Episode 261 - Optimism is Good for Business with Jon Gordon

Entrepreneurs are all too familiar with disappointment. 

We battle negativity on a daily basis. We face criticism and fight comparison. And yet, you probably desire to inspire your employees, your stakeholders, and clients with the vision you have for your endeavor. How can you stay positive and enthusiastic in the midst of loss and rejection? 

Today’s guest, Jon Gordon is known as the ‘king of positivity,’ and he’s joining us today to talk about the impact that positive leadership, positive teams can have on your business. 

Jon Gordon is a husband, father, and author. His best-selling books and talks

have inspired millions of readers and audiences around the world. He is the author of The timeless classic The Energy Bus, The Carpenter, Training Camp, The Power of Positive Leadership, The Power of a Positive Team, and his latest The One Truth. 

When he’s not running through airports or speaking to businesses, hospitals or schools, you can find him playing pickleball and taking long walks which are when he gets most of his ideas. He joins us to share about the power of optimism in a way that will inspire you to take action and start applying these concepts. 

If you like this episode, be sure to leave a review, click the follow button, and share the show with others.

All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific advice for any individual or organization.

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Episode Transcript

Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.

Rusty Rueff: So, William, when you woke up this morning, what level of positivity if there was a positivity ladder, where were you on the ladder?

William Norvell: Oh, I'm going to be pretty high today, which may be shocking, but here's why. My wife and I have violated the children. Don't sleep in your bed policy. And so my five year old and my three year old just they sleep on us every night. And so we we may be terrible parents. I don't know. Maybe Jon is going to tell me about that here in a minute. But the coolest thing ever is my little three year old little girl. Every morning when she wakes up, she crawls over, my wife comes right up to my ear and goes, I love you. And then whispers in my ear. So I woke up pretty good today. I was pretty positive.

Rusty Rueff: That's pretty good. I did not wake up as positive as you woke up this morning. There was kind of a long night and got up and I had a run that I was going to do this morning. A lot on my mind wanted to be prepared for this. And, you know, so I would say my positivity ladder was about halfway up, about halfway up. But whether yours was high. Mine was halfway up. Our guest today is going to tell us how to go all the way up to the top of the ladder and how to be positive even in times when, you know, as entrepreneurs, we've got rejection, we've got questions, we've got all of those things. But Jon Gordon is here with us. If you're on this podcast and you have not heard of Jon's name, then you're living under a rock someplace because he's a bestselling author. He's our fantastic speaker and we are so honored and privileged to have you with us, Jon. So welcome into the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast.

Jon Gordon: Great to be with you guys. It's exciting to talk to you.

Rusty Rueff: It's just great to have you with us. So William and myself and Henry is going to be joining us as well on the podcast. You know, what we would like to do is just jump in, have you speak directly to our audience who are thinking, you know, how can I be positive in this crazy, current, unpredictable market that I'm in? And with so many things swirling around us. So just jump in and give us your best wisdom to get the conversation going.

Jon Gordon: Well, as a Christian, we are meant to be positive and we're supposed to be positive. We are supposed to be the people of faith. And that's where real positivity comes from. It comes from our faith. It comes in our belief, it comes in our trust in God that no matter what circumstance we're in, that he is greater than our circumstance, that our faith is greater, and that the circumstance doesn't define us, that inside of us, God gives us the power to overcome our circumstance. And so you're going to face challenges. You will face adversity. You will face negativity, but you can rise above it with optimism and belief. And this is not like fake positivity. It's not about seeing the world through rose colored glasses. It's like knowing that you have the power to overcome the thorns. It's not about ignoring reality. It's about maintaining optimism, belief and faith in order to create a better reality. And, you know, as a person who is a man of faith and a Christian entrepreneur myself, I'm often actually surprised at how many Christians are actually not optimistic and positive when our faith calls us to be that way. I call that being a Christian atheist because you actually act like there's no God when really you should trust in God in your circumstances and in your challenges. I remember opening up a restaurant, a second mortgage, my home, $20,000 in credit cards, and I was not a Christian at this point. And I was so fearful. I was terrified. I put everything on the line. And I remember that's where my faith was born. That's where I started to pray every single day and literally just pray to pray and cried out to God. I called them like Jerry Maguire's moment, God, show me the money. God, somehow, someway. Show me the money. And it's really where I saw God's faithfulness, where I remember saying, God provide for me and my family and I will do your work. It's incredible how God showed up in so many different ways. And, you know, when the pandemic hit, that's where my faith also grew the most, because I saw, again, his faithfulness once again, where I just turned to him and relied on him. I remember everything being shut down. I remember everything closing. I'm a writer and speaker. We do consulting and training and everything was closing. All our business was being shut down. No one was making money. And I used to let employees and I was looking at the ppp money of taking it from the government. And I applied for it and I'll never forget applying. And then literally I heard God say it wasn't like an audible voice, but it was like, rely on me, rely on me. And I went on my way. If I said, We can't take money from the government, God is saying rely on him. And so she understood. She was fully supportive and we did not take money and we relied on him. And it was the best year of my life financially as an author and speaker, believe it or not, that year during COVID. Again, seeing his faithfulness now, you might be saying, well, if you're listening to this, that's just you, Jon. You're fortunate. You're lucky. Now, I've gone through a lot of tough times. I've gone through many moments of almost being bankrupt. I used to be very negative and naturally negative. And I grew up in Long Island, New York, in a Jewish, Italian family. A lot of food, a lot of guilt, a lot of wine, a lot of whining. So I naturally struggle with it. My dad, a New York City police officer, undercover narcotics, that's who I grew up with. He saw the world is out to get you. You would get up in the morning Good morning dad, he'd say, What's so good about it? And when I started speaking, my dad said, I can't believe people pay you to speak. We pay you to shut up. When you were a kid, that was my dad. It was like Archie Bunker meets, you know, Al Bundy. And so growing up in that environment, in that family, I really struggled with negativity and pessimism and so forth. And it was really at 31 years old, losing my job during the dot.com crash and being fearful and anxious and worried and stressed out all the time and then taking it out of my wife in terms of just being negative to her, blaming her for why our life was not great and why I was not realizing my dreams. That literally was a defining moment where she said, If you don't change, we're over. And so I said, How could I turn this around? I wanted to change. And that began my journey. I decided to open up the restaurant. That's when I second mortgage. The home started to think, I want to write and speak. I'm going to do this. So I had to search for ways to be more positive.

Rusty Rueff: And you're in your early thirties at that time.

Jon Gordon: 31 - 31, so the greatest challenge of my life led to the greatest assignment of my life and taught me faith along the way. So I just want people to know when I share that, that my faith is born out of real life circumstances. And it actually comes from the real God who gives me the faith to believe.

Rusty Rueff: Thank you for sharing that, by the way. I mean, without understanding where someone's come from to where they are. It's hard for us sometimes to feel that genuineness and authenticity. So thank you so much for doing that. And where did this feeling of, you know, positivity could be the thing that I could really grasp on to and help others. When did that show up?

Jon Gordon: That happened when I was 31, when my wife threatened to leave me. And so I was researching ways that could be more positive. This was during the emerging field of positive psychology, because I wanted to be more positive. And so now I'm researching all these ideas and how I can be more positive. And I started to take a walk of gratitude every day. And the research shows you can't be stressed and thankful at the same time. So the more you're feeling grateful and the more you're feeling blessed, you will not feel stressed. And so doing that every day, day in and day out of gratitude, which eventually turned into prayer. And so then I started to pray. And doing that really helped me a lot. But what I realized in my journey was initially I was trying to be more positive based on my own self, my own positivity, which was noble and again, try to do it. It worked. I started to have some success, but it never got rid of the pit that I had in my stomach and never got rid of the angst that I truly felt. It ultimately did not go away, no matter how much I tried. Only when I gave my life to Jesus. At 35 years old, 2007 was I baptized only when I did that? Did the real change the inner work within me start to happen. And it's funny, we were supposed to do this podcast a while ago and then we've had some blips along the way. But my new book, The One Truth, just came out, and I don't think there's an accident that we're doing this now, because the one truth explains that the more you're one with God, the more you feel power and joy and peace and love and purpose, the more you feel separate from God, You feel disconnected, worried, anxious, chronically stressed. And the root for the Greek word of anxious means to separate and divide. And so when you feel anxious, you feel separate and divided with the negative thoughts. Do they separate and divide you? What is fear do separates and divide you. It makes you weak and Corinthians 6:17 says he was joined to the Lord as one spirit with him. As you become more one with God, one Spirit with God. His nature becomes your nature. His love becomes your love. His spirit starts to move through you and live through you. And that's what happened to me. So. So what I realized was my positivity wasn't enough on my own. I needed a greater source of positivity, the ultimate source. And once they started to tune into that tune, which is an acronym in the book, when I started to tune into God, that's when my life started to really change. And I discovered this. But initially was, I know I need to be more positive. So I start practicing these ideas and they did help. And I do believe they help people along the way. And I'm very fortunate I get to share that with a lot of people and get to do this work. And I believe people do benefit from that. Years later, I now know why we're tuning their brain to a higher level. Were tuning them into more of the positive, the more we actually do the work on a daily basis. We could talk more about that when you guys are ready to.

Henry Kaestner: Jon I do. I do want to talk about that, but there's been something that's been sick in my mind since you said it, because I think that it's true. And a corollary to you talking about Christian atheism is to what I often think of with Christian business owners. I say, and this is surely not scientific, but I say that I've often said 80%, but let's just say the majority of Christian owned businesses are not as good as their secular counterparts. And I've been fascinated by that over the course of the last 20 years. And we see it in some of this anecdotal. You see fish on the side of a van of a painter. There's people that rely on their faith as a crutch a little bit, but sometimes, or maybe most of the time, Christians aren't as ambitious about serving their customers and succeeding and delighting their customer in their employees and just really getting after it. I don't know why that is. And yet I find that 20, 30, 40% maybe of Christian business owners do have something that is much better than the secular counterpart, and you see them outperforming. Part of the thesis behind starting Sovereign's capital is a belief that a faith driven entrepreneur that is reliant on God has an advantage. But why is it that you see so many Christians that aren't positive? Because I see them too, right? And some number of people this podcast right now are saying, I am a Christian, I listen to faith driven entrepreneur. But you know what? I look at this and I just see that, you know, the world is just going to hell in a handbasket. Literally, figuratively. Pardon my French. I just. I have this dour view on everything. And why is it do you think they're Christians tend, despite having all the hope in the world, why is it, do you think the Christians might be overindexed for being curmudgeons and saying things for the opposite of rose colored glasses, to be vigilant for that and just, you know, to suss it out in our own lives?

Jon Gordon: Yeah, we're hitting hard and we're hitting the truth, though. And people do need the truth and they need to hear this, which is important. I thought of this a lot as I wrote The One Truth, because in the end what I'm saying is Jesus is the solution to the separation. And through Jesus, He restores you and brings you back to oneness with God. And in that oneness there is power, there is wisdom. That is how the renewing of our mind happens. And Henry, those who are renewing their minds, those who are spending time with the Father, with God, I believe, do have an advantage. I believe that's my advantage because I pray all the time. I surrender. I trust I receive. And as I'm doing that, the wisdom comes from him, the power comes from him, the ideas come from him, the ambition comes from him. But it's a healthy ambition. It's not an ambition of the flesh. Romans 8:5-6, says a mind governed by the flesh leads to death. A mind governed by the spirit leads to life and peace. So it goes to the heart of the soul is the integrator between the flesh and the spirit. So here's the deal. As a Christian, you might have accepted Jesus and received him as your Savior. So your spirit is saved, but your soul still needs healing. The soul is still encumbered by the past dysfunction, the pain and the patterns of the flesh of the past. And you haven't fully healed or renewed your mind and your soul. And so the soul must bathe in the spirit to be renewed, to be healed. It's sort of like taking a cucumber and put it into pickle juice. And if you do that one time, submerge it once and pull it out. That's baptism one time. Okay, You've been saved. But has the pickle been transformed? No, to be transformed, it must be pickled. It must bathe in the pickle juice for a long period of time. And I think as Christians, we're not spending time with the spirit. We're not spending time in the Word of God and with God himself, His presence, his spirit moving through us and renewing us. So our soul is still being encumbered and living from the flesh. Fear, anxiety, worry, stress. We're being driven by the flesh, not the spirit. Just like non-Christians. It's why couples, couples who pray together 99% stay together. Couples who just go to church, 50% stay together. No different than unchurch. What's the difference? The prayer and the spirit is the difference. And so they're not living with power. And so I wrote this one truth because I recognize people want to live with power. Now, here's the other thing. You have non-Christians that have more faith in Christians because they believe they believe in their product. They believe they're going to be successful. They believe they're going after it. They're driven by the flesh in an earthly way. And that's driving them to succeed, to make money eventually, if they don't invest in the root and they focus on the fruit, the tree will die. So it will catch up to them and they will not have sustained success. But they also just believe in they have a lot of optimism as they're building their product. Like Steve Jobs had a lot of belief. He wasn't a Christian, but he had a lot of belief and vision of what he was building. As Christians, we should have the vision, we should have the belief, and then we should have the healthy ambition to do amazing work. Martin Luther said that the Christian Shoemaker honors God not by putting crosses on shoes, but by making great shoes. And so as you make great shoes and you're driven by great craftsmanship, you're honoring God because God loves great craftsmanship. There's also and I'll say one more thing, Christians also, a lot of times they don't do great work or they don't go after because they don't feel worthy. So they actually think there's a sense of I have to be humble. And so there's a false humility there that says I have to be humble. So I can't have big ambitions, I can't have big goals. I can't go after it. No. Yes, you can. If they're God sized goals, Yes, you can. If you're surrounding and trusting God and he gives you a vision and a plan and a purpose, if he tells you what you're meant to do and you go after it, I truly believe I'm the best in the world at what I do in terms of leadership and building teams, because I've worked with the Rams, the Dodgers, the Miami Heat, I've worked with all these different teams, all these companies, all these leaders. I don't think anyone's worked with more sports teams, businesses, schools than I have, but that doesn't make me arrogant. I know that I have this confidence because I'm here to do God's work and he's given me everything to do what I do. But I'm also humble knowing it all comes from him. And I know that I'm learning and growing every day and I don't know everything and I can learn from everyone I meet. I'm confident what I do, but I'm also humble. Knowing that there's a God and it's not me. And so I think that's the key. What's driving you flesh or spirit? And more Christians need to take time to spend in the spirit.

Henry Kaestner: Okay. So it's helpful. And I've never heard the pickle analogy. I may do that. It's scent that you just allow the Holy Spirit to bathe in you, pickle. It's hard to say. Pickle bite pickles leads to positivity, but there's something is to victory that you really immerse yourself in how much God loves you. That and only then can you expect to be positive. Okay, I want you.

Jon Gordon: Will you receiving his spirit like prayer? P R A Y E R is an acronym I share in the book. Praise God. Repent. A, ask him for what you want. Ask him for your daily bread. Ask him for guidance. Ask him for wisdom. Y yield surrender? Y is yielded surrender? That's the key, right? That we're surrendering. We're letting go of our ego, our pride, and we're allowing God to move and work through us. So surrender. And then there's E, which is expect when we pray and we ask, we expect God to deliver on his promises. We also expect miracles. I expect miracles all the time. And somehow, some way I keep seeing miracles. So we expect it and then we receive. And I think too often Christians, we don't receive God's wisdom, blessing or spirit. Now, this is not old material things. This is the blessing and the wisdom that God wants to give you to be a blessing to others, to bless through you. But God clearly wants to bless his people. And Jesus is one miracle after another is an example of that. And as you receive his blessings, which a lot of Christians don't do a good job of, because again, they don't feel worthy. No, I'm worthy to receive your blessings only Lord, to do your work, to make a difference and make an impact. It's such a fine line because we can easily get caught up in the money receiving the material things, the success and all of that. But it's always a hard posture turning back to God and surrendering to him. So the more you spend time in prayer, PRAYER while you do that each day from a really a surrender place and a hard place, it's incredible how God will just start to move through you in a powerful way.

Henry Kaestner: That's awesome. Okay, so I want to shift gears a little bit, but before I do that, I want to acknowledge, of course, a number of our faith driven entrepreneurs that are listening to you talk and saying he can't be that good because he doesn't work with my favorite sports team thinking about the Orioles, the Giants, the Ravens, you didn't mention any of them. And when you do, we're going to have you back on for the next book. But actually, you've written a lot of awesome books and a lot of them are up on the wall behind you. Some of us are going to watch this on video and see some of the clips. But as Rusty said at the outset, Jon has really kind of a definitive voice on this. And I love the way that you reading scripture into it. And so it makes me want to ask you one last question before I hand it off to my partner, William, which is, as you go through Scripture and you study leadership examples, which are the ones that jump out to you as saying, these are the men that embody is, so you can't answer Jesus. Right here are the people that really embody this aspect of positivity and the work that I do that really kind of motivate me when I'm writing this book and I kind of look back to scripture, I see examples of this that are inspiration. The writing I do in the examples I look at and maybe some that aren't that. And then you can't on the negative side, you can't say anything like the Bad Kings of Judah or anything like that. It would be too easy to. But as you go through and you see all these leaders in the Bible, are there some that just jump out at you as like having gotten it and some they like, gosh, you know, you can just really see the problems. This guy not able to overcome something that I end up writing about.

Jon Gordon: You know, the hard part is they can't use Jesus. When I write a book, Positive Leadership or this book, I'm always filtering it through the lens of Jesus, because is this how he led? Think about Jesus in the wilderness, was tempted and was lied to, and he responded Every time with it is written. It is written, It is written. And actually, that's my favorite technique that I share with people. Speak truth to the lies. Any time a lie comes that a negative thought, I call it talk to yourself, don't listen to yourself. And I actually learned this from Dr. James Gill's, who's a Christian in Tampa. He owned the Iron Man and he basically was the guy who did six Double Iron Man's double only person in history to do six, and he was 59 the last time he did it. And he was asked how he did it and he said, I'm going to talk to myself instead of listen to myself. And so that's just a practical example. And what does that mean? Take every thought, get that. It means don't be informed by the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind, as Paul talked about. So that's essential. But if I think of two people, Caleb and Joshua always come to mind in terms of the promise, Yeah, I just love the story because, you know, 10 go out there and come back with a negative report and two come back and say, God with you, we can take it, we can win it. And the other people were focusing on the negative, and the pessimism is the ultimate example of that. And think about. That their descendants wandered around the desert for years, for years and years, were not allowed to enter the promised Land until they all died off because of their lack of belief. Only two were allowed to enter the promised land, and they were the ones who were optimistic. They were the positive ones. So I just think they're the ultimate example. But I think.

Henry Kaestner: They're also the minority, though, and I think you're really on to something there. We were talking about before, so many entrepreneurs don't outperform their secular counterparts, but those that really grasp it become the Caleb and Joshua and conquered nations. You also see that one, a point that you made earlier that I think is worth mentioning is the point on gratitude. Ten lepers are healed by Jesus, but out of ten, I mean, they just healed from leprosy. Only one bothers to come back and say thank you. Right. And so as a faith driven entrepreneurs, you listen in, you have to understand that the pattern of the world as you talk about it is to lead us to not thanking Jesus or to look at the giants that the other ten looked at and saying, You can't do it. So you have to go and just like, listen, if I'm just human, I'm not going to be able to do it. And I can go through the positivity. But I have to find that thing that was common among the minority, and I think that's what you're getting at.

Jon Gordon: And I also think, by the way, it's normal to have ebbs and flows. It's natural, be negative. So I don't judge anybody who is negative because I was quite negative. I really think it's the journey to go from negative to positive. I think God allows us to face negativity, to give us a test. The story of the Disciples. I'm watching the Chosen right now, and I just love the Chosen as I'm watching it. You really see it play out like you get these negative guys, these incompetent followers, and they're all negative. They're competing with each other. And slowly but surely, Jesus over time is molding and shaping them to be in his likeness, to be who they're meant to be. And he does the same for us. And I do think I know we're all on a journey and we all struggle along the way, and we're all going to at times choose the negative path. But we always have an opportunity to choose the positive road and the positive path, and that's choosing the one with Jesus along the way and with faith and with Him. All things are possible. So God gives us test and I'm convinced more and more He gives us painful experiences, He gives us things that happen in our life that we wish didn't happen to us. He gives us tests. Which will you choose? Will you believe the lie of the enemy during those tests, or will you choose him? Go back to the garden. I read about the garden in the One truth. The garden is the ultimate story of believing the lie and allowing the separation to take hold. Well, guess what? Every day we continue to believe the lie that outside forces have power over us. That by taking this substance or this cheap substitute will make us feel good. But it only provides relief, not restoration. So we believe the lie and we think we're going to become more, but we actually become less. And yet God is always calling us to more so than we, the lying, become less or know the truth and become more. And that's our choice every day. And God gives us that choice.

William Norvell: There's amazing kind of segment to me better because I may or may not have my get used a different shirt on right now as I'm going through the Chosen always as well. My favorite scene of all time is when he calls Matthew at the end of season one and you know, he calls him out of the tax collector booth if you haven't seen the show. And Peter, of course, being Peter like he's been, you know, the first person to recognize Jesus, Lord, he's come on board and he's done everything Jesus like, whoa, not him. Like, what are you doing? He literally says, You've done some crazy things, but this is different. And Jesus firmly says, Get used to different. And I just love that moment because I think it speaks to everything you've been talking about, too. Like, if we're expecting the same, that's what we'll get. But the life of Jesus is get used to different. It will look different, it will feel different. Things will come alive to you in new ways. You will see blessing and you may ask for blessings you think you want, and God gives you different blessings that you need. Right? So all of that, I want to shift a little bit the energy bus, of course, one of your famous books before the show came on. I'm a huge fan. I don't have a Jon Gordon shirt on yet, but I'll get one eventually. I see that one time. I want it. I want it. But entrepreneurs are intimately familiar with, right? So many things negativity, rejection, roadblocks, right? How would you encourage them to maintain that energy in the face of customers saying no fund raising, saying no, your wife telling you you made a bad choice and you shouldn't have started a company? All of these things, how does that energy stay?

Jon Gordon: Three things. One, you got to feed yourself every day in order to feed others. If you don't have it, you can't share it. So you really have to take the time to feed the positive on a daily basis. For me, it's that gratitude, walk and prayer walk and I do that, and that is feeding myself ready to take on the challenges. The mind is like a garden. You get a weed, the negative, feed the positive, do it from one day. It doesn't do a lot, but weed the negative feed the positive for a week, for a month, for a year. That garden of your mind. Starts to look pretty amazing and magnificent and you start to produce amazing fruit in your life the more you feed that every day. So doing gratitude practice a positively practice feeding yourself every day is essential. Then there's purpose. And purpose is essential because we don't get burned out because of what we do. We get burned out because we forget why we do it. So what is your why? When you know your why, you'll know the way and you're not going to let obstacles get in the way. So the why is essential. Your purpose needs to be greater than your challenges because there can be days you get up, you don't feel very positive. There going to be days that everything is coming at you. And maybe you're thinking I should give up on my business. But no. My purpose in doing this business, I have this vision. I have this mission and the vision and mission propel you forward. And that's essential. So for me, it's always teaching leaders to get clear on their vision and their mission and their purpose. That's what the power of positive leadership is all about. The book I wrote. That's what the Energy bus is all about. I always tell entrepreneurs, I'm going to read three books. Definitely it's power, Positive leadership for me, Energy, Bus and the Carpenter, which is all about loving, serving and caring and building greatness. Those three books are essential for leaders, and it's why I wrote them, because I know how much leaders struggle because I was that leader. And I work with all these leaders who struggle and have built amazing success as a result of that. Evan SPIEGEL, who was and is the CEO and founder of Snapchat, he was struggling. His team was struggling years ago. 2017 He read The Power of Positive Leadership after it just came out, invited me to come speak to his leadership team, Napa Valley, me and his like ten leaders, and I taught them the importance of positive leadership. And some people rolled their eyes like, this is a bunch of crap, you know, and didn't believe it. Other guys were like, No, we need this. Some people left. Other people came on and they focused on it. They completely turn around the company with this positive leadership. So that's essential vision and mission. Where are we going and why are we going there? What are we building? What are we creating? And that will drive you every single that you talked about the Choosen, let's face it, the disciples had a mission. They had a vision. Jesus ignited them with that. They know they were following Jesus. He was their ultimate vision of what he They follow me because along the way they didn't have a lot of certainty at times, but they were following him. And then afterwards, after he died, after was crucified, it was a clear vision, a mission of what they had to do because they had the great commandment and the great Commission. They had what they were born to do and brought together to do. So I just love that because you're seeing it come to life. As you read the words in the Scripture, you're now seeing this depiction of it. My favorite scene, by the way, was when he looks at Matthew and stares at him and they make eye contact. I teared up because Matthew knows in that moment I got goosebumps. Right now he knows he's being called. He's being chosen in that moment and he's looking at him and he can't avoid it. It's like the most powerful scene for me is just their eye contact in that moment. And I felt a similar thing for me. I grew up Jewish. My mom was Jewish, my biological father was Jewish, my wife Irish Catholic, but never went to church. We were new agers and seekers, but my wife remembers meditating and seeing a picture of Jesus. Literally, Jesus would come to her visual of Jesus, came to her in her meditations. I was meditating and I started seeing a glowing cross in my meditations. And so, like, we felt called, like we were called to that. So Vision mission is essential is what keeps me going, like every day. This is my fourth podcast. Today is my fourth hour long podcast. It's a long time to talk for 4 hours. Honestly, I'm tired, but it's knowing we can have an impact on some entrepreneurs listening and we can impact their life. That is what is keeping me going and sharing this one truth message I'm not getting tired of. So purpose and vision is next. And then the last one long answer is love loving your passengers. As I wrote in the energy bus, Loving people Jesus calls us to love, there really actually is a key strategy for business because the minute you focus on love, what happens? Fear dissipates and fear paralyzes us. Fear holds us back. Fear keeps us from being our best. But love casts out fear. So the minute you focus on love, what happens is you no longer worry about the outcome, the numbers. You're not worried about what people think, you're not worried about the expectation. You're not letting fear drive you, which is draining. Fear is draining may give you a temporary boost of energy initially, but then it's draining. Love is sustaining, and then many focus on love that actually will drive you forward. And if you love it, you won't fear it. And I always think about Pavarotti, a very practical thing, Pavarotti said. Everybody wants the audience to love them. But I love the audience, and I think that's the key to life. You love your customers, you love your team, you love competition, because competition makes us better. You love the challenges along the way because it helps you grow stronger. The minute you focus on love, you'll be so much more powerful. And then I explain so much more why and the one truth about how love creates the oneness. Whereas fear creates separateness.

William Norvell: Hmm. Amen. I'm glad you bring that energy. I would have never known it was your fourth podcast here. You're literally living your own advice.

Henry Kaestner: This is your favorite. Let's just distinguish.

William Norvell: Well, we weren't going to ask him to rank them, you know? But. But, you know, we know where we fall.

Henry Kaestner: Thank you for that Pavorotti comment. I think that's incredibly important. We spent a lot of time with the guys from Chick-Fil-A and people talking about delighting their customer. Where does that come from? And unpack that to really have that mindset of loving your customer, loving your employees, knowing that our natural sense and where we are left without being conscious of is wanting to be loved. Right. And so if we can bring that into consciousness and then kind of reverse it and lean into it, interestingly, to the extent that we lean into loving our customers to the extent that our customer love us. Right. But you focus on the customer loving you first and all of a sudden and all that, poof.

Jon Gordon: It's like my marriage. You know, I turn around my marriage when I said, the more I love my wife, the more I love my life. Not happy wife, happy life. The more I love her, the more I'm going to love my life. It's about what I could do for her, how I can love her and serve her. And when I did that and by the way, I'm the guy who was left years ago because I was so miserable and negative when I did that. That changed our marriage because it was about loving and serving her and not expecting anything in return. I'm not doing this, so I get something in return. Or more intimacy, which is what we want often in our marriages. I was doing it to love her. Now we have the best marriage because I focused on that and she was always loving and giving. But the more I gave to her and served her, I saw come back tenfold. Same thing with my kids. Same thing with my customers. People always say, What's your secret of success? I loved, served, and cared over time. Never looked for anything. Never tried to get anything. And even working with all these different coaches like I do, you know, they trust me because I've been there for them in their most difficult times as coaches and leaders, while other people are jumping off the bandwagon. I'm helping fix the flat tire because I'm there for them. And guess what? They trust you when they have the next success, whatever else to try to jump back on the You were there, you know, when they were at their lowest point and then you help them get to their highest point. They then thank you for being there at the highest point. So to me, that's what it's all about. That's the key to life. That's the only way to be if you truly want sustained success. By the way, I love Chick fil A In and Out Burger is one of my clients. And in and out burger, you know, they write scripture on their cups. Very strong values, very strong principles. They've ingrained power of positive leadership in their company. I love them. I love work with them again. There's a difference. They are so focused on quality. They're so focused on relationships. They're so focused on everything they do. Their culture is so strong. You're not allowed to make a hamburger unless you've worked there for a year. You really have to apprentice to make a hamburger. That's how much quality they are. Chick-Fil-A. I've yet to speak the Chick fil A. I don't know why. Like we are perfect synergistic people. I should be working with them, but I have yet to work with them for some reason. Haven't done so. But I love what they stand for.

Rusty Rueff: Maybe somebody is listening. Jon Jay put himself out.

Jon Gordon: There that all things are possible.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, so much of I think part of our faith journey is being able to see the fruits of the work that we've done. And, you know, Henry, you mentioned, you know, sports teams. I saw that you work with a Clemson football team. And is there not a more positive coach in America than Davos winning? I mean, he is the most positive coach and.

Jon Gordon: He's the best. He is the he is the best. And he is such an incredible faithful leader. Embodies everything we're talking about. And I just love him. I've learned a lot from him over the years, 12 years now. We've worked together. We talk a lot. I just went up to visit him and played basketball with him. He's not just positive. He's a fierce competitor and I actually I've been studying this lately. There's something about competitiveness, fierceness that actually God uses for good because I've been meeting a lot of pastors who actually were former athletes who are very competitive, but now they're using it what, to become fishers of men. They're competitive in a different way. So it's almost like God turns around your fiercest competitiveness, but uses it for good, gives you a platform, gives you an opportunity to impact and so forth. Dabo is off the charts. Incredible. All right. Here's how positive Dabo is. He said, If we win, if we make it to the college football playoffs, we're going to have a pizza party in Death Valley. This was the first time they made the college football playoffs, so they make it. So now he has to have a pizza party. 80,000 people show up for this pizza party. And so he was able to somehow gather all the pizza makers from around the state and they all got together and they provided pizza. And I told them, Hey, Dabo, Jesus said even greater things that I shall you do. You know, he did it with a few loaves and some fish, but you fed 80,000 with pizza. You created a miracle. I love it.

William Norvell: Amazing what Alabama grads can. You know, I mean, it's just shocking sometimes what University of Alabama graduates can pull off.

Henry Kaestner: Well played. Well, playing well.

William Norvell: Is going to bear that out there.

Rusty Rueff: So we're going to let William bring this to a close. But I got one more question for you. When in your life, as you were on this journey, did you go from, Wow. I'm doing this work internally, right, to make myself more positive, to feeling called, to then take that out and start to write and start to speak and start to coach. Tell us about when that happened.

Jon Gordon: I'm having trouble staying positive right now after William just talked about Alabama, so I'm just not working on that right now. Hold on. Let me gather myself for a second. You know, like every time I watch Alabama, I have to remember Jesus said, love everybody, love your enemies. So I have to I have to love them, too. Amen. Actually, you know, spend time with dad. But you can actually appreciate and respect Alabama a lot and the love. Everybody needs a worthy opponent and they make each other better. I was interviewing Nick Saban one time and I wanted to ask Nick, Hey, Nick, what was it like losing twice to Dabo Swinney in the national championship? But I didn't ask that question because he would probably would have hung up on me and not continued the conversation. But yeah, love the competitiveness in the sport. But for me, when did it turn around like that for me? It was right away, actually, when I realized how miserable and negative I was. I asked God what I was born to do and why I was here. And that's when writing and speaking came to me. And I realized I was miserable because I was so focused on myself and I was trying to achieve success rather than making a difference. Because when I was in my twenties, I actually started a nonprofit organization in Atlanta called the PHENIX Organization, and we raised money and volunteered for youth focused charities. And I remember doing that, really just loving that and being alive when I was doing that. And I realized I had gotten away from that. I was so focused on success and not making a difference. And so that right away I was like, okay, I want my life to be about making a difference in others. I'm going to focus on serving others and making a difference. And the more I do that right, no matter what happens, I may not be rich, but I'll be happy and I'll focus on that. And that began the journey of doing that. It's amazing. Like the more I focus on that, that's when success came. That's why to this day I wrote a book called The Seed, and I always say, don't focus on success. Focus on making a difference in serving others. And success will find you whatever form that success is supposed to be. And Dr. David Jeremiah, who's become a friend and someone I, I just love, he said Success is the fulfillment of God's plan for your life. And I just love that that term and that definition of success is the fulfillment of God's plan for your life. So to me, that became my definition of success as fulfilling his plan, whatever that was. So that was really immediate. Now it's grown a lot more and it's I've matured in it and I am more convicted with it. But I knew right away like that's what I had to do to not just be happy but also to live my purpose.

William Norvell: That's great, Jon. We're going to move to closing in as much so, but I got to ask one more question. So entrepreneurship is an inherently risky business, right? So lots of them. We don't really like the word failure on this podcast, but they seem to exist for some reason. Market timing wasn't right. The business didn't take off, you know, And of course we all know we can learn things through that. And some of the best entrepreneurs are their third or fourth company. Right. But I'm curious, we probably have some people right, that it's not going to end how they thought it would right and how they thought God called them. And for whatever reason, the business is not going to be a wild success from a profit margin perspective, Right. What's an encouragement to those people that are seeing that or thinking they may be there or questioning whether they have, you know, a business, but, you know, they feel called to and they're on that journey. Right. What would you say to those people as they are listening to this and saying, gosh, like it feels like it's just not going to work out?

Jon Gordon: Yeah, I went door to door to 7000 houses running for city council and I thought my destiny and my goal was to be in politics because I was a government economics major in turn in D.C. And so I had this chance now to hopefully be a city councilman and then eventually may be mayor of Atlanta and walking door to door. I was going to win the election and they came after me that last week. So hard, so negative, I learned with politics was all about and very naive. At the time. I was only 26, but I lost the election. And sometimes you have to lose a goal to find your destiny. And then I also started a positive cookie business, and that failed miserably because I realized it costs a dollar, tend to make the cookie and only $0.30 would be profit. So you got to spend a dollar ten to make $0.30. That's not a sustainable model. And once I realized that, I actually had to just cut it all and take the loss, which is about $120,000. And I remember losing that thinking, Wow, I just lost all that money. But then saying, you know what? What am I meant to do? Even more now I realized I had the capacity to do something else. I had the capability, I have the energy. I thought I was just going to write and speak. What else could I? And that actually led to us building a training company and consulting. And now we've trained up hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of positive leaders around the world, thousands now actually from around the world with training leaders to be better leaders. I've now stepped into my calling even more doing this, but it wouldn't have happened without doing the cookie. I've had restaurants that have failed in my twenties, opened up a restaurant in Atlanta, opened up a few others. A few succeeded. A few failed. So I have failed many times. And I know. But we're not failing. We're becoming. We're growing. And maybe you'll fail at this, but it's meant to lead you to something else you're meant to do. And here's the key. Do you want to be great at it? Is it part of your mission and purpose? And if it is, you keep going. Is there another way to express and live your mission in calling? Because so often God will use multiple ways to actually live the purpose and call. It may not be your major purpose. It's just a vehicle to live your purpose. So what else can I do that might allow me to do that? If it's only this, then you stay with it. If there's another way, you consider another option along the way, and God will use you for that. And again, you know, we're going to have seasons of droughts, but it's our character during the drought that people will remember when we have an incredible harvest. And I always say believe that a harvest is coming in the future. Maybe not with this business, but something else, and you'll prosper in that other thing. For me, I failed and then I realized what I'm meant to do. And now I solely focus on that and mistakes along the way. But every mistake you grow, every mistake you get better and you're not going to be perfect, but you are becoming and growing who God made you to be. And so if you're an entrepreneur going through a challenge, just examine where you are. Examine Do I really want to continue to build this? Is this pointing me to something else, or is it just a test to grow stronger in it? And God will often reveal to you over time, maybe not right away, but the more you pray, the more you surrender, the more you trust, the more you ask for guidance and signs along the way. He'll show you along the way. He's shown me every time what I'm supposed to do and let go of. And he's never been wrong. I've been wrong, but he's never been wrong.

William Norvell: Love it. Love it. Okay. So we do, unfortunately, have to come to a close, which I know there's a large exhaustive sigh from our audience like, No, no, non stop. But that's why you wrote a book and you wrote lots of books and you do lots of podcasts. So we will obviously link in the show notes to the One Truth, your new book and some of the others. And of course, people can find you in a lot of places. I loved your podcast when I was editor Marlette. I will recommend that was so good. I think you were on for 90 minutes and we could link that in the show notes. There was such a good.

Jon Gordon: One where I was on his.

William Norvell: Yeah, where you were on his podcast.

Jon Gordon: Yeah, that was the Holy Spirit was moving between us in a big way.

William Norvell: It was amazing. Please go listen to it. Obviously share this with other people too, but share that too. So our final question is that we love to close with is we love to take it back to God's word, in fact, of Scripture. And we always love to say, hey, we would love if you would share with our audience some place that God's Word is coming alive to you in a new way. It could be a verse you read this morning. It could be something you meditated on your whole life. But we would love if you would share that with our audience.

Jon Gordon: I love Matthew 6:33 Seek the Kingdom first, and that is something that's coming alive for me in a whole new way. I'm understanding it more and more. I end the one truth with it and I really want to encourage you to read it. It's going to help entrepreneurs in a huge way. It's going to help men in a huge way. I wrote it to lead people to the truth. And as you seek the truth, you find it and you realize Jesus is the answer. And then for those who are maybe who are Christians and they already believe Jesus is the answer, they also haven't found healing. So my goal is it will help people who have a hole in their soul. H o l e and they will become whole. W.H.O.L.E God is calling us to wholeness and holiness, but the Kingdom is really what Jesus preached and talked about the most, the Kingdom of God. So for me, I'm really unashamed and a greater way. Like Jesus said, the Kingdom of God is inside of you. So guess what? If the Kingdom of God is inside each person, when you're impacting people's lives, you're impacting the kingdom. And so the soul inside of us, that is the kingdom. And so appearance is temporary, but essence is eternal. And is that eternal essence of who we are and what we are. That's the kingdom. And when you have a relationship with the king, he gives you the keys to the kingdom. So through Jesus, you're allowed to experience this kingdom. We're also given authority and we're an heir to the throne to create this kingdom right here, to bring heaven to earth. And so more and more, the work we're meant to do is meant to truly make earth like heaven, bring heaven to earth. And we do that every day from the spirit and the soul inside of us. And we live from the inside out. We create from this love that we have within. This reality that we're experiencing, that is the kingdom here on Earth. We do it from within us, the kingdom within. And so I'm recognizing that more and more. I shared that recently at a Christian conference. People came up to me, They said they were blown away. Never heard anything like it. God is giving me more and more understanding in that way to be able to share that, to hopefully get people to take action. Christians get saved. The Kingdom men in Kingdom women, they are here to make earth like heaven a completely different mindset and that is going to have it. Now I'm here to bring heaven to earth, and that's what we're all called to do. So how are we making the Earth better? How are we making people better along the way? You guys are obviously doing that with this podcast, which is really awesome.

Henry Kaestner: Jon, I'm grateful for you is incredible encouragement. I should have expected no less, and yet it exceeded expectations. I'm grateful for the way you woven Scripture and the way you talk to the challenges that we all need to overcome as Christ followers and lean into gratitude and just loving on people and being proactive about it. Thank you for your work, your faithfulness, for making this your fourth of the day. For our listeners out there, thank you for tuning in. If this made any impact in your life. Please is William encourage you to do share it with somebody else. Also consider going on the website and joining our foundation group where we explore the marks of a faith driven entrepreneur. More than 12,500 have gone through it. There's no cost, no catch, and Jon's is grateful for you. Get out there and get some of Jon's books. Go see him and hear him speak. Jon May the Lord bless you, your work, your family and your ministry.

Jon Gordon: Thanks, guys. I appreciate you. God bless you guys.

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