Episode 312 - Mark Batterson: Rediscovering Everyday Miracles
"We aren't content with good ideas. We want God ideas." - Mark Batterson
IJoin us for an inspiring discussion with Mark Batterson, Bill Job, and Justin Forman as they unpack the concept of "holy curiosity" in entrepreneurship. This episode takes listeners on a journey from the coffeehouse-turned-church in Washington D.C. to the factory floors of China, revealing how faith can drive innovation and risk-taking in business. Batterson introduces his new book on rediscovering everyday miracles, while Job shares powerful anecdotes about finding joy and purpose in unexpected places. Together, they challenge the notion of "safe" Christianity and encourage entrepreneurs to embrace the adventure of faith-driven business. This conversation is a must-listen for anyone seeking to integrate their spiritual life with their entrepreneurial pursuits.
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Justin Forman Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Great to be with you guys again. It's Justin here hosting this week's episode. And one of the things I recently said on social media is one of the just great joys that I get in life is I get to feel like I spend time with with rock stars, not the guys that have large TikTok followings and all this type of stuff, but humble heroes of the faith that have been living this out in long obedience and a faithful direction for some time. And today's episode is just a treat for me to get to connect some of those stories that have meant a lot on my journey. And so in today's episode, we're going to be talking about just the joy of what it means to follow God, the wonder of it, and the wonder of being in touch, being in conversation at every turn. And so one of those fun stories for me, when I had started this 20 years ago, I started this journey post-college and exploring this conversation of what does it mean if you lose faith and work together was running across an incredible story of an entrepreneur on the other side of the world in Shaman China that was being faithful to follow God's call. And it was a gift for us then to capture a story that inspired so many as we were building right now media and inspired so many in the years. And so a previous guest on our podcast coming back to co-host this episode with me. Welcome back Bill Jobe to the show.
Bill Job Thank you, Justin. It's great to be with you.
Justin Forman Indeed it is. It's fun to think about it. Bill Cash, What was that? Was it a dozen years ago, 15 years ago, trying to remember when was it that we were actually filming that story?
Bill Job I'm afraid to count. I think it's closer to 20.
Justin Forman Yeah, it was a while ago and it's just fun to think about that. And we may have have that story on a VHS tape somewhere. I don't know if that went straight to streaming or straight to VHS tape, but it's been a while. But man, what a testament just to the way that God has worked over the years. And it's just fun to have you back and fun to talk about this topic of what does it look like to kind of follow God and do that? And when we were thinking about just this topic and about unpacking this issue, it was fun to reconnect and to hear the story of Mark Patterson's upcoming book, just talking about this very same topic. And for me personally, just another fun moment as we have gotten to film some different projects in the early days with right now media and just everything that was there. And one of the things that struck me just about this idea of faith in the marketplace is that this has been a growing trend. Pastors increasingly getting a passion, understanding and appreciation for just how God is just moving the marketplace. And Mark is one of those guys that has been leading this conversation, been having this conversation for some time. So, Mark, welcome to the show and thanks for joining us.
Mark Batterson: Great to be back. Justin Excited to be with both of you and to see where the conversation takes us.
Justin Forman Well, Mark, start us off for a minute. When you talk about the journey of National Community Church, it's a unique story of how you guys planted both and how it was planted and where you guys are today. Can you give everybody just a quick flyover of the church that you guys are part of?
Mark Batterson Yeah, we started with the core group of 19 people for about 20 years. We're 80% single 20 somethings. So a very young and I think pretty innovative church. There are ways of doing church no one's thought of yet. We believe that church ought to be the most creative place on the planet. So, you know, most churches out of the gate might build a church building. We decided to build a coffeehouse and a place where church and community could cross paths. Well, why would you do that? Because Jesus didn't just hang out at the synagogue, hung out at Wells, these natural gathering places and ancient culture. And so we thought, well, let's build a coffeehouse. Plus, I would say the Holy Spirit plus caffeine equals awesome, those two things together. And so we have continued to just be in the marketplace. In fact, maybe we'll talk a little bit. We now have a city block, 100,000ft² that we are building out as a mixed use marketplace event venue and pretty fun because we get to interface with thousands of people that may not darken a church door, but maybe we'll rub shoulders and have a positive impact on them. Yeah, and we're 28 years in which I guess what I'm saying is I'm not getting any younger.
Justin Forman Yeah, well, what a remarkable story of just kind of where got sort of relate to being a history buff. I can't walk past the fact of just kind of that new building that you talked about. When you talk about being in the marketplace, like there's a rich tradition that you guys are building on there.
Mark Batterson There is, we feel, a Isaiah 58 calling to rebuild the broken walls so turned a crack house into that coffee house in an abandoned apartment building in Ward seven that we turned into our DC Dream Center and then our Capitol Hill campus. This city block was the Navy Yard car barn built in 1891. So the brick in these walls is more than 130 years old. And it's where streetcars were repaired and rerouted for most of its history. So we called it the capital turnaround, and we just turnaround people's lives instead of streetcars. So that's the long and short.
Justin Forman What a great story. Well, let's present a little bit. You've got a book coming out. We're thrilled to be a part of kind of introducing this to the faith driven entrepreneur audience. I think there's so much crossover when we talk about this issue. Tell everybody about the idea behind the book. What got you to here and maybe just kind of lead us into some of the conversations you've had and how this applies to entrepreneurs.
Mark Batterson Yeah, well, a million little Miracles, fun book to write and a lot of research. I think more footnotes or end notes than any book I've written about 688 and notes. But I love science. I think all truth is God's truth. I think embryology is a branch of theology. And so I've met people who say they'd never experience a miracle. With all due respect, you've never. Not in fact, you are one. So Albert Einstein said only two ways to live your life. One is as if nothing is a miracle. The other is as if everything is. So this book is not about the miracles that are the anomalies and epiphanies. Now, I believe in those kind of miracles, too. These are the everyday miracles that we tend to take for granted, like the 37 sextillion chemical reactions happening in the human body right now. You are fearfully and wonderfully made. So I did my toe in everything from neuroanatomy to astrophysics, everything in between. And just to remind readers, life is a miracle. Today is a miracle. You are a miracle. Every breath is a miracle. Every drop of water. So that's the tip of the iceberg just in. But it's a book about rediscovering the miracles that are all around us all the time.
Justin Forman Bill, I'd love for you to jump in here. You know, followers of the podcast have been following this for quite some time. I know we got such incredible feedback from the episode when we had you on before, and you talked about just kind of some of the things. Mark just unpack. There is the wonder and the joy that we have as entrepreneurs is just kind of following on this journey. Can you just kind of push into that a little bit of what that's look like for you and your journey as an entrepreneur?
Bill Job I think a lot of what we eventually experienced came from a shift of identity where instead of serving God with the business that I was forming, I actually got under him. Seeing him as the owner who went to work with me every single day. Initially I felt like from the talents and the minus stories, he was like the master in that story that gives me a command to do business until he returns and now he's going to go away and get another kingdom. And after a long time, he'll return. So in the first few years, it felt like I was alone to develop this business that we started. And then I realized that actually it's an Old Testament story and in the sense that it happened before the death and resurrection of Jesus. And so right in John 17, he says this great hand-off thing. He says, You know that glory I have with my dad that I've been demonstrating to you guys all this time, I am giving that glory to you. It's going to be me and you and you and me. And so then when I replayed this talents in the miners stories, I realized, okay, so he gives me a command to do business and he just stands right there with me and he never goes anywhere. And so now you go to work and you realize, okay, he's present, he's right here with me. I had better not make his decisions for him. We better start surrendering to the most creative person in the universe and let him call the shots because it's his company. I'm just a steward. And so when I began to realize his presence was always there, I realized, all of the responsibilities shifted my even the authority. I just need to primarily report to him and see what he wants to do. And so it developed what we call the 2 to 4 second window of opportunity. And that comes from the idea of I just wanted to get the mechanics of how did Jesus do that thing? You know, when he says, I never said anything my dad didn't tell me to say, and I never did anything it didn't tell me to do. You've seen him because I've been walking with him and I wanted to know. Well, when did his father tell him to do those things? That I want to push down a little more detail. Like, did they have a Monday morning, 9:00 meeting for the whole week and plan it out or what? And my intuition was it is much more responsive. It's just right on the spot. And so if he stops and talks to somebody and a scriptural story, I now believe he probably was told by his dad to do that just before he did it. And so I feel like we only get a few seconds of opportunity. And if we're not really tuned in, we'll miss it. And it's really kind of a sad thing to miss it. It's so fun and so interesting. So like we had a baker come one time to the parking lot. I got out of the car and he was standing there waiting for me. And so I felt like, there, the clock is starting. I better pay attention to see if this is something God's up to. And so I get out of the car. He goes, Hey, boss, how are you? And I go, Hey, who are you? And I'm not your boss. And he said, Well, you're going to be. And I said, What are you talking about? And he said, Well, I've been looking for you for six months. I heard about you when I was in jail for begging. And so I've been trying to find you, and now I finally found you. And so I'm checking in with the Lord and I get a green light. Yeah. Let's go ahead and bring this guy in. And honestly, he couldn't speak very clearly. Didn't have an I.D. His clothes were horrible. So we went, got him a room, got him some new clothes, got him a shower, got him an idea, and then brought him into the company. And it turned out that the first week he left his position there, like nine teams and he was a team member. We were making stained glass lampshades. And I walked through the factory and he walks over and he goes, Hey, boss. And he starts chatting it up and I go, He said, You can't do that. You got to go back and can go to work. I mean, you got to be productive. And he goes, Well, I like doing different things every day. And I said, I don't care what you like. You get to go back, go to work. And then that weekend, he became a believer. And the next week during a legitimate break time, he goes, Hey, boss, we've got five teams. Would you let me go to team number one on Monday and do the things they don't want to do? It would be like measuring copper wire and bending it to particular shapes because there's reinforcing thing. And then let me do team number two on Tuesday and team number three on Wednesday. And so we let that happen and on Tuesday that the team number one supervisor goes, Hey boss, where is that little guy? He's sort of a midget. And I go, Well, you don't get him today because he is with team number two. And he goes, No, no, no, you don't understand. He was really helpful. And so it developed into a team of probably a dozen handicapped people off the streets that formed a support team. And everybody made more money because the regular workers were more productive. And so they got more. And then the company's output went up about 20%, I would say. And if you look at over ten years, I think we made $1 million more profit because we hired a beggar. And so I'm looking back at that. I go, okay, there's the adventure. This is so fun. When you look back and you look in the rearview mirror and you see what God's been doing and you start recognizing. Those patterns. And it's just so interesting.
Justin Forman Yeah, it's fascinating when you're talking about this bill. And for those you guys that haven't been as familiar with Bill's story, if you go through an entrepreneur website, you can see that video we filmed years ago or listen to podcast. It's a remarkable story of what you're talking about. That's not the kind of thing you had in a business plan. That's not the kind of thing that you scoped out in years. It's responding to God in the way you talk about that. 2 to 4 second window, I think is so key. And so, Mark, I want to kind of bring it back to you when you're talking about this idea of miracles, just the scope of how many maybe that pass us by each day. Like what does it take for us to have more of the eyes to see all of what's happening around us?
Mark Batterson Yeah, well, I mean, for starters, we're on a planet that's spinning at a thousand miles an hour, makes one full rotation every day, speeding through space. It's 67,000mph. So even on a day, you didn't get much done in all. I'll just direct it to Justin and Bill. Even on a day you didn't get much done. You did travel 1.6 million miles through space. So there is that.
Justin Forman Is that my step counter, does that get counted on my phone? Do I get credit for that?
Mark Batterson It doesn't count on your step. Nope. I you know, and here's the thing. No one at the end of the day kneels down and says, Lord, thanks for keeping us in orbit. Or I wasn't sure we're going to make the full rotation today. But you did it again. Like, why? Because God is so good at what God does that we take it for granted. And I think part of what I want to do is, come on, let's wake up to the miracles. There was a defining moment for me. I was a freshman at the University of Chicago taking a class in immunology at the University of Chicago Medical Center. And I remember the professor talking about hemoglobin. I don't think I'd ever heard of it. I'm not sure I knew how to spell it. But every red blood cell as 260 million hemoglobin that deliver oxygen to the trillions of cells in the human body like I want to just bravo like, wow. Fearfully a wonderfully made every single breath, you know, 100,000 miles of airways and pathways. And so I just think the miracles are happening. It's just we're like Jacob Pre Bethel. We're just unaware of it. And what we need to do is carp a wonder, wake up to those miracles. And part of it, you know, Bill, the miracles aren't just nature. It's the people that are right next to us, right? It's the people, the like. The story you just told. When I start seeing people as the image of God is the apple of God's eye, as fearfully and wonderfully made as God's workmanship, now I can treat them for who they really are, and that is a miracle.
Justin Forman When is it that we've gotten here, Bill? When is it? We've gotten to the point where we've made entrepreneurship too much of a formula. I mean, this applies so much to our faith, as much it is like traditions are healthy, business plans are healthy. There's so much things about planning that's good. But when is it that we have kind of boxed in things we've tightened things, we've suppressed things so much that we've lost that childlike wonder.
Bill Job I'm formulating an idea. Let me just lay it out and you guys can help me shape it some. I think the one problem in the world that if solved would solve all of the problems is the spiritual ails symptoms in the body of Christ. My first business partner died of ALS, so I became pretty familiar with it. And as that horrible disease, Stephen Hawking had a version of it where you could have an incredibly smart mind, a brain, but it loses the ability to connect with the members of the body. And so I looked at the scripture one day that says, for each one of us is to grow up into him who is the head from whom? The whole body being knitted and held together grows with the growth which is from God. And so the picture of the body of Christ is apparently we have a very capable head in position. He can handle everything that comes his way in. Every single member of the body is supposed to be getting its direction from the head. So if I drink a cup of coffee, my head is giving my elbow, shoulder, wrist fingers, all instructions and they have to cooperate. But my elbow is not controlling my hand. My head is. And I just feel like if we measured the spiritual symptoms and the body of Christ today, it would be a pretty low measurement or the symptoms are pretty high. The control of the head over each member of the body 24 seven is pretty low. But if we could change that, I think that would answer your question. Justin. People aren't getting their direction from the head. They're getting it from each other and that's why they begin to look the same and you lose the creativity. Because now they're modeling each other. And that's because they don't have a strong connection with the head. Or to Mark's point in his book, I think one of the points that he was mentioning is you've got to have courage to take the risk, to step out into the direction that the head of the church has given you. And so a lot of folks see the risk and they went out and they go, that's that's a lot. I don't think I can do that. And so we're missing out on the delivery of creativity from the creator to each of us.
Justin Forman Okay. So, Bill, you hit on something here that we're just filming with David Kinnaman last week, and it was an interesting conversation as we were talking about this. And you said, is there a moment that we're in that the church has something to learn from entrepreneurs? When we think about the early days of church? And I'm coming to you, Mark, here with a question on this. Is this idea of so much in the early days of our faith, so much in the early days of the church. We were known for this appetite for risk. And obviously, there are places in the world today where it is very risky and it's very dangerous. There are some of those things that are physical threat. There's just a lot going on there. And yet in the western side of things, have we derisked have we lost some of that appetite for risk? And that's entrepreneur. That's big seed church, That's everybody included. So as you think about that, guys like I'd love both of your perspectives in this and maybe we'll start with Mark. Mark. You're around entrepreneurs. You've seen it. You're in the marketplace. You've lived those moments as a church from the early days. What is it about this moment that maybe we could learn from entrepreneurs in that risk tolerance here as a church?
Mark Batterson Yeah. Well, I think faith is spelled r, i. S k. The will of God is not an insurance plan. It's a dangerous plan. Like you can't read the second half of Hebrews 11 and come to any other conclusion. But I think playing it safe is risky. And the parable of the talents, You know, if you bury your talent in the ground, that seems like a safe bet. It's the break even. But evidently it's Breaking Bad because Jesus calls that servant wicked, which seems kind of harsh. But, you know, I think we have to be willing by faith. And I'm not dismissing, you know, risk reward ratio. But let's be honest. We had no business going into the coffee business like we had no experience whatsoever. But God isn't called a qualified. He qualifies the call and we felt a calling to step in. Now, we did our homework. You know, you got to put together a business plan. You have to do the groundwork and do the due diligence. But I think there's a lot to learn. You know, I've always felt like as a church planter, starting with 19 people 28 years ago, that's a form of entrepreneurship, whether it's starting a church or a business. And I'll say one last thing and then hand the baton to bill for every church we plant. I think we ought to start a business mission. And part of why I say that is it was a $14 million gift from an entrepreneur who has a mind for business and a heart for the kingdom that retired our debt as a church. We need these two things to be in tandem. And so whether you're starting a business or starting a church, spirit filled spirit lead, and when we obey those promptings of the spirit, now we set the stage for God to show up and show off and do some pretty amazing miracles.
Bill Job Mark That's a great introduction to one thing I wanted to comment on. I have a seminary degree and I've memorized a number of books in the Scriptures, so I had that impression that I knew what was going on, but I didn't have an obedience component to it. And so one day in China, an American business guy invited a bunch of Americans to a Thanksgiving banquet as a gift. It was just a real gracious act. That night, I went home and I started thumbing through scripture and I realized, hey, wait a minute, I've been told how to have banquets. Also, I've been told to go get the people off the streets that can't invite you back, the ones the cripple, the lame. And I'd never done it. I've probably taught it about 20 times. And it's the embarrassment of realizing I didn't want to take the risk of actually doing what the scripture says. So i went to work and my h.r. Manager is just a wonderful brother and i showed him the passage and i said, have you ever done that? And he goes, No. And I said, you want to. And I felt that excitement that was really so internally rewarding when you step into obedience. And he said, sure. And so we took a restaurant over two days later and we filled it with 28 of our people off the street. And we just said, okay, feed them until they can't walk. And we had the most glorious time. And I realized that is it. That's the risk that you have to take to actually do what the scriptures say to do. And even though I knew it and could teach it. So to speak. I had not demonstrated it. So we got into a habit of just doing what the Scripture says. So I was being cursed by six witches one time and I looked at the scripture, says, you know, bless those who curse you. And I used to think they're cussing me out. And then I realized, no, that's not actually what it says. They're actually cursing you. And so overseas, you can have that experience. And so the scripture says, no, just go pray for them and bless them. And so we had people from our factory going out to their houses at five in the morning and walking around and just blessing them. We did that for several months until the curse sort of got off of us. Wow.
Justin Forman Bill, what incredible perspective. I mean, when you're talking about the real life warfare that we're going up against, it's real. And I love what Mark is talking about, is we have to start with these eyes to see. Mark, you talk about some of this in your book, and it's a really powerful analogy, I think that you talk about just how we've lost that edge. We've lost living on the edge. Can you share a little bit about that story and how it relates?
Mark Batterson Yeah, it's a short version. I was in the Galapagos Islands, closest thing to the Garden of Eden left on Earth. And I mean, there were these pelicans that look like prehistoric pterodactyls kind of circling our boat dive bombing into the ocean, coming back with breakfast in their beat. These iguanas that were larger than life with swimming with some sea lions. It was the most exotic lake immersed in nature. And after that trip, I came home and we took our young children to the National Zoo. And we were walking through the ape house and there were these gorillas behind 400 pound plexiglass. And this thought kind of went through my mind. I wonder if churches do to people what zoos do to animals if we don't try to tame them in the name of Jesus, kind of mitigate the risk, removed the danger. But then I went back to the Gospels. And Bill, kind of like your encounter with that story about the banquet. Like I'm reading Jesus, say I'm sending you out like sheep among wolves. And if you read that literally like that does not sound safe at all. That sounds pretty dangerous. But it's this idea of when do we think Jesus called us to go to safe places, to work with nice people, to do easy things like this is not the gospel. We invade dark places with the light and love of Jesus. Or like Bill said, we circle people's homes who are cursing us and we speak blessing. And so there's something powerful when that happens. And I write a little bit in the book about this idea of rewilding, which is an ecological term. But, you know, I read the Gospels and Jesus basically took his disciples on like a three year camping, hiking trip. They climb mountains, they walk beaches. And he spent a lot of time in the wilderness. And so I think the church could afford a little bit of rewilding and, you know, in the book and maybe spell out some of the natural theology that maybe we've lost. The Celtic Christians talked about thin places where Heaven touches Earth, and the original House of God was not a church building or a synagogue. It was Bethel. It was an open heaven. It was a place where when you get into nature, you get into touch with nature's God. And so you know what I'm trying to do there? Listen, guys, I love indoor plumbing. Hallelujah. I love air conditioning. Like, I'll take more of it. I love the conveniences of modern life, but something can be lost if we live a very insulated life. And part of what I'm poking at in the book and I actually write about the two foot field trip that God takes Abraham on, and I won't take time to delineate that. But when he was inside his tent, he was staring at an eight foot ceiling, was putting an eight foot ceiling on what God can do. And God says, Go outside, look up and count the stars. And I think that's what this book is beckoning people to do, Like go outside, look up, count the stars. The sky is the limit. This is a God who can do immeasurably more than all we can ask or imagine. And I think if you're an entrepreneur like, man, you got to operate by faith and it's going to take some risks, but you have to get outside the tent, so to speak. You have to get outside the box. So hopefully the book is just part of spurring people on to that part of the spiritual journey.
Justin Forman I love the language you use, Mark, in the book where you talk about the idea of never lose this holy curiosity. There's just something about that term. There's just something about that where you take that childlike word, you put that adjective in front of it, and it just changes it in a different perspective.
Mark Batterson Yeah. And I here's what's fun, because, Bill, you and I are just meeting, but I can tell you have that childlike wonder that that holy curiosity. And by the way, it comes from Albert Einstein. I even have his picture hanging in my office because that was page 755 for the biography I read at 21 years of age. He said, Never lose a holy curiosity. And it changed my life. It's the juxtaposition of those two words. And I think curiosity is a gift that God has given. To us. So honestly, I find almost everything and everyone endlessly interesting, and that's part of what it means, I think, to rediscover a million little miracles.
Justin Forman That's so good, Bill. I wanted to throw it over to you because when I think about people that have just contagious, infectious joy and this childlike wonder, both as a pastor and a business people that you guys are at the top of the list because I just love the joy and the consistency of which you bring that energy to it. You've done that bill so many times. Everybody sees you at a conference, an event. They seen the video. There is just this joy and childlike wonder how do you do that? In the midst of reports and details and bank statements and everything else that eats us as an entrepreneur, what has helped you keep that joy and childlike wonder?
Bill Job Well, there was a day like in manufacturing where I've lived most of my business life. There's a phrase that says you need to know what to measure and how often to measure it. And the Lord spoke to me one day he goes, just to let you know I am measuring the level of joy in your life and I'm measuring it every second. And I was blown away by the concept. I had no respect for the role of joy. I just I honestly, I think I thought it was kind of effeminate or optional or something. And so I realized when he's measuring it every second of my life, he's serious about me having some. And then I discovered if I don't have it, I can ask for it and I immediately receive it because it's rooted in my identity with the Father, with Jesus and the spirit. It's non circumstantial, so I could be in a horrible circumstance and still have true joy. So I developed a joy meter and I go from 1 to 10 and anybody can just close their eyes and read their meter and find out where where they are. And if they're not where they want to be, just say, Hey, Papa, I don't have enough joy right now. I need a little bit more. I'm not stepping out of the house and tell them up to an eight. I won't be prepared for the day. And so I found that to be just a simple, super easy way to actually have a significant amount of true joy. And what you get with that is strength. It's unexpected, but the joy of the Lord actually is my strength. And the other thing that I notice is the enemy. Let's say that he can tempt me to be angry at someone and add my joy meter. That gives me up to about a five. It feels a little bit good to be angry with somebody in a wicked way, but if I'm leaving the house at eight and the enemy offers me a five, he is so easy to ignore because I am not giving up my aid to accept what he offers. It's just a bad deal. And then the other thing that helped me a lot was I did a word study on the phrase kingdom of God, and there's 140 or so references, and I wanted to see what inhibits us, what keeps us out of it. And there's two things that were repeated that I noticed right away. One is wealth. It's hard for the rich to enter, but the simple solution to that is from an identity point of view, just be a steward. If you're a steward, you cannot be wealthy. And that just takes that whole thing away and it makes it really easy. But the other thing, and this is something that people rarely guess the other hurdle was unless you become like a child. And so I just asked him, Lord, why did you say that about kids? Like, what are you getting at? And he said, Well, how did children learn? And I immediately saw a picture of my elementary school and then a big fenced in playground. And he said, Some things you can learn in the classroom, but other things you can only learn on the playground. And the kingdom is primarily playground. And so you must be childlike to take the risk and try the things like I was in a hotel bus going from O'Hare to a hotel and I noticed the driver didn't lift my suitcase up and I asked him how he's doing. He goes, I have a really, really bad back problem. Had been four days ago. And I said, I noticed that, you know, you were reluctant to pick it up. And then I heard the Lord say, Well, you are a Christian. And so there's just the two of us in the bus. And while we're driving long ago, he demurred, If I pray for you while you're driving, I might close my eyes, but you don't need to close your eyes at all. And so I just prayed for his back. It felt playful. If I wasn't willing to be playful, I probably wouldn't have done it. If I had to analyze and understand it, I wouldn't. But it was just a fun little thing to do. And the next morning I got to the bus to go back to the airport and he just goes nuts. He said, You won't believe what happened as soon as you got out of the bus. I would just totally healed. I called my mom and said, Hey, mom, this crazy guy in the bus bravery. And I'm just like, This is so fun. But if you don't take the chance, but if you take it like a child, you'll be much more courageous than you think you will.
Justin Forman Gosh, I love that. Gosh, I love that. Just that. Take it. Like a child not questioning, just observing it. The wonder, the curiosity of it. Like we've been so beaten down by it and it's been pulled out of us, you know, as some of the things Marx mentioned, maybe it's been, you know, pent up in us. We've been walled in. But like when you start talking, when you start having that conversation, just the joy. I don't know why is it that we've lost sight of like the this our faith is a get to not a got to. Why is it that we've lost sight of this like just the joy. It's contagious, it's infectious. The got to feel so much an obligation. Why would we why would we go to the got to instead of get to where are we getting distracted?
Mark Batterson Yeah. Well, amen to everything Bill just said. And you're Joy meter is doing pretty good today, Bill.
Bill Job You boosted up two points when I do. So.
Mark Batterson I love it. I love it. Well, it's so fun because Sir Francis Bacon, who came up with the scientific method, said that we are God's play fellows and they're this grand game that we're in with God. And I think, I mean, that's the title of chapter two in the book, Rediscovering that playfulness, this idea of the Hebrew word tov. And God saw that it was tov seven times in Genesis one. This just childlike delight. And I think what happens is, let's be honest, guys, life. If you aren't careful, it'll suck the joy out of you and you can lose it and never get it back. And here's the challenge. I do think Joy might be our primary apologetic, because if you don't have joy, I don't really want what you have. So how do we rediscover that? Well, Joy isn't getting what you want. It's appreciating what you have. And part of that then is just today is a miracle. You're a miracle. Life is a miracle. Eyesight is a miracle. Hearing is the miracle. Everything is a miracle. And we're right back where we started. It's the T.S. Eliot. You know, it's to arrive where you started and see that place for the first time. And so I think Joy is it's rediscovering the God who is bigger than big, closer than close together, than good. And learning to appreciate every good and perfect gift comes from the father above a man.
Justin Forman What a word. What a word. As we come to a close here, just such a reminder. You know, the other thing I'm struck by is just how fun it is to have these conversations between entrepreneurs and pastors and to come to the table and to have these conversations. There's so much more that we have alike than we are different. We miss it. We miss those moments as we're all being driven by mission and always on and always going to all these different directions. But when we sit down, we have this conversation and say some of the very same things we can be learning from to take risk, to discover the joy, to have the curiosity. And it just such a good reminder. You know, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention to you guys one of the things that we're working on, we haven't announced this yet, is that we are having an online event here this spring, in February to do just that, to bring pastors and entrepreneurs together to the same table, to have this conversation of in this crazy time, in this crazy situation that this world is in, when the the typical hero that we've turned to in the past may have changed, it's maybe not as much the musician, the athlete, the politician. We're turning to business leaders more and more because we know we were shoulder to shoulder alongside each other. And they're just really it is an opportunity. So pastors and entrepreneurs.org is a website coming soon that will talk about that event, talk about resources, talk about videos that Mark and Bill have participated in and how we can equip the church together. And one of those resources is a video called Dear Entrepreneur that you can find work in, just praying a prayer just over entrepreneurs in this moment. And so obviously, we're not going to go right into that message in particular. But Mark, could you do us a favor? Just close this time here together, praying for entrepreneurs, praying for this moment, this movement and this conversation and the opportunities for joy that we have in front of us.
Mark Batterson Yeah, be happy, too, Lord. Thank you. Thank you for these creative minds that You've given to us. And we want to have the mind of Christ. We aren't content with good ideas. We want God ideas. We desperately need your anointing. We need the Holy Spirit to give us those ideas. And then we need the courage and the faith to blood, sweat and tears. Put them into practice. And so, Lord, I pray for those that maybe are a little discouraged in their journey, experience a few setbacks, maybe even a failure. Lord, I look back on a failed church plant before we planted. This church, and I'm grateful you're the guy to dust this off. Picks us up, gives us a second chance. And so, Lord, we pray that you would help us to write better books, start better businesses, produce better films to do whatever it is that you called us to do with the help of the Holy Spirit for your glory in Jesus name. Amen.
Justin Forman Amen. Amen. Great to be with both of you guys. Grateful for your passion. Enjoy your enthusiasm for this. Good to be with you.
Bill Job Great to meet you, Mark.
Mark Batterson Thanks so much. God bless.
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