? Because I feel like they’re, you know, hurtful to people or things. So in part of the welcoming to I’m thinking you might have a very unique lens or thought process. So are there certain tattoos you won’t perform and how that conversation goes? Because I think some of our entrepreneurs wrestle with some of these things all the time of how to do that. Winsomely Lovingly. So, yeah. So painting a picture environment and then maybe how a difficult conversation goes in that welcoming environment.

Sarah Carrera: So our environment definitely is kind of where I get to have some creative freedom in writing. So seven years ago in Plano, we weren’t really technically allowed to be called a tattoo shop and they weren’t comfortable with that. The city did not know what to do with that. So we were a retail store with a specialty. Use in the back is what we were at the time. So we were like, What are we going to do with all this workspace that was God cleaning way ahead of us, which is really cool. So you walk in and one, we provide a lot of tables and chairs, free Wi-Fi, free coffee and art supplies, which is just kind of different to our type because we’re in we want to be a place where everybody can come and feel welcome. So whether you’re getting a tattoo or not, but if you’re a creative or you’re an artist, you like the arts, you need to sit down somewhere quiet and put your headphones on. This is a safe place, basically, is what we’re saying. So we’ve had friends come in and take conference calls to the shop because it could be at the house and they’d be somewhere else. So that’s just kind of esthetics. We also have merch that we sell and so a lot of it is kind of faith based and I’ll try to kind of low key slide that in there, you know, like awake o sleeper and rise from the dead and I’ve got the skull and there were some four roses. They don’t know it is Ephesians 5:16 But that’s cool. So says a child of God, you know, with the Lion of Judah on the back. So we get to kind of slide it in everywhere and in every aspect. So we do have merch and read from the front. One of the coolest things I think we get to do is Rodney is definitely an artist and has art […..] watercolor, wood cutouts, oil paintings. You know, he’s been involved in City of Plano, World art, drop days and events. So we get to showcase the art and sell it. We also get to sell other local artists artwork, which is really cool because then they get to have wall space and sell their art and share their story. And we’ve met some really cool people that way. So that’s all in the front part of the shop, which is kind of open up to anybody. Anybody can come and hang in there. Anybody can be in there. All the artwork is kid and family friendly, as is the music, as is the conversation. So again, it should be somewhere with you are 19 you want a tattoo, Mom and grandma can feel comfortable coming in with you and feel respected and that there’s a sense of dignity in there in the back of the archways. And behind the counter is where all the tattooing or piercing happens. And we have done something in our studio that isn’t the norm, which is we have an open floor plan. Normally a lot of tattoo studios have like small little booths or they have their own individual rooms with doors that shut for accountability purposes for our artists and for our clientele. We are open floor. So there are stations that there are no walls at all. Now we have like the little trifold walls you can screen or you can kind of put up if somebody is getting the side of their hip tattooed and a little uncomfortable and we need a little more privacy. Yes. But it’s also so that artists can see each other. I can walk the floor and see what’s happening and have a level of accountability there from artist to client, because the truth of the matter is, things happen. Things have happened in that industry from clients and artist. I personally myself have seen a lot of women who are lonely come in and they love and just being in close proximity with a man in general. And unfortunately, have made offers. And as sad and heartbreaking as that is, it’s also why we don’t have walls, why there is accountability there and why, when artists come to work at our shop, some of them are like, What’s up? Like, why don’t I have my own space? And we have had artists not stay because they want privacy, they want that personal space because unfortunately things that they’re engaging in that aren’t and can’t be, that aren’t moral, that aren’t what we stand for. And so we don’t always get artists to stay because they come in and yeah yeah this is a little too Jesus for me. And they don’t want that. But it’s specific design and has intentionality behind it. And for those who are honest and are honoring God and their families and their wives and all those things, it isn’t a problem. And so I think just off top that open floor space and open floor plan in the back where the tattooing happen will immediately turn an artist on or off whether or not they want to be there. It’s never been a problem for our clients. Our clients have never once complained about, Oh, I don’t want everybody. How come everybody can see me get It’s not like that because everybody’s respected. And if there’s certain privacy that’s needed, I mean, we can work that out for you. But it’s never been a client who’s not liked that. It’s only been an artist. And so I feel like God kind of quickly weeds out the ones that probably aren’t going to be okay with kind of how we get down and operate.

Herny Kaestner: I have one last question for you before William goes into the way that we always end our podcast. Has there ever been a time where somebody comes in who’s clearly had some level of trouble and you talk them out of getting a tattoo?

Sarah Carrera: Rodney talks to these young guys [out of face] tattoo all the time

Rodney Carrera: Yeah, I mean. I mean, it’s it’s been a really long time. You know, I can tell you endless stories the youth again these days. Kids under, you know, even 21 years old and they want face tattoo. They want their first tattoo to be on their face. You know, they want things that, you know, I don’t even give kids tattoos on their neck, tops of the hands. I don’t do that. So I tell them that unless you don’t already look like me and this is your job or something, I’m not the guy to do that for you. And lots of them, they respect it. You know, like we had one guy kind of try to talk me into it, and I don’t know if he’d say, talk me into it. And he said, Come on, man, I’m going to be a rapper. And just, you know, good luck. But that’s still not going to be the answer, you know? And, you know, to answer your question, earlier, there was once, actually, there’s two now. But previously there was a tattoo that the lady came in specifically asking for me. I was not there at the time. I need to speak with Rodney, the owner. Okay. He’ll be back tomorrow. I showed up the next day. She showed up already was kind of a weird thing. But then she started to tell me about her tattoo. And, you know, the tattoo is very much.

Sarah Carrera: black magic.

Rodney Carrera: black ravens and a symbol that I didn’t really feel comfortable doing. And

Sarah Carrera: It’s very cultic. Yeah, black magic, like satanic pagan symbols, like very much in opposition to who we are and how and where she specifically came for able to do it, I have no idea.

Rodney Carrera: But yeah, it was very awkward and I told her I was like, Hey, you know, I don’t know that I’m the guy for this, but I’m going to look into what these symbols mean. I’m going to kind of check it out, do my own kind of research about it, because the way she is telling the story and how the layout needed to be and she was describing The Raven to be kind of a soul mate in a way. But after a week or two, I could not get myself to even put pen to paper. You know, nothing. I prayed about it. It was really heavy on me for a good time because I almost felt like, Is this what I was supposed to be doing here? You know, it’s a tattoo. You know, it’s a design. She has a story. It’s for a person. But once I saw that symbol, you know, I just. I couldn’t get behind it.

William Norvell: The still, small whisper of the spirit comes up strong when it needs to. Yeah, sometimes I can understand it. And I feel like all entrepreneurs probably had that with whether it’s a client, a deal, an employee.

Sarah Carrera: Yes yes.

William Norvell: Something that just doesn’t feel right and you can’t put words to it. If being of that with the way we loved it and our program is going back to God’s Word, which we started with. And just love to ask you both if there is a scripture that comes to mind. It could be something you thought of this morning. It could be something you’ve been meditating on your whole life. But we just love to end with God’s Word and coming back to say, Hey, how is he moving in your life today? And could that encourage our listeners?

Sarah Carrera: Okay. I guess that is something I was doing this week because I felt like just yesterday he kind of like kind of, you know, and he just kind of smacks you with some truth real quick. You know, and it’s funny because it’s about, Isaac [….] the blessing on Jacob or Esau. Usually the focus is on those three and the blessing and that and sitting there and reading about Rebecca, and I’m just like, Wow, man, she really wanted Jacob to get that, you know, like, she’s planning scheme and she’s like, Okay, how can we make this happen? You know, you’re going to get it. And I just thought that was crazy because like, God told her when she was pregnant what was going to happen? He told her who was going to get it. He told her how the younger he already laid out for her exactly what was going to happen. And yet here she is 30 years later, still trying to plot and scheme and make sure it happens. And I just felt like the spirit was saying. But how often do you do that? How often are you, Rebecca? Because it was in relation to our business and financing and me trying to how can we do this and this and this? And it’s like he’s told me, I am your provider, I will provide, This is my shop, my business. Why do you keep trying to plot and scheme so often about how to make it more successful? When I had already told you, I have got this. And sometimes I think he just needs me to be still and lie down in green pasture and let him be God instead of always trying to run ahead of him and plan and pull out. I think it needs to go when clearly he is the only reason we are so open and successful and giving it to him every single day. I think it’s hard as an entrepreneur to have that in you. The plan is to make plans and schedule and goal setting and like all the things. But ultimately at the end of it, he is the one in charge. He is the one in control because I can plan and goal set all day long. But he is Jehova Jireh. And so I just reading about Rebecca yesterday I was just like, oh, like, oh, I do plot and plan a lot and sometimes I need to take my hands off and dig deeper into the word and rest in him and I think turn to a posture of praise sometimes more often than I do, a posture of planning. And so I think for me personally, where we’re at in life and with our business, that really kind of hit home with me yesterday.

Rodney Carrera: The one thing that we’ve talked about this morning and last night, going over all of the notes, you know, it really stuck out to me, you know, being able to share my story, being able to say this is how he’s redeem me. You know, it’s easier to isolate. It’s easier to just go to work, do what I do. You know, I get hyper focused on just that the present and I will forget it and I will lose focus on all that he’s brought me out of. And, you know, I talked to the last week or two, you know, just being able to say like, I get tired of kind of telling my story in a way, you know, like I’m a mess and I am a hot mess, you know, he’s still working on that. You should never get tired of telling your story.

William Norvell: Amen.

Joseph Honescko: Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. We’ve got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There’s no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at faith driven entrepreneur.org.

Recent Episodes

Entrepreneurs are often thinking about how to build the best team. But how often do we think about the teams under our own households?

In this episode, we’re joined by Jeremy Pryor, an experienced entrepreneur who has recently co-founded the organization “Family Teams” We get into practical ways we can care for our spouses and our kids. We’ll also unpack what he calls the failed experiment of Western family and hear how he sees scripture calling us to a better way.

https://familyteams.com/

faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/podcastsurvey

Episode Transcript

Joseph Honescko: That whole work life balance thing seems to be extra complicated for those of us who are running our businesses. Some might even say it’s impossible. But what if there really is a better path forward? As entrepreneurs motivated by her faith. We know that were called to lead and love our families even more than we lead and love our businesses. Most of us understand this problem at a cognitive level, right? So why do we still struggle with it? Today’s guest, Jeremy Pryor, suggests that the problem we face is actually more deeply rooted than we might even think. He says that the entire Western family experiment has failed and that the only solution comes from recovering a biblical framework for our households. And he’s a guy who knows the ins and outs of this situation. He’s an entrepreneur, too, who has started multiple companies and put his framework into practice in 2019. He co-founded the organization Family Teams with Jefferson Bethke to help mothers and fathers lead their families well. He joins Henry, Rusty and William on this episode of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast to talk about how God’s word can become the key to a flourishing, powerful and life giving family. Let’s listen in.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Future of National, our podcast. Before we get into the role and mission in life of Jeremy Pryor and how it encouraged us to lean into family and mission and faith. I do want to have a quick public service announcement. We have gotten together and done almost 300 of these and we want to make sure that we hear back from our audience. Ours is a podcast that we hope is an instrument of reconciling the loneliness that we all feel a lot of times as entreprenuers, and that this might be something that will be used by our audience to share with others, to encourage them through the different stories that make an impact on their life. So in order to do that, we need your help. We need to hear from you about what you think works, what maybe doesn’t work. Everything is fair game. From things that you’d like to hear us do in terms of guests or themes or format, anything. But please do let us know. And you can find this survey at faith driven entrepreneur.org forward slash podcast survey all one word. So we got a friend on today, Jeremy Pryor and Jeremy and I first got to know each other 12 or 13 years ago when he was at […..] changed the way that we think about YouTube videos. But Jeremy, it’s great to see you again. And it sounds really cliche, but you don’t look like you’ve aged at all. You look great. And most importantly, over the last 12 years, God’s taught you a lot of things and you have found yourself at the intersection of faith and family and mission and just the importance of multiple generations getting together on mission and on purpose. What did you see? What needed fixing in your life and in society that caused you in this place?

Jeremy Pryor: Yeah, well, I think that one is I kind of grew up very confused about the way that family in the church just seemed like it was constantly falling apart. You know, the Western culture, we can see how much the family is in crisis, but the church seemed almost like a lagging indicator of the family dysfunction as opposed to really completely revolutionary, like leading the way that we’re so in the conversation in the church tended to be, hey, we need to do a better job. You know, man, step up, do your duty, focus on the family. And so that kind of duty based message, which cause a lot of particularly fathers and fathers that are really winning in work to, you know, at work, I got these teams really working on their it’s awesome. I feel like I’m doing what God’s called me to do. And I get home and I’m like, This just feels like something I have to do, right? That’s one way to kind of frame the way that I think a lot of particularly Christian fathers and I think mothers can to feel about the disconnect between work and their family, particularly if they find that work is really fulfilling and fitting their life. And so I grew up in the Seattle area where there was just a lot of very hyper individualism. And from that place, I spent a semester abroad in Israel and in the Middle East. I just saw a very different way of looking at family and particularly the way that they would look at family and business. What you noticed when I kept on running into in the Middle East with both Arab and Jewish fathers was that they saw business as a subset of family as opposed to, hey, I’m an individual. All of us as different family members, we’re all individuals, we’re all kind of going off doing our own thing. And then we come together and we sort of have rest recreation as a family. But then when we do productive work, it’s all outside the family. And wasn’t there not building businesses? It’s not that they’re not engaging in the wider economy. It’s really a mindset shift. They were building a household or they were building something for their family. So I started to wonder, is that just a cultural thing? Right? Is that just something that certain cultures have and something that in the West we just think of life more individually? So the way that that started to kind of coalesce in my own mind was we have a view of family that I think is best described the analogy as the nest, right? So unless there’s a place for you, go to kind of retreat and then you, you know, it resets every generation and all the chickens fly the coop, right? And then it starts over. And so in the west, we tend to have about an 80 year memory, becomes a family Most people can name with a great grandparents are, you know, we’re not super into, you know, our roots structure. Whereas in scripture you see and within like the Jewish families, for example, I was interacting with these fathers, they had a much deeper memory. And when they would go to work, they were building assets for their family and they were thinking about business and their economic activity as a subset of family. Also see the sum, something like Proverbs 31. You certainly see this in example of of Abraham and the Patriarchs. And it was weird for me to see a, a modern culture, you know, and I was interacting with a lot of startups in Israel, in Tel Aviv, and just amazed at what they were building. But they saw this totally different way of thinking, particularly, I would say, different from where I grew up in the West Coast. So that collision, so it caused me to kind of take a big step back and say, what do I believe, number one, about what kind of family to want to build? How do I want to think business in relation to my family? And does the Bible actually give us any insight as to which direction to go?

Henry Kaestner: So it’s fascinating. There are so many different places that we can take this. So one of the things that I think that you say I think is profound, but I really want to push into a bit is the way we do. Family in the West is mostly a failed experiment, and the scriptures are calling us back to a bigger and better design. Tell us a little bit more about why you feel that that individualism is a failed experiment.

Jeremy Pryor: Yeah, well.

Jeremy Pryor: We just found out recently that the United States is the number one country in the world with single parent families. So, you know, that blew my mind. [….] Research just released that recently also that about 60% now of people grow up at some point in their childhood outside the household, their biological father. This is historically very strange. Like we have to have a hypothesis for what happened to the family. Like there’s clearly a crisis. There’s something that is destroying the fabric of the family. And so when we’re looking at scripture and trying to figure out, okay, is there something we can get from scripture to help us understand what has happened? And the church, again, there’s a lot of areas in which we’re not as bad as the culture, but it does seem like we’re struggling with very similar challenges. And it does, I think, come from a hyper individualism that we’ve just decided culturally to accept that we don’t primarily live our life […] or in families or through families, but we atomized people into their individual identities and they live most of their life through those individual identities. And that is a historically strange thing to do. You know, in most times in history it has been way too dangerous to live in that way like you needed to live your life in an extended family team in order to just make sure that you could survive. And so what happened, I think in the West. Is that we have what sociologists call the assumption of stability so we could survive like our kids. They don’t have to work with our family. They don’t have to stay close to the family. They can go and explore a completely different individual life apart from the family. And they’re not going to starve to death. You know, they’re probably not going to die from the bandits come over the hill. They’re likely to actually make it. And so what happens is we move in this direction of isolation or individualism. David Brooks recently said that when Americans become wealthy, they purchase loneliness. And we’re noticing that’s happening to us. We can see the statistics. We can see the problems is creating. What I have not heard the church do is to actually diagnose the root of problem. Like what have we all agreed to? What are we capitulating? And it is because this is also again, it’s true people that believe the gospel. And so what was really surprising to me was in certain cultures, you don’t need to tell fathers to focus more on their family. We tend to diagnose the problem, as you know, we just need to get fathers to love their kids more. You know, the problem is so much deeper than that. We don’t even know what family is. And if you go all the way back to Genesis one, it’s one of thing that’s really interesting to me is that Genesis one is really God creating this world, obviously before the fall. And he has a huge project to create, to have his creation, his creatures accomplished. And so he creates human beings, he creates the first family. And he says that family be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it and rule over creation. And one of things I think it’s important to do is take a step back and say, we had that problem. We had a massive project that we needed to accomplish that would take hundreds of years, thousands of years to accomplish. What would we do? And I think we would start a business. We would start a government. We would start a nonprofit. God’s answer to that project was to create a family. And so that’s really interesting to me. Obviously, it’s a certain kind of family. If their goal is to be fruitful, multiply, fill, subdue and rule. This family has to work together to accomplish that mission. It’s not a mission that could be accomplished in one generation. So it’s a multi-generational family. And so the way that I think about the biblical blueprint, a family is a multi-generational team on mission. It’s to take on the responsibility that God’s given us as individuals, but as families. And so then you see that the next part of the story is when it starts to become unveiled, is the people who are interacting with the Lord are these multi-generational families. That’s what you have, you know, in Adam and Eve and Noah and Abraham and all the way through Scripture and David’s family. And so each of these iterations of family, these different family teams, there are given these missions and God is interacting with them over the generations. We don’t believe that anymore in the West. We don’t believe that in the church. What we really think is that the family is a springboard for individual success. And so a good family and I was talking to a leader of a family ministry and I you know, we were talking about this and I said I said, in the West, our definition of family success is sort of springboard for individual success. If your kids launch out and are successful and restart as individuals and we’re like, bam, that is success. And he was like, Exactly. That’s what our whole ministry is built to create. And I had to sort of stop and say, I think that’s the root of the problem. I don’t think that’s what a family is. I think we think that’s what a family is. That idea of the nest that we’re here to provide springboards for the individuals of our family. But it’s clear in scripture God didn’t designed the family to be a springboard for individual success. He designed the family to work together. Every single child that comes into that family is a part of a larger team, and that team is given a mission. And so that move from the mission is a family mission to an individual mission disintegrated us. And so now how do we balance all of the crazy things we have in our lives? Because we don’t have an overarching principle through which we see how we do our lives. We don’t have this community through which we live our lives and try to accomplish things God’s given us. We primarily see those as individual things. And when you do that, that is incredibly destructive to the family. It’s going all the way back to why are we the number one country in the world of single parent families? It’s because of this is because we don’t need the family anymore. We are primarily extracting from the family wherever we can get to be an individual. And the place where I kind of come back and really want to have this conversation primarily is with entrepreneurs, because an entrepreneur has a unique opportunity to make this decision. I think it’s very difficult for people who are working in employment situations that have almost no control of their time. The resources to they can decide to go back and adopt more of a family team mindset. But entrepreneurs have a lot of ability to craft the kind of lifestyle that they want to have for their family. And so I primarily work with Christian entrepreneurs who are attempting to reintegrate their lives together as a family and as they’re thinking about the future, their children, their grandchildren and great grandchildren, as they’re thinking about how to live their life as a family. An entrepreneur can decide to create my children into work. Do we live a holistic life together as a family, or do we continue to live this sort of more individualized, atomized lifestyle?

Rusty Rueff: So that’s fascinating. Jeremy. Look, you know, you scaled companies, you came out of the advertising world, you had a creative agency when you adopted this pretty radical change of philosophy. I would say, you know, from what as you said, we were being either taught in the church or taught in society when you made this shift. What that look like? I mean, show us, you know, so we can learn from you. What were the some of the things that just had to change?

Jeremy Pryor: Yeah, it was challenging. And there’s sort of a couple of things that we tried that really helped. The first thing was just this mindset shift that when I was going to work, I wasn’t going as an individual. I’m a father representing our family, building a business for the sake of our multi-generational family. And so I was constantly finding ways to tell that story to our kids that this isn’t Dad’s thing, this isn’t Dad’s project, this is a family thing. And in trying to figure out different ways to make that work. And, you know, one of the things I was committed to do during that whole season is, for example, we have five kids. I took one of my kids to work with me every day. So on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, they were, you know, as a 7 or 8 year old, they’d sit in board meetings. I would talk to them, you know, in between my meetings with people. They would interact with the different employees in our business. And it’s just something that I, I offer to all of our employees at our business. I said to them, look, I know that since the Industrial Revolution, basically, you know, family and work have been disintegrated. And I think that’s been a disaster. So I don’t know how to it’s very difficult in a modern industrial economy to reintegrate those things. And I know that everyone is kind of doing their own thing. So what we offered our employees, for example, was we said, you guys can attempt what we called an experiment, an integration. So I know that one of the problems with the total disintegration between family and work is that we assume that when somebody is on the clock, they are 100% focused on work, right? There’s no integration at all. You’re on the clock and your job is to work. And I agree with that. I think that as we’ve told employees and your time is your time now, your time is it’s work time. Now, one of the questions I asked and one of these I said are places what would happen if you would find a way to integrate, you know, let’s say your kids into work in some way that required a 5% efficiency hit. So now instead of being 100% focused, I’m 95% focused. Is it worth all of that time I got recaptured. So for me, for example, I’m spending, you know, five, six, seven more hours with my kids every week than I otherwise I would not [….] is that one on one time that I’m getting to have with my kids in between meetings and, you know, working with them in that way. That was an experiment that we ran as a family, and it worked so well that we decided to continue to do it for years and continue to expand it to more and more time. There’s lots of ways that we can try to push back against this assumption that our work and our family life should be completely disintegrated. And so that’s one example. The last one, I would say is, you know, we started our first business. We started an e-commerce business right after I left ministry and we got an investor in that business. And we would do board meetings every month. And in my board meetings with him and there were like 2 or 3 hour long board meetings, he would come with his three sons and they were all kind of in their late 20s, early 30s. And of course it was 2 to 3 hour board meetings. I would sit there in this boardroom and this father would often pause the meeting and just turn to his son to kind of explain something, because they owned a whole portfolio of companies and they were investing a lot of different businesses. And so I would sit there sometimes and just like, wait for him, you know, to finish that process of explaining things. And, you know, this went on for years. And I remember one day just sitting there listening to him, you know, talk to his son. And I kind was just did the math. And like, this guy spends more time with his kids in their 30s than most dads I know, spend time with their kids when they’re still in their house. And I was a young guy in my late 20s and I just made a decision right then. And I was at that time I wasn’t doing business for family reasons, but this really tweaked me. I was like, I got five kids. I want that to be an option someday and I’m not going to work like it’s going to work with me. But there’s certain career paths or certain lifestyles. I can choose where that would be a possibility and certain career paths and certain options I could choose about my business ownership, but that would be an impossibility. So let me decide to do that so that that’s possible. And so we started in our late 20s, this process of thinking through in every business and asset development that we were doing from the perspective of what do we want this to look like when I’m in my late 40s, 50s, 60s and now we’re getting into that phase, right? I’m a grandfather now. My kids are older, they’re adults. Most of my kids are adults now. And so virtually everything we do from a work ministry perspective is integrate with our kids.

Rusty Rueff: And that’s really cool, you know? Hey, Henry, didn’t you do something similar? I mean, didn’t you take your boys this summer on some of your FDE.

Henry Kaestner: So I did. I did. I’ve got three boys, so I’m fascinated, of course, about three generals talking about the guy that was born in the lives of three boys and my youngest one, and said he’s always wanted to work with me. And that’s been cool. The middle one and the older one I didn’t think had any interest really in what I was doing at all. But they came to me this summer and said, I’d like to work with you, but it brings up a question and I’ve got and I loved it. It was awesome. Super cool, really rich time because I was able to talk to them about why I did what I did and the mission and what hopefully would advance in God’s kingdom because we were doing this work under God’s power for His glory. What does it all even look like? And that was really fulfilling for me. I do wonder, though, when you have different kids, each of whom in in our case, none of the three boys look like me at all and they’re all completely different. I’m unbelievable. It makes me wonder if you had this kind of this sense of wanting your kids to be part of the family business, which is very attractive to me, to be very clear. But then maybe 1 or 2 of them opt out or feel like they’re on the outside looking in and just understanding that dynamic as it continues. If there is some level of expectation that, Hey, dad really wants me in this business and there’s something this multi-generational business, and yet I feel like I failed because my two brothers are doing it, but I’m not. And just what are the unintended consequences of being explicit about wanting my children to be a part of this mission I’m on, whether it’s in philanthropy or whether it’s investing or just general entrepreneurship. Is one of them or two of them or all three of them end up feeling like they’d disappointed me if that doesn’t happen.

Jeremy Pryor: And that’s why I think the better. Maybe phrasing is you want to be an option. And that’s what I would tell my kids growing up. Like I want it to be an option. If you want to work with me, it’s more on them. I’m like, I have these assets. I’m building them in such a way that I could partner with you, you could partner with me, and if you would like to do that and I told my kids I expected there would be seasons where that’s not going to be the case. You’re in exploring other things. You’re going to be, but I’m going to make that an option for you. And then the other part of it is I would say my value is for integration as opposed to like we have this one family business and this is what I think is different to an entrepreneur and maybe somebody who who owns just one family business. So we’ve we started you know, we have, you know, multiple businesses and a couple of ministries. And, you know, we have assets that we built. And so what we did is we started a legacy business with the resources we had and that legacy business, which is, you know, for us, it’s mostly real estate investing. That is something that all of my kids are interested in, you know, because these are assets that they’re going to inherit. And so what we do is we started working together and it provided in that particular business. So we have much more specialized businesses like a [….], you know, that where I was similar to Henry, where I had one of my kids that was kind of interested in that business. And I think sometimes with a lot of dads, they get fixated on their one business that they do. And it does appeal as a specialization to maybe one of their kids. The other kids like that doesn’t resonate with me. But a legacy business is different. This is why I really as I’m kind of coaching fathers who are entrepreneurs to think about this, to separate a legacy business from whatever scale business they’re using to really generate a lot of their resources. And a legacy business is basically the wholly owned, capital intensive family. And it’s really important that the kids take a role in that. It’s not a full time job. It could be like, for example, in our real estate, my son, you know, he loves doing renovations. My daughter does property management, my wife does the books. You know, I find the deals like there’s been an open doors for much more of a high variety of the different skill sets of our kids. And it’s not overwhelming. And it’s very clear from a future perspective why they might want to invest in learning to steward assets because they’re going to inherit assets. That’s an example of this isn’t necessarily taking over all of their work life, and it’s just there are different open doors. And so our family in other way, what kind of picture is our family is like a hub. We own various things. We have ministry of opportunities that we’re part of. We have businesses that are more specializations. We have, you know, investing that we do. And, you know, these are all open to you and they’re designed for integration. And at that point, it’s an invitation to your children as opposed to demand.

Rusty Rueff: That’s cool. I must shift gears just a little bit here. And I want to talk about busyness and success and how those two things. And I’m guessing Henry started a business. William is in the middle of starting a business. I’ve started a business and we all have been. I’m guessing, William, you’re not sitting around figuring out what to do these days. You’ve got plenty of things to keep you busy, right?

William Norvell: Well, on occasion, yes. I get few task, few task.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. So as entrepreneurs, you know, we’re always busy, and I guess we sort of think we need to be busy in some ways, right? It because we have people relying on us and things to do. So, Jeremy, how could you help us as entrepreneurs, everybody who’s listening, figure out how to get this sort of balanced perspective, you know, a business success and especially in the context of faith.

Jeremy Pryor: Yeah, it is. I think how to order your life is a huge challenge. So the way that we do it, we believe that God has basically provided a technology that allows for us to order our lives properly as families. And it’s a technology that’s called the week. Like, I think that it was actually invented by God in the.

Jeremy Pryor: Week as in w e e k.

Jeremy Pryor: is an invention. The God and God specifically says in Exodus 20 when he talks about the fourth commandment, he the Sabbath, he says, In six days you shall labor and one day you shall rest. Because that’s how I did this as a pattern for you. So a seven day rhythm in designing your ideal seven days is the way that we kind of go about balancing and kind of working through busyness. And for us, you know, that starts with keeping a Sabbath. And so in our family, you know, we it’s similar where it, you know, Genesis when it says and evening and morning are Sabbath kicks off on Friday night. And so we host a large multi-generational family dinner every Friday night. And so we have about, you know, 15 to 20 people that come to that meal. And so we we enter into rest together. And so there’s a meal. And so that pattern of we’re going to work really hard for six days and then we’re going to rest for 24 hours. So Friday night, Saturday night, that’s been our rhythm. We’ve been keeping that for the last 15 years as a family. It also allows us to experience our family identities that are very deep level. So a lot of people don’t get this experience maybe at Thanksgiving or and so and it’s so we’re so in a practice that I think oftentimes it can be a tough experience. But we do this every week and this is another thing that we lived in in Israel several times and just were so impacted by these Jewish families and how, again, they they see family differently. And when you have when your peak experience every week is at a table with your family, it does something to the way that you view all of life. And so that’s what we try to craft. That kind of peak moment in our week is when we come together around a table and it’s really timeless. Like nobody’s running off to do anything else. I mean, it starts and then it goes for, you know, 3 or 4 hours and we’re just there with each other, playing games, telling stories, you know, eating. You know, we’ve got four generations now present at our table. My parents are there. April’s my wife’s mother all the way down to my grandson. And so, yeah, it’s just that, I would say allows us to work really hard. So if we’re working six days a week and we’re working in an integrated way, we don’t mind working 12, 14 hour days, you know, some of the days of the week. Again, it’s not 12 or 14 hours away from my family. It’s very integrated. And we all know the Sabbath is coming. We’re we’re going to have just that timeless right to enter into a completely different kind of mode of life with each other.

William Norvell: Jeremy, it sounds like you had a lot of experience talking to entrepreneurs that are trying to make this happen. I’m curious. One of the struggles I have to say for myself is like. I hear everything you’re saying. I mean, it all makes sense to me. But I’ve got investors. I’ve got employees. How do you counsel people, Entrepreneurs? When is rest one? When has rest been earned? When have you, quote unquote, done enough? I feel like in my small entrepreneurial group of people try to encourage people. It’s like we want all of our family. But people trusted us and gave us money. Like there’s always another sale you can make. There’s always something you can do. How do you triangulate that on a day to day basis of, you know, I have worked a good day. I have given this day to the Lord. I’ve worked under him, and it’s okay to turn the phone off for two hours and spend time with family. That is that struggle that I feel like me and a lot of my friends just fight there and we want to steward God’s resources well and the people that have taken a chance on us but also love our families.

William Norvell: Yeah, well, yeah, we just said they’re they’re God’s resources and therefore I think he’s the only one that can answer that properly. When you have so many stakeholders who are putting pressure on you. So I think, yeah, one way to think about this is you guys remember which day that God created Adam and Eve, you know, remembering creation days one through seven when they got created.

Henry Kaestner: Six, right?

Jeremy Pryor: Yeah, six. So they were creating day six. And what was day seven?

Henry Kaestner: Rest first. Yeah.

Jeremy Pryor: So their first day before they worked, before they did anything, their first day before they earned anything was rest. And so one of the things that we constantly have to tell our families we’re working or others in the churches, we don’t rest from work. We work from rest. So if you’re constantly trying to earn rest, I think that there’s going to be a nagging suspicion that I don’t know if I did enough this week, right? I don’t know if I please enough people. There’s more. I could have done more. And so I think that’s important to go the other direction with it because I don’t think you can ever shut that down. I think you have to ask, and this is why it says you. This is why he makes the rest a commandment. And I don’t think as a New Testament, you know, or Jesus, I don’t feel like I have to rest or I have to keep a Sabbath. But I do think it’s really helpful to me as I study the scripture, that God, he wanted his people to keep a Sabbath. And so He commanded it so that those voices would be turned off so that you wouldn’t feel you have to earn it. And so because you have to give yourself that space first. And the same thing happened with this is a pattern throughout scripture, right? That when God brought the children of Israel out of slavery, he didn’t like get them to earn something. And then given the law, he first gave them the Torah. And then after he came along on Mount Sinai, you know, that it was afterwards that he brought them into the Promised Land or with the gospel. And Jesus, Jesus first tells us who we are in the gospel. He He saves us first, while are yet sinners. He died for us in that state. And then from that place we come into our work. And so to me, that’s almost the definition of the difference between slavery and sonship. In scripture. You know, a slave has to earn rest and a son is granted it by his identity.

Henry Kaestner: Okay, So many different questions that I want to take off the shelf, but we’re going to need to close soon. But just a couple ones. Just rapid fire, because you’ve really got me going here. Just fourth with the biblical precedent and the model. And then how applies to me with three teenage boys, two of whom are in college and getting set and talking about career, it changed my paradigm here a little bit. I just want to explore a little bit more some operational details. So if you’re working on, say, real estate and the legacy business, you got multifamily and somebody one of your children is really good at like lawn care, like they’re just like great landscape architect and someone another one is better financial models, presumably the open market one has a higher replacement cost than any other. How do you think about salary compensation? Is that divided equally?

Jeremy Pryor: Yeah, it’s tough because you have to decide if you’re going to create a micro economy inside of your family in order to even that out or if you’re going to set a market economy right. And I can go back and forth on that. Henry. So my son started a construction company with, you know, he’s in discipleship house with a bunch of guys. And so, you know, they’re right now living in a market economy. And I think at that stage, that age, I think that’s really important, that they live in a market economy. And so they’re being paid where they can generate and I’m a part of the business. Again, it’s not about them necessarily. Joining me, both my daughter and my son, they both started their own businesses and then my wife and I, you know, help them. We consult with them. We work with them. You know, that’s the season they’re in and they deal with the market economy. In those cases, those people living in my house, my daughters who are younger, they live in a micro economy that I create. And so, like we just had a conversation this week actually, where there are some really important things that I want them to be a part of, but I don’t want to compete with other possible rates that they might get in the market economy. And so I’m paying them, you know, more like a premium in order for them to do what makes the most sense for our household. So like one of our Airbnb is like we’re, we’re paying them a little extra than we would necessarily pay somebody to clean the Airbnb because we get to do that together. And there’s a lot of other responsibilities and flexibilities that are needed to be part of this household. And so I think that that’s the kind of world that. I would say when my kids are older and they’re beginning to address the market, then I kind of want them to deal with the market rate challenges they’re going to face out there. So both my two oldest kids are in that market economy, whereas my younger kids are still in the micro economy in our family.

Henry Kaestner: Got it. Okay. So market economy allows for a certain degree of autonomy, which helps me think through the Gen three issue, which is that this is one thing when you’ve just it would seem to be more and more difficult as the generations go down. So there’s enough independence out there, enough example of the Shabbath type of family getting together that that makes an impression on Gen three. They see that lived out. But there’s not flexibility about being able to participate in the broader market economy and somebody potentially working harder than another or potentially earning more. And yet there is this and maybe I’m putting words in your mouth is this kind of like cheering one another on people feeling free to advise and counsel is sought during the Shabbat about a problem that they’re experiencing in one of their market economy jobs. Maybe speaking to that a little bit before William brings this to a close.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, for sure. I think you want your kids to figure out how to work in that marketplace, but not alone. It’s okay to give children the privilege of the full weight of the family’s wisdom, the family’s resources. Right. The most powerful kind of privilege in the world, I think, is fatherhood. Privilege is a great book that Warren [….] wrote about. He said that they called him Dad Deprived boys. Right. And then father privilege like these kids coming from. And that’s something we want for everyone. Like we want everyone to experience that. And so part of that is we need to make sure that we are giving our kids as much as we can to help them while they go out and attempt to work in the economy the way it is. And so those Shabbat conversations. I mean, we’re because of the way our week is structured. I have those business meetings already scheduled in my normal workweek. And so I’m having those business meetings all the time with my kids in their businesses to figure out how to help them, to get them connected to whoever, to help them succeed. And so I would say in the Shabbat, when we kind of come back into that world, then it’s pretty much, you know, the kinds of conversations. There’s really almost no productive work related. We’re doing a lot of storytelling about our family’s past. We’re talking about a lot of vision and, you know, looking into the future. We’re studying the scriptures together at that time. We’re celebrating, you know, with each other. And so there’s a lot of leadership in the direction of like how to enter into that kind of timeless moment. But in order to do that, we do need to have enough time to have those business conversations during our workweek.

Henry Kaestner: Rusty, do you know who Jeremy sounds like?

Rusty Rueff: Who.

Henry Kaestner: He sounds like David Bruckner. He sounds like a messianic Jew.

Rusty Rueff: He does, that is true

Henry Kaestner: He sound like somebody who’s kind of first for the Jews, then for the Gentiles and the Jewish lineage and history of the Old Testament? What does that teach us about God’s word and his promises and family and then building the saving grace of Jesus on top of it, It sounds to me really compelling framework. Rusty has come out with this great book called Faith Code that he’s coauthored with one of his great friends, Terry Brisbane. But another one of the three guys he gets together is guy named David Brickner, who runs a ministry called Jews for Jesus. And I’m hearing echoes of that through what Jeremy is talking about earlier.

William Norvell: That was that’s probably the most beautiful setup for our last question you’ve ever done right there. You walk through the entire Old Testament, through the New Testament, through the grace of Jesus on top. And therefore, where do we end? We end at the Word of God. Jeremy We love to end every single one of our shows by referring back to Scripture and just saying, Where does God have you today? And that could be something He put on your heart this morning, even in this minute can be something you’ve been meditating on your whole life. But just if you could invite us into your journey with Scripture today, we really grateful.

Jeremy Pryor: Yeah. Well, that’s great, guys. Well, there’s one verse that I was reminded of today that I think maybe it would be kind of bring us together. So oftentimes when things are broken, when they’re not working, we as entrepreneurs sometimes can think that the solution is to innovate. And I definitely have that instinct. And I’ve learned so often now because what you guys just said, because there’s thousands of years of scriptural wisdom that oftentimes the problems we’re experiencing the present or because we left something in the past. And so there’s a verse in Jeremiah 6:16 that’s almost become like a family life verse for our family. And it says, This is what the Lord says. Stand at the crossroads and look. Ask for the ancient paths. Ask where the good way is and walk in it and you will find rest for your souls. And so sometimes it’s a stand at a crossroads, like sometimes, and you’re heading the wrong direction. Maybe stop right and look at these ancient paths. You know, sometimes the solution to our problem is not an innovation, but something that we have left in the past. And that’s what I discovered. I really think this is true about the way we think about family and ask where the good ideas and ultimately what he’s saying as the result of that is rest. And that’s why we talk about this ancient way of the Sabbath, if you can, business, right And you get family right, you kind of embrace these ancient paths. Then you get rest and for your soul and man, we all need soul rest. And that’s what the Sabbath is all about. We always want to enter into our Sabbath. We’re talking about there’s body rest and soul rest. And they’re not the same thing. You know, body rest is like, I’m so exhausted that I can’t answer the email. Soul rest is it is finished. It’s the hardest work that I ever really had to do is already been accomplished for me. And that does something to my soul. That’s the gospel. That and where do we learn that we have to stop working and just receive the gospel? And so we want to do that on a weekly basis. Just enter in as a family into the rest that’s already been earned for us.

Joseph Honescko: Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. We’ve got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There’s no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at faith driven entrepreneur.org.

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