President & Chief Executive Officer | CEO Forum

Dr. Richard S. Lytle currently serves as President and Chief Executive Officer of CEO Forum, Inc. Additionally, he serves on the business faculty at Abilene Christian University as Director of the Lytle Center for Leadership and Faith Development in the College of Business Administration after having served as dean of the College from 1999-2016. He served as one of only 7 deans in the school’s 75-year history and has been a member of the Abilene Christian University faculty since 1991.

Of most importance in Lytle’s life are faith and family. He and his wife, Jeanne, are active members of the Southern Hills Church of Christ and often teach together. They have three beautiful daughters, Kelly, Hannah, and Michelle. Together, they enjoy teaching about family matters and leadership. They enjoy a variety of activities including Great Lakes boating, water/snow skiing, hiking, running and global travel.

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CONTRIBUTIONS TO FAITH DRIVEN ENTREPRENEUR

Today, we’re talking about ESOPs, which stands for employee stock ownership plan. For businesses looking to transfer ownership of their business, many are looking to ESOPs as a way to keep the culture they’ve created within their company. 

We invited Kris DenBesten, President and CEO of Vermeer Southeast, to share his experience of turning his business into an ESOP. He gave us the full scoop on what he and his company walked through, the questions they asked when making the decision, and the reasons they made the move.

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Kris DenBesten: One day I was with her all day long, my wife had gone to do something and we had watched TV all day and I just hung out with her like we did every day in the hospital. But when she came, she my wife came to relieve me. I was going back home to actually go to work and do a few things. And she said, How was today? And Grayson said, it was a great day, Mom. Dad’s phone rang 12 times and he didn’t answer at once. Wow. Here’s my little girl playing life in an intensive care unit, and the thing that made it a great day for her is that I didn’t answer my phone when it rang. And what that had told me is that all these years I thought I was a present parent. I thought I was. But the phone was always more important than they were. And she noticed that.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast Rusty William, good morning.

Speaker 3: Good morning. Good morning, sun shining where you are?

Henry Kaestner: Oh, very much so. It’s an absolutely beautiful, beautiful California day, which makes me think there’s probably shining where you are. But, you know, Burlingame, it could be a little bit dicier.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, yeah. You know, microclimates. But it is shining today. And and I’m I’m excited about shining. We’re going to hear about shining.

Henry Kaestner: Oh, that’s a good one. Where are you going with that? Yeah. It could have gone to the Jack Nicholson movie. It could have gone to a lot of different places. But I’ll tell you one thing before we move off the weather and people aren’t going to want to hear about the weather. But before I moved out here and so William lives between us in Atherton and before I moved out here, I was used to having a weather report on a TV station, which is this is the weather. Everybody in the Baltimore metropolitan area. This is going to be your weather. But out here, these microclimates are actually a thing. And so actually, it’s not a foregone conclusion that the weather will be the same for me as it is for you guys, even though you’re 10 miles away.

Rusty Rueff: I actually have a I have a video that I took in my house when we lived in Hillsboro, where it was raining on one side of the house and dry on the other. Wow. And I could walk back and that was a mild climate. But but it’s usually, you know, I find it’s about a degree a mile from San Francisco down. It’s, you know, give or take. But, you know, yeah, it’s it’s crazy.

Henry Kaestner: But coldest winter I ever spent was a summer I spent in San Francisco. OK, so more to the point of what we’re talking about today, we’ve got a great guest on. And, you know, we’ve been writing about this theme and there’s this image that we talked about recently and just kind of an observation that no one has ever seen somebody wash a rental car unless you work for the rental car company. Right. What does that mean?

Rusty Rueff: Doesn’t happen. What’s the difference between owning something and renting something? Right. You know, what’s the old lines? The fastest car on the road, a rental car. I mean, you drive it is somebody else’s neutral driver.

William Norvell: The great sign of that in Days of Thunder, if anybody wants to go back to nineteen eighty eight with Tom Cruise. Great rental car, Jason.

Henry Kaestner: I don’t remember that one.

William Norvell: That’s where I stopped real, OK? I mean, this is a big day. This might be the end of my FDE.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, that’s very good. That’s very good. OK, we’ve got a special guest with us, Chris Den Besten. Am I close?

Kris DenBesten: That’s that’s perfect. Well, that’s

Henry Kaestner: perfect. Thank you. Thank you. My last name is Kaestner and ninety five percent of people mispronounce German and Dutch last names. And so I feel like I’ve won something. And the reason why we just talked about the fact that you don’t see anybody walking around car, of course, is because it has a lot to do with ownership. And so we’re going to be talking about a number of different things with Chris today. And we’re going to be talking about ownership through ESOPs. We’re going to be talking about his personal story. He’s got a book that’s coming out called Shine, and we delve into all that. Chris, thanks for being on the program.

Kris DenBesten: Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Henry Kaestner: So, Chris, we’d like to get an autobiographical flyover of all of our guests and just understand who you are, where you come from, to what degree faith has impacted your life, of course, on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We sure hope that it’s impacted at some level. But tell us about your story growing up and who you are, please.

Kris DenBesten: OK. Well, sure. I was born in Pella, Iowa, which is where Vermeer manufacturing plant is in. My dad worked there and when I was three years old in 1967, he was given the opportunity to start a Vermeer dealership in the southeastern United States. So we moved from Iowa and my dad started here in Orlando, Florida, in nineteen sixty seven, our business. So I was born in Iowa, but I’m as close to a Floridian as you can possibly get.

Henry Kaestner: Where did you go to college?

Kris DenBesten: I went to college at the University of Arkansas, which is an interesting place for someone from Florida. I was a pretty good golfer in high school.

Henry Kaestner: Feels like halfway between Iowa and.

Kris DenBesten: Yeah, there you go. Halfway back to my roots. I was a pretty good golfer in high school and got a golf scholarship there. And when I got up there, I found out that there were people that were really good at golf and that I wasn’t one of them. So that’s what got me to Arkansas. But I did play at Arkansas about the same time as a guy named John Daly who did OK.

Henry Kaestner: Oh, yes. Yes, he did. The great golfer. Not as good on the health food side.

Kris DenBesten: Yeah, I don’t think we want to go there, so we’ll just go stick with the bull.

Henry Kaestner: One of the great stories of all time. I don’t know if some of our younger listeners will remember John Daly, but really did bring in a question as to whether golfers or athletes are not

Kris DenBesten: absolutely what

Henry Kaestner: they are. To be clear, they are.

Kris DenBesten: Oh, yeah. And he was incredible. I mean, to be able to hit it that far and still be a good putter and actually a really nice guy. I know maybe some other things get heard about him. But anyhow, and

Rusty Rueff: apparently a pretty good father I saw him play and that father son thing recently with his son, who’s a really good golfer. I mean, it looks like he’s on his way.

Kris DenBesten: Yeah, I just heard actually that I actually heard that his son just signed to play golf at the University of Arkansas. So he’s following his father’s footsteps. Yeah.

Rusty Rueff: Nice school.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so you grew up in a Christian home?

Kris DenBesten: Yeah, yeah. Definitely grew up on a Christian home. I guess would jump in a little bit to the business. You know, my dad started it and when I returned from Arkansas in 1985, I needed a job and he needed employees. So it seemed like a natural fit. But it wasn’t really my passion at the time. But I went to work at the company and bounced around. Did a bunch of I say, I’ve done every job within the company except I’m a mechanic and there’s a reason for that. I can’t fix anything. So but I grew up after that in the company and it began to thrive a few years after I got there. In fact, it grew from about six million in sales in the early 90s to almost 85 million by the end of the 90s. And that’s when I ended up getting the opportunity to buy in and become an owner at that time. So but my dad and his partner were great faith driven entrepreneurs, which is perfect for this show. They were equipped for starting something from scratch and then growing it to a certain point. And what was great is myself and a couple other business partners came in and we were more an organizational builder type group where we could take it and hire people and grow teams and lead them. So we were there during those great growth years and then we were able to take it even farther. And now, just recently, two years ago, we sold the company to our employees through an ESOP, which I know you want to talk about as we go.

Henry Kaestner: Indeed we do. I also want to delve in a little bit just to set the stage and some of the, you know, the personal story with your family and just how that shaped you and the business. And, yes, absolutely. We want to get into, you know, how you made a decision to sell to an ESOP. I think that that’s unique. And I don’t know. William and Rusty, if we’ve had another guest on the program this ever delved into that, but before we do that, to the extent you’re comfortable with it, share a little bit more about your personal story.

Kris DenBesten: OK, sure. So when I started at the company, I actually had a light bulb moment. I wasn’t much of an employee and I heard some of the other employees who didn’t know I was within earshot talking about how worthless I was and how I’d never amount to anything and that my dad owned the place. And that’s the only reason I was working there. And at that moment, I kind of it was taken a little bit back and realized that they were right. So I won’t call it the right kind of motivation or the right kind of vision. But at that moment, I looked ahead and for the first time in my life, I had a vision and it was, I’m going to run this business someday better than my dad. And I wanted to prove to those guys that what they were saying about me was wrong. So with that in mind, I really began to apply myself and work really hard. And I did. I learned all I could about the business, worked my way through sales and then management and then eventually owning the company. And one day I closed the biggest deal in the history of our company. And I walked in to tell my dad about it because I knew my day had come. You know, now I have reached that point and told him about the deal. And I shook his hand when he congratulated me and instead of saying thank you, I said, what’s the biggest deal you ever close, dad? And. He thought for a minute and he said, you know, I don’t know that any deal stands out, but I think what stands out most to me is that this company has provided for so many families for so many years. And I’m just thankful that God’s allowed me to play a part in that. So here I am thinking I’ve finally reached this vision, this pinnacle of I’m going to do better than my dad. And he hits me with that, which, you know, a light bulb moment, you know. And it didn’t happen immediately. But over time, I began to realize that the vision I had was all for myself and the vision that I really needed to have if I wanted to be a faithful business owner, would be to seek a kingdom vision, something beyond just myself and over time and studying the Bible and different things, just trying to think, how do you apply work and faith? A Bible verse stood out. Matthew five 16. Let your light shine before men that they’ll see your good works and glorify your father in heaven. And thinking that through it didn’t mean that I would do good things that others would look at me. To glorify me, it meant that he would do good things through me that could glorify my father in heaven, and that’s the vision that we should have for our work, not I want my work to be about me, but I want my work to glorify him. And what does that look like? So over time, he began to reveal to me what that might look like. And it was pretty neat because my wife, when she was trying to help me, I didn’t know how to communicate that vision. I mean, I knew how to communicate a vision like we want to be 100 million dollar company. We want to be known as the best in our region. We want to. But how do you convey a vision like that? And she said, what if you could take that word shine and make it clear that way? And over time, the acronym Shine, which became our company’s vision we founded. So it’s five key principles that we wanted to show others that our work would look like Christ. What might that look like if he came to work at our place? So shine the five principles of shine our first of all, the S’s to serve others because we know the son of man came not to serve himself, but to serve others. If he came to work with us, he would definitely be serving others. The next is to honor God, the H the works he did. He came to glorify his father in heaven who sent him. And we if we want to be like trying to do the same, I is improved continually taking those gifts and talents that he’s given us and improving them not for ourselves, but for his glory. And then in his navigate by values, he gives us values in his word, scriptures that teach us how to live. And if we’ll navigate by godly values, we’ll end up where we need to be. And then finally, the reason for it all is to excel in relationships, to take the relationships that he puts in our lives and make an impact in other people’s lives. So it’s more of a this is what it would look like to let Christ be seen in your work. And it became our company’s vision. It’s definitely not a look at us. We shine because we can’t possibly do it on our own and we fail at it every single day. But it’s what keeps us pointed in the right direction. We want others to seek Christ in us, and we do it by following these five principles.

William Norvell: It’s amazing. Chris, thank you for sharing that. I just gosh, every time I hear a story like that, I’m just amazed at the way the manifestation of the Holy Spirit within different organizations, within different leaders. We bring so many people on. And I keep waiting to hear the exact same talk about how their culture is identical to someone else’s. And it never happens. It’s you know, God is as uniquely worked for you and your leadership group and and your formation with him to give you a slightly different vision, but still obviously using the principles of God. And so that’s just so much fun to hear. You know, you’ve got to introduce to us by great friend Mike Shero, a former guest here, C12, an organization we love dearly. And so I’d love to switch to a little bit of the scale of the business. Could you let our listeners know a little bit about the size of the business when you did sell it to your employees and kind of just a little flyover of what you did and what the organization looked like?

Kris DenBesten: Sure. Well, yeah, as you know, I started where my dad and his partner founded it from nothing in nineteen sixty seven this past year, we did one hundred and eighty five million in sales. We have eleven locations, two hundred and ten employees. So over fifty year period it’s grown from from two young men from Iowa to that size. And it’s, you know, it’s all businesses. We have some good years and some bad ones. But when we did put the ESOP together, we’ve had a great run over these two years, which is a great thing. And ESOP needs a few years of a good run and we’re off to a good start as it relates to that.

William Norvell: Oh, that’s great. And could you dove into the ESOP, even the acronym? You know, a lot of listeners are probably here and maybe I’ve heard that somewhere talk about the acronym and maybe even a little bit what you just said to wow, an ESOP needs a couple of years. How did you come to this conclusion? What other opportunities did you look at? Why did you finally choose an ESOP? So what is it and why did you choose it as the right option for your company?

Kris DenBesten: Sure. Well, ESOP is an employee stock ownership plan. That’s what the S.O.P stands for. So I just went over, say, Giani. So that’s what S.O.P is. But it’s basically the employees retirement plan ended up owning the shares of the company. So it’s a great. Vehicle for the right circumstance, so yes, we did look at all the different possibilities, we knew, you know, that it was time to begin looking at succession plans and what that might look like. And, you know, we didn’t want to sell it and walk away. We didn’t want to turn it over to someone else. That might change our culture, might change the concepts that we had had in place. We had a great team of leaders that had been developed and were there and basically were already running the company. So turning it over to our management team was definitely the way to go. But the most important thing being a faith based organization was we wanted to continue our culture. We wanted to continue the ministry that the company had been doing. And what better way to do that than to turn it over to the people that have been with you and running it for many of them over 25 plus years?

William Norvell: That’s great. I love the word you used there. I love the word you use circumstance. So I’m going to be slightly provocative. I feel like when I hear the talk about an ESOP, it just sounds amazing. Every time it’s like, wow, that’s obviously the answer. Man is really an answer for a Christ driven company. I mean, just obviously. Right. But I know there’s trade offs. I’ve studied the model a little bit and it sounds like you have to and I love the phrase you said that was the great option for our circumstance. Could you walk through, you know, why wouldn’t someone do this? If an entrepreneur is listening in, they’re hooked and they say, of course, I want to sell my company, the employees. What are reasons maybe they shouldn’t pursue an ESOP?

Kris DenBesten: Well, there could be a lot of them. You know, they have a sweet spot at a certain size below, maybe five to 10 million in sales as a little small. That could be one thing. But more than anything, it’s do you have the management team in place that can take it not only and continue it, but take it to the next level? That’s a key element. And a lot of situations like that, when you have those people, they want to buy in and you might have a scenario where especially if they could come up with the resources that it might be best to sell to your key people. And ESOP is the shares go to everyone. In our case, you know, the business had grown so big that none of our key people who grew up with us had the resources to try to buy the shares. And an ESOP basically becomes your funding mechanism to get that done. And so in that case, it works perfectly. Now, if there were one or two people that wanted to own the whole company that were your key people, they might not be real keen on an ESOP. So that’s an area where, you know, it may not work in other areas where the owners just want to sell out for the highest possible sales price they can get. You don’t get that in an ESOP. You get fair market value. There’s a valuation that takes place. And in order to make it work by the tax codes and things like that, it has to be sold for fair market value. So you have to have an ownership group that isn’t trying to maximize the dollar they sell for, but is trying to put the fair deal together. And it works in that instance because you want what’s fair for your employees and you want what’s fair for you as a seller. You also can stick around in an ESOP and run the company or you can choose to move on. In my case, I had a three year CEO contract and I’m in the third year of that. So we’ll see what happens come the end of this year. I’m sure I’ll stay on at the company. I may not maintain the CEO role, but so yeah, it’s not for everyone but those that is right for it’s amazing. And I’m like you like you said before, I was like, OK, what’s the catch? I got to hear the bad part of this. I know it’s coming because this all sounds too good to be true. In our instance, there was no catch. It was exactly what we needed to do and it worked out so far wonderfully well.

Rusty Rueff: You know, it also has the Esaw program underlying. It really has a lot of amazing values and principles that are embedded. Right. First of all, you’re transferring ownership, right? You’re giving up something which is also a bit of a power transfer. And at the same time, as you just mentioned, that, you know, your role may change and the company will live on. You’re also leaving legacy, right? It’s legacy. And I I know you have a personal story that shapes your thoughts around sort of next generation and story about your daughter. And if you’re willing to open up and tell that story for us, I think it would be really powerful for our listeners. And also to see into Chip a little bit about really who you are in a holistic way.

Kris DenBesten: Sure. So back in 2008, right after a really nice run up of the business where we had had really grown the business quite a bit, it had really taken off around Christmas time. My then nine year old daughter wasn’t feeling too well and she went to the doctor and they said she’s got what everybody has just a little virus going around. She’ll be fine by Christmas. Don’t worry about it, but by Christmas Eve, she wasn’t feeling well at all, and we took her back to the doctor and they said, you need to go in an ambulance right now to the hospital. When we got there, we found out that a virus, she indeed had a virus, but it had settled in her heart. And that’s a condition called viral myocarditis. And what happens is the virus settles in the heart. The body’s immune system attacks the virus and in doing so basically destroys the heart. And people that get this one third can survive with complications. One third need a heart transplant and one third die. So that was our Christmas Eve diagnosis. By Christmas Day, it was clear she wasn’t going to be in the good one third of surviving it with complications. And in fact, she was put in a coma and put on full life support. They basically told us there’s nothing we can do for your daughter. Her body is going to have to heal itself. And I I’ll never forget that moment because. That’s when my faith became real, instead of just a I thought to that point, I’m a faithful person, but at that moment I realized how real faith was and what I heard when the doctor said there’s nothing we can do. Was God saying only I can do this? And I told my wife, Robyn, that and she goes, that’s unbelievable. At the same time, he said that what I heard was she’s not in the doctor’s hands anymore. She’s in God’s hands. So together, we got a message of faith that allowed us to get through that moment that no parent would ever want. I mean, you think that’s the worst parent moment you could possibly encounter is to hear a doctor say there’s nothing we can do for your child. And the Lord just gave us peace. And we began to pray that whatever his will was, that it would be done. Obviously, we wanted him to give her back to us, but we knew if she was in God’s hands and she was going to keep her in heaven, that that’s where she was supposed to be. A couple of days later, they said there’s an experimental process. We can’t do it here, but there’s a doctor at the University of Florida that’s done it. This would be his fourth time. It’s a machine that’s not approved by the FDA, but they’re trying to get their approval of it. Basically, it was implanting this machine that became her heart and it seemed like the thing to do. So we did send her there. She got put on this machine called the Berlin Heart. Basically, it kept her alive. Until she could get a heart transplant and that became a four month wait in an intensive care unit where she survived barely day to day on this machine, and it was the journey of faith. That we just had to ask God every day for enough strength to make it through today. But can I have enough strength to make it till tomorrow? And I’ll never forget on April 15. So she had gone to the hospital on Christmas Eve on April 15 is when they said they had a heart that might work for her. And we gathered to pray and I prayed the dad prayer. Dear God, I pray that this heart will be perfect, that everything will work out, you know, wonderfully, be with the doctors, make this be exactly what she needs. You know, God, do what I want you to do. And I think obviously he tells us to make our requests known. I was making my request known. I told him exactly what I wanted as a dad, and it was her turn to pray. She was the last one to pray. And she’s nine years old. And she says, Dear God, thank you, that you may have sent me a heart. I pray that it will be the right heart and then it might heal me. But I want you to know if it doesn’t work out the way I want it to, I’m still going to trust you. Wow. It wasn’t God, do what I want. It was whatever you do, God, I’m going to trust you that the faith of a child and that’s that is the kind of faith I know that the Lord uses to move mountains. You know, it’s not what we do. We can’t move the mountain. But he can move our mountain us. If we’ll have a little faith, you can say to that mountain move and it will because he moves our mountains for us. And she did get a new heart and a new opportunity at life. And, you know, that was the year April 15, 2009. She’s now 21 years old and actually a couple of months ago got engaged and she’ll be married on June five. So really amazing story of faith, of getting through difficult times and, you know. That vision that the Lord gave me, that how can Christ be seen in us at our work? I thought it was all about work, but what I learned is it was really all about life because as we walked through those four months, my wife more than me, she was a light in the pediatric intensive care unit. She was the one everybody knew. It was her daughter on the machine that was temporary, that was experimental, that could die today. But she was singing praise songs. And I called her the kitchen of she’d share her faith every chance she got with his parents in an intensive care unit. They’re looking for something. And, you know, our lights most needed, not when we’re standing on the mountaintop saying, look at my business, how much is glorifying God. But when we’re walking through the darkest, roughest places, that that’s when the lights needed the most. And that’s when we’re really called the shine is in the darkness, more so than on the mountaintop. And, you know, just having that vision to make it through that rough time was what a kingdom vision is all about. You know, like I said earlier. It’s easy to have a personal vision or a company vision, but to have a kingdom vision, you know, how can I make it through every day? How can I let others see you and me? It’s made all the difference.

Rusty Rueff: Thank you for sharing that. You know, as we record this, you know, we’re in the beginning of twenty, twenty one and we’re in a time of extraordinary loss of loved ones. People are losing people unnaturally at this point because of the pandemic. And I think your words, you know, and your faith journey there just so encouraging. And the testimony of your daughter, I mean, don’t we all wish we could have that, you know, that level of faith? Just amazing. Just amazing. I’m going to bring it back to your leadership and your shine principles, and that will let William close us off. But, you know, post that moment in 2009. You know how that changed, Chris, as a leader?

Kris DenBesten: Oh, man. Oh, well, if you’ll also recall, that was a big downturn, so we had lost 60 percent of our revenues and I had just experienced a miraculous healing of my daughter, yet come to a business that was basically failing and needed to make some very, very tough decisions. One evening I remember then just weighing on me and I was sitting with my head in my hands and my wife walked through and she goes, it can’t be that bad. And I’m like, it is. You wouldn’t believe how bad it is. Some of the things we’re going to have to do, we’re going to have to shut stores. We’re going to have to let people go. We’re going to have to do this to survive. And she said, remember when the doctor said there was nothing they could do for Grayson, what did we do? We placed our daughter in her creator’s hands, don’t you think he’d like you to do the same thing with your business? Here I am, I had just witnessed that, yet I’m sitting there thinking, what can I do? What do I have to do? I’m the CEO, I have to save this now. I had to do the same thing that I did with my daughter. So we placed the business again in God’s hands and just said, Lord, take it where you want it. And every decision we made was based on prayer and trying to do things in a way that would honor and glorify him. And, you know, we were as compassionate as we could be with the people we had to let go, but we did what we needed to do and we trusted that he’d bring us out on the other side. And he did. So it changed my life completely. As a leader, but more so and more importantly as a father and as a husband. One real quick story, one day I was with her all day long, my wife had gone to do something and we had watched TV all day and I just hung out with her like we did every day in the hospital. But when she came, she asked my wife came to relieve me. I was going back home to actually go to work and do a few things. And she said, How was today? And Grayson said, It was a great day, Mom. Dad’s phone rang 12 times and he didn’t answer it once. Wow. Here’s my little girl playing life in an intensive care unit, and the thing that made it a great day for her is that I didn’t answer my phone when it rang. You know, what that had told me is that all these years I thought I was a present parent. I thought I was. But the phone was always more important than they were. And she noticed that. So, yeah, it. It’s those rough times when you grow the most, it’s those times when you have to rely on the Lord, where you grow the most, and he shows you how to live and how to, you know, not only how to run a business, but how to be a present father, how to be a present husband. So it was the biggest crucible of my life, but also the biggest growing moment of faith.

Rusty Rueff: So, hey, I just want to encourage you. Thank you for shining. Thank you for shining.

William Norvell: Absolutely. Thank you for sharing with our audience and then with us just kind of where God’s taken you and how he’s continued to walk with you and teach you and show you new parts of his faithfulness. So thank you for walking through that with us. And as we come to a close on our podcast and invite you to share maybe a little more, and what we love to do at the end is, is ask where God’s word may be coming alive to you. And, you know, it could be today, could be in the season, but just kind of share what part of God’s word and his scripture, you know, you might be meditating on today and share that with our listeners.

Kris DenBesten: While sure. As you know, Matthew 516 is my life. First, let your light shine me for others if they’ll see your good works and glorify your father in heaven. It’s what carried me through my business time, carried me through that time with my daughter, and it will continue to carry me through. But as as we’ve spoken today, I’ve been two years now of where I, I basically gave up my business. It was what defined me for all these years. And when you turn it over to your employees, you know, I had a time there where I was like, now what? You know, I did the best I could to bring the team along and train my replacement and all that. And when we got there, I was like, they don’t need me anymore. Now, why it should have been yay, they don’t need me anymore, I’ve done what I was supposed to do, but now it was a little bit of I don’t know what now, but over the last couple of years, the Lord’s been showing me that, you know, to just continue to use my experiences and the gifts he’s given me and and the talents and use them for his glory. And he’s provided some opportunities to use that through ministry and and help others to do workplace ministry, help others to understand that their business is indeed their platform to do ministry. So I wanted to continue to shine in whatever the Lord has in front of me. We’re not just defined by the business we ran. We’re defined by the life he gives us to live. And we’re only given one life. So if we can shine at work, we can shine at home, we can shine in the community. That’s what we’re called to are called to shine where he plants us. So that would be the journey now is wherever that may lead. I want to be led by his life.

President/CEO | Vermeer Southeast

Kris currently serves as president/CEO of Vermeer Southeast, a construction equipment company covering Florida, Georgia, Alabama, The Caribbean Islands, and Central America. Under his leadership the company has experienced growth in annual sales from $6 million at one point to over $100 million. Beyond his corporate responsibilities Kris is a board member of The Jobs Partnership Florida, a ministry for the under-and unemployed which teaches God’s principles for work and then helps graduates find jobs that provide hope and a future.

With early experience as a television sportscaster, Kris is a down-to-earth, from-the-heart communicator who effectively connects with all audiences. Kris shares his message of hope and Christ’s empowerment speaking at corporate events, churches, ministry organizations, in prisons, and through media. He and his wife, Robin, live in Windermere, Florida, with their three children: Cole, Gracyn, and Brooks.

LINKS

CONTRIBUTIONS TO FAITH DRIVEN ENTREPRENEUR

Chris Carneal is the founder and CEO of Booster Enterprises, better known by their brand Boosterthon, where they put on fitness fundraisers at schools all throughout the United States. 

Since founding the company 18 years ago, Chris has turned Booster into a behemoth. They’ve helped schools raise more than $350 million, and they’ve served more than 7 million students. 

But then COVID hit. And a team of 1,000 full-time employees dropped to 140. Chris takes us there and shares the feeling that every entrepreneur has experienced at some time or another—that the weight of the business is on your shoulders. Hear him share how his perspective has changed on who really holds the company and how he’s leading his business forward today…

Visit the Booster website: https://www.choosebooster.com/

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Chris Carneal: We were hoping for a in revenue terms, a 50 million dollar fall, that was the projections on March the 12th. By July the 16th, we were praying for a five million dollar fall and we’re not talking like I hear our reports, our revenues down 20 percent, we’re down 50 percent now. We were down one hundred percent for one hundred and seventy three days and we were running out of money quickly. No matter how efficient you are, when the revenue faucet shuts off, you eventually run out.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast, I’m here with my fearless co-host, Rusty Rueff, William Norvell, morning.

Rusty Rueff: Hey, Henry, how are you?

William Norvell: Good morning. No better place to be.

Henry Kaestner: There is no better place to be. We’ve got Chris Carneal in the House today. So many different things to talk about. I will start off, though, with a personal reflection, and it is as follows. I think that we all would think that we have really risen to prominence if we have had a ticker tape parade, if we are fettered, if there is such a word, I think there is the just channel, my internal French, if we are fed as if we were celebrities, if we were important, as if there is something to celebrate, who we are and what we do. And I think the pinnacle of that is a ticker tape parade. I have had one. I bet you guys didn’t know that. And I’ll tell you the story behind it. Three years ago, I was visiting Atlanta and I was going to meet with our guests today. Chris Carnel and Chris Carneal called me no fewer than three times as I went from the airport to his office to make sure I was still coming and what time I was going to get there. I thought I’ve never had somebody so eager to meet me ever. This is really awesome. And I found out why he had every one of his employees felt like hundreds. It probably wasn’t that. Many give Luke and I a ticker tape parade as we got there to his office. And I’ve never been that celebrated. Maybe my wedding. Maybe when people threw rice at me. Maybe, maybe not. But it was amazing. And that’s the type of guest we had today. He makes everybody feel special that encounters him. He has this spiritual gift of encouragement. He’s got great energy and enthusiasm. He’s got a great joy of living of his lord and savior. And he’s running a really cool business and he’s got a really great story. And that story is only getting better over the last couple of years and maybe even more so over the course of last year. And covid. And you’re about to hear why. But without further ado, Chris Cornell is a friend and is our podcast guest today. Chris, welcome to the studio.

Chris Carneal: Henry, I’m honored to be here. Thank you for that introduction.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, well, thank you for making it happen. And thank you for making Luke and I feel that special all those years ago. OK, you’ve listened to the podcast before. You know a little bit about the format. And one of the things that we like to do with every guest is to understand a little about who they are, where they come from. Give us a little bit of background sketch, then we’re going to get right into Booster’s. Found what you do and we’re going to just run from there. OK, who are you? Where do you come from?

Chris Carneal: All right. Well, first of all, I love this podcast. Listen to it. As recently as this morning, driving my daughter to school, I feel like this podcast was made for me. So for all of you to put so much time and attention into it, I listen to a weekly, it fuels me. It gives me even more mission and purpose. Feel like I’m part of a community that’s thinking the same ways and struggling with the same things, but all in it for God’s glory. So thank you for that. So I am forty one years old. I live in Metro Atlanta, Georgia, Johns Creek. I am the husband to Lindy of nineteen years, father of four amazing kids. Grace is almost sixteen. Ms 13, Christian is ten and Camden is eight. I love my kids are adventurous, they’re fun. Someone asked me recently, what’s your hobby? And at this stage of life and hopefully for the rest of my life, my kids are my hobby. Our family is our hobby. Currently coaching both my boys, baseball teams, America’s pastime. I was actually at the Braves game last night on my wife’s request for Mother’s Day. So we love baseball. I play college baseball for a few years. I’ve coached twenty seven of my kids teams. It’s just an awesome opportunity to connect with them, spend time with them, encourage them and their friends and their peers and make a difference in the community. Grew up in South Florida. Amazing parents grateful for the upbringing community. I had went to Stanford University in Birmingham. My wife and I actually in eighth grade, met when she moved in town from Kentucky. Our lockers were next to each other, but I had to chase her for a few years, still chasing her. But we fell in love at Stanford our freshman year, decided to get married before we started dating, so then decided we should start dating and

Henry Kaestner: we decided to get married. Before you started

Chris Carneal: dating, we knew we were going to get married. We told our parents and both of them said, Are you guys dating? I must have missed that. We said, no, not yet, but we’re just freshmen. We should. And so we started dating that summer, got married after we graduated. I was religion major then went to seminary for three years at Southern Seminary in Louisville, and I’ve been in Atlanta for sixteen years.

Henry Kaestner: OK, Bruce Morton. Well, Gusterson, what is it? How does it work where the idea come from?

Chris Carneal: All right. So I finished playing baseball at Stanford University, then I went to UAB for a year. Then I went back to Stanford. I realized I love baseball. I do not have what it takes to be a pro, but I want to be around sports. I love it. I enjoy it. My first business was a sports. Tutoring business creatively named all sports tutoring, creating room for other sports, which eventually came, but I started doing one on one baseball lessons for elementary kids, which is crazy because this is what I do right now as a dad. My kids are the ages of the kids I used to give lessons to. So second through fifth graders in Birmingham, Alabama, Crestline Field and Mountain Brook. And I saw very quickly I had the ability to simplify and communicate with students and they got better. Then I realized I have a platform. Let me communicate some character traits to students. Let’s talk about attitude and hard work and teamwork and efforts. So I kind of made up this simple basic curriculum content that I would use as a platform to speak, live and encourage these students. And then it felt so good when parents would say, my kid couldn’t hit it all. He didn’t have confidence. Now he’s hitting. And you know what? I don’t know what’s happening, but he’s a better brother or he’s a better friend. It’s some confidence and just kind of virtuous cycle of that. So one day, one of the students that I was giving a lesson to, Carter Gannon, was his name. He was a fifth grader. He said, hey, coach, before our lesson begins, my school’s doing a fundraiser, can you buy magazines? And there was also the second half. The catalog was wrapping paper. And I thought, I’m a college student with no money. I don’t want to buy wrapping paper or magazines. But wait a minute. When I was a kid, I did that. And at the same time, I also participated in a fund run that my dad organized at the school that I grew up. So I finished the lesson. I call my dad dad, that fun run we did when I was a kid. Where did that come from? The schools do that like, well, some schools do it. It is an unbelievable amount of effort. He was a volunteer, but he raised a lot of money. Hey, Chris, I got an idea. This is just a prophetic moment from my heavenly father to my earthly father to me. Hey, I’ll bet schools would hire you. You’re good with kids. You can motivate, you can organize. They trust you other. They’d hire you to host a fun run to put one on. So I said, OK. Then I called my mom, the educator, college professor, walk me through what teachers and principals think about in terms of fundraising. So I just briefly educate myself. And then I went around to schools, people in new schools, principals, friends, kids that I did baseball lessons for their parents. And I said I had an idea to replace the product sale fundraiser with a fun run and everyone was extremely gracious. OK, wait a minute. Yeah, that sounds good. We’ve had a fun run that’s not too new, but you’ll do the work great. We’d love that fundraisers are time consuming, but we don’t want to be your guinea pig. OK, so once you’ve done it a few times, come back and tell us. So this is the entrepreneur’s first dilemma, right? I’ve got a big idea. It’s so bold. I just need one client to say yes. And I knew as confidently as anything I could pull it off. I could raise a ton of money. It would be magical. So I traveled around. I literally was oh, for my first forty nine meetings. This is a college. No way here over forty nine. And I’m kind of running out of time, about to graduate in six months. One of the schools that I’ve met with, Shadowman Christian, the athletic director Bill Wylder who I call every year on April 15th and thank him my first client. Never forget them. Why on

Henry Kaestner: April 15th,

Chris Carneal: that was the anniversary of our first ever fun run event. So Coach Walter said, Chris, all right, I need to raise four thousand dollars. You think your program will do it, coach? Guaranteed. Oh, guaranteed. OK, well, since your guarantee and can you guarantee the four thousand I said yes. Done now four thousand to a twenty one year old college student who’s saving for a wedding and a honeymoon was a lot of money. It’s a lot of money now. There’s really a lot of money. Twenty years ago. So I said done, I guarantee it. So I didn’t tell my now wife at the time, Linda, but I guaranteed our honeymoon money. And more shocking to me than the school, the school profited nineteen thousand dollars. They were hoping for four. So I mean, I made every mistake. I don’t know what I was doing, but I just knew that overall the program would work. People would give pledges. Instead of buying a product, I can host a fun event for students. We’d emphasize fitness. Kids aren’t going to sell stuff. They’re actually going to participate in something that’s good for them and holistic and athletic. And then, boom, it was amazing. I worked great. I mean, I was running this literally out of my college dorm, filled up my college dorm with prizes and posters and everything. I had to sleep on the couch for a month or two because I ran out of room figuring it out every single day as I went, but then graduated in a few months and thought, OK, well, that was awesome. But now what? My wife and I got married, went to grad school seminary in Kentucky, and then as soon as I get to Kentucky, the school calls me and says I let’s schedule next year. So then it began. Well, now I live in Kentucky, the schools in Birmingham, then another school called in Florida. And then about three years of me trying to figure out what do I do this do I not? Where do I do it then? Fast forward three years. We were pregnant with our now almost sixteen year old Grace. So when we’re pregnant, driving around the country living in people’s. We realized we eventually have to figure out, are we going to pursue this full time? Am I going to do the seminary route and the church planning route? Or am I going to do the business route and the commerce growth route? So that was a big decision and a big conversation.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so lots has happened since then. You’ve got much better than one for 50 hit rate tortas about booster’s done today. And I think that William, later on our conversation is going to get into what it’s look like, particularly over the last 18 months. But talk about Booster’s on from that first deal with Bill Wylder up to the zenith. And then as you rebuild toward that point and beyond. But give us an idea of size and scope, because you’ve been doing this at lots and lots and lots and lots of schools, right.

Chris Carneal: To work with about five thousand schools next year where currently we’ve raised schools about four hundred million dollars nationwide, school profit not total raised. That’s after every expense, that school profit. Let me jump back in time a second. The big struggle in my mind in those early years as a believer was I had what you talk about a lot, a false dichotomy. I thought I was a religion major. I went to seminary. I wanted to move back to South Florida, start a church. I wanted to change the world with the gifts that I had. So I thought, well, I’m entrepreneurial. I like risk. I like the unknown. I like starting things. I know I’ll start a church. That’ll be my way to mix entrepreneurship with ministry in a sense, because I put ministry in one box and then I put growth business in another box. And it literally took me a decade to figure out there’s only one box. It’s all sacred. It’s why we do things, not just what we do, but that was a long conversation journey. Lots of amazing people help me kind of connect those dots. Had to see it lived out. See, missional business owners live out their faith every single day. But I was going back and forth for a while. Do I do the church nonprofit route or do I do the business route? But then once we committed to move to Atlanta, let’s just try this for a couple of years, that’s what it was going to be. Let’s just see and then maybe still move to Florida. But after a few years, I was stunned and energized every day, realizing the team members I get to work with, I get to have an impact on them and they have an impact on me far more than I thought I could have if I did the nonprofit route, if that makes sense. So my heart was sparked that I’m becoming a better person. I’m having a missional opportunity in the context of a for profit business, just with the culture in the team members, not to mention the external impact of serving schools and taking work off of teachers plates and helping organize things. So that was just a huge light bulb moment in the moment. Probably lasted five to seven years of this is really is one thing I can use business to do it. So we grew like crazy with, of course, lots of ups and downs. The recession at eight and nine, just all kinds of challenges. So let me give you the size and scope. On Thursday, March the twelfth, two thousand twenty, we had almost a thousand team members. We were on pace to raise schools over one hundred million the following year, about eighty five. Ninety million in that current school year. We’re about to finish and have revenue of a little bit less. But in that range, I mean, we were I was about to turn 40 actually in two weeks. So, OK, what are the forties look like? We got this almost hundred million dollar company and a thousand team members and then we’re off to the races. And then Friday, March the thirteenth was day one of one hundred and seventy three days of no revenue. So to remind the listeners, we host events for schools. And in twenty twenty after March the 13th, every school and every event in America was paused, canceled on hold or somehow ritualized. So, you know, two weeks to flatten the curve, no big deal. Lose a few million dollars. What’s our worst case scenario. Oh man. CFO, what do you think. Well man, we might lose revenue for a month. That would be the worst case scenario. March goes by. I turn 40, maybe by late April, mid April, maybe by the end of April. Well, now we’re down six, seven, eight million. And what about now? Well, we basically five different times. Our worst case scenario became our best case scenario. In other words, what’s the worst that can happen? We don’t have revenue for a month. We don’t have revenue for two months for three. And then we’re like, I pray it’s only a month. I pray it’s only three months. I pray so. The spring was extremely rough. Thank goodness. My CFO, our managing team, we had a good balance sheet. We could survive it. That brought us basically to the summer where we thought, surely ninety days summer in America, things will open back up in the fall. We’ve never done this as a society before. Shut down schools, tell people and the whole country to quarantine. Surely the fall will be fine. So the day after our kickoff for the school year, July 15th, our booster university did kick off that night when I went to bed after this great celebration. Here we go. Here’s next school year. I started to get text at midnight from my San Francisco general manager, my New York general manager, even in some southern red states, I don’t think schools are going to open on time in the fall. I think the fall is going to look, unfortunately, more like the spring. So that began the last and final, thank goodness we’re out of options that are worst case scenario was we have no more clients I’ll spring to we’re going to have a very, very choppy fall. So we were hoping for a in revenue terms, a 50 million dollar fall. That was the projections on March the 12th. By July the 16th, we were praying for a five million dollar fall and we’re not talking like I hear our reports, our revenues down 20 percent, we’re down 50 percent now. We were down one hundred percent for one hundred and seventy three days and we were running out of money quickly. No matter how efficient you are, when the revenue faucet shuts off, you eventually run out. So, I mean, literally coming home and praying and crying with the family and all four kids, you know, listen, let’s pray for the family. Let’s talk about it. And it was so great now in retrospect that the dependance on the Lord trusting him, prayer, faithfulness, community, I mean, I’m looking back now just a little over a year later saying it might have been the best year of my life, certainly the deepest, definitely the most connecting to my heavenly father and to friends and community, my family. But, boy, it was the most challenging professional season that I’ve ever had to go through and hopefully ever will.

Rusty Rueff: That, as you describe that, Chris, I mean, I actually could feel like a little bit of sweat kind of breaking out all around me, because I can only imagine, you know, that feeling because was totally out of control. I mean, you can’t do anything. You know, schools aren’t going to open up, you know, no matter how much you want to have a fun run, that’s just not going to happen. So talk about total dependance. You know, I think I’ve actually run a number of your fun runs throughout the years all across the country. I love fun runs. So it’s a school and it’s a fun run. From now on. It’s Christmas. I know it’s yours. I know it’s yours. I want to take you back actually to where Henry kind of started with his ticker tape parade. And we know it wasn’t ticker tape because ticker tape went away. Fifty years ago. There was confetti, some type of confetti,

Chris Carneal: celebration, confetti cannons,

Rusty Rueff: celebration, confetti. You must have something in the culture of the company that would make you want to do that. And we love talking about cultures of companies. So take us through your culture and also take us how you got to that culture.

Chris Carneal: Oh, man. Well, our culture was this is what I love to talk about. This is my sweet spot. This is my passion. I feel like culture eats strategy for breakfast is, Drucker says, but it eats it for breakfast, lunch and dinner cultures. How you change people’s lives. I mean, this is what I get up thinking about passion about every day. Can I create the best? Can I cultivate, build, grow the best work environment in America? That’s what I want to do so I can get the best talent. They could be unleashed, that they can go home as better husbands and fathers and mothers and and siblings and community members. I want to work to be so fulfilling. It still has its thorns and thistles, of course, and challenges when you had a lot of them this past year. But I want the 40 hour work week for our team to make us better people, and I want to use it as a platform to do that. So culture is what I live and breathe. I’ve always loved it intuitively and even before any Crouch’s culture making book came out that I devoured and got the galley copy and had the privilege to listen to him talk through, I’ve always just intuitively know that the best environments bring out the best in people. How do we pull out and draw out potential? How do we see a firm something that exists inside somebody that they might not even see themselves? And how do we make it the best it can be for their and their communities thriving and flourishing? So I’m actually wearing my booster wristband that has our six virtues on it right now. The last virtue is celebration. So we don’t just view celebration as something fun. And confetti is just a novelty. It’s actually one of our values. We call them virtues. Now, two years ago, I kept looking at the values we had on the wall that I came up with 17 years prior. And I thought, you know, they’re losing a little bit of their stickiness. They’re not quite as distinctive. They’re not quite as meaningful as they used to be. So I said if we were to start the company all over again, what would the values be? So researching values, I discovered a word that’s ancient and timeless and also timely. And I discovered the word virtue and virtue seems to imply values, but it also seems to be something that can be agreed upon over generations, something that calls out the best in us, something that’s not just popular in the moment, but something that’s a truth for all time. So I said, you know what? Over the next year, I’m going to think and pray and talk to people about rebranding, recreating our values and turning them into virtues. So that began the process of me just thinking through who do I want to become personally? Who do I want the people that I have had the opportunity and privilege to steward a portion of their lives and work together who I want them to become, who don’t want our nation to become. But what are words that are distinctively booster? They’re us and it makes sense. So we came up with our six virtues and they’re in order on purpose. I actually begin my day when I wake up and drive to my morning Crosthwaite class thinking and praying through these in order personally before I lived them out for. So our six virtues and these are the words that define our culture. Gratitude, wisdom, care, courage, grit and celebration, gratitude, wisdom, care, courage, grit and celebration. If I wake up every morning grateful for what has been given to me, that just changes the posture of my heart in my day. I want to learn and listen. So I try to grow and wisdom. Then I’m motivated to do something and care for others. Every day there’s a decision that requires some courage or a challenge that evokes that in me usually lasts a little longer. I’m going to need a little bit of grit, persistence, perseverance. And then at the end of the day, there’s always something to celebrate. And then when celebrations, either individually or corporately, are done, well, you feel a sense of gratitude and we call that the virtuous cycle. So those are six adjectives, our virtues that define who we are and who we want to become. So they’re aspirational and they’re also actionable. We can never fully become those words, but we can head in that direction. And at the same time, I can do something every day practically. That makes me more virtuous.

Rusty Rueff: I love that. I love it. A lot of entrepreneurs, they know they should they should tackle this and they should have values and they should have virtues, but they just don’t quite get to it. Right. It’s like it doesn’t become the priority. Oh, yeah. We’re going to get to it, but they just never quite get there. Put out your plea to them on why they should.

Chris Carneal: Wow. Well, the best way to start is now find a time in the next month we can at least give yourselves a half a day alone and then eventually in some maybe in a community. But do you think short term Rusty, you’re right, you don’t need values and virtues for next quarter. You might not even need to sell the company next week. But if you intend to make a difference, use your company that you’ve been given as a platform for missionary work. If our work on Earth is to be as if it is in heaven and we view it as a Garden City of sorts to cultivate, then let’s use this moment. These people, these talents, these treasures, the team, the clients as a platform to bring out the best in them. So how do we bring out the best of them? Do we feel called as a steward? Do we come up with this or do we feel like God gave it to us for a season to steward? And if we’re stewarding lives, either a team members or clients in some small way, we need to be intentional. And that’s the word to think about. How are we stewarding them? To what direction? To what aspirational ideas? To what big picture mission are we challenging and pushing and raising each other’s sights to hit so good people? I want to be like have big term, long term big picture views. And then every day they’re working to get there. So never too late to start.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, that’s excellent. That’s excellent. I hope our audience is listening and taking this to heart.

William Norvell: I would love for you to go back. You talked a little bit about, you know, what happened to the company. Maybe give us a little more details then really want to focus in on you as the leader. How did it affect you personally, psychologically? How did you fight through that? Who came around? You just give us a little sense of how all of that went in your life over the last 18 months.

Chris Carneal: Wow. You’re going deep. That’s the type of question my wife would ask. Tell me how you feel. It always takes me a few minutes to get my heart around that question. I answer with my head, answering with my you know, I am an optimist. I’m as optimistic as any person you’ll ever meet. I even spin things positive when they shouldn’t be spun positively. I could just I see the best in things. But as the spring and then summer started to wear on and realizing this thing that I created God and me and a lot of amazing people, there’s a very good chance that it does not exist by the time the year is over. And if any founder entrepreneurs hear this, I call Booster, my nineteen year old son. We celebrate Booster’s birthday in our family, not just to work and my kids think of Booster’s their older brother, because it’s personal. I’ve spent more time with him than anybody. So seeing Booster on his deathbed and I don’t want to overly dramatic size up, but something you created a company that really represents people, the flourishing of other people. There’s a chance this comes to an end. You know, we’re going to run out of money. We’re burning one hundred thousand a day. We trim that from one thirty. We eventually then trimmed down to sixty. But at some point you can’t trim too much more if you’re going to have anything coming out of it. So there was the moment I talked about a little bit earlier. Let me go in a little more emotional depth of it where my wife said and she’s the key. Any entrepreneur out there with a great wife, a wife listening, shout out to all the and not just wives, spouses, husbands, spouses of entrepreneurs. You bear a great weight, but you are one of the many reasons we can make it through. So the Lord and Lindy are the two answers to your question on the short end. My wife is an Enneagram nine and she is deep and thoughtful and steady and peaceful and the opposite of what I was in that moment. So she said we got to get out of town. So we went to western North Carolina just to sit in the greenery in the mountains, plains. We go off and we went to climb a mountain white side mountain in Highlands, North Carolina, and my prayer was, God, give me a vision, because I just I cannot see what’s next. I’m out of options. My playbook is empty. I can’t open up the market and I’m running out of cash and my clients won’t respond. And what do I do? I’ve done everything I I’m giving speeches to the company literally every week. Total transparency, ask any question. I mean, we’re like 18 weeks in. We go up to the top of this mountain where we go off and we see this beautiful view. And literally it’s the foggiest I’ve ever seen it. I mean, I’m praying for clarity and I can’t see the hand in front of my face. My wife took a picture of me staring at it. We prayed and she just said, you know, how do you feel right now? I’m like, I’m sad, but I’m still in fired up on in the arena. Let’s go kick some tail mode. And I just I had to pause for a moment and at the time, four months. And she said, where do you see yourself right now? And I said, I see myself in the middle of this storm and I’m holding this boat with my hands. And it’s the booster boat. It’s got hundreds of people in it and I’m running out of energy. I can’t hold it any longer. It’s the middle of a hurricane. So I started crying. I’m drowning. I feel like I’m drowning. There’s nothing I can do. Feel I’m going to let my people down, let my clients down. And she said, that’s the problem. You’re not holding the boat. The truth is, God is holding the boat. You are in the boat. And at that moment, I knew that in my head, but that was it, that was the moment I just broke down and realized that’s it. This is it’s God’s story. He’s the captain of the ship. He built the ship. It’s bad theology and will be for me to think that’s too much responsibility. That’s not for me to bear. I am in the boat and he’s holding it. And that was just the moment I needed. And my wife is who I needed to just kind of break me. So at that moment, hey, my hands are open. I didn’t create it. I hope we come out of this. But if we lose it all, very real possibility. You know, I’ll have a story to tell you the way we’re going to do the right thing and glorify God. We’re going to treat people right. But God’s in control. I don’t think I would have had that truth hit my heart if I hadn’t lived it in that moment. No, I meant we were praying for five million or even five year survival. That was it. We’re out of business if we don’t have five million revenue hoping for 50. Once upon a time, we ended up with 15. So we call that the miracle, the fall. So, you know, once your expectations are set to zero zero zero, not where they should have been once upon a time, I’m like, wow, this is great. Look, we have cash clients and culture. And I remember nineteen years ago we had none. And the buckets of cash, Klein and culture, that’s it. How can we pray for favor in those buckets and how can we work to that end and cultivate favor in those three areas? And the Lord bless us to get to the fall, have a way better follow than we thought. And right now the spring is double what the fall was. And we’re looking to have our best school year yet next school year.

William Norvell: Chris, thank you for sharing that visual. I think it’s something that probably whether it’s a boat or whatever the visual most entrepreneurs have had, they know that feeling of it all being on their shoulders. I’m interested if you had any practical applications. So you come down from that mountain, right? This is a very biblical story. You come down from that mountain, you have a realization, God has shown you that he’s carrying it for you. How did that change the way you lead? How did that change the way you managed and some of the decisions you made then but also, I would imagine are still making today?

Chris Carneal: Oh, yeah. You know, I never liked hearing hey, you got some control issues that that’s not control. That’s leadership. I care a lot. I want excellence. So it’s one thing to not care enough and just to delegate too much maybe. But there’s no doubt the posture of my heart to match the posture of my hands, which is my hands are open, the Lord gives and takes away. So decisions I used to make or have to make or meetings I had to be part of, at least at our size. Different sizes of organizations, of course, determine this. But I just I trusted my team that went through it with me. Your question earlier. You know, I did not go through it alone. I think there is a myth. It’s lonely. At the top is a myth. It does not have to be that way. I never felt alone with my heavenly father, with my spouse, with my top team. There was Steven, my business partner that was by my side the entire time. Total rock complemented. Perfect. I mean, we this is again, God’s favor. We didn’t lose one member of our senior leadership team or any of our twenty four GMs in the field. And we prioritized if we can get through this and keep our best talent that we spent decades now putting in every city and major market, then we’ve got a shot. So a shout out to them. My best friends were closer than ever. I mean, you find out who your true friends are who’s texting me on a Friday night. Chris, you’re I’m a miner praying for you. I mean, Chase showing up with ice cream on a Friday night. Hey, man, we love you back. We just pray for you for five minutes. They knew it. They got it. You know, at the same time, it was just a crazy year in my life. I had perspective. One of my best friends, Reed, who went to college and played college baseball with got diagnosed with leukemia. The week after covid, I mean, literally face time me from the hospital and said, the doctor told me, I have 48 hours to live. It’s covered. It just started. My wife can’t visit me. This might be it. And I said, how are you? He said, well, my body’s dying, but my soul is good. And the song that he was listening to that became our company mantra Greatest Thy Faithfulness, Strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow. I’ve concluded every email and call for the past nine months with strength for today and hope for tomorrow. That’s what we need as entrepreneurs, as leaders, as fathers and husbands and wives strength. That’s why I pray God give me strength for today and give me hope for tomorrow. At the same time, our general manager of Atlanta, the same month at his best friend, has leukemia. Let me finish that story, by the way, by a miracle pill and modern science, this is read played in the NBA. I mean, he still is the best athlete I know and he’s going to live a long and healthy life. But it was a rough few days. My general manager of Atlanta, Jonathan Daughter, got diagnosed with cancer a few months prior and actually passed away later that spring. So to have a very close GM lose his daughter and a best friend get diagnosed with cancer, it just put in perspective. My company is struggling, but now look at all these other battles around us, so the empathy, compassion and depth of emotion in my own life, if anything, God used it just to bring out the fact that everyone is going through a struggle. Thank you, Lord, for making me aware of it to a greater degree so I can do something in some way to to help and serve.

William Norvell: Thank you for sharing that story with us. And unfortunately, we’re going to have to come to a close here on this episode. But I got a good feeling we’re going to bring you back maybe during the school season and get some updates on what’s going on out there. What do we love to do at the end? Chris, if you wouldn’t mind blessing our audience. We love trying to see how God’s word can transcend between our guests and our listeners and wherever they may be, wherever they may be listening, whenever they may be listening. And we just get to hear some amazing stories. And we’d love to ask you, you know, we’re in scripture. Does God have you during this season? Could be today, could be on that drive this morning. Could be something you’ve been meditating on for a while. Just but invite you to share that with us, if you would mind.

Chris Carneal: Yeah, thanks, William. So Reed is one of the guys my Bible study we plan on every Friday morning for about three years. We probably meet three out of every four Fridays for breakfast, either around someone’s firepit or at a restaurant. And we said, you know why there’s so many books, so many leadership stuff. Let’s actually just go through the Bible. Just the Bible. Let’s just go New Testament, Matthew, to Revelation. So we’re currently in it. We’ve been in this now for three years, the epistles during the pandemic. I mean, it’s just amazing. Just one chapter at a time, one chapter. We got set. We read it every day and then we come together. We just read through it, discuss, pray over it. And we’re in Hebrews. And this past Friday, the verse I read many times to provoke or stimulate others on towards work or love and good deeds, love and work, to provoke, to stimulate others on. I say, guys, I feel like we encourage each other towards love and good deeds. But this is a whole different meaning here to provoke, to stimulate, to push, to challenge each other towards love and good deeds. So being neighbors and literally just a couple of days ago we said, hey, we’ve got to let’s just take our friendship to the next level. We’ve been friends. And then we started a study. But what does it look like for us to challenge each other, to love and good deeds? We have to know each other really well. We need to know what our days look like. Let’s not just encourage. That’s good. That starts it. But let’s let’s provoke. Let’s push let’s stimulate one another on towards love and good deeds.

Founder and CEP | Booster Enterprises

Chris Carneal is the founder and CEP of Booster Enterprises and its flagship school-funding program, the Boosterthon Fun Run.

Chris was born and raised in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. He later attended Samford University in Birmingham, Alabama, where he played baseball. During college he started his first company, All Sports Tutoring, a company directed toward teaching students valuable character and leadership lessons.

In 2002, Chris sold All Sports Tutoring and launched his newest endeavor, an innovative fitness fundraiser for schools called the Boosterthon Fun Run. He designed it as an alternative to the product sales that most elementary schools use to meet budget shortfalls. After several years of success, Chris decided to relocate Boosterthon’s home office to Atlanta, Georgia.

Today, Booster employs more than 300 team members in 25 markets around the country and more than 1,200 schools partner with the Boosterthon team to meet their funding goals. The Boosterthon also boasts one of the most innovative character education programs in the nation with more than 800,000 students participating. To date, Booster has raised schools more than $100 million to improve education.

Chris and his wife, Lyndie, live in Johns Creek, Georgia, with their four children.

LINKS

PODCASTS FOR THE FAITH DRIVEN ENTREPRENEUR

In addition to being one of the co-authors of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur book, Chip Ingram is one of those people that we can’t seem to have on this podcast enough. 
If you’ve followed along for a while, you’ve no doubt heard him before, but today, he’s going to join us and share why he’s excited about the Faith Driven Entrepreneur book AND what his latest book, titled Yes! You Really Can Change has to say for every entrepreneur out there.

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Chip Ingram: For an entrepreneur, especially when you can get out of I don’t have to prove anything and I don’t have to impress anyone except I’m going by faith, do what God shows me. Is that a challenge? Yes, but it is awesome and liberating.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast, we have one of our favorites, maybe our favorite guest, at least if you determine by frequency on the show. So you know that we value Chip as a friend, as a cocreator, as a pastor, as a leader, and just been a great encouragement to others who spent time with us on the podcast and on our conferences. He is a very widely distributed radio host and author, and we have him now in his beautiful studios in downtown San Jose. Chip, welcome back.

Chip Ingram: Henry, it is great to see you. And it’s always a thrill to rub shoulders with fellow entrepreneurs and the people that honestly change the world. And it’s challenging. And I’m just excited to get to spend some time with you and the team.

Henry Kaestner: Well, thank you and thank you all. So here’s an opportunity. I’ve never done this before. This is something that should give us a chance to do more frequently than I. And you’ll know why here in a second, because we’re going to talk about his upcoming book. But Chip and I, together with JD Greer, have come out with a book, are coming out with a book called The Faith Driven Entrepreneur. And Chip Ingram may not know this yet, but Lecrae is writing our forward, which is exciting and cool. And for our listeners who haven’t ordered their copy, why should they why should a Faith Driven Entrepreneur care about what you have to say? What I have to say, what J.D. has to say about being a Faith Driven Entrepreneur, isn’t it just as simple as just kind of like, you know, I should go to church and I should probably pray and then I’ve got a business to run. I need to get out there and just kind of execute and and, you know, Lord willing, I’ll be profitable and I’ll be able to give money to everybody’s ministry. Why would you consider reading a book on the topic?

Chip Ingram: Well, because I think what you just stated is probably how a lot of people think. And I don’t think that is even remotely what God wants or thinks. The biggest takeaway from this book is I’ve read your chapters, Mine and Jades is real integration of being a man or woman of God and being a cutting edge successful entrepreneur without compromise is possible. It’s positive and it’s powerful and honest. Entrepreneurs know that integrating your faith authentically all the time from the inside out and I don’t mean just in work, but relates to personal life, family, even beyond integrity. That’s a challenge. And I think you really wrestle those things to the ground and give people some real help in that.

Henry Kaestner: Well, thank you, really. Of course, the operating pronoun there is we and so you’ve got chapters on stewardship, faithful and willful, and what pastors and entrepreneurs have in common. What are some takeaways that people can look forward to reading about with that?

Chip Ingram: You know, we’ve had lots of conversations. In fact, we had one like twenty our conversation when we did international trip together, we got there and got back. And it was very interesting.

Henry Kaestner: We did a day trip to Manila, didn’t we?

Chip Ingram: Yes, we did. That will be marked as one of the unique experiences in my life to fly to Manila, be on the ground for eight hours and fly back. But I think for high energy active entrepreneurs, the challenge and this is true of pastors that have an entrepreneurial spirit as well. It’s what’s my part and what’s God’s part? I mean, we talk about you’re a steward, but OK, I’m supposed to rest and trust in God and his wisdom, not strive, not be a workaholic, not feel this unbelievable pressure to make it happen. And yet I’m not to be passive. How do you do that? That’s what I think we address in this book. I think in an understandable way. I think it’s foggy and vague and try and entrepreneurs hit it and miss it. And we just go sort of we zoom out of balance one direction only the pendulum to zoom out of balance in the other direction. And I think this book will really help entrepreneurs in that to discern that, to realize, you know, I don’t have to keep telling those around me. You know, once we get through this big launch, once we get through this, once we do this, once we do that, then things are going to change, which is the lie that we tell ourselves and those that love us. It is possible to be at rest, to have a peaceful heart, to take risk, to be very engaged in intense at times, and also to know when to say no and not feel like the world depends on me. And that’s as much or more an art as it is a science. And I think you and JD speak well to that. And I gave it my best shot as well.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, it was a very good shot. I’m very grateful. It’s a real treat for me. So as much as I’m semi tempted to talk more about some of the issues that we unpack there, I’m also a little uncomfortable about the self promotion. But I feel much better about talking about a book that you’re coming out with that I think is really important. And it’s called Yes, You Can Really Change. Talk to us about it. What’s in the book? What’s it about? What’s the reason for writing it?

Chip Ingram: Well, it is about life change. I mean, we are made entrepreneurs know this more than anyone else. The status quo makes us crazy. I would say the status quo. I don’t want to be irreverent. It makes God crazy. We were made to change. His goal is to make us more and more like his son. And so this book is it’s really about how change happens. My experience after many years as a pastor rubbing shoulders with, you know, business leaders, CEOs, is there’s this once the external change is like, OK, the big morals or maybe my language or, you know, I basically tell the truth in business deals. There’s those internal things that often get stuck greed, lust, resentment, anger, unresolved conflict, comparing yourself with others. God has an agenda and a way to transform us from the inside out. And my experience is most Christians don’t know what that looks like. Most Christians are trying very hard to be a good person and involved in some good religious activities and some spiritual disciplines. But when you peel all that away, there’s some things that God longs to change and they’re really stuck. They really don’t know how that works.

Henry Kaestner: So when people read it and they’re feeling stuck and they want to get out of being stuck, what’s it take away that you want the readers to get at? And just you hope that changes in their lives afterwards? The one thing, again, just the takeaway and not in a way that shortchanges the very important of unpacking how you get there that you’re able to do in the book. But give us take takeaway, please.

Chip Ingram: The fundamental takeaway is verse one of the reasons for its grasping how deeply you’re loved, who you really are and who you are, and then walking in a manner that is worthy of Christ. It’s spiritual maturity. It’s becoming like Christ in your speech, your thoughts, your actions, your business. And here’s a make a fine distinction. Not working hard to look like you have good speech, good action. You know, I wrote my journal, I’d like to say it was twenty years ago, but it was about a year and a half ago and it was one of those defining honest moments with God in a time of repentance, actually. And I remember writing, Father, I realize at times I spend more energy trying to look humble and more energy trying to look loving than I actually spend being humble and being loving. And you know, that part of our DNA, if you’re an entrepreneur, it’s make it happen. And if you want to make it happen, you are always tempted or most of us to make the ends justify the means. And I think what I really long for people to see is living out of the overflow of your relationship with Christ that allows you to be at peace, that brings freedom and honestly causes you to do things in ways that people shake their head and say, I didn’t think you could be that kind of Christian and be successful in business. You’re breaking a lot of the rules here that you really believe in this Jesus that you talk about in this kingdom agenda that he has and that his upside down values. You know what? They don’t make a lot of sense to me. You know, if you’re an unbeliever. That I am. I am. And that was the goal. Let your light so shine before men, right. That they could see your good deeds, that the evidence and how we actually live, how our business is run, how we treat our employees, how we respond to a crisis, what do we do when there is failure? How do we treat people who failed? The take away is doing that the way Jesus would do it if he lived inside your body. And if you’re a follower of Jesus, that’s the reality, Jesus lives inside your body, you’re his temple. And my dream is that people would learn just how to do that progressively, not perfectly, until we get to heaven and make a huge difference for God’s kingdom.

Speaker 3: Amen. I mean, when you say that I wish you had a podcast just recently on that talked about the difference between being and doing right and how so many entrepreneurs get caught up in the doing art and reminded me of I was recently studying Deuteronomy eight and you know, God talks about how he took the Israeli 30 years so that they would learn humility. And I just it struck me it’s like he wasn’t concerned with whether they were going to build this thing or build this tower if they were going to. He just wanted them to learn humility. And I just think it’s so profound that that’s how much God cares about our hearts and who we are. And I think it pairs well with something I’ve heard you talk about before that I want to let you have some time on is what it means to live. I think the close cousin to humility are what allows humility to happen is grace, right. And understanding God’s grace. And those are just like a beautiful paradox to live together. And I’d love for you to tell us what does it mean to live from God’s approval as opposed to living for his approval and specifically for an entrepreneur, Deuteronomy? I imagine there are people like know I’m supposed to be doing, doing, doing. And God’s like, no, just sit and be humble and know who I am. But I want to talk about that a little bit.

Chip Ingram: Well, God is teaching them that he’s their father and he’s leading they’re called the children of Israel and he’s taking them on an agenda. And he’s our father. We’re taught to pray that and he’s taking us on an agenda. And when we grow up in our families and in our school systems, what we learn is when you have bad behavior, you get punished. And when you have good behavior, you get rewarded. And it’s really challenging after we know Christ personally to not fall back into that psychology and where we begin to think of God as sort of this ruler, this father, this judge, and in other words, man, I want to do good things because he’ll love me when I’m doing good. And boy, if I ever mess up, then he doesn’t want to talk to me. He doesn’t care about me. He doesn’t love me. And so when you live for God’s approval, you are consciously or at least in my case, very unconsciously, you’re living out of transaction and performance. When I’m doing well, I feel good about me. You know, I’m reading the Bible and praying. I’m treating my employees. Well, you know, the margins are up. I’m making progress. Boy, when I failed, I blew up in that meeting. I’ve got unresolved anger, man. I just promised my wife the last three nights I’d be home and I haven’t made it to dinner a single time. And I’m uptight and in meetings and I feel like, well, I can’t talk to God now. You know, I’m I’m out of his favor. And by contrast, you know, this book is about Ephesians Chapter four and how life change actually occurs. But, you know, math goes like this. If there’s an officiants four, that means there’s a one, two and three and one, two and three are about being loved, redeemed, about having a father, about being sealed with the spirit. And at the very end of Chapter three, before he says anything about what we’re to do, Paul says, I BAM I need before the father. And he says, I’m praying now that God would grant to all believers the height and depth and length and breadth and note to love of Christ that surpasses understanding that he do supernatural work so that we could live out of. I’m already loved. I’m already accepted for an entrepreneur, especially when you can get out of. I don’t have to prove anything and I don’t have to impress anyone except I’m going to buy faith, do what God shows me. Is that a challenge? Yes, but it is awesome and liberating.

William Norvell: They meant a quote I heard one time. I don’t know where I picked up and set up. Grace can take you places that hustling can’t.

Chip Ingram: I’ve not heard that. I like that. It reminds me of a I think one of the greatest lines, especially for I think entrepreneurs, because we were activators and, you know, achievers and Dallas. Willard says the greatest gift you will ever give God or any other person on the earth is not what you do, but who you become. And having sort of that entrepreneurial gene on the one hand, but my focus has been on, you know, building churches and ministries, I can say something that a lot of entrepreneurs can’t. I’ve buried a lot of people. I mean, I’ve done lots and lots and lots and lots of funerals after 38 years as a pastor. And I have sat with those little cheese sandwiches afterwards when you’re at the home. I just did a funeral of a very close friend last Thursday. And no one ever talks about the company they built, no one ever talks about. Wow, what a cool watch they had, where they vacationed, how many homes they had, what their startup was worth, what venture capital firm got behind him. You know what awards they won. The only thing that people that really care about talk about after you’re gone, when they sit around and they both laugh and tell stories and remember you is they talk about the quality of their relationship with you and the kind of person that you were. And I think that’s why God so often he gives us challenging commands and they often feel restrictive. But he just so knows what will be best for us or just drive, drive, drive to produce, produce, produce, achieve, achieve, achieve. A lot of that is in this big hole in our hearts that somehow when we go public, somehow when the startup really gets launched, somehow when I get funded, somehow when I’m written up in form, somehow you just keep filling in it. Then I’m a somebody. And those of you that have already been through this somehow and have been written up in Forbes or the startup work or you own a company, I know part of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur journey is to kind of reach back and say to some younger entrepreneurs, it’s a lie. Don’t buy the lie. There’s more to life than whatever you think the big success is. So, you know, my heart in this book is to help that average man, that average woman go on an internal journey where that gets so solidified that they can actually live out of the grace of God and not out of this pounding performance that we just default to.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, that’s great. You know, to that point, you actually write that evangelical Christianity has developed a culture in which no one’s really surprised. When someone prays to receive Christ, then they just continue on in the same lifestyle. Right. With minimal change. Why do we think that is? I mean, how do we get to that point? And I think you’re uniquely qualified to maybe help us understand how do we challenge that trend?

Chip Ingram: Yeah, I’m really, really tempted to quote many, many Bible passages. And then I love to read philosophy and history. And I’m reading a lot about the last 100 years or so in America and in trends. But I’m going to skip all that and give you three very practical reasons. But they’re kind of rooted. No. One is a marriage occurred between the American dream and the gospel, and they got so intertwined that we got confused about what the gospel is and the American dream. And so part of our desire to get the gospel to people, we want to identify with the culture. And so this idea of being a consumer, being upwardly mobile, little by little by little, not just in the extreme prosperity areas, but in good Bible teaching churches, there came to be this sense that Jesus really came to Earth to make my life successful, a great marriage, wonderful kids, upwardly mobile, great education. And when he doesn’t kind of give me this great life, well, I’m pretty disappointed on him. And if he didn’t, you know, do his part of the bargain, I don’t know if I’m going to do mine. The second is that biblical illiteracy, once you remove the truth and then there’s relative truth and then there’s a pounding culture. A lot of people don’t know what the Bible says. I mean, I’ve been to very good Bible or in the churches and had a bunch of young professionals, all in their 20s, all very bright, all at a church that you would all know, a pastor that I know really, really wonderful. And for about 12 weeks, they all sat around my table in Atlanta and my wife fed all of them. And I did a Bible study for about 12 weeks. And I mean, it wasn’t three weeks. And some of them were living together, blatant morality. And literally it wasn’t like there was no sense of shame. It was you think this is wrong? And we would go to the scriptures and wow, you know, I didn’t know that was there. So I think that’s the second part. And then I think the third, which is pretty obvious, the cultural pressures. We had a sense where in the 50s changed in the 60s, rapidly changing in 70, the 80s. But the Judeo-Christian ethic tell the truth. Some certain aspects of morality, the culture supported the gospel view of life that’s completely changed. And with that, then what you find is to believe that marriage is between a man or woman, for instance, to believe that there is absolute truth. You’re on the outside looking in. And so I think that cultural pressure has caused a lot of people who, you know, would consider themselves Christian, go to church a couple of times a month, intellectually at least. Believe that Jesus is God, say the right things that doesn’t get transferred into how they actually live their life. But I think the difference is it’s not with the cognizant awareness that my life is really off. I’m really out of line with God. I think there’s a pretty strong deception that, hey, I believe in God. I’m trying to be a good person. And I go to church now and then. And I think we’ve redefined Christianity is, you know, be a little religious and try to be a little bit nicer person and have your morals, you know, five percent better than the next guy.

Rusty Rueff: Is that also what you because you talk about passive faith. Yeah. So is that what you’re trying to say there? And I mean, there are some dangers in passive faith, right?

Chip Ingram: Oh, it’s the most dangerous place in all the universe to be is deceived by definition. When you’re deceived, you don’t know it. The average Christian few statistics and I’ll try and wrap this into a cogent thought. The average committed believer goes to church one point six times a month is in the Bible less than two times a week. And then if you can imagine, even regularly, one to two hours, a couple of times a month to strengthen your faith and maybe reading the Bible once a week, maybe even getting together once a month and talking about spiritual things. Imagine the other one hundred and sixty eight hours of every week divided by all the bombardment of culture, movies, Netflix, social media. And it’s an avalanche of untruth in many cases that literally is crushing people’s soul. But when I feel like when I look around and say, you know, the people that I know are Christians, you know, they go once, maybe twice a month and I go to the mountains once a week. This you got to be with the kids in the traveling team. You know, we’ve made lots of ways where we look around. And the new standard is how is everyone else doing instead of what does God say? And if you’re not in the scriptures, you don’t know what God says. And there’s this movement. I don’t mean this critically. I mean this with compassion. In Bible teaching many evangelical churches, there’s a compromising of some very clear biblical moral standards and Christian institutions that are sort of affirming, you know what, I’m not sure Jesus was all that serious about this. You know, no sex before marriage. And, you know, and so what happens is the teaching even gets compromised. And so we have a generation of people who are in a pew. All the research says about eight out of ten people who would claim to be followers of Jesus. Their life is marginally or no different than their unbelieving counterparts. And it’s two sides. It’s scary because of the consequences. But I want to push the other side. It’s so sad because you’re missing out on so much. I mean, when God says do not be conformed any longer, like obedient children instead first Peter one, he says, but live a holy life because he’s holy. You’re called to be holy be transformed by the renewing of your mind. The intent and the heart’s desire was that people would experience the good, acceptable and perfect will of God wants us to have great relationships. He wants us to be at peace. And passive faith doesn’t deliver that.

William Norvell: All right. Yep. I’m going to I’m going to try to let you have some time to speak to this level of doers. So we’ve got you know, our audience is entrepreneurs. So I’m going to go out on a limb and say, no matter what you say, when people hear, you know, you need to be holier. And when people hear those statistics, they’re going to say, OK, I know how to do this. I need to get the Bible seven days a week. I need to get in church three point nine times a month, maybe even four point six, if that’s possible. That’s a long month, but five Sundays, right? That’s where my mind goes. I’ll share myself. Right. I’m like, gosh, I’m in. So so I need to go memorize Psalm twenty three tomorrow morning and I need to do this and I do that. I just go into that. And I’ve seen I know you write in the book that, you know, spiritual transformation is not the result of trying harder to be holy or do better. I hear that. I say amen to that. I don’t know how to do it. Could you give me and maybe some of our other listeners, some. How do I do that? It’s truth, but I receive it and can act on it.

Rusty Rueff: He’s asking, does God have copies?

Chip Ingram: Yeah, yes and no.

William Norvell: OK, that’s the new that’s the paradox is through it,

Chip Ingram: there is always going to be a challenge and a tension between our being and our doing. At the risk of being Bible teacher, let me speak to an entrepreneur. You always start with the end in mind. You have this picture of what you want to see happen. That’s how God works. So let me, in my mind, walk you through a very quick overview. Ephesians Chapter four, because if you don’t understand the flow, you’ll just jump. Into like what you just said, well, I just memorize more, I’ll do more, I’ll go to church more. At the core of life change is understanding identity. It’s all about identity, it’s not about performance gaining, impressing, it is you were in darkness, you are now in light. You were a son of darkness. You’re now the son of light. You’ve been sealed. You’ve been paid for your valuable, your wanted. Your future is secure. Now, I want you to have your beliefs or your lifestyle to be reflected in your behavior. And so the first place you go, contrary to what we do in most churches and I’ve been guilty of this is the first place we tend to go is read the Bible, pray, go to church more, etc.. Where the Bible goes is a command walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, and then listen with all humility, gentleness and patience, bearing with one another the very first place genuine life change happens in an environment just like that little green worm becomes a butterfly in the environment of a cocoon, genuine, deep live change where you’re doing flows out of your being. It happens in a level of relationships that many of us never have experienced. So the first step is, OK, I’m a brand new person. I have to be in close connection with other very genuine other believers. And that first place is my family. So with all humility, I’m going to grow by putting the needs of my wife and my children. If I’m married or my roommate ahead of myself, I can’t do that. Good. Now ask me for help. Well, then I’m going to do that with all gentleness. That means letting go of my rights. That means I’m going to do it. Well, I can’t do that. Good. You can’t do that. I’m going to help you ask me to help you to to use the power that you have instead of using people to use it to serve others. And then they’re going to make you a little bit crazy. And so you have to be patient with them. I don’t have that in me. In other words, what happens is you’re in this close proximity of relationships. The first command and how to walk is these. And then he goes bearing up with them and talks about this unity. And so what I want everyone to hear is the American individualistic sort of me, God, my Bible, our work really hard, I can teach myself. That is an impossible to change. It happens in the cocoon of authentic, deep relationships. Most entrepreneurs don’t have that. In fact, what you guys are doing with the small groups are critical. The second thing is the power isn’t your will versus seven through ten. I just covered verses one through six. Seven to ten is what Christ accomplished in between Friday when he died and Sunday morning when he rose and he defeated Death Sin Satan and declared it in the lower parts of the earth. And so he wants us to understand you’ve been given spiritual gifts, but the evidence, the reminder of those gifts are this. It’s supernatural. It’s I’ve given it to you. I beat death. I beat the power of sin. I took the penalty. And this giftedness, these talents, what I’ve given you, I want you to use those as a steward rather than this is my toolbox to make me great. And then he goes on to say an eleven to sixteen. I’m going to put some people in your life to help you get where you can’t go on your own. Apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, teachers for the work of the ministry. Why? So until we all achieve the fullness of Christ, that’s the goal. And then he says, if you really want to know whether you’re changing or not, he says, then we’re not tossed like children here and there. By every wind of doctrine, we speak the truth and love to one another, and we learn to participate to find out where we fit doctrinal stability. You know, the scriptures speaking the truth in love and then finding your part where you’re connected and loving others. And so what I want people to know is that’s just the runway. And then verse 17 to 24 is going to teach you your personal responsibility. Once you sort of are in that environment, it says, OK, put off the old. It’s like taking off dirty clothes. I used to be on porn. I used to drink too much. I used to womanize. Stop it. Renew your mind. This is what God says I am going to memorize. Here’s some doing. I’m going to memorize scripture. I’m going to put good things in my mind, and then I’m going to put on these activities and then what he does. And verses twenty five to thirty two, he’s going to say you can’t just try hard to do those. You have to go into training and he’ll take five specific areas that I walk people through that are strategic, going to training around integrity, go into training around work, go into training around your emotions, go into training around your attitudes. And I talk about how to take it off, renew your mind, put it on. So it’s the whole chapter. And for people to understand it’s a journey, it’s a process. It can’t be done alone. It has already been accomplished. And this is that phrase, and you’ll hate it, but it’s true, it’s appropriating what you already have. The Christian life is letting Jesus live his life through you, not you busting your rear end, I’ll say that on this one in order to somehow step up and be that good Christian entrepreneur that, you know, your high integrity, you got a great marriage, you’re being a great dad, you’re growing a good company, and inside your soul is crushed and there’s envy inside and there’s fear and there’s anxiety that is not God’s plan for us. Sounds like you got a sermon instead of a discussion. Sorry about that.

William Norvell: So I was just going to say, that’s a you know, those old school things used to rip them off. It’s like a five minute sermon, James. I was like just gave us a sermon. Jamira It was a service jam. We’re just going to get a print that Amen

Henry Kaestner: appropriating what you already have. A guy called me up seven or eight years ago and he said, listen, I think I’ve got a word from the Lord for you. And I’m like, OK, go with. And he said, you know what? My sense is that you’re really good giver. And I feel pretty good about myself, I said, but my sense is also that you’re really bad receiver and like, Oh my goodness, I felt good for about two seconds there. And then I think that entrepreneurs tend to be doers rather than because we tend to be givers rather than receivers appropriating what we already have and letting that sit in. Someone gave us you can’t change. You can’t really think and expect to change aside from being bandaids or any type of change in your actions will be temporary if you haven’t really just really received.

Chip Ingram: Yeah, I think you’re right. In fact, you know, the number one entrepreneur in the church is Peter. I mean, Jesus didn’t you know, sometimes we downplay yes. They weren’t the most educated guys, but they had a fishing business, you know. And what was his number one challenge? Lord, don’t wash my feet. And I think my time with God has so changed from did I read my Bible, how long do I have to pray? How many verses of my memorizing and how am I negotiating all of that to. I just want to be with you. I would like to hear what you want to say. I’m glad that you want to see me. I’m glad that you’re kind. I’m glad your understanding is infinite. Like this morning, I woke up extraordinarily early for me and I laid there for a while thinking it’s got to get at least to the four before I’m going to get out of bed. And and I just had

Henry Kaestner: seven thirty this year and this was seven thirty three. You want to wait for it?

Chip Ingram: Yeah, it was kind of three thirty eight. Goodness. And you know, I’m glad to wake up whenever the Lord wants me to get up, but as I lay there, it was just my mind. He was all the kindness, the grace, the good things. And I just sensed it was like the Lord just wanted to be with me. Let’s get up together. And I made a cup of coffee, went down, sat on the floor of my office, lit a candle, lean back. And then I got my journal out. I just I started writing thank you. And I got into like five pages. And, you know, I didn’t read the whole Bible a whole lot. And but what’s changed is I’m receiving I just I don’t think God’s surprise that we’re needy. I don’t think God’s got his arms crossed and has a little, you know, like, OK, only two stars on the refrigerator, on the big refrigerator in the heaven for you today. And you only prayed for seven point eight minutes. And I think here’s the key. Do you love me? Am I most precious, you treasure me is your ambition to please me, and do you mess it up every day? And do you sincerely come and say, you know, Lord, I did this. This was just yesterday. I had to text two people in my office and apologize. Something came up and I could feel myself getting a little ramped up. I said, no, hey, here’s the deal. No, those are the deadlines. And I went off a little bit and, you know, their eyes kind of got a little bit big. And in my defense, I, of course, didn’t mean too much by it. But I realized was it was like that old flesh cropping up that, no, we’re going to hold that publisher accountable. They said they’re going to do this and blah, blah, blah. And it was with a tone of voice. And, you know, so we joked about it, you know, and then I drove out and I was in my car, went to go work out. And Holy Spirit said, you’re joking about it, but joking about it doesn’t cover it up. GIPP That was the old you. That was they need to make this happen. They need to live up to this. You’re going to make it happen. That’s displeasing. That doesn’t make me happy. You need to apologize to the people in your office. Of course, then you have this like maybe tomorrow, you know, Holy Spirit says, no, you need to address that right now. And they were gracious, but it was interesting. The piece left, you know, it says, let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts to which you called into one body and be thankful the piece just left. And the moment I apologize to both of them, ask them to forgive me. It was just like that’s what we’re talking about, that when we say, how do you change? That’s what we’re talking about. We’re not talking about you got it all together and you never blow up. You never I think it’s being authentic in your relationship with the Lord and responding to how he leads you. That’s a good word. Henry receiver. It’s good. I’m not very good at receiving either. Maybe we should receive with one another,

Rusty Rueff: so, Chip, you know, you understand entrepreneurs as well, if not better than any pastor that I’ve run into. So let’s say we’ve got a listener who’s committed to this transformation. Right. And I don’t want to turn this into doing. But they are asking themselves the question, you know, are there elements of the climate around me, right. As an entrepreneur that if I could just maybe change or shift or think about them differently, you know, it would help support me in the real transformation that I want to have happen in my life, you know, talk to our entrepreneurs about those elements of a climate.

Chip Ingram: OK, I’m going to talk about the climate and then let’s dispel something, because we’re unconsciously, not explicitly, but we’re implicitly applying. You either should be doing or being. No, no, no. What we’re really saying is you’re doing needs to flow from your being. That’s a fundamental difference. It’s let’s face it, if you don’t do anything, you don’t have a company. You know, if you don’t do anything, you’ll never change. But that doing can be I’m going to prove myself. I have to make it happen filled with anxiety and fear and or it can flow out of a quiet center where the spirit of God is empowering you and you are collaborating with him. It’s not all God or it’s all me is together. But there is an environment. I like to I have an acronym for life that I have never met and I think the Bible teaches this. I think history teaches this. My little acronym that that acronym is not operating in your life. You will not change. And the acronym for Life is bio like, you know, bioethics or biology bio. And three things have to happen in any believers life. Number one, the B stands for before God. I believe you have to come before God daily. And by that I certainly mean a specific time that the reformers had this idea were like, yes, I meet with God in the morning first thing and then I’m praying. I’m living before the face of God all day. I’m praying in the car, meditating on scripture I’m in. In other words, I want to be before God. I’m living a life before God consciously and with some regiment of God’s word and prayer. And then I believe it’s important to come before God corporately. You know, the rhythm of Jesus was once a week and there is something to hearing the word of God preached. There’s something to being in a community of people and singing together and worshiping God that is transformational. The eye is for in community. And I don’t mean just in a small group. When I was a younger pastor, I used to say life change happens in small groups. And it’s true. I got into too many small groups where there wasn’t life change. You know, we were talking, you know, we read a verse, someone filled in a blank and hey, who do you think the forty Niners are going to take this quarterback or, you know, the women are over there going, hey, did you see that sale? And so and so, you know, and so in community is the kind of heart to heart, face to face, authentic, dependent and raw connection with one another. We’re the two strong edges of in community. Our number one, the real me can show up and the real you’s going to show up and you are going to love me and I’m going to love you enough that you can share your deepest hurts and struggles. That won’t shock me and that will go nowhere else. And this is a safe place to process this. And the other edge of that is that if you keep sharing the same struggles that are just sin and don’t do anything about it, or I see you drifting and doing some stuff that you know and I know are wrong, I’m going to love you enough to not in my mind go who am I to judge? And I’m going to get in your grill and I’ll sit outside your home and I’m going to tell you I love you so much. This says that we’re not playing games. I love you so much. I’m watching how you’re relating to your secretary. And that’s bad. The last time we were together, you know, I could tell, you know, you didn’t have a glass of wine after dinner. I could tell on the phone, I don’t know what you’re doing, but and when you have that, see, that’s genuine accountability and love, but that’s in community. That’s what Jesus had. And the third one, the O is for on mission and on mission means it’s two aspects. One is the moment you wake up, you’re a servant of the living God. So if you’re a husband, it’s what does my wife need? What am I kids need? What’s going on around here? I’m a servant leader. When I pull out of my driveway, here’s a neighborhood and I’m Christ ambassador when I get to work or where my startup is, the garage that we’re hanging out. And I’m going to serve when I go to church. It’s not like, you know, consumer, where can I make a difference? And then the on mission then primarily, as you discover, as you mature, this is my primary spiritual gift. These are my talents. And I can be best used by taking 80 percent of my service orientation around what I do best, what God uniquely made me to do. I call it my teachings to calling and so be I owe. And what it does for me, it’s like this is for life. Well, what life? This is the life of Christ being produced in me, because, B, we always become like people we hang around. So I’m going to hang around with Jesus. I’m going to hang around with people who love him, and then I’m going to serve because there’s something about giving away giving it’ll be given unto you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over. As you give your life away, you discover it. So that’s the environment and those are dues. Those are flat out. And I do it when I feel like it and I do it when I don’t feel like it. That’s the other point. You guys got me off. But I think we’ve got this idea that if I don’t really feel like serving or loving or reading the Bible right now, I don’t want to be inauthentic. That’s a bunch of garbage. Doing what you don’t want to do or feel like doing is probably one of the greatest evidences of love ever. Jesus did not emotionally want to die for you, OK? He he didn’t go to the garden godfather. We’ve got this all planned out. This is going to be awesome. You know, it’s going to be pretty tough on me. It was like emotionally, I don’t want to do it. If there’s any plan B, it’s choosing to do the spirit that produces discipline. Discipline is a spirit produced ability to do what you don’t feel like doing and doing what needs to be done when it needs to get done. And I think when I do acts like that for my wife or for God or for others, I think I might be more loyal and more loving than ever before because I sure didn’t feel like doing it. I was a little bit of a long explanation that helps count that sermonette.

William Norvell: Number two, double surman jam you got. You got to serve James.

Chip Ingram: I can’t I’m starting to feel the Jones here.

William Norvell: I know. I feel like we got to get second. Our guests like our get you to a gym, one or the other. We got we got two scoops there.

Rusty Rueff: All of a sudden we’re big scoop. There it is.

William Norvell: I got a baby killer is killing it. I just can’t think of anything better for an entrepreneur to I mean, the way you beautifully articulated that. I mean, I just there’s so many things you just have to do out of love for your company, out of love for your vision, out of love for your employees, out of love for the investors you’ve promised. You know, I would imagine any listener here is one hopefully going to go pick up your book and to not going to look at Ephesians for quite the same way again,

Chip Ingram: in my mind’s eye, could be crazy. But I had this sense of what we’ve said and how I might be thinking about what I need to do. And I just want to say one thing. This can’t be done alone. It just I mean, the level of intensity, the discipline, the encouragement, the failure that you’re going to have, every command in the New Testament is in the second person, plural, this Christian life, it’s Christ living his life through you. But it’s not hard. It’s impossible. And we can’t do it alone. My number one thing for those listening would be who’s a brother? If you’re a man or who’s a sister, who’s someone that has the kind of walk with God and you have the kind of relationship that you might say, you know, man, I was listen, this podcast Faith Driven Entrepreneur and I got to have at least one other person in my life that wants to do life this way. Yes. We want to build a great company and yes, we want to have great families, but it’s got to flow out of a deep, abiding relationship with God. I need help. I need help doing that. I just wanted to encourage our listeners with that, because those of us that want to make something happen, I don’t usually wait around for someone. I just get going. And I think this is one you need to get going. But, boy, you need to get going with someone.

William Norvell: I love it. OK, I know. My last question now, I’m going to ask you, Jeff, what is your favorite, maybe not favorite the wrong word, but what is one of your favorite partnership stories in the Bible where you say that is a partnership someone should go read about to be encouraged to find a partner for their journey to partnerships?

Chip Ingram: Come to my mind, I think I love Jonathan and David. David would not be David without Jonathan. And not only humility of saying, hey, you know, rightfully being this king, that’s my deal. But I recognize God in his hand on your life. But there’s this classic time when David literally was going down the tubes and the circumstances, you know, it would be like all your investors in one day said we’re not going to invest. The bank calls your note and your top three employees quit. That was where David was. And it says Jonathan went and encouraged him and God. And I think the other partnership is Barnabus and Saul. If you read acts very carefully, Barnabus really is the leader. I mean, he’s the head man, but he sees a need that someone else is better at filling. And he goes and gets Paul because he knows Paul’s real gift with the Gentiles. And then they do these tours together. And you read the Texas Barnabus and Paul Barnabus of Paul Bond with Ron Paul. And then over time, it’s Paul and Barnabas. And it’s that humility. Barnabas, even the kind of convictions that he’s an encourager. He recognizes his strengths. And he says, you know, second journey, we need to take Mark. And Paul says, you know, that threatens the ministry now comes too important. And I think they were both right. So Paul says if you want to keep being encouraged, you’re you go ahead and take Mark. This guy’s got potential. Titus, you come with me. They double the ministry. Years later, Paul would write, send Mark and the parchments, especially the parchments, because Mark is of great value in service to me. Barnabus didn’t give up on him. So I think the kind of partnerships where, you know, their seasons, their specific roles, there’s genuine humility. The goal is the kingdom. It’s not, you know, who does what. It’s about fulfilling what God wants. Those are the ones that throw my heart.