What if everything you’ve believed about rewards, heaven, and happiness has been subtly—but profoundly—off? Randy Alcorn, author of Treasure Principle, Heaven, and 63 other books, sits down with Justin Forman to untangle decades of misplaced theology that has quietly shaped how entrepreneurs think about ambition, eternity, and the joy of their work.

From the Greek word behind “blessed” to Jim Elliot’s famous quote about gain, Randy brings his signature precision and warmth to questions that matter deeply for anyone building something for the long run. Discover why God’s law of rewards isn’t a concession to selfishness—it’s an invitation from a Father who delights in generosity. And find out why the new earth may have more in common with your best workday than with a worship set that never ends.

Whether you’re picking up Treasure Principle for the first time or returning to it after years, this conversation will give you the eternal perspective to see your work, your money, and your calling differently.

00:00 Opening: Happiness, holiness, and a famous quote

01:15 Justin’s first encounter with Treasure Principle

02:04 How Treasure Principle came to be—and its unexpected reach

03:20 The context of rewards: Where did we get off track?

04:31 The Protestant Reformation’s overcorrection on works

06:00 What we missed about rewards in Scripture

07:54 Entrepreneurs, ambition, and the balance of rewards

09:21 Are rewards built into creation—or just a sin problem?

13:24 “Well done”: Why refusing reward misses the point

15:08 FDE Foundation Groups Ad

15:26 Humbition: Humility meets ambition

16:28 Happiness vs. holiness—unpacking the real distinction

18:54 Why “God cares only about holiness” sounds spiritual but isn’t

19:03 The Greek word behind “blessed”—and what it actually means

23:04 It is more “happy-making” to give than to receive

24:01 How little it takes to miss so much

25:21 Ebenezer Scrooge: A picture of true conversion

28:07 Why are we afraid of joy?

28:17 Jim Elliot and the pursuit of eternal gain

30:09 The currency exchange: Alan Barnhart and lifestyle limits

31:10 The Barnhart family: Hummers vs. Kingdom giving

34:22 FDE for Teens Ad

35:26 What entrepreneurs get wrong about heaven

36:16 Bucket lists and the new earth

39:32 Bodies, resurrection, and what the new earth really means

41:13 What does work look like after the Fall is reversed?

41:46 Work before the curse—and what’s coming

44:43 The joy of activity and the myth of endless leisure

46:12 Randy’s writing rhythm: 11pm to 3am

48:28 Night owl by nature—from astronomy to authorship

49:25 Legacy vs. what you set in motion

50:19 The through line across 65 books: Eternal perspective

53:47 Justin’s closing encouragement: Pick up Treasure Principle

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Pete Ochs needed workers. What he found inside a maximum security prison changed the way he thinks about business, stewardship, and what it means to follow Jesus in the marketplace.

In 2005, Pete moved part of his manufacturing company inside Hutchinson Correctional Facility in Kansas — one of the most unconventional business decisions in the faith-and-work movement. Twenty years later, the results speak for themselves: men coming to Christ, completing seminary, raising money for each other’s families, and walking out of prison ready to lead.

Pete and Justin Forman explore the triple bottom line of economic, social, and spiritual capital — and what it really looks like to lead with a job, build authentic relationships, and trust God to open the doors of spiritual transformation. They also dive deep into the stewardship question Pete has wrestled with for 30 years: How much is enough? — and how a small group of entrepreneurs committed to capping their lifestyles and stewarding the delta has shaped Pete’s vision for finishing well.

If you’ve ever wondered whether your business could be a vehicle for real, lasting transformation — this episode is for you.

00:00 Introduction — Two Gang Leaders, One Gospel

00:52 About the FDE Podcast

01:22 Luis Gutierrez’s Story: From Prison to Purpose

02:35 Pete Enters the Prison for the First Time

05:06 The Triple Bottom Line: Economic, Social & Spiritual Capital

07:10 Justin & Pete: 20 Years of the Faith & Work Movement

07:59 How Pete Got Into Prison Ministry (It Started With Labor)

09:34 Moving a Business Inside a Maximum Security Prison in 30 Days

11:48 What Pete Found Inside: A Desert of Human Flourishing

13:57 The Danger of Labels — Why Pete Stopped Asking What They’re In For

15:01 Casting Vision: “Let’s Be the Best Prison in America”

17:14 Louie Gutierrez: Wrote a 40-Page Manual, Got Paroled, Now Thriving

18:13 How Jobs Reduce Recidivism & Help People Reenter Society

19:02 Culture, Excellence & Doubling Output Inside the Prison

20:51 The Good Samaritan as the Blueprint for Business as Mission

22:36 Why Isn’t This Happening in Every State?

25:19 China vs. Mexico vs. Prison: A Business Decision Framework

27:25 From Financial Stewardship to Full Surrender

28:28 The Journey from Generosity to True Stewardship

33:03 Two Gang Leaders Come to Christ — and Lead Together

36:07 Inmates Out-Give Civilians 3 to 1

39:35 The “How Much Is Enough?” Question That Changed Everything

43:54 Pete’s Vision for Entrepreneurs: Finish Well, Pass It On

45:55 Closing: What’s Your Next Step?

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Journey with 10-15 other Entrepreneurs through the
8-week Study. Don’t Journey Alone. Find your Community.

Alan Barnhart built one of the most remarkable companies in America—and then gave it away. As co-founder of Barnhart Crane & Rigging, Alan and his brother grew a two-bedroom family operation into a $400M+ business with over 1,000 employees. But the more remarkable story isn’t the growth. It’s what they decided to do with it before it ever began.

In this episode, Alan unpacks the two scriptural convictions that shaped 40 years of business decisions: the stewardship of everything and the very real danger of wealth. He shares how he and Katherine capped their lifestyle before the company took off, why they transferred 99% of the company to a ministry trust, and how collaborative giving has become the engine for Kingdom impact they never could have imagined alone.

This is a rare, honest conversation about money, generosity, family, and what it really means to hold everything with an open hand.

00:00 Intro: Ask the owner

01:08 Who is Alan Barnhart? Hobbies, backpacking & Kilimanjaro

03:28 Date nights, Scrabble & real popcorn

04:14 Growing up in the family business

05:38 The faith and work conversation: Seeds of stewardship

06:46 Early generosity: Ethiopia, World Vision & cassette tapes

08:06 Coming back to the family business fired up for Jesus

09:17 Two biblical convictions: Stewardship and fear of wealth

10:02 Jesus warned about wealth more than anything else

11:56 The early decision: Capping the lifestyle before it started

13:29 What was God doing? Alan pushes back on his own story

14:47 The first time Justin heard Alan’s story

16:40 Why they made these decisions for self-preservation, not spirituality

18:21 Money as a tool of the enemy

19:17 The question everyone asks: “What’s the number?”

22:53 The hardest conversations: Raising kids with a capped lifestyle

25:20 Kids, inheritance, and expectation management

27:34 Is the world more greedy today?

29:36 Why they didn’t tell their story for the first 15 years

32:58 The stewardship of your story

34:47 Collaborative giving: From reactive to strategic

36:54 The shift: From emotional giving to data-informed, spirit-led

38:37 The danger of giving to what makes you feel good

41:10 Why collaboration is a necessity for hard places

43:54 The 35-year-old entrepreneur: How to give intentionally without 30 staff

44:40 The arc of the faith and work movement: 1980s to now

46:06 The compounding impact of giving now vs. later

47:59 Closing word of encouragement

50:01 Katherine and Alan’s full story (Generous Giving video)

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Journey with 10-15 other Entrepreneurs through the
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What does a trailer park and a million-dollar home have in common? When Ron Blue counseled both a major grocery chain CEO and a heart surgeon about money, he discovered the same answer: contentment isn’t a number—it’s a posture. And that posture starts with one question: Who owns it?

Ron Blue has spent 50+ years at the intersection of biblical wisdom and financial practice. He built what is now one of the nation’s top 50 accounting firms, founded Blue Trust (a Christian wealth management firm whose clients gave away half a billion dollars last year), and trained over 4,000 financial advisors to steward capital for Kingdom impact. In this conversation with Justin Forman, Ron traces the arc of the stewardship movement—from the days when no one equated the Bible with money, to the rise of faith-driven investing, to the challenge of building businesses that outlast their founders.

Along the way, Ron tackles the questions entrepreneurs avoid: How much is enough? What does succession look like when you’re a steward, not an owner? And what happens when God calls you away from a firm you built with a million dollars of equity—but only 35% vested?

00:00 Opening: The grocery CEO in the trailer park

01:09 FDE Podcast Intro

01:21 God’s mega-trends: Seasons of stewardship

02:44 Money as ministry, not a program or product

03:57 Upstream vs. downstream: What stewardship really means

07:06 Ron Blue the serial entrepreneur: A flyover

07:45 Giftedness discovered: Taking the complex and making it simple

08:18 Starting the accounting firm: Serving Main Street

10:04 Hiring the person who finished first on the CPA exam

11:11 Building a platform for other people’s ministry

12:04 What entrepreneurship actually takes: 10 years

13:07 When no one equated the Bible with money

14:38 Enough money in evangelical hands to fund the Great Commission

15:10 The three most important questions: Who owns it? How much is enough?

16:07 The finish line is contentment, not a number

17:21 John Steinbeck’s prophetic 1959 letter on American abundance

18:34 NBA salaries then vs. NFL today: A culture of more

19:16 The devastating realization that a billion dollars doesn’t satisfy

20:18 Contentment as a choice, not a calculation

21:50 The ATM church vs. the platform business

22:49 Surrender doesn’t mean sell: Stay in the fight

23:14 The heart surgeon in the million-dollar home

24:26 Reversing the question: What does God think?

25:50 The grocery CEO and the trailer park

27:11 The church has more resources than any generation in history

28:06 Satan’s strategy: Push you over the edge with abundance

29:08 Money, success, significance, security—why none of them deliver

30:37 Hard vs. impossible: Serving God and mammon

30:53 Succession planning: The firm is more important than the founder

31:19 Building in equity vesting from day one

32:20 Called into ministry with only 35% vested

33:22 Family succession and treating children uniquely

35:09 Do your giving while you’re living

36:04 Does it bother you that you’re not participating in the value?

37:15 NCF gave away $3.5 billion; Blue Trust clients gave $500 million

38:37 The boy with the loaves and fishes

38:56 Blue Trust’s counter-cultural growth: 17% compounded in 4 years

40:48 God’s math on a spreadsheet

41:31 The rise of faith-driven investing

43:26 From stewardship to a full Kingdom ecosystem

44:32 Flying in the face of worldly values

44:50 Where to start: Ask “Who owns it?”

46:12 Holding it with an open hand

47:21 God makes the waves—what a gift to ride them together

47:33 Closing encouragement from Justin

Stay Connected to the Movement

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Journey with 10-15 other Entrepreneurs through the
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What if your pastor thinks more like an entrepreneur than you realize? Dave Ferguson—co-founder of Community Christian Church and the New Thing Network, which helped plant 30,000 churches across 69 countries—joins Justin Forman to unpack the surprising parallels between church planters and entrepreneurs, and why their collaboration might be the most powerful force for community transformation available today.

Dave shares the leadership framework from his upcoming book Multiplier, including four daily gauges that keep leaders healthy over decades (RPMS: Relational, Physical, Mental, Spiritual) and four external practices drawn directly from how Jesus built his movement. You’ll also hear the remarkable story of a salesman who planted a church for kids with special needs—and why there are now 50 micro-expressions of church meeting inside Amazon’s headquarters.

Whether you’re a founder, a faith leader, or both, this episode will stretch your missional imagination and give you practical tools to multiply your impact for the long haul.

00:00 Opening: Pastors + entrepreneurs can solve the world’s greatest problems

00:55 Introducing Dave Ferguson and the New Thing Network

01:41 Starting a church on the back of a napkin

02:39 From one church to 30,000: The network model that changed everything

03:39 Defining “movement”—when does something tip?

05:38 The “chaortic” principle: vision, values, and controlled chaos

06:34 Leadership, control, and the maturation of a movement

07:01 Inflection points: The first church plant and the multiplication breakthrough

10:22 Reproducing networks—the backbone of movement

12:26 Church planters and entrepreneurs: Same wiring?

13:26 What entrepreneurs and church planters share

14:53 The darkness that keeps pastors and entrepreneurs apart

16:03 Breaking down the intimidation factor on both sides

17:47 FDE Church Partnership announcement

18:35 Barna data: When pastors and entrepreneurs come together

19:28 Justice Deposits: A pastor-entrepreneur collaboration that made history

20:45 Is the church waking up to the entrepreneurial opportunity?

21:47 The “how moment”—entrepreneurs as the bridge to every domain

23:02 Flipping the door: Pastors entering the entrepreneur’s world

23:40 Going wide AND deep: The four Rs framework

25:41 Inside Multiplier: Dave’s new book and its framework

27:08 FDE Foundation Groups announcement

27:55 Making frameworks sticky—and why it matters

29:23 The Multiplier framework: “It’s in you”

30:33 The drift problem—and why healthy leaders finish strong

32:40 RPMS: The four daily gauges every leader needs

34:16 Entrepreneurs love a great dashboard—this is yours

35:04 Building faith-driven entrepreneurship that doesn’t repeat history

37:45 Four external practices: Make disciple-makers

38:27 73% of Jesus’ time was with a few—what that means for your leadership

39:36 Leadership development over HR programs

40:52 Establishing spiritual communities and mobilizing new leaders

41:52 Launching church expressions—simpler than you think

42:41 50 micro-expressions of church inside Amazon

43:17 Mission-first community: The nuclear power source

44:41 Rick’s story: A salesman plants an all-abilities church

47:09 Missional imagination vs. checklist Christianity

47:53 Closing: Pastors and entrepreneurs bringing redemptive imagination together

Stay Connected to the Movement

Listen on your favorite podcast platform:

No Cost. No Catch. Online or In Person.
Journey with 10-15 other Entrepreneurs through the
8-week Study. Don’t Journey Alone. Find your Community.

Elizabeth Ntege’s story demonstrates what happens when Kingdom principles meet one of the world’s greatest challenges: unemployment. As Group CEO of NFT, she’s tackling joblessness across 12 African countries while refusing to compromise her values, even when it costs millions.

Listen as Elizabeth shares the brutal realities of job hunting in Africa, where corruption has become so normalized that people don’t even recognize it as wrong. From bribery to sexual exploitation, desperate job seekers face impossible choices. Yet Elizabeth’s company is creating hope through partnerships with MasterCard Foundation and innovative programs that build sustainable employment.

Discover how her Faith Driven Entrepreneur journey transformed her business from scarcity thinking to Kingdom abundance, leading to one of the most powerful examples of righteous risk-taking you’ll ever hear.

00:00 Introduction: Loving employees beyond paychecks

02:06 Kampala overview: Uganda’s capital and demographics

03:31 Elizabeth’s Faith Driven Entrepreneur connection story

05:24 NFT Group: Solving unemployment across 12 countries

08:35 The scale of unemployment: 6-to-1 dependency ratio

11:18 Why solving world problems isn’t just for others

13:23 MasterCard Foundation partnership: 40 million jobs

15:44 The reality of 500 applications per job

18:48 Corruption in job hunting: bribes and exploitation

21:54 The urgency of unemployment and desperation

25:07 80% Christians, high corruption: Sunday to Monday gap

28:50 Faith-driven transformation in business

34:00 Walking away from $2M Tanzania contract

38:51 Marriage and business: setting boundaries

41:38 God as co-founder and silent partner

47:59 Entrepreneurs as natural problem solvers

50:50 Leading groups: learning through every interaction

Stay Connected to the Movement

Listen on your favorite podcast platform:

No Cost. No Catch. Online or In Person.
Journey with 10-15 other Entrepreneurs through the
8-week Study. Don’t Journey Alone. Find your Community.