Who protects the people who are meant to protect us?

First responders daily risk their lives for the sake of others and the people who put on those uniforms need others who will help keep them safe as they go about their  jobs.

That’s why Josh Richardson started Angel Armor with his brother JC. The two discovered something that many of us just don’t think about. Like any product in the modern world, Protective gear needs to adapt to what customers want.

The industry needs innovation and fresh ideas so that these frontline workers can do their jobs safely.  And that’s what angel armor is all about.  Using their innovative and entrepreneurial mindsets to create products that protect the protectors.

As you’ll hear in this episode, the two brothers grew up in an entrepreneurial home. Their parents started a different kind of protective equipment company: the brand Otterbox, which has become known to smartphone users around the world for their waterproof cases.

Josh joins us today to talk about his rollercoaster journey from growing up in a home that barely made it by to seeing the growth and success of his parents’ company. He’ll talk about how his own success with OtterBox took him down a dark path away from his faith and how the relentless pursuit of Jesus called him back. And he’ll share what all these experiences have taught him about running his business today.

Helpful Links:

https://plusnothing.com/

https://angelarmor.com/

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Episode Transcript

Joseph Honescko: Who protects the people who are meant to protect us. First responders daily risked their lives for the sake of others. And the people who put on those uniforms need others who will help keep them safe as they go about their jobs. That’s why Josh Richardson started Angel Armor with his brother JC. The two discovered something that many of us just don’t think about. Like any product in the modern world. Protective gear, like vehicle armor or bulletproof vests. Needs to adapt to what customers want. The industry needs innovation and fresh ideas so that these frontline workers can do their job safely. And that’s what Angel Armor is all about. Using their innovative and entrepreneurial mindsets to protect the protectors. As you’ll hear in this episode, the two brothers grew up in an entrepreneurial home. Their parents started a different kind of protective equipment company, the brand Otterbox that has become known to smartphone users around the world for their waterproof cases. Josh joins us today to talk about his rollercoaster journey from growing up in a home that barely made it by to seeing the growth and success of his parents company. He’ll talk about how his own success with Otterbox took him down a dark path away from his faith and how the relentless pursuit of Jesus called him back. And he’ll share what all these experiences have taught him about running his business today. You’re listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Let’s get into it.

Josh Richardson: So growing up in an entrepreneurial family, you know, my dad was a really struggling entrepreneur as I was growing up. And it was really neat because the church was actually bringing our family groceries and diapers just to make it by. So we were in a really unique position there where my dad was the struggling entrepreneur, really trying to make it work. And he was an injection molder, a toolmaker by trade. So we had these huge injection molding machines in our garage, and he was doing all this manufacturing work in our garage at our house. And I grew up always hearing about the struggles of building and running your own business, growing your business, and then it kind of shrinking back and, you know, depending on the fluctuations in the market. So it’s just a way that I was raised. And then in 1996, my dad said, Hey, we’re going to start our own company, building our own little plastic boxes, and we’re going to name it Otterbox. And so that was kind of the kick off into our next kind of phase, if you will, as a family, right where it’s like, hey, we’re going to start and build this business. And it was a family business. I remember my brother and I putting postage stamps on little mailers and sending those off and getting the word out to different mom and pop businesses about our little waterproof case.

Rusty Rueff: So I got to ask you, why did you call it Otter?

Josh Richardson: It’s so funny. So originally in the earlier days, when it was just the waterproof case, everybody knows the big pelican cases right. You can put, like your scuba gear in or your camera gear or your film gear. And so Pelican only had these giant cases. And so we were going to develop a small line of cases for like personal goods. And so it was kind of in that line, Hey, what’s like an animal kind of outdoors, fun plays around. And my mom actually, she’s super creative and amazing, so she’s like, the otter is like super cute, fun and has the most waterproof fur, right? So it’s waterproof, super fun, super cute. So let’s do Otter Otterbox, right? And it actually ended up being such a blessing because then go into the mobile protection space in the consumer goods space. It’s such a unique, like random name that it’s really recognizable. Right? So it was interesting when the PalmPilot first came out, the PalmPilot was like the very first, I guess you could call it a smartphone where you could hold it in your hand and have a little touch screen. And so that was really the first jump that we had in the technology. And so we had this little waterproof box, the government using the Palm Pilot. And they actually approached us because they were storing the PalmPilot in the waterproof case. They said, Hey, is there any way that we could use the Palm Pilot through the case? And so that’s when we began to see as a business. My dad and mom had the vision, Hey, this technology sector, this thing could really have legs. So we began to pivot into technology right shortly after then. And this thing called the BlackBerry came out and we heard about this guy named Steve, and he was going to make this thing called an iPod. Oh, whoa, Let’s do a case for the iPod. And then now he’s going to combine the iPod and a phone to make this thing called an iPhone. Right. And so it was a huge blessing in God’s timing in his favor for us to be perfectly positioned, in this case business with a background in injection molding and tooling for us to really catch this wave of technology. And really the rest is history. And there’s a lot in between there, but I’ll save that for a little bit later. So that’s kind of my background and grew up in the business, right? I mean, I was doing sales for Otterbox as a young kid. I was in the manufacturing floor and so was my brother. I mean, it’s a family business, right? It started in our garage.

Rusty Rueff: So you’re ten years old and dad’s an entrepreneur and he’s got his business. He’s doing that. What lessons were you picking up about how to be your own entrepreneur later in life?

Josh Richardson: One key thing that our family has always put into practice in that my mom and dad always preached about is people make the business right. So it’s all about the people and what type of people are we going to bring on and what type of people we’re going to be representing and running and growing the business. So it’s all about the people how are we treating, our people, what type of individuals are working for the business? And that’s been a key staple for us, right? We want people who are humble and hungry, willing to roll up their sleeves, willing to get after it and really get the work done to be sold out for the mission.

Rusty Rueff: So tell me about your own personal journey to decide that you were going to walk in the way of your own father and your own family, and then at some point you made your own decision to say that that’s going to be my life.

Josh Richardson: Man, it’s pretty crazy. So I’m going to give you a quick tidbit of my testimony. So I was saved in Promise Keepers in 1996. And my uncle, my dad’s brother was actually in leadership in Promise Keepers. So we got invited there. And it was just this incredible experience where I got my first encounter with the Holy Spirit and Jesus, where I’m like, Whoa, I’m all in. Shortly after that, my parents saved all their pennies. We were still really struggling financially, and they decided to put me into a Christian school. This Christian school actually kind of school church type of thing. They ended up really physically abusing me until I threw the baby out with the bath water. I’m like, If these people are about Jesus and these people are about God, like I’m out. Like many entrepreneurs that are listening to this and yourself, like I’m 100% in 100% out kind of guy. Like, that’s just how the Lord wired me. And so I totally rejected the faith. I was like, I’m out. And I started living a super crazy life of sin. So after high school took an offshoot of Otterbox called Cigar Caddy, took that business, took it outside of our founding an investor. We grew that off for three and a half years and sold that business. I had a successful exit there and then went back into otter and built one of our most profitable channels. Still today that still exists build out about a team of 25 people to travel and domestically all throughout the United States. And it was at that time I was still living a crazy life of sin. I actually had the opportunity moved to Hong Kong to start our Asia-Pacific office. And with the opportunity, I’m like, This is a perfect opportunity to run from all of my problems that I have just been building and building in my life through living this crazy life of sin. Right before I went to Hong Kong, I was actually invited to the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, D.C. and a gentleman there who’s actually one of the founders of the prayer breakfast handed me a little gospel harmony, and it said The life of Jesus on it. And I knew in my spirit, Right, you better keep that. That’s pretty important. Josh, You better hang on to that. So I put it in my back pocket and shortly thereafter moved to Asia. And man I was living a crazy life of sin. And one thing that was kind of an issue for me is I was very successful professionally, but my personal life and my life with Jesus was a disaster, right? So it was just kind of snowballing. Super long story short, throughout that time period of me being in Asia for three and a half years, the Holy Spirit was consistently pursuing me, consistently pursuing me, pinging my heart, telling me, read a page that little gospel harmony, so I read some scripture, and then I go back to living the life of sin, read some scripture, go back to living a life of sin. And throughout this journey that I was having, we were building individual businesses in individual countries in 14 different countries. So I was gaining all this incredible professional experience, starting and building businesses in different cultures. But the fruit wasn’t there because I wasn’t walking with Jesus. Actually, it was rotten fruit because I was living a crazy life in sin. Super Long story short, for another conversation, I had to flee Asia for my life. So I take off from Asia. After three and a half years. I land back in the United States and the Lord was pursuing me the whole time. I said, Lord, this life that I’ve been living right, I’ve been super successful from the worldly perspective, but I’m a disaster like this path of materialism, partying, drinking, just indulging in everything, drugs, right? It’s gotten me almost killed. So I’m done. I gave away everything I had material wise said, Lord, I’m all yours. Spent the next few years really repairing my life. And it was during that time when I was repairing my life and relationships. My brother and I always said, We always want to prove to the world that we can start a business from scratch together, right? We grew up around the dinner table learning about entrepreneurship. We know how to do it. We started individual verticals within otter and it’s been really successful, but we want to do it for ourself. We were always raised to honor and love our law enforcement military. It’s been a pillar of our family, right? And so one of our current CEOs, he actually found a scientist who had this panel right in his office that had some bullet holes in it. And it turns out he developed a manufacturing process that kind of combined aerospace manufacturing and ballistics manufacturing. We found it super interesting.

Joseph Honescko: Hey, everybody, if you’ve been listening to the show for a while, you probably noticed that this one feels just a little different. We had a more narrative intro. We jumped right into the guest and overall cut the time down quite a bit. You could say we’re in a prototyping phase as we try to make the best podcast possible for you, our audience. And we can only do this if you give us your feedback. So if you can please take 2 minutes and go to faith driven entrepreneur dot org slash podcast survey to answer a few quick questions. We’ll also put the link in the show description. But if you can do that, it will help us make sure that we’re producing something that will continuously add value to your week. All right. Now back to the show.

Rusty Rueff: So yours is got so many elements of the prodigal son story to it, right? You go off and you come back. A different human being who’s broken now wants to be restored. You see this really cool. Let’s call it invention or process and how we could do this. So talk to us about how that worked for you, the transition from family leadership to co-founder.

Josh Richardson: Yeah, for sure. So the co-founder of Angel Armor is my brother, JC Richardson. Many people are like, Whoa, don’t go into business with family. Right. And for me, you know, for me, I wouldn’t want to do it with anybody else. Right. I mean, he’s my best friend. We do everything together. And, you know, I think the importance of really being a good co-founder and knowing a good co-founder is you have to know your strengths, right? And you have to stay in your lane and you have to be willing to take critical feedback and make compromises. So those are really key things. Like I’m very much forward facing. The Lord blessed me with strategic thinking, visionary, like these type of things. My brother is very operationally focused, very good in the numbers, very good in the spreadsheets, very good on the back end of the business, where I really thrive on the front end of the business. So how can we come together on the vision and the strategic initiatives of the business and both compromise so that we can get the best of both worlds? And when one person is not willing to take the other person’s advice or, you know, initiative or whatever it may be, and there’s push back like everything is, you know, it’s kind of like a marriage. I give 100% and you give 100%. And we’re willing to compromise on all of it, right, Because we’re both on the same team. We’re both in it for the win. And we love each other. We care for one another because the the relationship at the top will trickle down to the organization. If you don’t have a healthy cofounder ship, it’s tough, really, really difficult. And I have a lot of entrepreneurial friends who, you know, that’s the case. And I would say going from, you know, more of a leadership position, single leadership position in Asia to co-founder, I really enjoyed it. Right. I mean, it’s really good and it’s biblical. And my dad would always teach us, Josh, seek wisdom, always seek wisdom. None of us will ever arrive. It doesn’t matter if you run a $2 billion company or a $1 million company, it doesn’t matter. It is so critical for us to be seeking wisdom of wise men and women around us, of how to run a business, how to be a great husband or wife, how to be a better follower and disciple of Jesus. So speaking wisdom is everything.

Rusty Rueff: So you’ve been at it for a decade. Give us a sense of scale, how it’s moved, how the company’s grown. First of all, start with, you know, just the journey over the last ten years and where are we today? What’s the scale of the business?

Josh Richardson: Yep. Well, everybody who’s listening to this and yourself, I mean, we know it’s like everybody’s like, Oh, you started your own business. That’s awesome, right? I mean, it’s a slog, right? I mean, it is difficult to start your own business. And everybody always says, My dad says this. You know, it’s like everybody says it’s an overnight success. You know, it’s it’s never that case, right? I mean, it is a fight in the mud. And so for us, it was like the first five years. It was brutal and brutal. How do we take this technology? How do we develop and innovate into an industry that’s an old industry with old money and old big, you know, competitors who were owned by private equity firms and their funds a backing. I mean, it was very difficult. So throughout that first five years, we’re really finding our legs. What really is our target market? Who really is our target customer, Right? We swayed from military and now we really back dialed in on law enforcement. So law enforcement is really our target audience. And what we saw is a lot of people were really super focused on, you know, special forces and military. The huge money’s there, right, with these giant government contracts. And we saw, you know what? We have a heart for the patrolman who’s in a ten year old car driving around, has an old expired vest because ballistics expire. It’s an important part. After five years, the ballistic performance will degrade over time. So the raw material providers who are upstream from us, that’s DuPont de Nima, DSM, Honeywell, you know, those type of big, big players, they actually say, hey, the ballistic material needs to be replaced every five years. So many of these patrol guys are driving around with expired vests. You know, they’re the first line of defense. You know, they pull somebody over for not having, you know, their blinker on and the guy gets out shooting at them. Right. And so for us, we really had a heart for these guys. And it’s like, how can we innovate for these men and women of blue to really provide a super premium, innovative product at a cost effective price. And so that’s really when the business started to take off. And we we really have two arms to the business. The first arm of the business is vehicle armor. So there was a really cumbersome, expensive process of putting armor in a police vehicle. And so we got a pattern and developed a process of actually being able to just remove the weather, stripping by the window, rolling down the window, removing the weather, stripping and slipping the armor in between the door skin so you can up armor your vehicle in five or 15 minutes. It’s awesome.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, that’s just a bunch of empty space. That.

Josh Richardson: Exactly. Interesting.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, a piece of paper just lost down in there. Like I’m ever going to get that out.

Josh Richardson: Yeah, exactly. And many of us watch your movies, like, Oh, every police car has armor. Oh, well, actually, very, very small percentage of police vehicles have armor. So we’re really changing that. We’re leading the industry in aftermarket vehicle armor, which is just a great business. Right. It’s really exciting to be helping out the men and women in blue there. Then the other side of the business is really the body armor. So we do soft body armor. It gets super technical. So I’ll just use very high level terms, you know, soft body armor, which you typically see your police officer wearing. It just stops handguns. And then there’s something called a rifle plate which sits over your vitals, and that will stop rifle rounds. Right. And so in the past, really, rifle plates were only worn by SWAT teams or by special teams, if you will, or military. And then police officers would have a vest that sits in the trunk of their vehicle with a rifle plate in it. So if things got hairy, they could go to their trunk and put on a vest. Well, typically in a gunfight, you can’t say, hey, time out, time out to run to the trunk of my car and put on a rifle vest. Right. And so what we did is we were the first ones to really integrate rifle plates into a soft body armor vest so that you could be wearing all day rifle protection. And that’s kind of something that we trademarked and that we run off of and that we’re known for now. And so we always said we want to create products that we would feel comfortable putting our loved ones in. Right. I want to if I had a vest that I could send my son or my dad or my brother or my daughter out in the field on the street wearing this vest like I think, that’s a good product that we’re willing to market. And so we overbuild all of our ballistics, right? We’re not owned by a private equity firm. We’re not managed by a bottom line number. So we overbuild them. Right. So the performance of our ballistics is second to none. It’s unbelievable.

Rusty Rueff: Talk to us about, you know, where that innovation spirit comes from and then how do you operationalize that kind of innovation where every year, you know, we’re coming? But something new.

Josh Richardson: Yeah, well, it’s interesting coming from the consumer industry space, right where it’s like we talked about earlier. Each new year Samsung launched or each new year a new iPhones launched. And so it’s like we are in that super speedy, quick design and innovation like that’s in our blood. Right. And really, if you look at any business, innovation and product release is the lifeblood of a company, right? And so we really took our mentality from the consumer products industry into the law enforcement and military space where it’s like, you know, a lot of new innovative products are not released that often. And so it’s like, how can we be really innovating and really investing in our design time, in our design teams, in our design leadership so that we’re really coming out with quality products. Really where this starts is we design products from the voice of the customer. All of our products are built from feedback directly from police officers across the nation, right? Different regions, different job duties within a police department. So we really take pride in building all of our products off of the voice of the customer. And speed is everything right? We have to be getting these products to people in a timely manner. I mean, we need to be releasing products all throughout the year all the time, both because, you know, local law enforcement are thirsty and hungry and need innovation for protection. And also because like I said before, it’s the lifeblood of the business. We have to be giving the sales team not only new products constantly, but the promise of a really robust product roadmap and pipeline. So we spend a lot of time and investment on our product roadmap and things coming down the pipeline and also R&D going into building out that pipeline.

Rusty Rueff: So you’re doing something that’s very redemptive. I see, right? You’re saving people’s lives, you’re protecting them. Do you see your faith influence in your work?

Josh Richardson: For me, faith in work is one right. Our business is our way of evangelizing, witnessing, right? So it’s one. So the way that we’re treating people, the way that we’re talking every day, the way that we’re making tough decisions, is all through the lens of the life and teachings of Jesus and his principles, the principles in the Bible, right? It’s like, how are we living this out and coaching and building our business? Are we honoring the Lord in that, or how are we living? Are we as leaders or executive team, Are we obeying the word and are we living it out? And, you know, it’s all of us who have businesses who are listening to this. I mean, then a lot of our employees, they’re going through tough stuff, right? I mean, a lot life is not easy. And so really coming alongside employees, it is a ripe, ripe witnessing ground. Right. And the soil is tilled in our times today. The soil is tilled. We must be spreading seed, right. Telling people about Jesus and living it out, coming alongside them and loving them through all of their problems. It’s a really critical part and it is our ministry, it’s our outreach, and that’s why our family, we started the life and teachings of Jesus book it’s a little gospel harmony, and we give those to all of our employees. We encourage them to read them and read scripture, right? We’re shameless about our faith. We’re not a Christian business, but we’re shameless about our faith and telling people, Man, we’re followers of Jesus. We love Jesus and he is a good God, right? And we’re so thankful for his leadership in our life. And that’s why we are where we are.

Rusty Rueff: Okay. So that brings us to our final question, which are. My co-host, William, always gets to ask. It’s the best questions. I’m feeling really good that I get to ask it today since he’s not here. When we close out every show this way. What is God teaching you through His word recently? And you can define recently any way you want today, know this season of your life, whatever. But what’s God teaching you through his work?

Josh Richardson: You know, it’s interesting. I’m in the Bible study that I host. We’re reading Luke and then another Bible study, and we’re we’re in Revelation, right? And then this season of life that I’ve just been in, you know, it’s just transparently to everybody who’s listening. It’s been a tough season for me, you know? And so I’ve got a young family, beautiful wife, three year old girl, and a one year old boy. And it’s just there’s a lot going on and it’s been a tough season and the Lord’s really been speaking to me through his word and through this situation in life that, Josh, you were not in control. And I think many of us as entrepreneurs are control freaks. And I’m guilty as charged, right?

Rusty Rueff: Sure we are.

Josh Richardson: And so, you know, really releasing our businesses to him, Lord, your will be done. And I think that for me, I’ve always said that right. I’ve always said, Lord, your will be done right. But then when things start getting sideways or things start getting tough, it’s a little bit harder to say that. And then eventually you’re brought to your knees and you’re like, Lord, your will, your way is the perfect way, and that’s all I want. And so it’s been a blessing for me to get there and for him to be speaking to me and really teaching me that. And I just encourage everybody, you know, there was a really turning point in angel armor where we decided every morning we’re going to pray in our office. JC and I and our general manager at the time, we’re going to give the business to the Lord, Lord, it’s yours. We give the business to you. We’re praying for each individual employee. May the profits benefit your kingdom and it’s all for you. And that was the day that things really started to turn around. And I’m not sitting here preaching a prosperity gospel that’s going to happen to everybody. I’m just saying there is a freeing piece to owning a business and truly having it with open hands saying, Lord, this is yours and whatever you want to do with it, it’s all yours and all the glory be to you and not to me. So that’s really what I’ve been learning.

Joseph Honescko: Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. We’ve got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There’s no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at faith driven entrepreneur talk.

Recent Episodes

In-N-Out Burger is one of the few local burger restaurants that has transcended into a cultural icon. What started as one of the first drive-thru restaurants ever in 1948, has grown into one of the most recognizable brands in the country with nearly 40,000 employees in millions of happy customers.

The restaurant was founded by Esther and Harry Snyder, a husband and wife team with a passion for excellent service and incredible quality. Now over 50 years later, their granddaughter Lynsi serves as the President of the company and carries on that legacy of loving employees, serving customers and boldly giving glory, and honor to God in the process.

Lynsi joins the show to talk about the in and out legacy as told in her new book, The Ins-N-Outs of In-N-Out Burger and to share how her faith has guided her leadership style through tragedy, challenges, and triumphs.

Important Links:

Innoutbook.com

faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/podcastsurvey

Episode Transcript

Joseph Honescko: All right. Your plane lands at LAX. It’s 10:00 at night, and you’re starving. Maybe you’re coming home or you’re visiting the West Coast for business or pleasure. Whatever it is, it really doesn’t matter. You know exactly where to go when you’re in California needing a quick bite that never disappoints you grab your bag and you head to in and out. For a few uninitiated listeners, In-N-Out is probably the only local burger joint that has transcended into a national brand. The first store opened all the way back in 1948, just a few miles east of Los Angeles in Baldwin Park. It started as a husband and wife team, Esther and Harry Snyder, and they were passionate about excellent service and incredible quality. Now, over 50 years later, their granddaughter, Lynsi, serves as the president of the company. Carrying on that legacy of loving employees, serving customers, and boldly giving glory and honor to God in the process. Despite only having locations in a small handful of states, In-N-Out has become a cultural icon with nearly 40,000 employees and millions of happy customers. Lynsi joins the show to talk about the In-N-Out legacy, as told in her new book, The Ins and Outs of In-N-Out Burger. This is the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Let’s get into it.

Lynsi Snyder: Gosh, I don’t know where to start. I just remember when I was little, I. For sure had in and out spread in our fridge and in and out milk. So I guess that wasn’t normal for people. But, you know, I wasn’t in the middle of everything as I got older. Understood. My family actually moved to Northern California, so kind of sheltered from the, you know, granddaughter of the company experience. I was treated pretty normal and was just another kid up there, which was great. In sixth grade, the middle of the year when my uncle passed away and we actually moved to Southern California for the rest of that year. And it was terrible. That’s when I was kind of exposed to being treated differently and being made fun of and, you know, some jealousy and all of that. And so my dad did not like that and decided to he would commute and moved us back up north. So so I had a great childhood on a ranch and, you know, drove four wheelers and caught frogs and snakes and did all those types of things. And and then I moved down here when I was 18, and it was a whirlwind because my dad passed away when I was 17. And so it was like losing my dad, turning 18, graduating, getting married. A lot.

Henry Kaestner: Faith has been a part of the in and out story for a long, long time. Just tell us about that.

Lynsi Snyder: So. It’s interesting because my mom and dad took me to church and raised me to know, you know, I knew the Lord young, my grandma, she didn’t have a huge faith impact on my life, but she impacted me in a lot of different ways. And the things I remember her saying about God, the things she said was just thanking God to have eyes, to see ears, to hear legs, to walk with it. You know, she would go through just being thankful to have those things. And I later realized part of it probably came from she had a her grandmother was basically blind and she had to push her all over the place in a wheelchair. She took care of her from a really young age. So, you know, I think her just appreciation for some of the simple things that we take for granted was very much in her heart. And she expressed that a lot. So you know she was, I believe, raised in the Methodist church. And, you know, I think she always had her faith. It was probably walked a little more silently because my grandpa was not a believer and he actually accepted the Lord on his deathbed. So praise God for that.

Henry Kaestner: Tell us about the different influences then on your own personal faith as you’ve grown as an adult.

Lynsi Snyder: Well, I think I think God just had a plan and made sure, you know, I, I knew I had this feeling when I was really little that when I had my mom and dad and, you know, had all those things a kid needed, like food, nourishment, protection, like love, I had those things. I still felt like something was missing. And, you know, I realized that that was God. And so once I acknowledged him, which was really young, again, I don’t even remember the moment, because my longest memory other than that time where it was like, What’s missing? I think since I was four, I believed and and talked to God and Jesus. So I was just immersed and learning about God, and I just always had that to fall back on because, you know, life took me some different directions and got me off the path at times. But I always I always came back.

Rusty Rueff: So your family’s faith is totally infused inside of the culture of the company. And one of the things that you do that I want you to talk a little bit about is no matter when somebody joins the company, they have to spend time working in the restaurant, right? They have to be out there. What are the benefits of that and what does it yield in the future for executives who kind of grow up in the company or come from the outside and they get that first experience of being on the grill?

Lynsi Snyder: Oh, I’m going to correct you there first. Experience is definitely not on the grill because that’s one of the highest positions in the store. That’s. That’s like running the ship. So, you know, some of the first spots to work in the store when you start would be in the dining room. And, you know, you watch a lot of training videos. So we will have someone from the outside, an executive or someone in a certain role. They’re going to watch training videos. They’re going to watch stuff about our history or culture. They’re going to go to some classes. And yes, they’ll get a uniform and they’ll be put in front of customers, greeting them, wiping down tables, you know, doing some of those things that our new associates would be doing. And they might familiarize them with some other positions and, you know, show them around and have them work some other spots. But, you know, it’s important because, you know, that’s who we are. That’s what we’re all about, is about serving our customers and the standards we have, you know, wrapped around quality and cleanliness and service. And so whether you’re working in the legal department or HR. Or somewhere else, you must know, you know, the store, the operation inside out, like you need to know about it. And you might not have worked all those positions that you need to understand and you need to understand the standards and all of those different areas and and why quality is so important and why we’ve done things a certain way for, you know, 75 years. And so it’s really, you know, training is a huge part of in and out And looking back to our founders, my grandparents and my dad, my uncle, and how they led the way for us and showed us this is what in and out is all about. And we take that seriously and want to continue it.

Rusty Rueff: And then as a as a part of that training, where does the faith element show up? But when do you first introduce that as a new employees coming into the culture.

Lynsi Snyder: Yeah. So the faith piece in the company didn’t actually become evident or actualized until my uncle put scriptures on various packaging of a product in 1988. We’ve traced it back to. There was a lot of debate over that year, and we finally landed on 1988 and he had gotten saved. And and this was really just a few years before he died, honestly. So it was. By the grace of God, you know, it’s just wonderful. He was just a big personality, a joyful guy. And I think that he was just that exuberant. He’s like, I want to share this. And we’re a family company. You know, I’m a Christian. I want to put the faith out there. I’m not going to be ashamed. And so it was so cool that he did that. And, you know, it really it really gave me, I guess, that freedom to just continue it and take it further.

Joseph Honescko: Hey, everybody. If you’ve been listening to the show for a while, you probably noticed that this one feels just a little different. We had a more narrative intro. We jumped right into the guest and overall cut the time down quite a bit. You could say we’re in a prototyping phase as we try to make the best podcast possible for you, our audience. And we can only do this if you give us your feedback. So if you can please take 2 minutes and go to faith driven entrepreneur dot org slash podcast survey to answer a few quick questions. We’ll also put the link in the show description, but if you can do that, it will help us make sure that we’re producing something that will continuously add value to your week. All right. Now back to the show.

Henry Kaestner: Have you ever thought about expanding to places where maybe there is a culture that would love the excellence of in and out? They’d love the brand that’s being an iconic American West Coast brand. But the thing that you actually look at is the ability to be able to export a culture that is God honoring in a way where you have so much interaction with customers and a chance to talk about why you do what you do.

Lynsi Snyder: Oh, we can’t because we don’t compromise our quality ever. And our stores receive delivery every other day from our warehouses. So we do our own meats, we get the trucks in and we actually have our own guys, you know, take the meat off the bones, do the whole process and put it in our own patty machine and send those out to the stores we have. We take in our produce, we take in everything and we, you know, make sure everything is inspected and tested and perfect and then we send it to our stores. So the freshness factor would not allow us to expand like that.

Wiliam Norvell: I think a lot of entrepreneurs probably face this decision, right? Growth versus quality, this is what we kind of what we’re talking about. What makes you hold firm in that and how do you stay true to it?

Lynsi Snyder: Yeah, I think, you know, for me, I’m a big protector and, you know, that goes both with, you know, protecting my family’s legacy and what they’ve started and what I feel I’ve been entrusted with. You know, there’s a stewardship sense with not just from my family, but from God. And then, you know, just just knowing that it’s not about, you know, always making more money or, you know, oh, this would make us more known or whatever it is, you know, And I think I don’t want to compromise and just wanting to protect and preserve what has been so successful and what’s so special. So it’s been really easy for me, honestly, to say no to a lot of, you know, new ideas or everybody else is doing mobile ordering. You should do mobile ordering, you know, there’ll be more sales or, you know, you should do liquid cheese for the animal fries. It’ll be faster, it’s cheaper. You know, we just say no, because if it’s something that’s going to cut a corner off of quality, then it’s a no. And it’s not just quality of the product, it’s quality of service. So for mobile ordering, you’re going to change the In and out experience you’re not going to have because part of the in and out experience is just being greeted with a smile. The service, you know, just taking care of the customer in that way, not just taking the order here, you know, it’s different. So, you know, of course, there’s a lot of things that are put in front of us, but it just feels, I don’t know, I guess, natural for me to just protect.

Wiliam Norvell: That makes a lot of sense. And I’m curious because, you know, family businesses, of course, of this size and scale, where are places that you feel like your vision and your personality have been able to shine? And and how have you reconciled those with maybe what was and what needs to be?

Lynsi Snyder: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, you know, some of the big things would be just the style of leadership, you know, from the era of my grandfather, even to my my uncle and my dad, there was a very, you know, fear and intimidation, get it done task driven, you know, boss associate type relationship there. And I think that that’s something that with the help of a wonderful team and people buying into my vision we’ve turned that ship around and we we strive to lead by the style of servant leadership. And you know, we’ve done tons of workshops on just caring and training versus teaching and I think really investing in our people. And so we invest in them and turn they invest in others. And it just kind of trickles all around. And, you know, we’re so focused on the family atmosphere. And I think I’ve definitely made an impact on the culture when it comes to just the closeness. And even though we’re getting larger and larger, you know, we have our our leaders are brought together multiple times each year. And I’ve created a tradition that’s been happening since 2009 where I host an event at my dad’s ranch, and we have all of the divisional managers and up there it’s called Club 48, and we get together and in the early years we would go grocery shopping together and cook together and, you know, have a campfire and do all these fun things. And of course, the new guys would get it pretty bad. But now it’s grown into something where our travel and events team actually does the shopping and helps us put together a lot of the activities because it’s grown from just a handful of people to now, you know, with everyone, probably around 70 people. And it’s special. It’s like a family reunion slash fraternity slash jackass maybe. And everyone just, you know, from different states, that wouldn’t normally interact or able to just kind of let their hair down and be at ease. And they can talk about work because we always do, but also get into each other’s lives and just relax and have fun. And we do different team building things. But I feel like I’ve really brought people together and having not just the culture of yes, that my uncle really started with, you know, the excellence and training. But I think the culture of love with our leadership, I feel like I’ve been able to kind of infuse that and and, you know, and for me, it comes from God’s love. Like, I feel so forgiven and I feel God’s grace and I feel so much of his love over my life because of, you know, knowing him and failing him and asking for forgiveness and failing him and then coming back and just knowing that his love reaches past anything we can imagine to different people. And so my goal is for people to experience God’s love working that I know. And hopefully that is even experienced in the atmosphere as a customer.

Henry Kaestner: That’s a great line. My goal is that my employees might experience God’s love by working in and out. And how many employees do you have? Again?

Lynsi Snyder: Over 38,000.

Henry Kaestner: That’s quite a it’s quite a congregation.

Rusty Rueff: To that point of, you know, God’s love working through the organization. I know that you have supported and started for in and out a foundation and that foundation, that slave to nothing. And then you personally have a foundation that you’ve created around the a ministry called the Army of Love. Tell us about both of those and why you started them. And then. How is that also showing up as a part of this reinforcing of God’s love being shared through the company?

Lynsi Snyder: Yeah. So my grandmother, my uncle, my mom basically started the In and out Burger Foundation, which is fighting child abuse back in the eighties. And so, you know, as I was leading, I just felt like, wow, you know, a lot of time has gone by and, you know, to whom much is given, much is required. I feel like in and out success just we need to do more. We need to have another cause. And my husband and I had talked about, you know, being involved with fighting substance abuse because it affected both of our lives. I lost my father. He lost his younger brother. And currently he had at the time had another younger brother on heroin, on the streets. And so, you know, we just both felt so passionate about doing something there. And so as we’re going down that road to start that foundation, God just put it on my heart to include human trafficking, you know, fighting that as well. So that’s where slave to nothing came from. That’s the number two, because there’s, you know, the two different causes there. So, you know, that was something that launched another one of our can drives because in April we had the can drive since the eighties where we put the cans out. We put the information about the Children’s Foundation in and out burger Foundation, and we have a 3 to 1 donation match. And so for these donations in and out, it’s going to give back. And, you know, all of our causes in and out puts the money towards it. We’re not taking from any of the donations. So so every penny that is donated goes directly to fight these. And so slave to nothing. It’s the same model we have two can drive for slave to nothing one for Human Trafficking Awareness Month in January Prevention and then also October for substance abuse. So now we have the can drives three different months out of the year and three different focuses, different fights. And so, you know, that’s just, you know, using the platform that God’s given us to try to change lives and make a difference. And, you know, the third part of our Mission purpose statement is actually assisting our communities to become stronger, safer, better place to live. And so it’s also fulfilling the third part of our Mission Purpose statement.

Henry Kaestner: I’m impacted by the fact that you’ve got by leading by example with your faith and saying things like you just said, to whom much is given, much is expected, is great leadership by example to 38,000. I’d tell you that about a third of your customers at least know that in and out is motivated by their faith, largely because the way that you print on your products, I mean, you can’t go there more than once or twice without seeing what’s unique about your faith. And so any thoughts that you have about being bold?

Lynsi Snyder: Yeah, you know, I think it sounds silly, but the Instagram account has been an area where I’ve been really bold with my faith, and that’s probably where I catch the most persecution and is on there as well. So I try to discipline myself to not read comments, but it’s, you know, posting Bible verses and just sharing about different things and even pieces of my story or my life on there and some of the maybe some podcast or some faith interviews even, you know, putting the link on. And so I think I try to be pretty transparent about everything. Now I know there’s certain things I can stand up or be more vocal about, but then. We might not have the same platform ten years from now if I really did that. So I’ve talked to some different pastors and leaders and they just say, hey, you know, pray about the ones to really be a strong voice for. And the others just fight behind the scenes. And so, you know, that’s just something through prayer and talking to my husband and kind of leaning on some other spiritual people that I trust and love and just getting counsel. I do. But as far as being bold in my faith, I think that I mean, you should be uncompromised, you know, just needs to be all out. And again, like, you know, within our training, we teach a lot of biblical principles. We teach a lot of things that come right out of the Bible. And and then we talk about some. We we actually make the connection. And so we don’t hear a lot from the inside being against that. Now, of course, there are some, but it’s not. There are people that are invested in the vision and get behind it because they’re usually good things. They’re good things that they know are going to make them better leaders. So I don’t know. I mean, I think for anyone as a believer in business, no matter what you do, just. Don’t compromise your faith and don’t shy away. I believe the days are while we know our days are numbered, but we’re looking at end times and we need to be a brighter light now more than ever and need to shine and not hide it under a basket.

Henry Kaestner: So I see that on the Instagram account. You do such a great job of sharing your faith, celebrating different milestones at the company, and then celebrating your friends. Your Instagram posts are very selfless. They’re recognizing in appreciating other people. I don’t know whether these are people are just friends or if they’re coworkers, but you do that a lot. Is that a deliberate management thing that you’re doing?

Lynsi Snyder: That’s just what I’m passionate about. I guess. People I love I love people. I know that, you know, God’s obviously first, but the most tangible way of loving him is loving others. And so I think I’m a pretty I’m definitely an outgoing people type person and I’m a big hugger and I just respect and love so many people around me. And, you know, I’ve lost the closest people to me. I mean, my dad and my uncle were so close to me and losing them young just made me appreciate the people around me. So I don’t want to take them for granted and I want them to know that I love them.

Wiliam Norvell: Yeah. Thank you so much for walking through that. And unfortunately we have to come to a close and we’d love to come back to God’s word in the Scripture. And that could be something you’re reading right now, could be something that’s been on your heart your whole life, but just love to see if you wouldn’t mind sharing some piece of God’s word that’s important to you with our audience.

Lynsi Snyder: You know, my goodness, there’s so many pieces. There’s a lot of verses that I can call out that have brought like freedom more freedom in my life. And, you know, just being transparent. And, you know, I think it’s Galatians, it says confessing our trespass to one another so that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous man is availeth much so just, you know, that’s something that I did a lot of. And I feel like that can be an area in even Christian leaders lives where they might just hold on to something and say, well, God has forgiven me, but there’s power and actually speaking these things out, releasing them. Because if there’s anything that holds you from sharing those things in your testimony, that means there’s shame attached to it. There’s fear, there’s shame. And, you know, to be more free, it’s really, again, the truth. The truth will set you free. And, you know, God’s love can cover absolutely everything. And because I’ve been a believer all of my life and I’ve made such huge mistakes and fallen away that I hope that my life can speak to other believers that maybe feel like they’ve lost hope or retired God’s grace, you know, where there’s just not enough for them anymore. So, yeah, I just know that loving him first. You know in Matthew, loving God and loving others, you know, loving our neighbors as ourself, that’s just my life goal. And I think that there’s so many ways we can live that out. And, you know, my kids should be able to share that about me and, you know, people around me. And if people around you don’t know that, then we have to go back to the drawing board.

Joseph Honescko: Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. We’ve got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There’s no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at faith driven entrepreneur talk.

Recent Episodes

In this special episode of the podcast, we’re flipping the mic over to our co-host: Rusty Rueff as we interview him and his pastor, Terry Brisbane.

The two have been close friends for years and offer unique insight into what it looks like for entrepreneurs to partner with their churches. They’ve also recently co-authored a book called “The Faith Code: A Future-Proof Framework for a Life of Meaning and Impact.”

They join the show to discuss the framework they’ve developed and to help us see how pastors and entrepreneurs could work more closely together.

Link to the Book: https://www.amazon.com/Faith-Code-Future-Proof-Framework-Meaning/dp/1640656553

Link to Life Apps Teachings:

• https://www.cornerstonesf.org/sunday-message-category/life-apps/

• https://www.cornerstonesf.org/sunday-message-category/life-apps-v2/

• https://subsplash.com/cornerstonetv/media/ms/+f09eb15

Episode Transcript

Hello and welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We’ve got a special guest for this episode who’s going to sound familiar? However, listen, before today, we’re flipping the mic over to our co-host, Rusty Rueff, as we interview him and his pastor, Terry Brisbane, about their new book, The Faith Code A future Proof Framework for a Life of Meaning and Impact. They’ll also help us see how pastors and entrepreneurs can work together more closely. Let’s listen in.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Feature Announcement podcast. This is a very special edition. It’s infrequent that we turn the tables a bit and we interview a co-host. In fact, I don’t think we’ve ever done that before in 300 or so episodes. And so today we have Rusty with us. Rusty is going to change seats, so to speak, and we’re going to talk to him and his great friend Terry Brisbane about a new book that Rusty has come out with. If you’ve been paying attention to podcasts over the years, you know that Rusty is a part time sermon deliverer from his church in Rhode Island is very, very thoughtful about the way that God has worked in his life and the way that God works in work and has put together a blog that’s got more than 3500 entries now or something like that. So he’s constantly reading, constantly reading God’s Word and trying to understand how that applies to work generally. And then as an entrepreneur specifically in this time, he’s brought Terry and his great friend and pastor into the mix as well, and they’re going to be talking about this book, Faith Code. So, guys, welcome to the program.

Terry Brisbane: Oh. Great to be here

Rusty Rueff: Good to be here on this side. This is nice to be on this side. And there’s no prep on this site. We just show up.

Henry Kaestner: That’s right. You show up. That’s right. That’s right. And I’ve got triple the prep today because not only you’re not here to help me, but William’s not here either. And yet I know your heart well enough, and I get a chance to meet Terry. We were just talking about before we went live six or seven years ago to get a sense of who you are and you learn so much about somebody by meeting their spouse, but also in meeting their friends, and their pastor. And that’s a great privilege that I’ve had because I got a chance to come and hang out with you and David Brickner. Maybe we’ll talk about that relationship here. And second. In fact, they would say, And so what are you going to get today? Today you’re going to learn a little bit more about Rusty, the guy that brings you these stories every week. And then you’re also going to get some frameworks about how to think about living, how to think about work. But most importantly, one of the things we can get to is this is kind of a timeless framework, and that brings us to God, the timeless God who loves us. And so oftentimes we miss this kind of core DNA that’s been implanted in us, and we just can kind of crack the code on that. It’ll bring us into a life of more peace, fulfillment, mission and shalom. So we’re going to talk about all those things. But before we get to that and the substance of the book in the frameworks, etc., how did you guys meet? I wouldn’t say you’re an unlikely friendship and it shouldn’t be that way. Entrepreneur should be great friends with their pastors all over. But you guys model that out. How’d you guys meet?

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, I’ll start and Terry can jump in. By the way, I totally agree with you, Henry. I mean, the relationship that I have with Terry as my pastor and my friend is a true gift from God. And I think anybody who doesn’t take advantage of having a relationship with their pastor that transcends just being somebody who, you know, you shake hands on Sundays on the way out the door, or you occasionally get an opportunity to talk to. I think you’re missing out on something that God wants to have for you. So here’s how it happened. So Patti and I had moved to the West Coast for me to come to work for Electronic Arts. And, you know, when we moved out here, we come from Connecticut and Connecticut. We’d really had a difficult time finding a church that felt like us. And maybe it was because where we lived or just New England sensibilities, what I would say we were looking for was what many people would recognize as a seeker friendly church that the Willow Creek Association, you know, was known for like I would go online when I’d go out of town and I would look for Willow Creek Association churches, because I knew when I went into that church that I would find a welcoming spirit, I would find God’s word. But I also knew that it would be a place where the arts and music would be integral to that. And that was really important to me, but also really important to my wife because my wife had grown up Catholic. And the Catholic Church in her mind was just a little bit, you know, I don’t know the right word to use, not engaging maybe.

Henry Kaestner: Some can be that way. Some have been really encouraged recently. Some have been really encouraging, but some can be not.

Rusty Rueff: Yes. And where she grew up in the Bronx and in New York, you know, it wasn’t a place where there were a lot of young people. Okay. I digress. So we’d been out here and we’d started to talk about, you know, we really need to be in a church and we’re living down in Burlingame and we were in the city on a weekend, and it was an afternoon either Saturday or Sunday. I can’t remember. I think it was a Saturday. And we drove past on 17th Street and Valencia. We drive past and I look out the window of the car and I see a long line of people outside a building and they were all hip and cool.

Henry Kaestner: Was that Mitchell’s ice cream?

Rusty Rueff: No, it wasn’t. It was Cornerstone Church. It was Cornerstone Church. Right. And then the next day, there was an article in the paper about this Generation X church. So we said there’s a place we should go visit. Not knowing anything about it other than, you know, this might be the place. So we went. And once we started going, we never stopped. Yeah. And so we’d been there. I don’t know. We call him PT Pastor Terry. You know PT, I don’t know how long we’d been there, but I said, you know, it’s time for us to connect into the church. This time we’ve been coming here and we’ve now started direct our tithes here. It’s time to connect. And so I reached out to PT’s assistant by email and said, We would like to meet the pastor. And, you know, they don’t know who we are, you know, And there’s like, okay, he can meet with you Wednesday night after a Wednesday night service that they were having. And I said, Great, we’ll come into the city for that. That would be fantastic. And I warned Patti, I said, look, here’s the way it’s going to work. We’re going to go up. We’re going to meet with them. We’re going to introduce ourselves. And we’re you get like 15 minutes and that’s it. And don’t expect anything else. Right. He’s busy. He’s got a lot of stuff going on. Don’t expect anything else. Well, lo and behold, we went, we met, and I think we spent like almost an hour and a half. And so that’s my side of the story.

Henry Kaestner: PT. What’s your side of the story?

Terry Brisbane: I mean, it’s hard to walk back in time and remember that moment the way Rusty does. I do know that I was joking with Rusty. If we were the young and hip church then we’re now the oldest, the older church now and not as hip. And yet we still retain many of the the values and loves that were existent when Rusty first connected with us, when the world was a whole lot younger. And I think we struck up a friendship. There was a chemistry there, and there’s a lot to explore in this question that you presented in post. Henry You know, because I’m sure every pastor and I’m sure others who are leaders wonder, how does this work? You know, how do some people get a chance to build a relationship and maybe others don’t? There’s a lot of nuance and there’s a lot of things to explore just in that alone. How does that happen? And should it? In my case, it became a growth point for my life. I liked Rusty. I thought he was a very interesting person and he represented not only a sincere love for the church, which I saw that he was a if I can use this term, it may be a little dated, but he was a churchman. That is, he even though he was a CEO or working in the business marketplace at the time, in a very influential position, he had a deep love for God’s Word and a love for the church. I mean, there were some convictions to him that I appreciated, and I recognize that he himself was an expert or yeah, that’s what I would call it, someone who was well versed and learned in the marketplace. And there were things that I also could learn from him after. So there was an initial chemistry of just, Hey, I like this guy and he’s a serious person. And then that evolved into more exploration. That created a friendship, even though he was able to do something that I also appreciated, he was still honoring the office of my role as a pastor, and I felt that there was a wonderful humility, and yet there was something about his life, his position, what his knowledge base was that I could learn from as well. And I guess what I’m saying is, if you put all those things together, the genuineness of faith, a kind of dispositional ease with one another, and then an ability for me also to learn something, right. It wasn’t just giving, although I would do that. You always, as a pastor, have to weigh out your priorities just like anybody who’s in business does as well. You know. Where do you place your emphasis? I have basic rules that I go by, and that’s a discussion in and of itself. How do you establish where to give your time, priority wise and to whom? And what does that look like from a spiritual standpoint? And what is our responsibility before Christ? In my case, disposition, and we had a nice, complimentary relationship over time, I began to view him as a trustworthy person and someone who deeply loved the church. And he, Rusty, didn’t try to impose his way of thinking about how things should be done. He just he just came to help be part of the community. And in so doing, it just treated the beginning at the embryo that ultimately allowed for what we’ve become now in this expression, which we didn’t envision at the time, you know, years later, couple of decades now, this has evolved or it’s flourished in the direction that we didn’t anticipate. And now we’re both being able to make contributions out of that relationship for the Lord and hopefully for the benefit of others, for the healing of many and for some who we know now are in the marketplace and are searching for a better understanding of life architecture and values and truth and how to be a follower of Jesus in these complicated times with tremendous anxiety. And yeah, a lot of things that can get us off course. So that’s my long answer. Right.

Rusty Rueff: And I want to add one thing that he did that I think really validated the relationship was as a pastor, as he said, you know, he has to make his choices about priority of time and people. And who do you trust and who would you invest your time with? What he did and Terry, I don’t think you and I have ever talked about this. He introduced me to an associate pastor. That’s true, Pastor J.R. And he said, Rusty, I want you to spend time with J.R. and I want J.R. to spend time with you. And I could have looked at that in two different ways. So the first way I could have looked at it is like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. I’m a senior executive of a well-known company. I’m trying to get connected into the church. I’ve got a bunch of talents. I’ve got some resources to bring here. You know, kind of like when you join a new board, you know, for a nonprofit or something, you have to make a decision, you know, how are you going to respond to how they’re going to interact with you? And so I could have gone at it in one way and said, well, come on. What’s this guy doing? You know, pushing me off. Instead, I looked at it the other way. I said he was willing to take I trusted a really trusted long term friend, senior leader of his team, and say to them, I want you to spend time with Rusty. I want you to devote time to him. And, Rusty, would you devote your time to J.R. And J.R. and I started meeting together once a week. He would drive down to my neck of the woods in Burlingame, in Millbrae, and we would get together once a week and we would have coffee and we would talk. And the Bible that I hold here in my hand, the one that I call my Holy Mess, which is soul written up and almost falling apart, you know, June 10th, 2003, from J.R.. You know, Rusty, thanks for the blessing. Love, J.R.. And through that relationship, there was a validation of, well, okay, this guy that just shows up out of nowhere, you know, is not a guy that’s just going to take my time and run away. He’s invested now in the church and in a member of my staff. And my staff is coming back and saying, you know, this guy, he’s the real deal. It’s great. And I think sometimes, Henry, what happens is, you know, we see some of these safeguards that I truly, honestly believe in my heart that pastors must have. Otherwise, you know, there’s an enemy out there that could take advantage of them. They must have these safeguards. And we can misinterpret that as they’re being standoffish or, you know, they’re not, you know, so open or engaging or any of those things. I’m so glad I didn’t take that path. What I looked at it was he’s investing in me in a way that I wouldn’t have imagined.

Henry Kaestner: Okay. So I want to get. At some point in time here to the framework that PT mentioned just a bit ago. But before we do that, I want to get a little bit more into your partnership. And it’s a leading question, and I’ll tell you where I’m going with it. I believe that one of the most missed opportunities we have is with entrepreneurs and business owners being in relationship with the pastoral staff at their church and vice versa, and that it’s been a miss, entreprenuers feel, that pastors don’t get them. Pastors don’t feel that entrepreneurs get them. And there is, especially in a church environment, I’ve heard this from others and I felt it myself, where that pastor is just not really interested in getting really involved in what I’m doing six days a week. But he is interested in having me get drawn closer to Jesus in terms of discipleship. And yet there’s this kind of this missing each other because where I learn about God and Jesus is in the workplace, that’s where I am in. I need some practicality. I need something that I can operationalize because I’m an entrepreneur. I want you guys to riff on that a little bit because I do it and I want it to be a little bit because I want to get to the framework in the book. But Rusty, because I’m closest to you, I have a good sense about what you’ve been able to pick up from Pastor Terry. Pastor Terry, I don’t know if I have the same sense from what you’ve learned by being in serious, committed relationship with somebody in the marketplace, what has that shown you in a way that’s made you and maybe I shouldn’t be so presumptuous about this, but. Well, maybe I should, because you’ve been spending 20 years in friendship with the guy. But what has made you a better pastor, a better disciple, a better friend in a better position to be able to minister to people in the marketplace?

Terry Brisbane: Okay. I’m going to answer that question from a different angle of approach. I want to suggest that not all pastors are uniformly the same. I know that’s you’re very well aware of that. Just like every business leader is different, every entrepreneur’s different. There’s probably more similarities, but there are distinct differences. Some are more by nature, I would say, people oriented. Love meeting needs, love, caring and take a very pastoral shepherding approach. Others such as myself, not that I would push those things aside, but my primary gifts tend towards leadership. And I’m a pastor and a CEO as well. So there are things that I’m responsible for that definitely overlap with business and the marketplace. It’s just that my world is a world of primarily being a doctor as well of the soul and a teacher of the way of Jesus. And that’s exactly how we constructed our book, by the way. We tried to stay in our place of predominant expertise, but that overlap is what I’m trying to get at. That’s where I found I could learn a lot. Now I’m in a nonprofit ministry, right? Church. My primary mandate is not to make money. I don’t answer to necessarily the same kind of shareholders or the same kind of a board. I have actually a little bit more autonomy to lead the church, predominantly as far as cornerstones concern its founding pastor in that regard as Cornerstone is in here in the city of San Francisco. But I had a lot that I could learn about principles, about the marketplace, about how to engage people who have I’m going to use this word people who have a degree of power and means no one trained me how to do that. That was not my world. In fact, if anything, I think I was uncomfortable with people who had an abundance of resources or power or perhaps a reputation because I didn’t want to cater to that and be a respecter of persons. And as a result, I think I may not have actually properly known how to engage the way that Rusty helped me. He didn’t even know he was doing it. But as time went on, because of his humility and genuineness but his skill sets, it allowed me to learn things about a kind of way of living that I was not necessarily as knowledgeable about. And I had to learn. I had to learn not to allow. I know this is going to sound super strange to maybe just some of the audience, but sometimes pastors are reluctant to reach out or push too far into a relationship with people maybe in the marketplace who are great leaders or who have an abundance of resource because it’s the exact opposite reason. They don’t want to feel like they’re catering to someone just because. Well, the Book of James talks about it because they are rich. And how do you do this at the same time, realizing that here’s a person who has gifting and capacities and a knowledge base that can not only help me to minister better to people across the board, but also can help me understand, you know, how to be a missionary in a city that’s filled with people who have an entrepreneurial heart. So how do I do that? But what I’m saying is this depending on the type of person we are, some people struggle with, I’m attracted to that person because of what they can give us. And I guess maybe part of me was afraid of that in my own heart. I didn’t want to be owned by anybody. I just wanted to be able to do what Jesus asked me to do, not as a respecter of persons. And so for me personally, that was one of the best things the Lord did through our relationship. It helped me to learn how to engage and how to be okay with that in my heart, because my initial tendency was, I don’t want to do this because, you know, why would I give this person preferential treatment?

Henry Kaestner: I think that I follow that. What have you learned generally about So you’re in a unique spot. Silicon Valley, San Francisco, known for the number of entrepreneurs in the innovation and the creativity that happens in the marketplace. Is there anything that you’ve learned about the needs of a Christ follower by engaging with Rusty or other business people? That helps you say, You know what, I actually need to camp out on this passage more in Ephesians because I have sense that when somebody is dealing with always trying to sell something to somebody or trying to raise capital or battling with channel conflict, I’ll fill in the blanks on these different things. My sense is that folks in the marketplace need to camp out on this more because, you know, there’s idols for all of us, Christ followers, and especially all that live in America. We’re all susceptible to elements of the American dream. But my sense is that people in the marketplace that are where I serve are particularly prone to this level. And I don’t know that I got that before really engaging with Rusty or somebody else.

Terry Brisbane: Yeah. I mean, it gave obviously greater insight to the unique challenges that are faced by entrepreneurs and business leaders in Rusty’s case. He is an executive, a leader working at a high level. Also watched him transition into the challenges of becoming a CEO and all the unique pressures that went along with that. It became apparent to me that they’re just like everybody else today. You know, you might be really skilled in one area of your life, but you might have another area where it’s very deficient. And I’m not suggesting that was Rusty, but it did give me insight to the fact that there are real needs here. There are real pressures that are being faced. We sometimes miss the fact that success not only has a price tag, but sometimes it’s illusionary. It may appear to others that you have everything you’ve achieved, but there are certain pitfalls that go along with that. You can become consumed and out of proportion. You can have a very weak soul. You can have relationships that are disintegrating. You can be filled with anxiety that is almost crippling. The pressure itself of succeeding. And then what do you do next even after you have. That’s a hard thing. Those are hard things. Those are real things. Those are things that if people aren’t careful, they’ll start to try to fill that. I’ll call it that tension, that pain, that stress. How about that? With things that are not helpful and we start to justify doing things that are very damaging to ourselves, easily fall into addictive patterns. We become toxic in our relationships. So I’ve learned a lot about that just by watching the pressure cooker that many of our audience is obviously having to deal with. And, you know, success is an interesting thing because what is success? Is it achieving? Is it getting the funding? Is it building? And what next? And we have an entire chapter. I’m just trying to go back to the book, but in the faith code, we talk about what is true riches and what do we do with what Jesus taught us there about what is really valuable, about how we love, how we work, the way we heal, you know, all these things, right? So, you know, we could go off on that.

Henry Kaestner: I want to go off on that. So much of the book revolves around what it means to live a good life. You know, the success that you see some of these Silicon Valley CEOs achieve. You write by in answering the question, it means constantly revisiting four phases of life. And here we come into it because I love frameworks. So you talk about framework, you talk about design perspective, evaluation. Talk about that a bit.

Terry Brisbane: Yeah. I mean, Rusty you are okay, if I just jump in and do that.

Rusty Rueff: Go ahead

Henry Kaestner: And I’d love for you to tell it for the listeners here. One of the things that’s really unique and I think really helpful about the way the book is set up is it starts off with a theological concept by PT and then Russ. He comes in and talks about some of the application about how he sees that working out in a business life. I think that that one two combo is really helpful. So yeah, let’s absolutely, let’s do that here. Why don’t you start. Rusty why do not you fill in?

Terry Brisbane: Yeah. And I want to also acknowledge that was beautifully phrased, the way that you framed the very book itself. Henry We both will overlap into the others lane periodically. So it’s not completely siloed and nor should it be. I mean, Rusty is wrestling with biblical principles at times, and there are times where I will jump into life management and business principles indirectly, leadership principles, certainly, because you all know we can’t lead anything beyond where we lead ourselves. However, having said that, we go back to the framework, we talk about the framework, we’re talking about basically the foundations, the foundational principles by which we live. We use a quote from Archimedes, the great Greek engineer, mathematician of ancient days. He talks about give me a lever long enough in a place to stand and I can move the earth. Of course, Jesus talked about if you have faith the size of the mustard seed, you can see that mount be moved. I mean, there’s a real similarity there. The idea of a place to stand. That’s what we talk about, frame. We talk about really our foundational principles. Jesus mentioned I will like I’m the one who hears these sayings of mine and these words and does them to a wise man who builds a house that truly lasts as true a business as well, I would imagine, because it has eternal consequence. And that’s part of the reason why we talk about futureproof. But that’s another discussion. The framework, the foundation, the way I describe it, the idea of design, it has to do with the sense of growing, building, cultivating. So think of a a good analogy would be you have a foundation that is solid. You start to build a framework and you can see the frame of what’s the structure, and then you have to fill it in. I like to think of the filling in as the perspectives that we talk about how do we tie things together so that these concepts encouraging everyone to engage on a daily life implementation approach. You know, how we love, how we work, how we relate, how we heal, how we deal with our own self-inflicted wounds, how we forgive all those things. Right? That’s the perspective piece. And then we talk about evaluation. And when I mean evaluation, we’re talking about honest reflection. We’re talking about a commitment to maintain quality and then, of course, a principle that so many business leaders would know and understand the idea of continual adjustment. We have to ask why? Because according to Jesus teachings of Scripture, we’re all prone to drift. And I include pastors and spiritual leaders. I can drift. So we need to constantly remind ourselves of our foundational principles, the structure that we’re building with our life, and then how that’s actually showing up. And then, like I said, we evaluate it. And then if I can anchor with this, we talk about having a steadfast commitment, but also. Cultivating a kind of vital optimism is anchored in the hope of Christ. That Joy. It goes beyond even our circumstances when we’re building on the right things in the right way. We’re being honest and humble. We’re being accountable. We’re bringing others in the conversation. The remarkable aspect of this will be that we will be shocked at the good that we can do for the Kingdom of God in ways seen in ways not seen in ways that will be obvious in the generation of our lifetime. Listen, here’s the part that goes in the future futureproof. It’s like an arrow shot through time. The Lord doesn’t return. First it will have an effect on generations, some of whom people we will never actually meet or see, who will become part of a connected faith story. And we will be part of that story. So it is worthy evaluating. And that’s the last part. That’s the capstone for me. And it requires, like I said, continually looking at our own hearts before the Lord and readjusting, making adjustments. And last one, I’ll add. It has to be seasonal, too, because every season is this unique transition point. And that means we revisit these principles in different seasons and stages of our life. If we can do that, the oddity would be if we didn’t have a life that had blessing in it that extended beyond our own lifetime.

Henry Kaestner: You said something in there. I think that was really, really important because you get at some of the ambiguity around things like how do we define success? What’s the point of it? How do we know if we’re there or are we going after the right thing or not? And in this concept, evaluation is what we’re doing. And if we have the right framework, does it leave us with this sense of vital optimism? So many different frameworks that lead with what the Earth would say, the world would say is success will leave the person who’s achieved it with the sense of a cynicism and just jaded ness. And you see that in collections of successful people that don’t know Jesus. And to some extent I find it creeping into my own life. And but there’s a joy. It was based on the rock. There’s a vital optimism, and we know how the story is going to end. We can look at all the things are going around us in terms of the geopolitical environment, and we can just find that, you know, if we haven’t designed with right framework, we can be left with a sense of depression or just like helplessness. If, however, we design the right way, we can say, Well, we’ve been successful on this because we’re left with this sense of vital optimism. And that’s that I want to spend time reflecting on that. I think that was great. Rusty, why don’t you comment on that, too? Why don’t you also talk about how you see that framework apply in the life of an entrepreneur? Because you know our audience so well.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, sure. So what I love about yeah, let me say it. What I love about what we did is, you know, we took a metaphor of the technology world. You know, frameworks and platforms and applications and tried to turn it into something that, you know, we all could relate to and understand. And you know, what you walk away with, we hope is what Terry just talked about, how we internalize this faith code and how we’re being and our ability to have a wonderful gift from God to go directly to the source code. Right. Which we have in his scripture that we can constantly be testing ourselves against and going back to when we think that the framework is getting shaky or, you know, it’s not exactly where we want it to be. But at the same time, if that’s all we did, we’d be missing out because the other side of the framework is then the doing piece is externalizing the framework, taking it into our work, the things that we do, the relationships that we have, the cultural influence that we might have around us, our health, the way we have fun, we recreate, we enjoy our life. And if you think about it and you let the framework actually drive your life, you will carry everything about your being into your doing and you’re doing Henry will give you, which is what we write about in the faith code, a chapter called The Irresistible Attitude. Right to have an attitude of joy, of hope, of encouraging others, of feeling like life can be something that if we continue to tap into it, it can be abundant and joyful and flourishing, which is what the God of love wanted us to have. Right. I mean.

Henry Kaestner: A life have it to the full. Tell me about frameworks. I want to get into something because you introduce in a book. I think that’s interesting. So an original, maybe not the original, but an original framework that we see in Scripture Ten Commandments, where sometimes we look for a list of do’s and don’ts. But you have this great emphasis on grace and love throughout the book and even suggest that healthy framework as presented in the Ten Commandments is about grace and love and not just a sense of rigid do’s and don’ts. So I want to be careful about overstating what you guys are talking about in terms of frameworks. It’s this attitude towards joy and grace in the sense of this abundance, and with the result being joy and this vital optimism we talked about, but not necessarily this rigorous sense that’s constraining us. Can you unpack that both. Maybe PT you start off with it about how you view the Ten Commandments that might be different than most people who might interpret it as a list of do’s and don’ts?

Terry Brisbane: Well, first off, the Commandments were built like a constitution for a nation that didn’t have an identity, that it was absolutely a gift of grace. There’s no other way around it. It was as if God was giving them something that would allow them to have a framework to build something that even now, if you think about it, it’s still there in some form. It’s what God used to bring forth Messiah. Jesus. The law in its most condensed form. The commandments were actually words of grace. Even though they look like very constrictive rules, they were designed to help bless Israel as a people. And of course, the ultimate fulfillment of that is Christ. So we’re not trying to live in the Old Testament, but at the same time, you see the consistency even when we get to Jesus, it says he was full of grace and truth. It’s not one to the neglect of the other. This is this beautiful tension in the Scripture that is constantly being revealed to us. God deals with us out of the place of boundaries for our own well-being. Every one of those rules that God gave to Israel was designed for their blessing, not for their hurt. God never gives us things that are designed to cheat us. This is the thing. God’s commandments, as we’re told in the Scriptures, are not grivious. At its core, it’s not meant to keep us from some. That’s the lie. If you want to get back to that, that goes all the way back to the beginning. The first recorded human being and that family there that fell into the broken place in our sin and part of world. What was the suggestion that this boundary for you is to your detriment? But the truth of the matter is, God never does things to our detriment. His laws and rules and principles are boundaries designed to safeguard is no different than a guardrail on the side of a highway around a very dangerous cliff that’s designed to save me. People say I don’t want a guardrail. I don’t need that. Yeah, well, you can go your own way. But the Bible tells us our own way is the way of foolishness, and it leads to death. And ultimately, it is the loss of freedom, not the gaining of freedom. The beautiful thing is when we honor the law and walk, submitted to his truth. We gain freedom. We lose it when we go our own way because we so easily fall into bondage. What God is trying to do was spare his Old Testament church from the pain of the culture that would destroy it.

Henry Kaestner: So I love that what you’re getting at here is what’s the motives to why? And I don’t think I’ve ever spent much time thinking about why did we get to ten commands and know what the Ten Commandments are? But why? To guide us. And so you’ve given us a different perspective on that, which I get. It’s awesome. He gave it to us as a gift, as a love in grace.

Rusty Rueff: As a father.

Henry Kaestner: Who loves his children and knew that he loves his children. You have a four year old. You give them some rules because it’s for their own good. It’s not because you’re trying to constrain them, it’s because you want to see them flourish. And without those rules, they’re not going to flourish. So but it brings me to the question of motive and why. Okay. So now you’ve helped us understand a bit about why God, brought us the Ten Commandments. Why did the two of you write this book?

Rusty Rueff: Well, there’s a story behind it, because it originally started with a presentation that I made 20 plus years ago when the iPhone came out and we started to get applications and there’s an app for that. And I, I gave this presentation at Purdue. Are you building your life as a platform or an app? And it resonated. And because we were in conversation, because Terry and I we’re in constant conversation, you know, I shared with him, you know, I mean, this presentation and it did this and people commented on it. It was Terry’s idea. Along the way, he said, well, what if we turn that into a message series? And we did. We had a message series called Life Apps where he taught. And then he had me do a little video segment. It’s really cool videos that I would go out and shoot all around the Bay Area with the audio visual team that were just a like applications. And so we did that and then that went really well at the church was 12 part series. And then we kept talking about it, We kept talking and we kept talking and you know, one day we said, you know, we’ve done all this. Maybe we’ll turn it into a book. And it would have been a lot easier to go back and do another video segment than writing a book. But, you know, it took us eight years, eight years from the time we said we ought to write a book to, you know, getting that book out in September.

Henry Kaestner: Can the videos be found?

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, they’re on Cornerstone SF.

Henry Kaestner: if you really want them. You read the book, you know, like, Gosh, I need more of this. And I just I need more of Rusty. And I want to see what Rusty look like eight years ago, and I almost got the rusty Rusty. We did a we did a session, a podcast episode, maybe like number seven or eight where you said, Hey, I’ve written a framework on something and people continue to come in looking for that, right?

Rusty Rueff: Oh, yeah, that was number 16. It was episode 16 that we did together and I had just thrown out there, Hey, I’ve got this one page roadmap framework where you can distill the entire company and your goals and objectives and align the entire company on one page. And yeah, how many episodes are we now? 500 plus or whatever, you know, and we still get people.

Henry Kaestner: The problem is now when people ask it, you know, if it comes from episode six or episode number of 500, actually, I don’t think we have 500 but FDE and FDI combined, right? We probably do. Okay. So now I want to get back to the framework. So we’ve looked a little bit about why framework you went ahead and had this original series. It went well with people in the marketplace and like, let’s work on this and let’s go ahead and put together a book unless you want to make more comments on that, if I missed it, because otherwise, I mean, getting into acronym CARES, I like acronym, I like frameworks. Rusty you use CARES to talk about and define love.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. One of the things you’ll find in the faith code is I love acronyms because I think acronyms we can remember, right? And it’s just a nice way of capsizing thing. And so, you know, we say that love cares. It’s obvious, right? Love cares. But if you take apart the word cares, what we say is it’s C A R E S. But first of all, love is creative. You know, we’re made in the image of God. And you think about, you know, the times when you really are expressing love at the highest level that you can, you know, with somebody else. Many times that involves creativity, right? That we love to be creative in our love. So love is creative. Secondly, we say that love is abundant. That we are to love abundantly. And that the resources of the world are limited. But our power to come up with new ways to be regenerative, if you will, with love, that’s not limited at all. So love, love should be abundant. Thirdly, we take the word R. We say love takes and encourages responsibility. And I think we all know that, you know, the people that love us the most and the people that we love the most, there’s a sense of responsibility that comes with that relationship. And there’s a sense of responsibility that comes with love. And, you know, we were given the ultimate love of God to forgive our sins. And that was a gift. But with a gift, you don’t just take a gift and throw it out. You take the gift and you take a responsibility with that gift. Fourthly, we say that love empowers. You know, love is not top down. You know it’s not. Do what I say. But really, love is bottoms up. So, you know, what do you think? And that people can bring all their gifts to bear. And then lastly, love stewards. You know, I love to acknowledge the fact that everything we have ultimately belongs to God and should be used for his purposes. And when we have many abundances and a lot of something or even a little of something. You can go back to that word responsibly. You know, we are to steward something that we get. So, you know, love is, you know, in this time of, you know, where we use the word generative, you know, all the time with generative AI, it’s regenerative, it’s a win win, and it’s a cycle that we can play over and over with that word cares. And that’s the concept we put out there. And, you know, if we do that, I think, you know, love can be a cycle for us and we can run it over and over and over and over. And it just gets better and better.

Henry Kaestner: So, so much more that we can talk about on this subject and maybe we can have the opportunity to because we’ve talked a bit about the relationship between an entrepreneur and a pastor, and I’m richer for the experience. So much of what we do, by the way, at faith driven entreprenuer for in partnering with the local church is one of the 12 marks and so many of our faith driven entrepreneur groups. In fact, most of them happen at a local church, which connotes some level of partnership with pastoral staff and how important it is that the entrepreneur is brought into the local church. We’ll talk more about that maybe on another podcast. We’ll also have an opportunity, hopefully to talk more about the faith. Go in the meantime, go on buy the book, buy the book, Get a sense for this future proof of concept and so many of you. And again, it’s so much fun. I told this to Rusty. I go to Uganda, I get off the plane, a woman picks me up and she says, I’m just jet lag and feel like I could use some encouragement. She says, I got to tell you, I love the podcast. You want to know who my favorite podcast co-host is? I’m sure she’s going to say it’s me. I’m sure of it. And of course she didn’t. She said, It’s rusty. So if you want to know more about Rusty in the way that he thinks about things, faith code, we’ve got to check it out. So just in a couple of minutes we’ve got left. I do want to finish out, as we do with our podcast, which is what are you hearing from God through his word? Both of you, PT I want you to go first and then Rusty circles out.

Terry Brisbane: Uh, two things. Probably the first one. In times like these Galatians six, you know, let us not be wearing what we are doing for in due time, we shall reap if we faint, not stay with the good thing. Watch your soul guard. Your heart is what I’m hearing. And that really does lead me into my other one, which just from Colossians two six. And now, even as you accepted Jesus as your Lord, here’s the phrase. Continue to follow him. I love that. Continue. you must continue to follow him. And for me, that again, goes back to something I alluded to earlier when we were having our discussion. Watch out for drift. Watch out for drift. A little folding of the hands. Be careful. Just because we know something doesn’t mean we’re going to do it. We need to practice what we want others to follow, and we want to make sure that we are taking seriously my own soul. So when I talk about how the Lord is also speaking to me, I think I’m hearing and I heard the phrase somewhere, but it’s been sitting with me. The goal is progression, not perfection. I want to keep growing. I want to keep that growing. Yet I want to keep pursuing vital optimism. I want to do what the Lord asks me to do. I want to be wearing, well, doing so. That’s what’s on my heart right now. I want to stick with it, run a good race.

Rusty Rueff: It’s awesome for me at Cornerstone in the summer, read a New Testament reading plan that Terry and the team put out and I follow along and I really got stuck in. Paul’s letters to the churches because I think Paul’s just amazing as he carries, you know, one message to another church and another, and he learns along the way and, you know, they just get richer and richer. And in second Corinthians 13 five, a, a verse grabbed me. It just grabbed me. And I haven’t been able to let go of it. And it is examine yourselves to see if your faith is really genuine, right to see if it’s really genuine. Test yourselves. If you cannot tell, the Jesus Christ is among you. It means that you have failed the test. And it just convicted me. And where I am right now is I am examining and I’m testing to make sure that Jesus Christ is among me and among the things that I’m doing. And. If he’s not, there’s no grading on the curve. It says here it’s pass fail. It’s pass fail. And it’s a new standard for me.

Henry Kaestner: There’s two things we got left. Let me suggest that is almost impossible to do that by ourselves. And that, I think is part of the lesson that I’ve seen in the way that you’ve been in relationship with PT with David, so that you can examine each other. It’s hard to do by yourself. I’m grateful for each of you. I’m grateful for Rusty, for our friendship. I’m grateful for the subject matter of the book and help him understand. So why did God give us a […..]? There’s so many different things I picked up from. Until next time, Rusty and I are signing off. God bless you all.

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