It’s strange how one number has become such a popular tool for defining our characteristics and even our identity. Today, we’re talking to someone who knows more about the enneagram than all three of your podcast hosts combined.

Ian Morgan Cron is the author of The Road Back to You and a master teacher of the Enneagram, an ancient personality typing system that identifies nine types of people and how they relate to one another and the world. 

The Enneagram is a powerful tool for understanding why we behave the way we do, and how our personalities are powerfully influenced by our motivations. It provides a framework for how we can begin to live into our most authentic selves, and also reveals the wisdom each personality type can offer to others. 

Listen in to learn how these numbers apply to your entrepreneurial journey?

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Ian Morgan Cron: Don’t wait until you have a crash. And you have no choice but to look inside.

Get to work now, be proactive and do your work now, because in corporate settings, settings, I have seen CEOs, you know, people in positions of importance, wait until something bad happens before they start to do work in a reflection.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome to everybody to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. I’ve been looking for this primarily because over the last year and I don’t know if this is a case for any of your guests or not. You know, I used to be three or four years ago, people would say, I’m Henry, I’m a North Carolina basketball fan, or I’m William and I’m an Alabama football fan. And now increasingly seems like, hi, I’m Doug and I’m in any gramme three. And I’m like, what is Enneagram, what sport do they play? Who are they? What’s going on? And, you know, a lot of people just go ahead and they’ll research it. But we’re in a great spot where we can not only do that, but actually ask the guy that’s at the center of it all to show up to our podcast and he’ll do it. And so we have Ian Morgan Cron with us. Ian, welcome to the program.

Ian Morgan Cron: Well, thank you. It’s a delight to be here.

Henry Kaestner: So we want to get on to the Enneagram, of course. But one of the things we do in all of our podcasts is get to know a little bit about the person that we’re talking to and your history and your background. So where did you get started? Who are you where do you come from and what brought you through to the Enneagram?

Ian Morgan Cron: Well, I was born and raised in Greenwich, Connecticut, about thirty five miles from midtown Manhattan. Just a great town. Yeah, it is a good town.

I went to Bowdoin College up in Maine where I majored in English literature and romance languages, which was a very highfalutin way of saying Spanish and then came out, worked in ministry for a bunch of years, became a licensed therapist, went to grad school for that. Then I went to grad school again to get a master’s in divinity. I have a wonderful portfolio life. I’m an Episcopal priest. I’m a songwriter. I’m an author. I’m a speaker. I’m a spiritual director. And so just depending on the day, you know, I always have one of those silos that I’m in or some combination thereof. So I don’t have one occupation. I have multiples.

Henry Kaestner: Do you ever write songs in Spanish?

Ian Morgan Cron: No, I’ve got three teenage boys and we’re just debating the utility of going to school and attending classes. And I’d like to think I won the argument because I can hear them, all three of them being in class right now. And they said, I don’t know that what we’re learning right now is going to be applicable. And I want to go back and say I just was on the phone with a guy who majored in Spanish. And it has everything to do with what he does right now. And as it turns out, it probably doesn’t matter. That’s a lot of things. Before we get recording, you talked about your friendship with Matt Maher. So you’re in Nashville, you’re writing songs and writing stories about people. And it sounds like all these things have something together, and that is that you are a student of human nature in the human story and weave them all together. The Enneagram brings that into this as well. It helps people understand who they are, what their story is. It helps people to relate to others as well. Tell us what the Enneagram is and maybe just give a flyover the numbers and and what’s it all mean? Some number of people listeners podcast will not have heard about it yet, and it’s probably out of the thousands to listen to. It’s probably the seven people that haven’t heard of the Enneagram. But what is the Enneagram for those seven people?

Ian Morgan Cron: Right. Well, the anagram is an ancient personality typing system that teaches that there are nine basic personality styles in the world, one of which we all gravitate toward and adopt in childhood is a way to cope and feel safe in the world. And very importantly, each of those types has an unconscious motivation that powerfully influences how that type acts, thinks and feels on a moment to moment basis in the course of a given day in order to go through the numbers. What I’m going to do is tell you the name that’s associated with that type and then just what the unconscious motivation is that is driving their behaviors. And because time is with the Enneagram, we say that it’s not what you do, it’s why you do it that matters. And because the truth of the matter is, if I just described the traits of all nine types, you would identify with all nine types because you contain all nine types. You just happen to be dominant in one of those nine types. So it’s really what determines your type is the unconscious motivation. So are you ready? Because this is a fast fly over of nine types. So ones are called the improvers. These people have a need to perfect others, the world themselves and the things that they do in life. Twos are called the helpers. They have a need to meet the needs of others while at the same time denying or disowning their own personal needs. Threes are called the achievers or the performers. They have a need to succeed, to appear successful and to avoid failure at all costs. Fours are called the romantics. Sometimes they’re called the individualists, disproportionately represented in people who work in the creative arts. They have a need to feel or to be special and unique as a way of compensating for what they perceive is something that’s missing in their essential makeup. Fives are called. The investigators sometimes are called the observers. These are people who have a need to know and understand everything. And their strategy for doing that is by gathering and collecting and sometimes even hoarding vast amounts of knowledge and information, often about niche subjects. Six is called the loyalists. The loyalists have a need to feel secure and safe and supported in what feels to them like a very unpredictable and chaotic world. Sevens are called the enthusiasts. They’re the joy bombs of the Enneagram. They have a need to avoid painful feelings. And we call affective states. You know, they’re trying to avoid feelings like stuck or boredom or sadness or disappointment. So they have a limited range of emotion. And their strategy for avoiding feelings is by imagining a future filled with unlimited possibilities, adventures, escapades, fun. So there a fascinating type. Eights are called the challengers. Challengers have a need to assert strength and control over the environment and others, in order to mask feelings of vulnerability and weakness inside themselves and nines are called the peacemakers, sometimes the sweethearts of the Enneagram. They have a need to avoid conflict at all costs, to maintain connection, the status quo, and to merge with the agenda of an individual or of a group.

So that’s a fast fly by the unconscious motivations of the nine types of the enemy.

Rusty Rueff: Wow. So, you know, I’ve got a question because I came out of the human capital world for a lot of years, and it’s interesting how certain personality assessments are inventories sort of end up being for certain industries. And there are a few that kind of cross across. But you really hit a chord being a songwriter. I had to throw that in there to you. You really hit a chord in the faith world because, you know, it’s become common language now across churches, ministries, Para-Ministries. Talk to us about how that happened.

Ian Morgan Cron: You know, I wish I could I think that people just in general have a fundamental desire to understand why they do the things they do and why they you know, it’s just right out of Romans. Right. They want to know why they do the things they do and don’t do the things they want to do. I mean, they’re just trying to figure themselves out. I mean, if you think of that, the greatest mystery after God that you have to face every day is yourself, who you are and why you do the things that you do.

Why is it that if you look in the rearview mirror of your life, you see repetitions, behaviors that have always led to the same negative outcome and you just can’t figure it out, you know? And so I think we’re in a season where, for whatever reason, that’s captured the attention of the public. And that plus a little luck has made the book a success for which I’m very grateful. And it’s been a wonderful surprise.

Interestingly, most of my work is in the corporate world, not in the faith based world, which has been another great piece of the adventure of the last couple of years.

Rusty Rueff: That’s great. So talk to our faith driven entrepreneurs like when is the best time to take an assessment? Is it you know, at the moment of I’m really trying to figure myself out because I’ve reached some kind of situation that I’m being encouraged to do. So is it to do it as a strengthening going forward? I think I know where your answer is going to go, but is there an ideal time?

Ian Morgan Cron: Well, I mean, listen, I’m a big believer in self-knowledge, and I think the more you know about yourself, the better off you’ll be and the better off everyone around you is going to be. We all know that people who lack self-knowledge do really dumb things.

I mean, this is the fact that you gave us some examples. I’m not sure if I believe that. OK, yeah, I can definitely give you some examples. Like they married the wrong people.

They find themselves in locations they shouldn’t be in, they bang guardrail to guardrail through people’s lives, unaware of the way that their personality is affecting other people. So, I mean, self-knowledge, you know, as Aristotle said, is the beginning of all wisdom, you know. So I would say don’t wait until you have a crash.

And you have no choice but to look inside.

Get to work now, be proactive and do your work now, because in corporate settings, settings, I have seen CEOs, you know, people in positions of importance, wait until something bad happens before they start to do work in a reflection and change.

Rusty Rueff: It goes back to that. We’re all invited to change. We have either invitation or situation. Right. We’re invited every day. But sometimes it’s the situation that drives us to that change. I want to go back to a little bit of the technical aspect, again, that Henry started with. And you took us through the different types. I’ve heard people talk about some of their numbers have wings. Can you give us a little bit of enlightenment on what’s a wing?

Ian Morgan Cron: Sure. So everybody has a core type and only one core type, right.

So according to the Enneagram, you have a type for life, OK? Your core type won’t change. So if you were looking at the Enneagram diagram, think of it as a circle, you have two numbers adjacent to your own right. So I’m an Enneagram for so I can either have a three wing or a five wing. OK, so it’s the numbers on either side of mine. If you were a nine, you would have either a one wing or an eight wing. OK, because of the way that the Enneagram is set up, what the wings do, wings season or flavor or give their juice to your core typewrite. So I’m a four with a very strong three wing, which means that’s the achiever.

The three is the individualist or the romantic. Now what that means is like salt and pepper. My three wing gives me a lot of the ambition, the drive, the focus, the desire to succeed that the three has. But I’m just picking up some of the traits, both positive and negative of that wing. That said, I also teach people that if you ever see a bird flying with one wing, you know that it can only fly in circles. So we really have two wings, I think one that’s dominant and one that’s less dominant. So the numbers than either side of your wings, one just tends to be more dominant than the other. It can be a very heavy wing in my case. My three wing was so heavy that it was hard to determine whether I was a three or four, which is why. Those unconscious motivations are so important and determining which of those you identify with most, because that’s what determines your type.

Rusty Rueff: So many times we have counseled entrepreneurs that, you know, trying to go it alone is not the best idea. Right. Having a co-founder, having somebody on your wing, if you will. How does one know as they go into a relationship with a potential co-founder or a partner that we’re going to get along or we’re not going to get along if we send both of them off to be assessed? Is it obvious or is it still intuitive?

Ian Morgan Cron: Well, it really depends on the degree of their self-awareness, it’s interesting Cornell University did a study in concert with green partners and in it they did a deep dive into the lives of seventy two high performing CEOs of companies ranging in value from, let’s say, 50 million to five billion dollars.

And what they were trying to determine was what quality was it that accounted for their success? And they thought it was going to be grit, determination, strategic planning, charisma. And what they discovered really upended their expectations. And here’s the exact quote from the study. The key predictor of success among leaders and executives is self-awareness. So.

What I would say is two people can work together to the degree that they’re self-aware, right. In other words, if you have two very self-aware people of different types, they can work great together. If you have one that is not self aware, one to do is you’re going to have a lot more conflict and a lot more problems.

Any two types, as long as they’re healthy and self-aware, can be great compliments to each other and of course, it’s a little industry dependent, you know, but I’ve seen all types work well with each other to the degree that they have self-knowledge and self-awareness.

William Norvell: A and William here, faithful Two what I think a heavy one wing. Maybe I’m still right. I’m still working through that. I got some issues with pleasing people, though, as I’m sure everyone in this podcast can attest to, when I’m two minutes late for a meeting and it looks like I’m going to die because I don’t like letting people down. I’ve gotten some nice car wrecks trying to not let people down when it didn’t even matter at all. But and we love you. We love you unconditionally. I want you to hear that from me. If you knew how often I had to hear that, I appreciate it. What if I to help him out? I yeah. You shouldn’t be like this, William. I’m working on it. I’m working on it. One of my best friends. No joke. Henry will respond, you know. And Matthew right now will respond. When I can’t be somewhere he’ll respond. It’s ok. I love you. You can be five minutes late but not six. No, no, no. I mean, let’s not get crazy here, right? He wants me on time, but I need that kind of reinforcement and it’s that ingrained. And I haven’t. I’m at the point the immigrant help me think through again. I know it’s a problem, but I still can’t just, like, reverse it right now. You can’t just let it go. Right. And so I’m interested, as you know, our audience, a lot of entrepreneurs.

Right. I mean, I can’t imagine a better thing than self knowledge as you are leading people either by yourself or with a group. You’re raising money. I mean, you are out there, right? I mean, you are on your own and a lot of decision making. You have to make a lot of things work. And that’s difficult in and of itself. I would imagine it’s even more difficult if you don’t understand who you are. But as you would counsel, it sounds like you do a lot of corporate work.

If you think about someone listening to this podcast, what action steps to make it a little practical for them, would you suggest? I imagine one would be figuring out who you are, maybe. But after that, even, you know, just how would you start to weave this in or start changing? You know, first of all, just knowing and understanding who you are, but actually through the Enneagram as well.

Ian Morgan Cron: Yeah, well, first of all, at the risk of sounding overly self promotional, I really do recommend my book, The Road Back to You. And the reason I say that is because it’s the only primmer on the market. There’s a lot of wonderful Enneagram books, but many of them are five hundred pages and they can be very technical and dry. And mine was really designed to be. Accessible, applicable to two hundred pages, a little entertaining, and you would get enough out of just reading it to move the needle in a positive direction in your life or go down the wormhole and read all these other books on the Enneagram. But you know that in my IQ nine assessment, which I think is the best one on the market, which people can get on my website in terms of application, let me just tell you the story.

I worked with a guy. He was a three, was an achiever, and he owned a very, very successful hedge fund, you know, 30 or 40 billion dollars and managed money. And he was trying to get some business from the largest family foundation in the country, and he kept meeting with this guy who was an eight challenger. OK, now, if you know anything about the eights, you know, eights are blunt, notoriously blunt, aggressive, domineering, controlling, and they can start an argument in an empty house, you know, like they actually find conflict useful to try and vet or figure out if somebody has a hidden agenda or motive, ulterior motive. So he’s gone out three or four times to see this guy and every single time the guy and he end up in, it’s just I don’t he’s looking at the figures and all the papers.

I don’t know if you guys know this and he’s sort of arguing with them. And I said, it sounds to me like this guy’s an eight on the Enneagram. And when he looked it up, he said, oh, yeah, totally. You know, this is who this guy is. And I said, so how have you been dealing in this relationship with them?

So I said, well, he says whenever he powers up, I just try to be diplomatic.

And now this is a guy that went to Williams.

Then he went to Harvard Business School. I mean, it’s a very, very smart guy.

And I said, that is not what you should be doing. I said, what you should be doing is you need to go toe to toe with this guy. And if he starts to be his chest beating your chest, you know, but don’t escalate. Right. Because if he goes to nine and you go to 11, he’s going to go to 18. So just let them know that you can meet his energy. Right. And he went out there for the fifth time to meet with this guy. And he did exactly what I said. And it was he said it was fascinating. This guy said I and my friend said, look, man, this is my fifth time here. Here’s the deal. You know, it just really kind of got up just a little bit, this girl.

And as he did, the guy just sort of set back in his chair like this and smiled and ended up doing a lot of business with my friend. But he had to know that this guy was trustworthy. And for an eight conflict is connection, intimidation is intimacy.

And so he’s just trying to connect and my friends just trying to be diplomatic. And I said, man, you got to meet him where he lives or you are never going to get this business.

So, you know, in the corporate world, knowing the unconscious motivation of different types, not just their traits, but what it is underneath the waterline of consciousness that’s driving them is incredibly important and useful. Right. Same thing can happen inside of a company. I worked with a company where the founder CEO was a seven: enthusiast’s. Enthusiasts are often entrepreneurs. I’d say it’s probably the number on the Enneagram where you find the most entrepreneurs. And he was smart enough to get a six to be his CFO, now sixes have a need to be safe, secure and supportive. And their worst case scenario, thinkers and sevens, are sunny optimists. So what he did was hire a guy who could always tap the brakes on that seven’s enthusiasm and prevent him from driving a company off a cliff because of impulsive decision making. So it just has so many wonderful ways of giving people insight into each other that would normally take years to get.

You know, just by hanging out with each other, it could take years to get. So anyway, that was a long answer to a question I’ve now long forgotten.

But I hope it was helpful. It was very helpful. We love practical examples that are so good. This may be a little off script, but as I hear you talk, I want to ask a question.

So, you know, Rusty is 87 times the human capital expert. I am, but I love I love profiling tests and personality test is kind of learning about people. And we administer a different one without fail. Also, not to talk about PDP, just kind of it’s a common language for us. Right. And we’ve been using it. I’m interested in your assessment of the Enneagram next to a Myers Briggs or a PDP or a DISC. I mean, this is becoming popular not just the Enneagram, but the self-knowledge concept. Do you think there’s significant advantages or is that, hey, you really pick one and just bring a common language or just walk us through how you see the differences and maybe the pros and cons or however you want to take that question?

Yeah. So I’m in favor of any instrument, any psychometric that helps people develop self-knowledge. Right. So I’m in favor of them all. And all of those have different advantages. The Hogan PDP, Myers, Briggs, although I must say in grad school I studied Myers, Briggs, and to this day I still don’t know what it is, though. That’s what I am. That seems to take three days of intense work followed up by, you know, I’m not sure what it seems to be a little bit of a mystery. I think what makes the Enneagram interesting, Number one is again, it talks about the unconscious motivations of these types. Right. It also takes into account the fact that the human personality is fluid and dynamic.

It’s not static.

That’s part of the problem I have with other tests sometimes is it sort of pinpoints you and puts you in a box. Right. And we like to say in the enneagram world, we’re not going to try and put you in a box, going to tell you about the box you’re already and how to get out of it. So I think the Enneagram recognizes that in the course of the day, your personality is changing its form all the time to adapt to different situations.

If the five of us right now were in Syria in a battle situation, our personalities would be very, very different than they are in this moment. And the Enneagram actually helps us understand how each type reacts when they’re under stress, when they’re in a place where they feel safe and secure. It helps us understand just the dynamism of human personality and whatever. By the way, we’re talking about personality. We’re talking about probabilities, not predictions. Right. You could say in this situation, a five investigator probably will react this way, but there’s no guarantee. I mean, people surprise us all the time, you know, with their behavior.

But knowing probabilities is better than not having any idea at all. Right? I mean, it seems to me that what makes Phantogram very helpful is it gives you a low resolution picture of the interior world of another human being, like what it’s like to be inside their shoes. And it does it in a very efficient, accessible way. And you can begin to apply it immediately. And to me, that’s kind of a little bit of the magic of it, among other things.

William Norvell: Yeah. Now that’s really good. OK, I’m going to flip to the other side now as we’re getting towards the close. I have seen some push back one famous person that I asked to take this not famous but famous to us friend of ours said, if I’m a number, I’m the highest, hope that solves your test and actually probably tells me what is not. Well, we’re gonna talk about that later. Not my question, but I would love to know that, feel free to answer that.

But also, there are skeptics, rather skeptics to everything, something I’ve experienced a little bit, actually more in the evangelical faith community. And of one here is a little bit of I’m not so much asking to understand you better. I’m asking so I can put you in that box and kind of weaponize it a little bit. I’ve heard comments such as, you know, well, you just can’t understand me because you’re an X, right? You’re just never going to see it the way I do because you’re an X or have you seen that as you hear someone who kind of maybe has been scarred by a Myers Briggs or even this specific test, how would you counsel them that this is still kind of a very worthy endeavor?

Ian Morgan Cron: Yeah, you know, I actually when I’m doing corporate presentations, I have a whole section on Enneagram ethics.

And one of the things I tell people is, you know, you’re going to be given a lot of insight into different human personalities today and you cannot use that information as a weapon, a way to exploit other people, I tell them that they can’t use their own number as an excuse for continuing poor behavior, right? Oh, I’m an eight, so get over it. But I’m so blunt, you know?

And I said, look, the purpose of the Enneagram is for you to do your own work. It’s not for you to do somebody else’s work. Don’t try to type. Other people don’t talk about the Enneagram around people that don’t know about it. I mean, there’s some common sense things that you should do. It’s unfortunate when people don’t use it responsibly or, you know, when they use it mindlessly. And it always saddens me when that happens, which is why I do place such an emphasis early on in training that, look, this thing, if you use it incorrectly, it causes more problems than it solves.

William Norvell: That’s really good. Yeah, that’s a really good articulation because you have seen that. OK, so now to the major question, so we can pass this on to our friend. What do you think our friend is who refuses to let us test him?

Ian Morgan Cron: Well, it’s actually the fact that he said that he’s the best.

William Norvell: No. See, I love that you’re picking up on the subtleness.

Ian Morgan Cron: Yeah, these are three, seven or eight, I bet.

William Norvell: OK, OK, we’re going to work on that. And just for fun, then we can edit this out because you may think this is a horrible exercise, but you’ve known Henry and Rusty now for the better part of at least forty five minutes. If you had to guess where would you go.

Ian Morgan Cron: Oh, man, you can’t really do that on the basis of policy. The problem is, is that I can look at their clothes, their appearance and make a guess, let’s say, well, I but I can’t see their own conscious motivation. And actually, people can appear in all forms. Right. It’s not like it’s magic. You know, I’ll make a guess. Who are you asking about here? Because we have five.

William Norvell: We’ll go. We’ll go. Henry and Rusty. But feel free to throw in just in our silent leader.

Ian Morgan Cron: Yeah. So maybe this something about him. I mean, if you want to make a guess, I’d say Henry was a three and Rusty was a five.

Yeah, of course.

Well, I should have written down when you went through before, but I remember three was very good looking, very smart. Personable. Yes. And most likely to succeed in life. But I can’t remember all the ones who are overly humble, too.

Rusty Rueff: I remember that that was part of it.

William Norvell: Lots of humility. Just just dripping with humility. Those three. Exactly.

Ian Morgan Cron: Yeah. And William I’ve said you might be a two, but if I were you, I’d look at nine to.

William Norvell: Oh, goodness. OK, Goshi, see when you bring experts on, they just blow up your whole world.

Ian Morgan Cron: Well, another to the nines are the most mistype numbers on the anagram. They get confused an awful lot. But when you were talking to me about being late, this stuff, to me, the one thing would be less likely to do that than a nine to one.

William Norvell: Interesting. OK, I’m going back to the drawing board after this because Henry knows. Well, I get Henry got one of those texts for me about three hours ago so he can empathize. Wow, this is awesome.

Ian Morgan Cron: Also, by the way, I’m looking at the condition of your bed behind you right now, and that’s a little bit more nice than a two with a one way remote remote workforce kills you again.

William Norvell: And this has been such a fun journey down the anagram. And since you’re an Episcopal priest as well, a man, one day I’m going to get to say things like, you know, in a former life I was an equestrian or something like that. But you were a songwriter. You’re an Episcopal priest.

I’m just you know, I kind of you were about to say I was an Episcopal priest, and that was.

No, no, I was not going there.

One of the things we love to do, it’s just fascinating to us to see how the Holy Spirit moves through our guest and through our audience, through the word of God. It’s living and breathing. And I know you believe that along with us. And we would love to know where God has you these days. It could be today. It could be in this divine moment that God may have given you a scripture on your heart or in the season of life that you find yourself in to share with our audience of where God’s words come alive to you.

Ian Morgan Cron: Yeah, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is, gosh, so many things. One of them would be where I’m doing a new thing, that God is doing a new thing in my life and I think in the world know the last three years, four years, three years since the road back to you came out, my whole life completely changed.

Like I feel like at my age, you know, most people are thinking, you know, I can’t wait to, you know, move to St. John’s and play golf for the rest of my life.

And I have like a reset where it’s like I’m doing something completely new with my life and I find that to be such a gift.

We’re just doing a new thing every day, and I’ll tell you, it’s a great joy to be able to get up in the morning and realize that you can make a good living.

And help people and answer interesting questions and get paid for it. I mean, Deusen, that’s a pretty good life, so I feel a tremendous amount of gratitude for it.

Henry Kaestner: Well, we’re grateful for the time you spent with us. This has been super cool. And I’ve now just got all Guiterrez on the site. And I realized that I’m the same personality type as Lance Armstrong and Bernie Madoff. So I’m trying to figure out if I need to get some professional help or what I need to do.

Ian Morgan Cron: No, no, don’t look at those sites because they can’t see the unconscious motivations of those people either. And number two, Bernie Madoff is a psychopath. And so the problem is that doesn’t make me feel better. No, no, no, no. So you actually get the Enneagram is for garden variety neurotics. It can’t deal with people who have legitimate pathologies. You know what I’m saying?

Henry Kaestner: You know, I feel good about being a garden variety neurotic and making. I think you should. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian Morgan Cron: I think that’s a it’s a good bar to run for.

Henry Kaestner: Well, I must share this with a lot of people I know. I’m definitely gonna share it with my wife who went to Williams, who’s always trying to tell people that Williams College is a legitimate place. Most people out here have never heard of it before. A person like you to have mentioned that is a very good institution now gives legitimacy to this whole podcasting we’re doing.

Ian Morgan Cron: Yeah, but I would remind remind your wife, though, that Bowden is a superior institution and that even though you always beat us in football, we still are a superior institution.

Henry Kaestner: I should be pleased with that. I may or may not bring in that. Part of the whole thing is great being with you. Thank you for thank you for your time. Thank you for your life’s work. Supercool, man. We’ll all be continue to be in a spot where we get paid to do what we love.

— by Henry Kaestner

Faith driven entrepreneurs are an integral and critical piece of how God is working in the world. A clearer examination of the importance of faith driven entrepreneurship and the “marks” of a successful faith driven entrepreneur are critical as we look to encourage and invest in these culture-makers that God is using to renew and restore all things. A faith driven entrepreneur is an active participant in the bringing about of God’s Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven.  

Transformation happens in the marketplace. It happens when we can love on our partners, vendors, customers and employees in such a way that points to a God who loves us, who gave the ultimate sacrifice for us, and who we might know, love and serve bringing joy to ourselves and others. Faith driven entrepreneurs are the co-authors of this transformation.

Grasping the importance of faith driven entrepreneurship is important everywhere, both in the the West as we see new entrepreneurial pursuits like Facebook redefine community for better or worse, but especially in emerging markets where rates of self-employment are often high and culture-making is of special significance. Creating a Godly vision for entrepreneurship can raise up a new generation of culture-makers in the marketplace in places like India where more traditional and inflexible beliefs on Christian vocation exist (e.g. a Christ-follower should go into the ministry or the academy).

Before we go into an overview of the five marks of a faith driven entrepreneur, it’s important to set a foundation. What is the mission of a faith driven entrepreneur? What is it that we do? How does what we do fit in to the larger work that God is doing in the world? Why is it important in God’s economy? Why should we examine this force at the Christian Economic Forum?

We come to understand the importance of a faith driven entrepreneurs when we examine the concepts of Imago Dei, Missio Dei and the Creation Mandate.

Imago Dei: We were created in the image of a God who:

• worked six days a week

• whose work was beautiful 

• and whose work continues to this day (John 5:17)

• we can do great things as a part of the body of Christ, and apart from Him we can do nothing of value (John 15:5)

Missio Dei: 

• Being used by God to bring about His Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven for His glory  

• Being God’s agent in working toward the restoration and redemption of all things

The Creation Mandate: 

• Be fruitful and multiply

• Take dominion over all

As faith driven entrepreneurs, we have:

• A high calling: As Christ-followers we have a special opportunity to be used by God to bring about His Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven, and,

• A different motive: From a radically transformed heart, and out of gratitude for the gift of life given us, now and eternal, we seek to bring all that we are – our gifting, our talents, our expertise – to the altar as our meaningful form of worship because we are grateful for the gift of life given us…now and eternal.

The Five Marks:

1. Identity: Who(se) the entrepreneur is. Responding with joy to the gift of life given us. Is our identity as a successful business owner? A leader of a company that is growing fast? One that closed a big funding round or was featured in a newspaper? Or, is our primary identity as a beloved child of God, unable to earn our salvation regardless of entrepreneurial success or financial gain?

2. Excellence: It’s to the degree that we do our work well that we have an opportunity to witness and be heard (Francis Schaeffer). The rest of the world, both secular and Christ-following, expects that we will be second rate. Acknowledge the headwinds created by  business owners who have used a “fish sign” to compensate for shoddy work….and push through it doing great work for the King as He uses us to bring about His Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven.

3. Stewardship vs. Ownership: Understanding the benefits and challenges that come from financial success. Think of the story of the five loaves and two fish. God can make something out of nothing, so he doesn’t need my money. He just wants my heart. And too often money has a grip on my heart, so giving is a way for me to worship Him with all of my heart. Why do we give? Is it because we are grateful for the gift of life given us or something a bit more transactional?

4. Ministry in Deed: Loving our partners, vendors, customers, employees, and communities in a way that goes beyond expectations. Ministry in deed might also mean creating a product or service that is in itself redemptive or restorative looking to solve for a market deficiency. I think about the way that Grab looks to provide safety in transportation across all of Southeast Asia for instance. Ministry in deed also can mean loving on our communities in a way that is different than the rest of businesses in an industry. Example: CloudFactory’s 1,000 CSR projects in the year preceding the 2015 earthquake in Nepal.

5. Ministry in Word: With the preceding four marks in place, we have an excellent opportunity to introduce the Gospel and the reason for the Hope that we have to those in our companies and markets. Some examples include:

• The leader sharing their story including how God has worked in their lives.

• Being ready to pray with someone, in Jesus’ name, who is in crisis.

• Incorporating chaplaincy. A 24/7 resource available from a ministry professional who can be on standby for spiritual crises brought on about by sickness, death or other stresses.

Some other considerations for a faith driven entrepreneur include:

The Importance of the Spiritual Disciplines:

Practicing prayer, fasting and time in God’s Word regularly, if not daily.

“The most amazing force in the world is compound interest.” – Albert Einstein

The Importance of Being in Community:

Entrepreneurship can be a very lonely journey as evidenced by the much higher rates of mental illness from entrepreneurs (see FDE podcast with Max Anderson). 

Lessons from the Good Kings of Judah:

Asa, Jehoshaphat, Uzziah, Hezekiah…we need to seek God and His will 100% of the time, not just 90% as they did. It is nearly impossible to do that without being in community.

A Right View of the Role of the Entrepreneur’s Financial Success:

If Jesus could take five loaves and two fish and feed 5,000, then He doesn’t need our financial success to bankroll the work that He is doing. He wants our hearts.

Practical Notes on Generosity:

Establish a financial finish line well in advance of financial success and then share with others so as to make it more accountable. Be ready to answer the question “Why do you give?” Is it out of gratitude for the gift given us first, and then a desire to bring all that we are to the altar as our meaningful worship second?

Willfulness vs. Faithfulness

An entrepreneur needs to be on guard about being willful vs. faithful. Example: the leaders of Bandwidth willfully looking to raise money rather than seeking God’s plan. Examples from Scripture: Saul not waiting on Samuel as opposed to Gideon waiting on God. One can be willful in activity as well as passivity. Think also of David staying behind when kings went off to war. 

Or, as Chip Ingram describes the paradigm, “striving vs contending”:

In essence, all of God’s work is going to be done in a hostile environment where the enemy seeks to thwart Kingdom advancement. Therefore, it requires energy and focus and faith to move forward. But there’s a difference between “contending” for the faith (what God has directed you to do), and “striving.” Contending means “I bring all that I am in obedience to the Lord Jesus but the outcomes are His” – it’s a position of dependency and entrusting the results, and timing, and funding etc. to Him. “Striving“  is characterized by an internal pressure that “I have to make this happen” in my energy, in the timeline I believe is necessary and, in many cases, by the means that I think is best. Contending is accompanied by peace and dependency; striving is accompanied by anxiety and pressure. 

For more information, I invite you to check out the Faith Driven Entrepreneur website (www.faithdrivenentrepreneur.org), where you’ll find out a more fleshed out look at the five marks along with a daily blog, a weekly podcast, a monthly newsletter and more that seek to equip and empower the faith driven entrepreneur

A diagram that lays it all out (thanks Jake Thomsen, partner at Sovereign’s Capital):

Recent articles

——

[ ]

— by FDI Team

To say we’re living in tumultuous times is an understatement. It often feels as though the ground on which society is built is constantly shifting beneath our feet. And despite low levels of trust in institutions, The Wall Street Journal recently shared that people have more faith in business than government or media, and almost 3/4 of people said their employer was a “mainstay of trust”. This presents a significant opportunity for faith-driven business leaders to continue (or start) consciously using their influence among their employees for God’s glory.

This matters for you, the Faith Driven Entrepreneur. There’s never been a more crucial time to stand in your shoes. People are looking to you to lead. Your employees are putting their hope in you. Society is asking you to step up. But before we get too far ahead of ourselves, let’s remember that there’s only one person who we can truly put all our hope in. The opportunity you have right now is to point people to Him.

Uncertainty abounds around the economy and the seismic political shift we’re watching occur. We’re all desperate for something certain, for something concrete to hold onto. And right now, it appears God has allowed businesses to retain more credibility than other institutions. But before we celebrate the spotlight this shines on the many incredible men and women doing God’s work in and through their business, we have to remember that the answer we have isn’t ourselves or our businesses. The answer people need—not just in America, but around the world—is that Jesus Christ is the answer they’re looking for.

His death, resurrection, and imminent return are the reason we can have hope. Yes, businesses are great, but even that is temporary. Faith Driven Entrepreneur, seize this moment. Recognize the fact that people are looking to you, now more than ever. Continue to run your business with excellence, loving God and neighbor through your company. Then pray that you would be able to point them to the King of a kingdom that cannot be shaken (Hebrews 12:28).

Related articles

——

[ Photo by Bram Naus on Unsplash ]

— by Amanda Lawson

Before David ever met Goliath, he had a reputation…for being a harpist. It’s a beautiful skill, developed by consistent practice, but not overly powerful or commanding, and certainly not the typical hobby of a mighty warrior. Nevertheless, there is much to learn from the harp-playing shepherd-phase of David’s life. 

When Samuel arrived at Jesse’s house to anoint one of his sons to be the future king, David was out in the field tending sheep. The youngest of seven brothers, the ruddy, handsome, lion-fighting harpist was not the typical front-runner for kingship. But we know the story, God doesn’t judge as man does; He looks at the heart, and David goes on to receive Samuel’s anointing. 

But he doesn’t rush off to the palace to assume the highest position, he stays at his father’s house and continues to tend sheep. 

Meanwhile, King Saul was struck with fits of rage and his attendants didn’t know what to do. One suggested finding a musician to play, hoping that the music would calm Saul’s torment. Taking the suggestion, another mentioned knowing of a young shepherd boy from Bethlehem who knew how to play the harp. 

One of the young men answered, “Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skillful in playing, a man of valor, a man of war, prudent in speech, and a man of good presence, and the Lord is with him.” (1 Samuel 16:18)

The harp. His musical ability is what initially brought the future king to the palace. In addition, his willingness to serve bravely and his closeness to the Lord made him a perfect candidate to serve in the king’s court. It is only after that that David impresses the king and the rest of the nation by defeating Goliath, overtaking thousands of Philistines, and rising to be the prolific king after God’s own heart. 

It amazes me that after being anointed to be the next king by the prophetic judge Samuel, David simply went back to the life he knew and waited for the right timing. He didn’t write to Samuel anxiously awaiting the day Samuel would forcibly remove Saul from the throne; he didn’t run to the palace and bust the door down to take what was his. He knew the anointing he carried and trusted that it would come to fruition in God’s timing. All he had to do was be faithful to what was in front of him. 

So he tended sheep, he came to play the harp for the king, and when the time came, he stepped into battle. Where Saul’s fatal flaw was pride, David humbly served and exuded confidence in the promise of the Lord rather than his own ability. 

It seems as though we should be more like David in our professional endeavors—trusting what we have been given and serving faithfully as we wait on the Lord’s timing. Rather than forcing our way in, rushing into ventures that may be “right” but in the wrong timing, what if we were willing to develop the skills we have in the opportunities we’ve been given, trusting that what the Lord says He will do, He will do—whether it is in our timing or not. 

So maybe you are headed toward starting the next unicorn company, but right now the Lord has you tending the flock. Maybe you’re called to serve the boss that’s got a temper, and while you know you’re next in line for his job, you honor his leadership in the waiting. The question is, do you trust the Lord’s timing and are you willing to faithfully steward your present reality while you wait for where He might be taking you.  

It seems that the way we serve matters at every level of our work. Being faithful in the humble stages, diligent in the waiting, and trusting in the Lord’s timing just may lead to the opportunity you’ve been longing for. But even if it doesn’t, if you never make it to the CEO’s office or break records with your P&L, working faithfully, humbly, and diligently will always honor the Lord and bring glory to the One who deserves it all anyway. 

Recent articles

——

[ Photo by Biegun Wschodni on Unsplash ]

— by Bobby Albert

For many years as an entrepreneur, my hiring practice was to just look at the interviewee’s resume, e.g., education, work history and accomplishments. I would ask a lot of “what” questions and focus on the “things” and results listed on their resume.  Then I would hire the person based on our competency-focused interview. All was good until later, I often needed to fire them because of personal character issues, which created higher personnel turnover.  But why?

Well, it was not until I did a self-awareness evaluation and asked the question “why” multiple times that I discovered the root cause – my failure to uncover the character, or the heart condition, of the person I was hiring.

When I look back over my life, I found in school, at college, and even when I attended industry training on hiring, they all modeled, focused, and tested you on your level of competence – knowledge.  

The church was the only place I ever heard about the condition of my heart. The Bible explains the sinful nature of my heart and that I need by faith to believe in Jesus Christ to change the condition of my heart and become a new creature with a new nature.

Finally, after many years of failing with my hiring, I asked Jim Lundy, who mentored me for over 20 years, to do the interviewing of people while I looked on as he focused on the character of the person – the condition of their heart.

As I looked on, typically, the potential hire would bring their resume and give one to each of us.  Then I noticed Jim would just lay the resume down next to his chair, and he never looked at it again. I initially thought, WOW, this interview is going to be interesting.

After the initial relationship-building introduction and discussion, Jim would proceed to ask the potential hire, in a very disarming way, high quality discovery questions and just listen.  He would… 

• Ask about where they grew up.

• Ask who was their favorite teacher or coach in elementary school, and then, he would ask “why” they were his/her favorite.

• Ask who was their least favorite teacher or coach in elementary school, and then, he would ask “why” they were his/her least favorite. 

• Follow this path through middle school, high school, and college. 

• Ask what they did after college, and then…

• Follow up about their past bosses and current boss.

• Ask follow-up questions about “how” did these teachers, coaches, and bosses impacted their life.

• Ask about past decisions in the workplace and follow up with “how” did he or she make that decision, and “how” did that decision impact the people and organization.

•  Ask if there were anything else that we should know.

When Jim finished asking questions and listening, he thanked the potential hire, and they would leave feeling really good about the interview. Frequently, they would comment that this was the best interview they had gone through.

Every leader can minimize mistakes in hiring by understanding the following three insights as they simply ask questions and listen:

1. Understand that the “why and how” questions can uncover mindsets and behaviors that validate whether the person is the right or wrong person to join your team.

2. Understand that when the interviewee answers this type of questions about their favorite and least favorite teacher/coach/boss that they are actually sharing behaviors they want to model or not model – character qualities. 

3. Understand that the “why and how” questions can uncover both the character and competence of the potential employee.

Oh, and once you start hiring the right people, the next question is, “How do I keep them?”  The only thing worse than hiring the wrong people is watching your best people leave when you don’t even have a clue they were dissatisfied. It turns out that there are five questions that every employee is asking – but don’t verbalize until it is too late! <<Click HERE>> to download 5 Questions Your Best Employees Are Afraid to Ask Before They Quit and start keeping your best employees.

Asking good questions is important in an interview – and in life. Jesus asked perhaps the most profound question when talking with his disciples. It’s a question that gets to the condition of our heart. He asked…

 But who do you say that I am?  Mark 8:29

When you interview a potential employee, do you focus on their competence or focus on their character? Are you afraid your best employees will soon give their 2-week notice? <<Download the 5 Questions Your Best Employees Are Afraid to Ask Before They Quit – it’s free>>.

Recent articles

——

[ ]

Community. It’s one of the core tenets of the Faith Driven movement. If you’ve been listening for a while, we hope you’ve heard stories from around the world that have opened up your eyes to see that FDEs are everywhere, and they’re faithfully pursuing God’s will right where they are. 

Today, we’re talking with Sue Alice Sauthoff who has recently joined the FDE/FDI team as our Community Manager. She’s going to share all the new initiatives intended to foster community among FDEs all around the world. 

We’re so excited she’s on the team, and we think after listening to this podcast, you will be too…

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Sue Alice Sauthoff: I think that to bring these entrepreneurs together who often do feel lonely or isolated in their role, not only because of what they do, but because of the great weight of the responsibility that they hold to bring them together with other people, to realize that they’re not alone, that there are other people that understand the situations they’re in and what they’re facing. It brings power. And that’s biblical, right. Jesus said the world will know us by our love for one another. And so if we’re able to show each other love and we’re not competitors, but we are brothers and sisters in Christ coming together, then the world is going to see that love and they’re going to ask questions and they’re going to see that there’s hope that we have. That’s really unique. And so not only is it an encouragement to us as believers to be in a community like that, but it also is shining a light into our world. William Rusty, great to see you both.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back here. Amazing to be here. So today’s really good topic. I think that one of the things a quote that I’ve been kind of just camping out on for a while now is C.S. Lewis. This is a quote attributed to C.S. Lewis. So we’re just going to say that it is indeed him, which is something along the lines of friends are when you come across somebody who says, oh, wait, I thought I was the only person that blank, you know, played Parcheesi in the pool or whatever the case is. Right. Fill in the blanks. And there’s something about the concept of being a Faith Driven Entrepreneur that is inherently lonely. And when you’re an entrepreneur and or business owner were out there and we’re trying to make it happen. Right. We’re trying to make it happen. We’re trying to go ahead and we’re trying to hire employees. We’re trying to keep employees. We’re trying to get customers in. We’re trying to get funding. And then actually, even when we come home, our spouses, you know, how is work? And, you know, we kind of almost are even selling them because they thought we should have kept that great job that we had at IBM or fill in the blanks. And so there’s something about being a Faith Driven Entrepreneur that is pretty lonely, I think. And I think that our group, the folks that we minister to in our ministered by Faith driven entrepreneurs tend to resonate with that. It’s hard to find really good community you get in church, right. And people are saying, I know they’re coming from all sorts of different walks of life, but you never really feel like your pastor gets you or the person in your small group get you. You guys ever feel that way when you’re in small group?

Rusty Rueff: Totally. Absolutely, totally. I mean, it’s like you’re in an alternate reality sometimes, right? You’re doing your thing and you’ve got these pressures of these stresses on you. But somebody else who’s outside of this sphere of being either an entrepreneur or outside of the sphere of your industry sector, you know, it’s like you should be able to relate, but it’s not relatable. And so you’re on your own. You’re on your own.

William Norvell: And then I find actually the most helpful people in that situation are the people with a lot of wisdom that say, you know, actually, I can’t relate to that. But here’s some thoughts on maybe something else you’re going through. But, you know, then it can get really dicey.

My point is, though, when people try to come in and they really don’t understand what’s going on at all and they try to offer advice and wisdom and it can be misguided and be frustrating and kind of take people down the wrong path at some level, too.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, well, you would know this, Henry, you know, running sovereign’s capital, you know you know how lonely the journey is because we’ve seen a lot of venture capitalists now who won’t or don’t want to invest in a social entrepreneur. Right. They want to see a co-founder. They want to know that there’s some support system, even if it’s just two of you.

Henry Kaestner: So it’s a known phenomena where two or more together, which doesn’t mean the guy’s not with you as a sole proprietor is an entrepreneur. Right. We’re talking to somebody on a podcast episode. Recently, I was talking about developing a new technology informed by some twenty three. Right. Even though we go through the shadow of death, you’re with me. And that connotes almost kind of I’m alone, but you’re with me. And to be clear, you don’t need to have a partner. We think that at the ministry that it surely is preferable if you can find that person that’s yoked with you and pray with you and cry with you and celebrate with you and all that. But we have tried to get a little bit more intentional about community in the ministry. And we’ve got a guest today that is helping us to lead that initiative. And we have to Saathoff on the podcast with us. And she’s come in as the director of community with what we do, a Faith Driven Entrepreneur. And she’s going explain what does that look like and what does it look like and what could it look like but doesn’t look like it now, et cetera. But with her, as with anybody else that we have on the show, Swails, who are you? Where do you come from? What’s your background to the show?

Sue Alice Sauthoff: Thanks. I’m glad to be here. Yeah, well, first and foremost, I am a wife and a mom. My husband Matt and I have been married for 18 years and we have two girls. Breckon is in seventh grade and Browning is in third. So it’s a fun household with lots of energy all the time. And, you know, professionally, I would have to say that everything kind of started at age 14 when I felt like God really gave this clear call for me to go into missions. And I had just come back from a mission trip to Mexico, grew up in Texas. So we just got across the border for a week. And at the time, my fourteen year old self that you know what that is going to mean? I’m going to live in a hut somewhere the rest of my life. And funny how God takes you on a very different journey than what you imagine as a 14 year old. And I thank him for that. So I went to Baylor University and I graduated with a Spanish degree, English and political science miners. I have no idea what I thought I was going to do, but I had a really smart person tell me. If I learned how to think, then I could do anything. And so I can think in two languages and so can Rusty. I’ve heard that about Rusty I knew.

Rusty Rueff: I mean, I knew you were going to do it. I just wanted to see how long it was going to take. One time I try a little Spanish on another episode of the podcast.

And it’s going to stay with me forever, forever. So, all right, I’ll take that.

Sue Alice Sauthoff: I’ll take it. Yeah. So when I left college, I got married and my husband was getting his masters at Vanderbilt and I got a job teaching Spanish and coaching soccer for several years. And that led into going into the education sector. I worked with a corporation helping them liaise with the Department of Education in Mexico, providing educational programing for offenders who were and in correctional facilities and would be released whatever their home country was afterwards. And so we were providing education for them somehow. That then led me to working with Samaritan’s Purse and I was with them for about five years, developing volunteer networks and growing volunteer teams across the United States, equipping them for the work that God had called them to do. So it’s been a really strange journey. But what has been the constant is that God has shown me that through all of this, this is missions that the work that I’ve been a part of has been taking the gospel and taking the name of Jesus to parts of the earth I didn’t know existed here in the States and literally to other parts of the globe.

And he’s done that in a really unique ways that I could not have thought out myself by any means and so grateful for the journey God has brought me on that now has led me to Faith Driven Entrepreneur.

Henry Kaestner: Indeed, indeed. You are also bobblehead doll fan. What does that mean?

Sue Alice Sauthoff: I have a really special bobblehead doll. I’m a huge women’s basketball fan, especially college basketball. And Baylor coach Kim Mulkey is a bit of a hero of mine. And so Kim sits on my desk beside me with her three national championship trophies to remind me that when I’m tired or when I’m feeling discouraged, I can keep going, I can do it and I can spot all. Had to be a Baylor basketball fan. It is a great year to be a Baylor basketball fan.

William Norvell: So I have a much less heroic bobblehead story. If this was video, you could see this. This probably looks like me because it is. And I have always lamented to my wife, better looking than you. Thanks, Bud. I appreciate that.

Oh, no, it’s because everything looks good. It looks good.

I’ve always lamented to my wife I love bobbleheads and I’ve always just kind of said off the cuff, like, man, I really want my own bobblehead one day and one year for Christmas. This little guy was born.

Henry Kaestner: I was there like the limited release. I mean, can our listeners get them?

William Norvell: You know, there was a limited release of one. But yes, I mean, I’m happy to put these on the site.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. Yeah, it totally it totally explains one thing about you. That’s why you’re constantly moving your head like that all the time. I never understood why you kind of bob your head around like that, but there you go. It’s definitely not the caffeine and ADT.

Henry Kaestner: So tell us about why you’ve joined our team.

Sue Alice Sauthoff: Yeah, well, I have come on this team as the community manager to really help grow the community of entrepreneurs together globally and to expand that and see that multiply. I think that to bring these entrepreneurs together who often do feel lonely or isolated in their role, not only because of what they do, but because of the great weight of the responsibility that they hold to bring them together with other people, to realize that they’re not alone, that there are other people that understand the situations that are and and what they’re facing. It brings power. And that’s biblical. Right. Jesus said the world will know us by our love for one another. And so if we’re able to show each other love and we’re not competitors, but we are brothers and sisters in Christ coming together, then the world is going to see that love and they’re going to ask questions and they’re going to see that there’s hope that we have. That’s really unique. And so not only is it an encouragement to us as believers to be in a community like that, but it also is shining light into our world.

Henry Kaestner: It tell us a bit about how you see that coming together and kind of practical. So you’ve been on board for a month and a half or so now. And right now you’re in the middle of this initiative we’re doing together the Right Now Media Faith Driven Entrepreneur Partnership video series, eight weeks. We’ve got entrepreneurs from all around the world that get together via a video resume and we’re able to go through this curriculum together with this small video vignettes done in our partnership with Faith and Company, which are so, so good, really just very, very good. High production quality, incredible stories of Faith driven entrepreneurs, followed by teaching by JD Grear. But the magic of it really is this interaction between 12 to 15 entrepreneurs from all around the world coming together and community. And so you’re starting to get a sense of that as you see that, aside from doing more of that. And we’ve got more classes that are starting in March and maybe every month going forward because we’re starting to get some momentum and a lot of the people have gone through it. First Time said, I want to teach it to my own local community. But aside from that. Maybe you can talk about that one particular initiative. What does your vision look like in terms of building community over the course of the next couple of years?

Sue Alice Sauthoff: I think it would be amazing to see it really grow on a global scale, to see community what starts with one, grow to more and more in local communities, whether it’s Johannesburg or Atlanta or Dallas or Jakarta all over that. We’re able to start with the one person, the one person that comes to the group that is activated to really dig deep into what they’re doing, integrating their faith and work together and then passing that on to the next person. And that one person then becomes another group of 15 in their area. And those 15 people are activated. And that grows into more and more communities growing together as believers, but also then as entrepreneurs taking their God given skills and abilities, uniting those together or encouraging them in their individual pursuits to do greater things than they thought they could before activated by that faith that they shared together.

Rusty Rueff: So some people have an experience, some do with small groups, very positive in some places. Some people don’t even know what a small group is. So let’s back all the way up. What’s your definition of the FDE small group experience? And really, why is it important?

Sue Alice Sauthoff: Yeah, so practically, I think this FDE small group is a place where Faith driven entrepreneurs can come together, they have, as Henry mentioned, the short video where they’re able to really see an example, a story told of an entrepreneur who has walked this journey before them, and then they’re able to come together and really discuss it and bring this practical experience. What’s really unique about it is that it’s bringing a lot of entrepreneurs who maybe they’ve read a book before, maybe they have read an article, something that’s really stimulating this idea of integrating faith and work together. But they don’t know what that next step is. They’re not ready to jump into something that’s a much greater commitment, like a Praxis or C12 convene and something like that. This is a great first step to really connect them first to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur community, get them really thinking about their ideas about that, challenging what it looks like to integrate faith and work. And then after this group, we are always really pushing them to those next steps of what does that look like for each person?

Is it going next to Praxis, to C12, convene ocean or whatever that may be to really help them go even deeper?

Rusty Rueff: I love that. I love that. I mean, I think we all sort of need an on ramp, if you will, to how we go deeper in our faith and how we go deeper in our relationships with others that have similar experiences we have. So I think it’s really, really powerful. I’m in a small group in my church and have been for 15 years. And, you know, the journey that we’ve come along together as we’ve all grown, you know, has been just so enriching in my own life. So I encourage everybody to think about this. I know we’re in the midst of our second cohort of these FDE small groups. So can you tell our listeners, you know, what these groups are about, how they’re formed, kind of what they do?

Sue Alice Sauthoff: Yeah. So it really starts with a first step of somebody who’s interested, coming onto our website, filling out a registration form, saying, hey, I’m curious about this. I’m going to find out more. I want to be a part of one of these groups. And then we’re able to place 12 to 15 entrepreneurs and a group that’s led by really incredible facilitators. The people that we have facilitating these groups, they love Jesus. They are experienced entrepreneurs and they have a lot of wisdom to be able to share. But also we’re really good at connecting the people in the group. So Henry and William are both some of our facilitators. We also you’ve heard in other podcasts from Andrew and Vep, and these are some of the people that are facilitating these groups and bringing them together each week. We just meet for an hour, we watch the video, we talk, we share and we celebrate together and talk about challenges that they’re facing and problem solve together where possible as well.

Rusty Rueff: Well, you know, we love stories so early on now a month and a half, two months. You have stories for us about what you’re hearing about what’s happening in these groups.

Sue Alice Sauthoff: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the exciting stories that we just heard a couple of weeks ago is Henry ran one of these cohorts back in the fall and one of the ladies that was a part of that lives in Kampala, Uganda. And she was so encouraged by it that she’s taking this group and she has just started a small group in Kampala with 15 women entrepreneurs. She has a vision to see women in Uganda being able to step into the marketplace, give them access, resources and encouragement. They need to do that. And so she’s using this study as a first step to do that. Another story that’s just been really encouraging has been as we went through week for talking about how excellence matters, one of our small groups had a really personal and intense discussion about what that looks like as believers. And so to watch these entrepreneurs come together and discuss matters of faith and how that applies to the workplace, they were wrestling with specific issues about what it looks like in their particular business to love their customers well, while also maintaining a balance with their family. And they’re talking about how it’s really hard to pursue excellence while also being excellent in their family and their business and everywhere and what that poll looks like as a believer. So hearing some of those just raw moments with people I think have brought a connection. You say love storytelling. I love storytelling, too. And I think that really loves storytelling. So I think when we tell stories, we’re doing exactly what he says throughout the Bible to do, to remember what he has done so that we’re able to then speak faith and truth to other people so that their faith will grow, that if I hear, man, God did this amazing thing for Rusty and I can believe that God’s going to do the same kind of thing for me in the future.

And it builds my faith by sharing and remembering what Gottstein. For others.

Rusty Rueff: Uh, so I know we have listeners right now who are saying there going, oh, I would love to do this, but, you know, I don’t have time. I don’t know how I’d fit it in. Is this really for me? Bring them home, give the pitch. You know, why do they need this? And then we’ll go to, you know, what they do next.

Sue Alice Sauthoff: Yeah. So there’s a million really good things that we can all do with our time. Right. And there’s so many great opportunities. I think what makes this unique and what I would say is the reason that they should take the plunge and do it anyway is that this is a place where God can bring growth in a way that is unique to other places.

I can go to my church and I’m finding immense, profound spiritual growth, but it’s not always connecting with the work that I’m doing. And so to wrestle with other people in that same place is really unique. And that’s not to say that we don’t need to be spending our time wrestling with matters of faith and the church. Absolutely. That’s where we need to be doing that as well. So I would just challenge our entrepreneurs that are listening right now to really ask yourself, what are you looking for right now? Are you looking to grow in your faith and your work together?

And if so, it’s worth taking the time one hour a week for eight weeks to really devote yourself to this study and connecting with other people to see what God can do through you during this time.

Rusty Rueff: I think it’s great. And I like the way you talk about this being additive. So I’m a church guy, right? I love my church. I think it’s important that we’re in church, that we have church community. So we might be in a small group in our church. This is not a replacement for that. This is additive. This is our small group for our vocation, our profession, and how we expand and bring glory to God in our work. So I want to just hit on that point because I would want anybody. We have a lot of pastors listening, right? We don’t want him to go. Oh, wait a minute. They’re trying to take people out of our small groups. No, no, no, no, no. This is all additive.

Henry Kaestner: Absolutely. I’m glad you made that point. The other thing is we’ve talked about before, there are some groups and some ministries take a really, really deep with entrepreneurs and local community. They’ve got just very rigorous approaches to building meaningful community among peers. C12, FCI, convene CIBM. See, of course, the work that is done really intentionally with the ocean accelerator, with Praxis or movement is the top end of the funnel. It’s helping a entrepreneur to understand they’re part of a larger tribe, part of a larger movement that God is doing in the marketplace, and for them to really lean into that and then as they then interact to find different local communities that we really want to help them to find. We have 50 different partner organizations now on the FDE marketplace all around the world. We’re talking about Uganda. And as this group of women are then finished going through the FDE video series, there’s Hindiya, which is on the ground in Uganda. You’ve got the work of Zappos to be able to give some really great training and then further community. So this is a big movement with lots of really key players. And by the way, what we’re talking about that as you want to get more involved in some of the incredible ministries in the world, they’re doing great work in the space. Please reach out to VEP, who’s our director of partnerships for the FDE marketplace, and he can walk you through them. They’re all doing incredible work and many of them are getting contributions in terms of mentors, but then also financial support that we provide them and many others do. So important to note, this is part of a larger ecosystem. Thanks, Rusty.

William Norvell: Absolutely. I feel like we are just blessed with relationships. And, you know, you mentioned some around the world. There’s Missy Wallace at the National Institute of Faith and Work and now taken over Redeemer Faith and Work Center. There’s Jeff Hanan in the difference to the faith and work.

And we really see our goal as being the top of the funnel to help you find your tribe. And what I love about Watsa, Alice is talking about what my group’s experiences.

Hey, this is a great almost like a missing step in the movement to come in for eight weeks, be a part of something, and then we get to build that list of what’s next. Right. You could start your own group if you’re in Denver. You need to be Jeff Hanan. If you’re in Nashville, you need to meet Missy. If you’re in Uganda, you need to meet, you know, the hincker folks and things like that. So it’s been fun to see and help people find their tribe. And I think that’s what Sue Alice, it’s just really been ramping up over the last few months. And so on that note, I would love to give you an opportunity to talk about what else is there. You know, so this eight week program is a nice bite sized approach to come in, get a little taste of things. One of the things I’ve loved in my groups is watching the other people. I’ve been talking to some other people. And this is actually you know, I’ve been getting together with Stephanie on the side. We’ve been talking every week. And so, you know, obviously that’s really fun to see relationship start that will last beyond the group. But what other offerings are you working on right now that maybe if people don’t want to join the group, that other things they could plug into?

Sue Alice Sauthoff: Yeah, that’s great. Well, I would say for one of those things, if you feel like you’ve already kind of done this and this is your. Already, as an entrepreneur, maybe it’s your opportunity to lead one of these small groups that you can take the opportunity to do that wherever you are and step into that. Another thing that we’re doing is called flight school. So once a month, we are bringing in really amazing speakers, not just to talk because anybody can listen to somebody talk.

You guys are listening to a podcast right now, but this gives interaction as well. So it’s an opportunity once a month to come and not only hear from these incredible speakers, but then interact with them, have a live Q&A time with them, have networking time at some virtual tables where you’re really able to go a bit deeper. And so coming up over the next few months, we’re going to hear from actually, William, you’re going to be up very soon in March. And we also have Rusty coming up as well. Jessica Kim, David Sayer’s and Cleeve, we have some really amazing people coming. So that’s a great place to go. A little bit deeper on specific topics. Those are definitely and more typically focused venue. We also have our conference coming up in September. So on September 9th, we have our FDE conference. One day it’s going to be incredible. And it is a virtual conference about what we’re trying to do is bring it local. Again, we want to take what is happening kind of at this high level and bring it down to the one, bring it down to each person, connect with each person that really needs to integrate their faith and work as an entrepreneur. And so we’re looking to have local site hosts all over the world. We already have a few people committed across the world in Egypt and South Africa and in Atlanta. So you name it, we want to go there. So if that’s something that anyone listening is interested in participating with us and partnering with us as a site host, you can go to our website and check that out and find out more information there.

William Norvell: Absolutely. That’s amazing. And you just want to point out, I mean, I’m going to choose a minute to encourage Rusty a little bit, for instance. Right. I don’t know if we’ve specifically spent a lot of time talking to Rusty background, but Rusty has got a lot of experience and a lot of hard won wisdom in the Amen people management and corporate culture space. And so he’s going to be doing one of these flight schools where he’s going to give if you have not heard, I don’t think we’ve given him the opportunity to give his shadow of a leader talk, but he’s probably sprinkled in snippets over the years. I mean, that is just such an opportunity to learn from someone who’s been in there who understands it. And then it’s a great Q&A format to where you can bring your questions and talk to someone. And it’s going to be amazing. And I’m so excited for those events and to see how that grows. So thank you for doing that.

And by the way, I feel no pressure now. I feel good. Good. We’re going to record it and we’re going to send it to everybody. If you’re on the mailing list, you’re getting it. But it really is. I mean, I learn every time, you know, it’s one of those thought-Provoking things.

When you think about being an entrepreneur and building a company, you can hear over and over and over again and always take great wisdom from it.

And the same for all the other speakers coming up through someone listening, an entrepreneur, you’ve got them hooked. What’s some of the first steps? How would they find out about some of these events? Where can they sign up?

Sue Alice Sauthoff: What’s the best way to get involved so everything can be found on Faith Driven Entrepreneur, ERG? So under the Community and Events tab, you can find information about joining a small group, leading a small group flight school, the conference, all of those things are there, as well as a lot of other really encouraging content videos, podcasts, the daily blog, all of that can be found right there. So the first step is just go to the Web site and filling out one of those forms, taking the bold step to raise your hand and say, I’m ready to try this.

William Norvell: That’s great, and so, Alice, I want to give you one last chance here as we come towards the close, what would be your last plea for entrepreneurs to find a community of minded folks to walk down this journey with?

Sue Alice Sauthoff: You know, statistics show us that entrepreneurs are anywhere from two to 10 times more likely to suffer from mental challenges. The stress is really intense scene that personally, even within my own family, of how that has affected them. And so God didn’t design us to live alone. He designed us to live in community. We are many parts of one body, and when the body tries to function, a person tries to function as the body all by itself, not realizing that it’s just a part. It doesn’t go well. That’s not how God created us. And so this is an opportunity for the body of Christ as entrepreneur, specifically in your vocation, to come together and encourage one another and build each other up and be encouraged and be built up and walk this journey with other people that just can’t be oversold because that’s how God designed us.

William Norvell: Can’t say much better than that. Thank you for giving us that vision for what it could be like to be in community. And as we do come to a close, the thing we love to do is try to transcend our listeners and our audience through the word of God. And I would love to invite you to share where God has you in his word, either today or in the season, whatever might come to mind to share with them and walk us through that.

Sue Alice Sauthoff: So three years ago, God said it was time to start walking through the Bible very slowly, cover to cover three years. Then I’m in Isaiah now, very slow journey. But what’s been really beautiful to see as I’ve been reflecting over themes of where God has brought his people up through the time of where I am and Isaiah, is this constant battle between the children of Israel trusting God and his story that he’s writing for them or trusting empire? And as we’ve had kind of a crazy last few months, I think God has shown me where I have wanted to trust Empire, where I’ve wanted to trust in the security that the world can offer, whether that’s a stable government health economy, stabilized things that maybe living in this Western world that I do, I don’t even realize how much faith and trust I put in those rather than trusting God and the story that he’s writing for me. And like in Isaiah Chapter 30, he says you look to Egypt for certainty and he says your identity is wrapped up in the holy city. It’s not wrapped up in God. But then he says in returning and Rusty will be saved and quietness and trust, you’ll find strength. And so that’s where I’m really trying to sit and rest right now and be quiet before him and let him remind me that I can trust his story, I can trust what he is doing and that he is good. He wants good for me and that my certainty is not in a place or other people, but it’s in a God who creates places for me to bring him into the world.

William Norvell: Hmm, Amen, thank you for sharing. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for all you do. Amen FDE and for bringing this Much-Needed piece of community to entrepreneurs around the world. Was really great to be with you guys today.