Episode 281 - How to Develop a Prayer Life (That Doesn't Stink) with Peter Greer
Can we just be honest with ourselves and admit that, for most of us, our prayer lives stink?
We all know we’re supposed to pray.
We’ve read where Paul tells us to pray without ceasing. Maybe we’ve even tried instilling new habits, only to have them fall apart shortly after we test them out.
It might even feel defeating at this point–as if prayer is just another task we can’t work into our chaotic schedules and the regular ups and downs of entrepreneurship.
Is it even possible for entrepreneurs to develop a healthy prayer life? And… is it even worth it?
Today on the show, Peter Greer is going to help give us some clear guidance around these questions based on the findings of his new book Lead with Prayer that he co wrote with Cameron Doolittle and Ryan Skoog.
Peter is a longtime friend of the movement who has been featured on the podcast, the conference, and video series in the past, but over the last three years, he has been researching the spiritual habits of world-changing leaders. And in this episode, he’s going to share some of his findings with us so that we can develop prayer rhythms that fit our lives.
All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific advice for any individual or organization.
Episode Transcript
Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.
Joseph Honescko: All right. Can we just be honest with ourselves and admit that for most of us, our prayer lives stink? We all know we're supposed to pray. We've read where Paul tells us to pray without ceasing. Maybe we've even tried instilling new habits, only to have them fall apart shortly after we test them out. It might even feel defeating at this point, as if prayer is just another task we can't work in to our chaotic schedules or the regular ups and downs of entrepreneurship. We might find ourselves asking, is it even possible for entrepreneurs to develop a healthy prayer life? And is it even worth it? Today on the show, Peter Greer is going to help give us some clear guidance around these questions. Based on his new book, lead With prayer, that he co-wrote with Cameron Doolittle and Ryan Skoog. Peter is a longtime friend of the movement who's been featured on the podcast, The Conference and video series in the past, but over the last three years, he has been researching the spiritual habits of world changing leaders, and in this episode, he's going to share some of his findings with us so that we too, can develop prayer rhythms that fit our lives. I'm Joey Honescko, and you're listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Let's get into it.
Joseph Honescko: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. I'm Joey Honescko. I'm here with my co-host Justin Forman. Justin, how are you doing, man?
Justin Forman: Great. So how are you?
Joseph Honescko: I'm good man, it is good week. We did, this will premiere in about two weeks, but we did the faith driven investor conference this week. And yeah, that was a joy.
Justin Forman: Indeed it was a ride. I mean, overall, about 100 locations, so many major cities around the world. I think it was a really defining moment for the conversation to move forward. And man, what an encouragement was for our team to see that impact spreading.
Joseph Honescko: Yeah, it's super cool. And our guest today, Peter Greer, has spoken at the conference before and he's been on the podcast. So Peter, welcome back.
Peter Greer: Thanks so much, Joey and Justin. Great to be back. And the FDI conference. I was at the local watch party and it just prompted amazing conversation. So so grateful for this community.
Joseph Honescko: Yeah thanks, Peter. That's awesome. So I do want to dive right in here. Just give us a sense, why do so many people and entrepreneurs specifically struggle to have a strong prayer life? And why is it so important that we don't just give up and throw in the towel?
Peter Greer: Yeah, and there certainly are a lot of studies that can answer that question of what is the challenge for busy entrepreneurs to really have a vibrant life of prayer, but maybe just speaking more personally? When Ryan Skoog asked me to participate in this project, my initial response was no way, Ryan, no way. I was not someone that I would say had this deep and vibrant prayer life, and I probably was like many, that the challenge every single day is there is more to do than time to do it. And there was a disconnect between what I said I believed about prayer and what I actually did. There was a gap between those two things, but I am enormously grateful for the privilege that it has been to go through this process to look at habits, practices of prayers from global leaders. And I guess your other part of your question on why I focus on this, and I think part of the reason is because it is possible to make progress. And I would say every single one of us that participated in the research of this, our prayer lives have been radically transformed as a result of this process. Together, learning from the global church, learning from a variety of leaders, finding similarity in the practices that we heard. And then this is not a book to be read, but this is something to try and just the exploration of new prayer practices. And I think for all of us to say there is less of a gap today than there was when we started this project, between what we said about prayer and what we actually do. And it has, yeah, had this incredible impact. So, so grateful for Ryan Skoog, Cameron Doolittle, Jill [...] and this, opportunity to learn from a remarkable set of global leaders.
Joseph Honescko: Yeah, I love this idea of being with one another, learning and going through this process together. You talked about that kind of journey that you went through. And so I would love to just hear you said, people can change. What has helped you in this process develop a stronger prayer life as a leader?
Peter Greer: Yeah. I mean, the statistics are really clear. You look at the life time prayer habits of leaders and most people, as influence goes up, prayer fullness goes down. For most people, there is this growing disconnect between the ability to be in positions of leader and devoted time practices of deep, abiding in Christ. And what does that lead to? What does that lead to? Well, one of the other fascinating studies by Robert Clinton was that of individuals that didn't finish well. Every single one of them had long ago stopped having any sense of a personal or vibrant prayer life. And so there is something powerful here. There's something significant here about how prayer grounds us. And if we think that we can do our work in our own strength, in our own ability, we either have an overinflated sense of our own ability and importance, or we have too small of a mission that we're going after. If we are going after significant kingdom work, if we really believe that what we're doing is something that without God's divine intervention, it is not possible, not alone. Yeah, we're not going to have this vibrant prayer life. So I think for us and my own story is just this recognition. When I would travel around the world and I would see the vibrancy of prayer life, when I would see the time and intention, when I would join in with my global brothers and sisters. There was a different level of prioritization and prayer, and one of the early interviews that we had was a woman who's been working in a war zone for her career, and she said early on, I didn't have any money. And so I decided to tithe my time. And so she said I would spend a little over two hours every day in prayer, because that's what I had at that moment. And she said, that has been the habit that has been consistent in my life, and that is what has fueled my life of service. And again, her and so many others just taught us what it looks like to grow from this sense of, I feel like I should pray, too. I can't believe we get to have the privilege of prayer. And it really does shape us. And I believe it shapes the cultures of the places where we work as well. There is so much more mystery, so much more depth. And it has again been the joy of the last few years to really dive deep and to put these prayer practices, yeah, into my own life and watch the impact that they're having.
Justin Forman: I think that's fascinating. Peter. I think what you talk about the data and then you think about entrepreneurs and you wonder, like, why do entrepreneurs struggle so much with prayer? Maybe it's just a hunch. Maybe it's just a feeling. It could be right or wrong. There isn't maybe data here yet to back this, but it feels like. I mean, entrepreneurs were so much doers we're builders. We have the drive to do things, some things that people might never say could be done. And we have the ability to break down those barriers. But if we step back for a moment, I think that what's interesting, what you're saying is, is that our greatest strength is becoming our greatest weakness. That motor that drives that independent spirit kind of creates this false view that we miss the idea that we're designed to be dependent, like it feels like that. That's kind of what you're hitting on right there, isn't it? The more that we develop almost as entrepreneurial strength, it actually becomes a real weakness for us.
Peter Greer: Oh, that's so well said. And I think one of the interesting kind of quotes that we had early on when we were talking about this issue is that, Robert Clinton, he said this is part of another piece that he wrote, but he said in, in our work, the tendency is to rely on competency, one's ability to do things rather than primarily on God. And so we're doers. We rely on our strength. We rely on our abilities. And yeah, maybe, maybe it is true what Jesus said. That apart for me, it's not even you can do very little, it's not apart for me. You'll get frustrated in your work. It is apart for me. You can do nothing. So this sense of what would it look like if in our work, we did it from a place of grounding and abiding in Christ? And I just believe that would change everything.
Joseph Honescko: In that same vein, in the book, you say that praying leaders have quit worshiping at the altars of achievement and have shattered the illusion of their self-sufficiency and man, when I hear words like altars of achievement and self-sufficiency, my entrepreneurial bells are just going off here. So how do we get to this place of bringing our achievement, bringing our self-sufficiency to the altar of Jesus instead of worshiping on the altars of our achievement?
Peter Greer: Maybe it's just being captivated by a little more understanding of who it is that we're talking to. In light of, what God has done in creating this world, what God has done, do any of our greatest accomplishments, really seem all that significant? And and so maybe we need to have a exploration, maybe a little more understanding of who we are praying to. And I think that changes our prayers. The more we understand the greatness of God, the more that we understand just how far beyond us, beyond our abilities, beyond our even ability to understand. I think that causes us to come with a different spirit of humility, a different spirit of excitement, to see what is it that God might do in our day, in our lives, in our organizations, but recognizing that for any real significant change, it's just not going to be because we did it in our own strength, in in our own way. So, I don't know, maybe a little more understanding of a God who created the mountains and the seas and the birds and all of that is the same God that is living and active, and that we have the incredible privilege of being in relationship with. That just is mind blowing, and I think really does change the way that we lead, more humility, more kind of excitement to listen well and to see what is God doing and how can we join in that.
Justin Forman: When we talk about prayer, Peter, how much of this is finding not only the right direction that you're talking about, making sure we're praying the right things and seeing prayer as opportunity to commune with God instead of always asking for outcomes. But one of the things that strikes me, so my wife and I, we've on fitness concepts over the years, some personal training studios, and people always ask this question, you know, what workout routine works best? And you say, well, it's got to work with your schedule first. You know, it doesn't almost matter what happens during the workout if you don't have it schedule to make sure that the workout happens. How much of this is us being intentional to schedule and develop this rhythm, almost at least to the point where then it becomes so natural.
Peter Greer: Justin that's one of the other interviews that we had was with the chaplain for the Miami Dolphins, and he talked about that training regiment that these professional athletes go through. I mean, laser focus looking, how can they improve in all of these outputs? And they don't show up at the gym and be like, hey, I sure would like to, you know, do a couple reps here. No, there is a plan. There is a structure. And Terry's piece was how can we make sure that we're applying that to our prayer life, to our spiritual habits? And John Mark Comer said something like, if it doesn't make it onto your calendar, it's just not a priority on that. And so we put on our calendar what matters. And this is nothing new. This is what for centuries, for over 1500 years, they would call a rule of life. This is the plan. And there were certain prompts throughout the day that would cause individuals to say, this is a moment to pray. And then in all of the great city centers, what do they have? They have bell towers. And what are bell towers? Initially, they are designed to remind individuals this is a significant moment or throughout the day. This is a moment to pause and to pray. And we have lost that in many ways of that level of structure or intentionality. So in many ways, that's been the fun of working on this is just to say, what does it look like? How can I have more intentionality around what it looks like to have prayers that I weave throughout the day, to have certain times, to have certain moments, and to create essentially a rule of life, a set of prayer practices that we believe will shape our hearts, will shape our organizations, will shape, the work that we do. So I love that example, Justin. And I think that is the right one of saying, if it matters to us, let's create the plan. And then I love what Dallas Willard said. But he said that the great way to know if, habit has become an idol is how do we feel when we don't do it. And so hopefully there's lots of grace in the midst of that, but still saying, here's a guide, here's something that we're going to do because it matters. And I would say for anyone that has not done this, try it, try it for the next 30 days. Just try it, try some different prayer practices. And if you want a real simple example, we put it on the website for free so you can create your own kind of habits. Rule of life. Get some examples. And I would just say try it for the next 30 days and see what happens in your life and in your heart.
Joseph Honescko: Yeah, that's great Peter. And one thing that's really cool is we actually have pulled a couple entrepreneurs and had them send us clips of their own prayer life, in their own prayer rhythms. And so we're going to cut to one of those here in just second, and then we'll be back to talk with you some more.
John Knicely: I'm John Knicely, an entrepreneur, talking about my prayer life. Today I'm the founder of Story on Purpose, located in Saint Louis, Missouri. And as I think about prayer, I was really influenced by a client that we were doing a project with. It was an 80 year old. We were doing a legacy film to capture and preserve their values and legacy. I knew he was a Christian, so I was not surprised when, before the first interview, he asked if he could open in prayer and I thought it was great. Well, the next day we showed up for our second day of shooting. And my creative director, who at that point wasn't super vocal about faith related things, said, Hey John, we should start today in prayer, just like Don did. And in fact we should pray before everything we do. And I was like, yes, absolutely. So that was about three years ago, and we have started to do that as a team. And then myself, you know, going into any meeting, I am praying, Lord, let your will be done in this. So this is just a mental prayer that I go through in my head, really out of out of desperation. Right. So as an entrepreneur, the struggle is real and I really need and want to invite God into it.
Joseph Honescko: There's a handful of entrepeneur specifically in the book. You guys talk about David Green. Terry Looper, what were some of the insights that were useful as entrepreneurs are thinking about how to develop their own prayer lives?
Peter Greer: Actually, some of the interviews we just had more than we could include in the book. There were so many others that didn't make it in. But I guess the major takeaway for me was there is far more possibility to create cultures of prayer, even in. It's not just for nonprofit organizations. There is far more ability to create prayer habits practices in a variety of different enterprises. And one of the individuals, Andre Mann, remember his interview, but he was talking about how, you know, very few people, if they're going through a challenging time and you say, I would love to pray for you. How can I pray for you? There are very few that would not appreciate that gesture. And so some of it is just being on the lookout for those moments, those open doors and saying, how can I pray for you and, and other individuals created these prayer groups on that in, again, some fortune 500 companies to some very different organizations. And what I love too, is that if it matters, there typically is time, money and space that you allocate towards it. And so if we believe that prayer matters, again, I think about some of those examples that you just said. They allocated time, money and space. Some of them had the physical. This is our prayer area that is reserved for this. Some people said we are going to pay you for the amount of hours that you are going to spend in prayer. That is on the clock time and the International Justice Mission. I had the opportunity to participate in some of their prayer practices and and they have quantified it is a multi-million dollar investment in prayer. If you look at how much time they spend, and it's because they believe that it matters. So, so many great examples, but yet time, money and space where the consistent themes for the facilitation of prayer.
Justin Forman: Peter, one of the thing. And that's you were reflecting about the book launch and you were talking about things. You talked about the corporate nature of prayer, and you're alluding to it right here is, is that in the church today, we often see it as a private act. I think you made the point about even just a Google search of images draws up an individual image. When you talk about that, how have we drifted from the corporate act of it from such an individual side?
Peter Greer: There's a place for that, right? And if we look at the sermon on the Mount, Jesus talks about going in the room and in private. And in some ways there is that sense that perhaps we have gone to only pray in that sort of a context and have missed out that there are a lot of other passages of Scripture that talk about the corporate nature. And isn't it interesting? Even when the disciples asked Jesus, he didn't say, teach me to pray. He said, teach us to pray. And throughout history there is this corporate expression of prayer. So, yeah, I mean, I would say my favorite part of writing the book was the interviews, but then also the opportunity to put into practice some of these different habits with Ryan and Cameron and Jill and the experience of going through these prayer practices together. There's a beautiful sense of, maybe taking our prayer closets and going into the prayer boardrooms, and that's seeing it as either or, but looking for those ways to still have. Yeah, a deep sense of personal prayer and to also look for those opportunities that we can join in with others.
Justin Forman: So we talked about the schedule. We've talked about the idea of making this commonplace. What does that look like? I want you to take us into this idea of like, how do we check our heart as we pray? You know, we're preparing for a video shoot and project that we're doing with Dorian Gray. And he had asked this question about prayer, and he said he phrased it this way. He said, If God answered all of our prayers, would our life become more holy? And I kind of use that as a check to say like. If God gave you everything that you would ask for. Would that lead to exactly the outcome you really, really want? How do we check to make sure that we're not just praying for outcomes or not praying for the wrong things?
Peter Greer: Yeah, we had, conversation with Joni Eareckson Tada, and she became a quadriplegic when she was not even 20 years old. And she has lived with chronic pain every day of her life. And I don't think I have ever met a more spirit filled individual. It was a moment that I will treasure for decades to come, but one of the things that she said Justin was, she said, when individuals ask me to pray for them, I do pray for what they ask, right? And of course, we are going to present our requests to God. But she says, I'm not going to pray for that more than 20% of the total time. She said the remaining 80%, I'm going to pray that in the midst of the pain, that God does an incredible work, that in the midst of this, they would have a deeper sense and that God would use this situation in their life and in the lives of others. And so she spends 80% of the time not praying for that issue, but that God would be at work in it. And I think that is the way to really shape it, to still to present. Here's Lord, you know, this is what I should think it would be best. But to have a level of trust and a level of prayer that says and even if you don't, I know you are still very capable of doing incredible good in the midst of it. And so I think for all of us, maybe our prayers are not just for the issue, but for God to use it to be in the midst of it, including in the valleys, including in the pain. And just one fascinating thing from one of the most famous psalms, Psalm of David, Psalm 23. It starts out saying, the Lord is my shepherd. It starts by saying that this is third person. It starts by talking about the Lord. But, you know, it shifts about halfway through and it shifts from third person to first person. And that happens in the valley of the shadow of the death. And there it goes from the Lord to you are with me. And this like personal and powerful experience of the nearness of Christ. That is not when things are going great, but in the midst of pain. And that's my experience to it. Change it from the Lord to you when we are really going through it. And again Joni said, Heaven and bliss. It is not found when everything is going well. It is found in the midst of the pain and realizing that Christ is there with you. That is what changes everything.
Justin Forman: Yeah, that's such a fascinating thought. There is. It's just not to look to escape the pain, but to almost absorb it all and to take it all in and to not numb it, to not run from that. It feels like when you look at Scripture, you can find stories that even as Christ goes to the cross, there's absorbing it all. And like it's not to make such a drastic comparison, but there is an element of this here that we have so westernized our prayer to escape it. But man, how much better would we be if we just paused in that moment and said, God, give me the ability to absorb everything you're wanting me to absorb? Here, let me take this all in. It's so contrary to our nature. But man, what an opportunity it might be to learn more.
Peter Greer: Justin this is why it was so helpful to do this project and listening to the global church. This was not just interviewing some North American incredible leaders. And I'm so thankful for those interviews. But several of the real paradigm shifting conversations about prayer happen from the global church. And it was in those conversations that we heard exactly what you were just saying, that it was not just a prayer for. Here's what I would like in my timeline, because I think I know best what you should do. And that's even echoed in the prayers of Paul. You know, Paul very rarely, if ever, prayed for a change in circumstance for those that he was praying for. He had different prayers. And it wasn't for rescue. It wasn't for that. It was for God to be at work in the midst, to strengthen their faith in the midst of trial, not just to be suddenly parachuted out of it.
Joseph Honescko: Yeah, I love that you mentioned the global nature. One of the great gifts that I've been able to partake in a couple times is every Tuesday we do this virtual prayer with entrepreneurs around the world, and it's at 9:30 a.m. eastern time, and it's just a zoom room that's open up and. There's dozens of these entrepreneurs that are here praying with one another, and it's an awesome time of devotion and prayer. And I think to your point that that global nature and seeing what the body of believers is going through around the world is such a key thing to shape us, and also how we can minister to each other just as the body. The book is incredible with the amount of resources that you guys have prepared beforehand and all these great tools to get people started. What are those things that someone who's listening, who's convinced, man, I'm ready to change my prayer life. What's something they can do tomorrow to get started here?
Peter Greer: Yeah. I mean, this is in some way just the fun of this is there are more prayer practices that are outlined that any one individual could do. So the goal is to try it, to see what works. For some, it's going to be finding new life in ancient prayers. And maybe following a liturgy was not something that individuals do, but maybe that is really helpful. And for other individuals, maybe it's going to be much more listening, or maybe it's going to be like Brother Lawrence and practicing the presence in the day to day in the mundane. And for some, maybe it's going to be to create that time and space to pray with others and just put it on the calendar and have that. I don't think it matters. Joey, what I think does matter is are we putting it into practice? And here's the great thing. We see this throughout history and we see this throughout Scripture is there are movements that happen, but typically they are downstream from a commitment to prayer. And I just believe if we really want to see, even with the faith driven entrepreneur, if we want to see a movement, if we want to see thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, it is going to be impossible without God's Spirit at work and without a collective commitment to prayer. So I just think I'm so excited. What would happen if there were a movement of people that said, in our day, in our time, we're going to prioritize, we're going to practice prayer. And I just think that we can love throughout history, and we can look throughout Scripture and we can say movements do happen, incredible things do happen. But typically they are downstream from repentance and prayer. And I just I get excited about what might happen in the years to come.
Justin Forman: Well, gosh, after that, Joey, that's going to sound like a pitch or something like a product placement, but I just want to take a moment to thank and to appreciate the faithfulness of the people that have been gathering for that, time of prayer that happens every week with other faith driven entrepreneurs. And the way that Joey was talking about how it unites people's hearts from so many different countries around the globe that come together for that is a gift to see. But it has alluded to that behind in front of, around whatever it is. All of the above, is a dose of prayer, just a covering in prayer. And so that, if you haven't had a chance to experience that, would really encourage you to well, as Joey mentioned, it is just a treat. It's a gift. It's not a got to it's an incredible get to to experience that. And then one of the things that had also come out of that group was this the desire to create a 24 / seven kind of time of prayer, that there's somebody from the movement and some ministry, some organization, some entrepreneur is always lifting up the movement, the conversation, this idea at any time around the world. And so that is a calendar that I think is in the process of being started and coming together. And so if that's something that you would want to sign up for a time to commit to praying for God's will to be done. Not in an organization, not in a ministry, not in a particular business, but really his Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. And it would just be about in this bigger, broader movement in God's name to be made famous. So those are two things that, gosh, that just sounded like a commercial right after what Peter said. But it's important and would not want our listeners to miss out on that kind of an opportunity.
Shannon: Hey, I'm Shannon, I'm an American living in Tallinn, Estonia, and I'm an entrepreneur. And to keep me on track with my prayer chats, I have created a prayer calendar to sit above my kitchen sink. So keep me on task with my prayers and neighbor. I'm praying for my big goals. The people in my family keeps my mind focused on something good, even when I'm doing the dishes.
Joseph Honescko: Peter. We're hearing these different people's habits in their lives, in the way that they are setting themselves up for success. By planning ahead, by creating these rhythms and habits. We're going to go to our closing question here in just a few minutes, which is we ask every guest about what they're learning in Scripture right now. But I'd love if you feel comfortable just sharing what your own prayer habits are, what your own prayer life looks like, how you've made those intentional choices in your own life.
Peter Greer: I remember distinctly when we had a day of prayer for Hope international, and we were given a time to spend, and I could not get my head or my heart to slow down. I just had the internal RPMs were going too fast, and I think it was in that moment that I realized for the first time, I have a really hard time in prayer. I have a really hard time slowing down, and one of the habits, one of the practices that has just helped me in that process of slowing down is to change my physical posture. If I'm praying while still running around, it is really hard to get to a place of more peace, more calm, and it is really hard to listen well. So one of the very simple prayer practices that I've started to really enjoy is the physical posture of kneeling. That is not something that I grew up doing. That is not something that was part of my upbringing, but it has been incredible to realize that the physical posture shapes the way that we are able to come before the God of the universe, and this incredible gift and this incredible mystery of prayer. So the simple act of kneeling, nothing new, but to rediscover the power of that has really been transformational in my own prayer life.
Joseph Honescko: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. It's such a joy every time to get to talk to you. And we're so grateful for all the things you've contributed to the movement. We loved to end every show. Asking our guests what they're learning from Scripture doesn't have to be today, but something in the recent past that the Lord is stirring on your heart through his scripture.
Peter Greer: Yeah, I have to say quite simply, that question, that request from the disciples said, Lord, teach us to pray. Jesus answered it in that moment, and I believe Jesus continues to answer it today as we continue to say, Lord, teach us to pray.
Joseph Honescko: Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn't have to be. We've got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms, and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There's no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at Faith Driven entrepreneur.org.
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