— by Tom McGehee

There is a popular idea in today’s world that organizations, specifically nonprofits and ministries, need to shift from being an institution to becoming a movement. It sounds great. It conjures up images of greater impact, rapid growth, and increased ownership and innovation. This idea is fostered by increasingly connected virtual interaction options and is supported by various networks that are arising.

However, as great as this sounds, very few organizations have been able to actually make this change. We believe this is because they fail to recognize the totality in this type of shift—that this is not about adding a new product or service or about re-organizing or re-branding. This shift requires a fundamental change in the essence of an organization. It is about whole scale cultural change—change that is both internal, how the organization behaves, and external, how the organization is perceived and the value it creates.

As the new Co-Executive Directors of the Halftime Institute, Jim Stollberg and I are in the process of making this type of change to a well-known, successful, twenty-five-year-old global ministry. The purpose for this change is that at its essence, Halftime is a movement.

Halftime began when Bob Buford wrote his book by the same name. The book alone has sold more than one million copies worldwide, has been translated into several languages, and—being commonly passed along among friends and colleagues—has impacted countless individuals all over the world, many of whom never participated in a Halftime program or ever crossed paths with us. Bob Buford even said one time to one of our global partners, “I started out to writing a book about my own personal experience hoping it could help others. But then, like ‘good Americans’ we wanted to make an organization out of it.” Alas, over the years, this is just what we did.

Our desire is to build upon the organizational strengths we possess in order to re-create an even greater global movement. In this paper, I want to highlight four key concepts that are helping us make this change a reality.

4 Key Concepts for Movement Shift

1. Work inside out, not outside in.

When organizations seek to improve, they often start at the edges. They develop new products or services, expand capabilities by replicating existing models, shut down underperforming offerings, etc. In a shift as profound as the one we are discussing, you must start at the center. You must be willing to question not just how you do things but what you do and why you do it.

In his book, Good to Great and the Social Sectors, Jim Collins references a concept he calls “The Hedgehog.” The hedgehog is the essence of who you are and what you do. For social sector organizations like Halftime, the hedgehog is at the intersection of three circles: What you are deeply passionate about, what you can be the best in the world at, and what best drives your resource (or economic) engine.

At Halftime, we are passionate about helping high-capacity leaders find and live out their Ephesians 2:10 calling. We are world-class at helping people live lives that are both successful and significant. We do that by providing programs, coaching, and making connections to come alongside men and women on their journeys through the abundant lives God has called them to live.

However, over the years, we gradually shifted focus on what drives our resource engine to the point that we primarily focused on our signature program—The Fellows Program—as if it were our hedgehog. Growth became about increasing the number of people in the program or replicating the program in various locales around the globe, particularly in the U.S. The more we focused on our programs, the more pragmatic we became. We even changed our name to Halftime Institute and took on a more academic tone. We became known as The University for Your Second Half, a world-class program you attended, paid tuition for, and graduated from at the completion of a process.

Eventually, we thought of ourselves as a “bounded-set” rather than a “centered-set” organization. A bounded-set organization defines itself by its boundaries. A bounded-set organization says, “We operate a certain way with a certain set of people; therefore, other people and other ways of interacting are outside our boundaries.” When a company grows with this type of model, it typically employs a franchise method. It holds ruthlessly to the specific model developed and guards operations and quality to ensure new operations behave exactly like all other operations. Over the years, Halftime attempted to develop a franchise model for growth. But this goes against the key understanding that Halftime is a platform, not a program. Bob Buford was fond of saying that, “Our fruit grows on other people’s trees.” This is movement thinking at its best, and we needed to embrace it not just for our clients but also for ourselves.

In contrast, centered-set thinking focuses on a very clear understanding of who you are at your core (your hedgehog). Holding tightly to this allows unlimited options for operations if you don’t stray from your core identity. When Jim and I assumed leadership of Halftime, we started day one with this mantra: Question everything. That included answering the question: What is the core of Halftime?

2. Question everything.

Questioning everything does not mean you have to change everything. But it does mean that you are willing to investigate things in a manner that allows you to widen your perception beyond your assumptions and to accept ideas and observations from others who have different perspectives. When you allow yourself to look beyond results to evaluate not only how you do what you do (process) but also who does what you do (structure) and, finally, why you do what you do (culture), this can result in big changes. By going through this process at Halftime, we identified necessary shifts, changes, and subtle tweaks in all three areas of process, structure, and culture. Over time, we believe these actions will make all the difference—case in point, our hedgehog.

Halftime is most widely thought of as a program designed to help a person when he or she is facing the end of the “first half” (generally, career) and moving into the “second half.” After all, the subtitle of Bob’s book was “Moving from Success to Significance”—as if this were a one-time or one-step thing.

We recognize that God calls us to different things at different times. We know that, over time, our core (passions, strengths, and experiences), our capacity (time, resources, and spiritual overflow), and our context (what we do and how we do it) all change. God’s call on our lives is dynamic, not static. Over the years, Halftime has supported individuals through these changes. But, to embrace movement thinking, we need to make this value obvious to whom we serve and how we serve them.

When we would ask people, both inside and outside of the Halftime network, what our core was, the answer we most often received was, “to help high-capacity leaders find their Ephesians 2:10 calling.” When we asked how we did that, the answer always included at least two parts:

• Through programs and coaching.

• Through connecting those we serve with others to help them along the way.

As we considered this, it became clear that the real value Halftime provided was not just helping a person find his/her calling (today there are many programs that try to do that); rather, we are experts in helping a specific set of individuals both find and live out their callings.

The specific set of individuals we are called to serve is that of a “high-capacity leader.” As with everything, this definition faced rigorous questioning to determine what we really mean by that identifier. To some, Halftime is seen as a ministry focused only on wealthy individuals—specifically, individuals who have also reached a point in their lives where they can “stop working and start serving.”

In truth, more than 65% of those who participate in our programs remain in the workplace. As they gain clarity on their individual callings, many see opportunities to re-purpose their current platforms as the place for greatest impact. However, it is true that the majority of people we serve are very successful professionals. They are typically professionals, entrepreneurs, business owners, senior military officers, or in the “c-suite” of corporations. They acknowledge that God has blessed them with time, talent, and treasure but sense a “smoldering discontent”—that nagging, there’s got to be something more feeling—that drives their desire to do more to honor God with what He has given them.

Reminding ourselves of who we are called to serve, let us consider one of our greatest values—one that we all appreciated, but never officially recognized—which is our global community of like-minded, highly-capable Christian leaders and influencers that supports any person who joins us through a program, so that they don’t have to go it alone. Further, this community lasts far beyond the conclusion of a program. We have great content, models, and processes to help individuals get clear on their callings. But, even more, we have a network that is ready and willing to help them get free from their constraints and get going into a life of significant success. Leaders around the globe stand ready and willing to prayerfully support them in exploring their passions, testing ways to live out their callings, and walking alongside them on a journey of significance for many years to come.

Now, this may seem like merely semantics, but it, in fact, was some very heavy lifting. The result is a larger vision (a movement-oriented vision) that is expressed in how we now define our core:

To help high-capacity leaders find and live out their Ephesians 2:10 callings.

With that clarity, we could move to concept three.

3. Form follows function.

 This concept is certainly not new to anyone dealing with organization change. Many would say it’s “where the rubber meets the road.” That’s why, too often, organizations will jump to this before they are ready. This is the tangible stuff—boxes on organizational charts, changes in process flows and policies… the tactics. And it’s easy to see the change and to measure results in this phase, so it’s natural to want to gravitate here. But, unless you put in the time and effort to address the first two concepts thoroughly, you will make changes through the lens of your past organizational constructs, rather than with a movement-oriented perspective. You will be putting “new wine in old wine skins.” (Luke 5:36-39)

We are currently implementing many of these changes, utilizing a concept that we recommend to every individual we serve: low-cost probes. It is the idea of making a short-term commitment to an effort to try it and see if it is truly what God is leading you to do before you jump all the way in. As we address changes at Halftime, we are using the same approach. Let me highlight three examples:

1. A process change. This refers to what we offer to our clients and how we source our clients. As we now see our programs not as the goal but as the “on-ramp” to the journey with community, we are implementing multiple programs to reach a broader scope of our target client. Now, in addition to our signature Fellows Program in Dallas, we have added a program that we call Round Tables. These are local or virtual programs that cover much of the same content as the Fellows Program but in a different context. The Fellows Program delivers an exclusive, high-touch experience to a Cohort of individuals from around the world who come together several times a year across the U.S. Now, by offering a Round Table, we can work with individuals and with other organizations to bring value not only to our clients but also to our partners as well—meeting them where they are. By training individuals to become facilitators or coaches within their own circles of influence, or equipping organizations with customized resources, we can bring Halftime into a new culture or context.

2. A structure change. There is a difference between selling someone a program and inviting them to join you on a journey. Movements invite people into a community on a specific mission; institutions sell people their products or services. We know that Halftime, like any movement, grows more through person-to-person interaction than through fancy marketing campaigns. When an alum refers a person to one of our programs, the conversion rate is +70%. So, why do we continue mass email campaigns? Instead, let’s turn the “funnel” on its side. Rather than blasting broad marketing messages to build a big funnel with the idea that it will eventually trickle down to a handful of individuals who are really our clients and are ready to embark on this journey with us, let’s create more conversations with those we have already impacted. These conversations will do two things: create referrals and—even more importantly—allow us to continue to serve our network with excellence.

To do this, we created a new part of the organization focused completely on serving our global network. Today, Halftime has partners in the United States (Dallas, Charlotte, and Nashville), Europe, Africa, China, Singapore, Australia, and Canada. At one time, we called these expressions of Halftime “hubs” or “offices.” We have changed the language to that of partners—each unique yet aligned. Each is successful, but there is great opportunity for more collaboration. The creation of this entity will allow us to work together better to innovate, support, and leverage our global capabilities.

Additionally, this new initiative will focus on providing four core areas of value to our global network:

A connected community. To do so, we are building a database that will allow members to find, contact, and connect with Halftimers all over the world.

• Collaboration that can be channeled into local cohorts, affinity groups, and learning communities. This will create opportunities for collaboration among members to learn from one another, work together, and create even more impact.

• Continued equipping. We are developing new programs, workshops, and training to help people through their entire This includes helping them navigate relational topics like alignment with their spouses, integrating their families into their mission, and/or developing a legacy. We can support their continual spiritual development with such things as access to resources around spiritual disciplines and guided or solo silent retreats. We open new avenues for ministry by providing exposure to new and different ministries, non-profits, and supporting organizations.

• On-going coaching as we expand access to our global coaching network to help individuals with their personal growth.

3. A cultural change. It’s been said that “culture eats strategy for lunch.” Culture is a tricky thing to navigate, as it can be built—but it can’t be forced. One area that is of vital importance in culture change is language. At Halftime, we have moved away from corporate titles. Jim and I are Co-Executive Directors, not Co-CEOs. We refer to each other as “team members” and “partners,” instead of roles and titles. Another area we are addressing is in our brand name. (Remember? You must be able to question everything.) Currently, you can find us on the web at halftimeinstitute.org. You’ll notice that “Institute” is still in our name. Along with that term goes language of program admissions, tuition, and graduation. These descriptors served us for a time, but they certainly are not indicative of movement-type language.

Making these types of change are sure to be difficult for everyone. Team members are unclear of their new roles, clients may be confused about our offerings, and even with a clear, new vision, how to get there will entail trial and error. This brings us to our last concept.

4. Embrace liminality.

Liminality is defined as the space between no longer and not yet.

It is a place of complete uncertainty, at worst, and, at best, partial clarity. It is also a place of immense creativity and opportunity. The word comes from the idea of someone going through a rite of passage—leaving something behind and moving toward something new. You are not fully grounded in either, yet you still have elements of both.

In shifting from an institution to a movement, the space of liminality can be expansive. It may last several months—even years. For example, within the eight-person Halftime team in Dallas, we have removed the organizational constructs so that, for now, everyone reports directly to Jim and me. We want to be a team driven by intention, instead of silos of tasks and targets. The Halftime team consists of a remarkable group, and each gives one hundred percent to serving our clients. Part of the shift to a movement mindset means internalizing the same “best practices” we encourage with our clients—we want each of our team members to find and live out their own callings within our organization. We are giving them the space to explore, reflect, and perform while we reorganize. It’s not simple or clear, but if everyone embraces the liminality we are in, it can be energizing.

This is one of the biggest challenges in an organization actually becoming a movement: Fighting against the desire to put the change in the rearview and get back to results. As a CEO once told me, “I’m not happy with the results I’m getting but at least I know the results I’m getting and that’s good enough for me.”

At Halftime, we’ve had great results for over 25 years. But now, we are setting out to intentionally address our own “smoldering discontent.” We look to a future with even greater impact with those that we have the privilege of coming alongside to help in their journeys to serve God with everything that He has given them.

Article originally hosted and shared with permission by The Christian Economic Forum, a global network of leaders who join together to collaborate and introduce strategic ideas for the spread of God’s economic principles and the goodness of Jesus Christ. This article was from a collection of White Papers compiled for attendees of the CEF’s Global Event.

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Donald Miller‘s books—such as “Blue Like Jazz,” “A Million Miles in a Thousand Years,” and “Scary Close”—have spent more than a year on the New York Times Bestsellers list. Don has since gone from writing bestselling books to tapping into the power of story for businesses and individuals. Every year he helps more than 3,000 business leaders clarify their brand message. Listen in as he challenges entrepreneurs to lean into their own story, creatively develop and execute the story of their team, and understand the story of their customers so they can serve them with passion.

Episode Transcript

Rusty Rueff: Hey, everyone, it’s the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast you found us once again. Thanks for doing so. Donald Miller is the CEO of Story Brand, and every year helps thousands of business leaders clarify their brand message combined. Donald Books have spent more than a year on the New York Times bestseller list. Today, he is going to challenge entrepreneurs to lean into their own story, creatively, develop and execute the story of their team and understand the story of their customers so they can serve them with passion. Let’s listen in.

William Norvell: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We are so overjoyed today. We get to talk about a man who needs no introduction, but he’s going to get one anyway. You’ve already heard about who he is a little bit in the intro, but not a Miller who has influenced so many people through his writings for so long. I mean, gosh, I mean, 20, 25 years. How long have you been writing? I mean, it’s just amazing. About 25 years. That’s amazing. And we were just talking. Don and I have a mutual friend, David Price, who we will, for certain, make sure is listening. We met about five years ago. It was monumental in my life and a very small footnote in Don’s. But he claims to remember me slightly, which means a lot to me. You know, that goes a long way on the heart, and we are just so excited to have you for our audience. We’re so excited to help people hear about story, brand and business. It’s simple. I’m pretty sure a lot of people have before, but for those that haven’t, you’re in for a special treat. So, Don, welcome to the show.

Donald Miller: Yeah, it’s good to be with you.

William Norvell: And as we do just get started, as our audience knows, one of the things we love to do is just start at the beginning a little bit. Who are you? What brought you to where you are today and why do you continue to do what God’s called you to do?

Donald Miller: Well, in my heart? I’m a guy who just loves to write. I mean, that’s been my thing for a long time. And I started, of course, writing memoirs and in order to write good memoirs, I had to study story because I was very interested in keeping the reader interested in my books and turning the page. And so I discovered story is the best way to get somebody’s attention, and stories are very, very formulaic. I mean, you know, this happens, then this happens, then this happens on page thirty three. This happens on Page 42. This happens. So I learned all those formulas for writing stories, and we wrote a screenplay and released a movie and those kinds of things. Definitely amateur stuff. There are real moviemakers and better writers than me, but you know, I enjoyed studying that stuff by the time I wrote my seventh memoir. I didn’t have anything else to say. The publisher keeps coming back and saying, Hey, you know, these are sound pretty good. Can we get another memoir? And I just at one point just said nothing else has happened. I have nothing else to give you. I went camping and I can’t write a book about that. And so I was asked by a company called Accenture to create a project management framework that would unite a team and help them accomplish a mission. Using everything I knew about story and I did that, and it was the first time I’d ever taken a story based message into business. It did well with Accenture. Then I wrote a book saying, Look, you know, this also works when you’re thinking about your marketing or how you talk about your company, how you tell the story of your company, how you invite customers into a story. And I ended up writing a book about that, and I genuinely thought the book was going to sell moderately well, but I was just curious about it. I just wanted to write the book anyway, and it sold about 600000 copies and that launched my company called Story Brand, and we helped companies create very, very clear marketing messages. And so since then, my career has taken a pivot. I never, ever saw it coming. But I absolutely love it because, you know, I got to write seven memoirs, and I think every human being has this desire to be heard and have their story heard and to be known and to be listened to and be affirmed. And now I feel like I kind of got the Thanksgiving meal of that. And if I go the rest of my life and nobody ever hears any more of my story, I think I’m OK with that. I think other people sort of deserve to be heard. And so my career has taken this pivot where all these incredible entrepreneurs are trying to get the story of their story, their product, the story, their product story, their brand story, their team, the story of the customers and the transformation that they’re having using their product. And now I get to go in and sort of consult with those companies and help them figure out how to tell those stories. So for me, you know, at the root of it all, is this love for words, this love for story and the fact that I got to tell my own and now help others, I think, is an incredibly fulfilling journey.

William Norvell: That’s amazing. And you’ve got to do that in so many different ways. Of course, from blue like jazz to where you are today, could you go down a layer deeper and tell us, what is it about the power of story that’s so impactful? And in your experience, why are people so connected to that form of learning?

Donald Miller: Your story is powerful because it asks. Questions that we want answers to. That’s why you pay attention to a story when you’re sitting down to watch a movie somewhere early on in the movie, the storyteller, the director, the writer of the story, the actors who come together to tell the story, they’re going to positive question. And that question is going to be so interesting to you that you’re going to spend 90 minutes to two hours trying to find the answer to that question. The last two nights in a row, Betsy and my wife have sat down, you know, gone through Netflix, trying to find something to watch, and we found Sherlock Holmes, the Robert Downey Jr. version. We watched the first one two nights ago. Watch the second one last night. You know, the very beginning of those movies. It’s a whodunit. It’s a murder mystery. You’re wondering who the killer is, and you pay attention for two hours to find out one who the killer is and to. How do you do it? And that was the same story. Question for the first movie was the same as the second in the sequel. So, you know you got a positive story question, and that’s what keeps us interested in the story. The fascinating thing is, if you ask the question well enough, you will actually compel a human brain to pay attention for a long period of time, which is nearly impossible to do. About 30 percent of the time the human brain is daydreaming. We’re actually wandering off in our minds or meandering through the daisies. And when the brain daydreams, what’s actually happening is the brain is saying, there’s nothing in my environment right now that I can find that is going to help me stay alive or move ahead or get something that I want. So we’re going to turn the brain off. The brain burns about 800 calories a day processing information. And if it’s not processing information, that’s going to help it survive. It will just tune out. So almost nothing you can do about it. What’s fascinating about stories is it overrides that mechanism, and it’s the only thing known to man that overrides that mechanism. It will pay attention and burn very, very valuable calories, processing information that has nothing to do with its survival. So the reason I bring that up is because if you have a brand or if you’re a leader, if you’re a political leader and you’re running for office, we work with a lot of those. If you own a company and you’re trying to sell a product, you’ve got to get people’s attention and you are in a race and in the competition with your competitors to get that attention. So then you have to ask a question in this campaign that we’re running to sell this product or grow this company or get this person elected. What’s the story question? And if you can’t figure out very quickly what the story question is, neither can your customer and they’re going to start daydreaming. So for instance, for my company, I run a company called Story Brand and we say, Look, if you clarify your message, customers will engage. Well, you need customers to engage in order to stay in business. And so the question that you would ask yourself is, I wonder if I clarified my message, would my company grow? I wonder how I can clarify my message. I wonder what my message would be. There are enough story questions in there that compel an audience to pay attention to what we are doing. And that’s what we teach other people to do. For instance, recently I was working with a company called Calix, and Calix is a broadband service company. The owner of Calix sold his other company for $7 billion. So it’s a well-funded company, and they’re growing very, very quickly. And occasionally we get on. We do these strategy sessions where I just look at the documents that they’re releasing to the public, their websites, their sales letters, their proposals, and I just give them my thought about how they’re doing. I looked at a proposal that they were going to send out. This proposal was for a particular piece of hardware that they could sell to broadband companies. It was going to be multi-millions in the deal. And I said, Look, you know, this is a great proposal. It’s spelled out very clearly what you offer. But when I look at a proposal or a sales letter website or anything, I usually look for three colors red, yellow and green sentences that I want to highlight, read or sentences in which you’re talking about the customer’s problem. Sentences that you highlighted yellow are sentences in which you talk about your solution. The sentences that you highlight in green are sentences in which you are describing what the customer’s life will look like if they use your product. Every document that goes out should have red, yellow and green and in that order. And when I look at your document, all I see is yellow. There’s no red. You’re not talking about the customer’s problem. There’s no green. You’re not talking about what their life will look like. If they use your product, you’re just talking about your product. That’s not a story. If you want to invite customers into a story, I need to see red, yellow and green. So that’s a little sort of tip on how you should look at the communication that you’re sending out as a company. We see these mistakes all over the place. You know what, we study political campaigns a little bit. I don’t particularly associate with the Republican or Democratic Party. I think both of them quite honestly, are wasting a lot of taxpayer money just fighting with each other rather than actually being creative and bringing solutions to the table. And so I personally don’t love any of them, but I do watch the parties and watch the campaigns and sort of critique in my mind. And you know, you look at somebody like Jeb Bush and his campaign match or when he lost to Donald Trump in the tribe areas in the primaries was was. Jeb can fix it. OK, well, if Jeb can fix it, we’re being invited to watch a story about Jeb. We’re not being invited to participate. Jeb is the one who’s going to get the glory and he’s going to fix it. So if I invited you to a movie about a guy who was going to fix it, the first question you would ask is What’s it? And that means nobody’s going to go see that movie because they can’t figure out what the movie’s about. You know, Hillary Clinton, her campaign mantra when she lost to Donald Trump was, I’m with her. Well, I’m with her going where I’m with her trying to accomplish what? How is this going to help me survive? You know, it just wasn’t very interesting. So the words that we choose to describe what we’re doing are as important as what we’re doing. The words that we use to describe what product we sell are actually just as important as the product. Because if you get the product right, but the words wrong, the words are the bridge to the product. If you use the wrong words, there is no bridge that people can actually engage your product. That’s the importance of inviting people into a story. And the idea is your company, your leadership, whatever it is that you’re trying to advance in the world. You want to invite the customer, the voter, the stakeholder, into a story in which one of their problems is going to be solved. And so I’ll just give you a little formula to do that because I think that’s why you’re all listening. The formula to do that is start with the problem. When somebody asks what you do, don’t say, Well, here’s what to do. Say Well, you know how a lot of people struggle with, you know, how people get frustrated when you know how much it hurts to see people x start with a problem because the problem is actually the hook. Then once you start with the problem, now you can talk about your product. My product solves that problem. And then step three is so that people can live this way. People have this problem. So I created this product so that people could live this way. That’s a story. A hero has a problem, overcomes a challenge to make that problem go away and lives happily ever after. So if you use that formula in your sales letters and your keynote speeches, in your elevator pitches, on your websites and your lead generators on and on in your proposals, if you use that formula, you will find that people pay attention to you rather than ignore you. It really is the key to explosive growth.

William Norvell: Oh, that’s amazing, and thank you for walking through a bit of the story brand framework. I want to. We’re going to jump into that and say, I want to jump back, though, and give you the opportunity to tell us about your startup story. How did story brand? I mean, I heard how you made the transition from writing, but tell us about the company growth and how you grew the company and just your entrepreneurial journey a little bit.

Donald Miller: Yeah, there’s many aspects to my entrepreneurial journey. I mean, in a way, a writer who succeeds has to become a business person. They really have to manage a tiny staff, have to manage a schedule, they have to manage all those kind of things. So I’ve been doing that for a long time. You know, we have 30 employees now, and that’s a very different dynamic. It’s not a big company by any stretch, but I’m managing something much larger. You know, really, though, my entrepreneurial journey is just about consistently following curiosity. I was curious about story, and so I studied story. I was curious about how story could affect project management. And then I was curious about how story could affect marketing. And of course, that took off. And we just kept chasing curiosity. What are we curious about? And we would create curriculum and content based on our curiosity and the results that the products that we created would give to people. So, you know, that’s basically my entrepreneurial journey. I just kept chasing curiosity. I mean, I was pretty good at always figuring out what was sustainable, you know, how to make cash come into the company. And so I also chased that path to but for me, you know, nothing beats curiosity. And I was always curious about these things.

William Norvell: Well, that’s great. OK, so jumping back past the framework, which you kind of walk through a little bit with us, I’m curious for entrepreneurs listening because I’m guessing you could have a lot of fun with 100 pitch decks that we will not send you. But I’m sure, well, maybe, maybe we will. Who knows? You know, we’ll test it out later. Why is it? Why do brands make this mistake so often? Why do they put themselves in the shoes of the hero? Why do they only talk about their product? Why is that the normal way to think and why can’t they figure it out, right? Like, what are people missing and what are our entrepreneurs missing when they stop to think about selling this product? That, of course, they put so much time, energy and effort into, and they’re missing the story of how to sell it? What’s that disconnect?

Donald Miller: Well, I think the disconnect is natural. It comes from insecurity. You know, when we’re really insecure and we don’t believe that we have the authority to be in the room or be on stage. We talk about ourselves and we try to sell everybody on the fact that we are good enough to be here, valuable enough to be here. Those kinds of things. And, you know, people just smell it as weakness. When people are hurting or wounded, they talk about themselves when they’re strong and competent. They talk about others. And so what we look for in leadership and we look for and brands that are supposed to help us solve a problem. So we look for strength. A brand is just like a person. It has a personality. And when you think about the people that you like the most, the people that you like the most and click with the most actually aren’t the most successful people. You know, they’re actually the people who do a great job listening to the people who do a great job mirroring your emotions, restating what you just said in such a way that maybe you feel like they understood you and they heard you. That’s part one. And then part two is people who actually take whatever it is that you share with them and give you back some wisdom or some advice that you find helpful. Those are the people that we like the most, and those are the brands that we like the most. We really like two things when it comes to choosing leaders, choosing brands, choosing authority figures, choosing to give our trust to somebody who’s competent. We like two things. We like empathy. We like that people can understand our pain. Feel our pain. The best definition I’ve ever heard for empathy is shared pain. And literally, it’s when you share the pain that somebody else is feeling. And then part two after empathy is competency. It’s not good enough for a brand or a leader just to share our pain or understand our pain. They also need to be competent to help us out of it. They need to be able to say, Look, I’ve helped a thousand people deal with this and got most of them out, and I think I can get you out to. I don’t think you’re going to have to deal with this anymore. So it’s that one two punch of empathy. Fee and authority. That’s really what we’re looking for in a brand. What we tend to do a lot of is leave out all of the empathy. We don’t even think about the customer’s pain. We’re all so insecure about whether or not we belong here that whether or not we’re sure people should buy from us. We just go on and on about how great we are. And that’s a giant turnoff to most people.

William Norvell: Oh, that’s great. I can feel that in so many things that,

Donald Miller: yeah, we all do it, I wish I teach this stuff, but like every fifth time I pitch it, I find myself through the exact opposites. But there’s there’s grace.

William Norvell: That’s good. That’s good. They say, you know, the best things you learn is as you’re teaching them, right? So you’re going to be an expert in about 20 years that 20 percent is going to be down to about two minutes before you die.

Donald Miller: You’re going to get your head around this.

William Norvell: You’re going to nail it. You’re going to nail it. And the kingdom and the heaven will, you know, God will welcome you in and say, you can now teach this in heaven.

Donald Miller: There you go. Right.

William Norvell: So that’s fascinating on how that changes the pitch right of the product and how we shift that. How have you experience with the companies you work with? How does that change the company from the inside out? How does that change the people when people can get their story right as an organization? How does that change what happens inside?

Donald Miller: You know, it actually happened to us, even though we teach this stuff, you know, we have a great framework, but a company really works a lot like a person, you know, when it’s a fledgling new company. It works like a fledgling new person in the sense that all a baby really thinks about its survival. They think about food, they think about a little bit about play, they think about love and nurturing. You know, it really isn’t until like probably the 12th year of being a human being that that initial first thought enters the brain of. I wonder if I should get somebody else something for Christmas. Yeah, it’s like it takes. It literally takes that long. And I think companies are similar, and I think we should give ourselves a lot of grace in those first few years because you’re really just trying to make cash, you know, bringing cash to make payroll, you’re trying to keep cash flow going. You’re trying to sell things you don’t quite know. And then when we have sort of bad economic stability, a beautiful thing begins to happen in the life of the company. And that is most of the times you become as interested in building a community as you do in building a company. You become as interested in your team feeling nurtured and cared about so that they can nurture and care about customers. You begin to care about customers connecting with each other and connecting with your brand and a lot of that luxurious because you don’t have to think about the bottom line anymore that the company’s actually doing well. But interestingly, right when that transition begins to take place is usually the time when the company starts to see explosive growth, which tells us something tells us. So I wish we could have done this five years earlier, but sometimes that’s not possible. But you know, that’s the big difference that we see when we teach the story brand framework, because not only are we teaching a framework that’s going to bring in a lot more revenue. We’re also teaching a framework that says, think about what your customers are dealing with, think about their problems. Get your mind off yourself for a second to right this sales letter from the perspective of the person that you’re talking to. And really, there’s no other way to put it, except when you do that, you begin to open up your heart and you begin to practice more empathy. And that always changes us.

William Norvell: Hmm. Amen and Amen, amen a little bit around here is the esoteric Bible question guy. So every now and then I slip one in, so I’ve got to talk about I’ve got to get your perspective on Jesus using so many stories. Maybe just riff on that for a couple of minutes. Why? How did it work? How did it motivate people as you read through the scripture and you see you’ve spent so much of your life studying story, how why did Jesus use that method and how was it effective?

Donald Miller: Well, I think Jesus used story for the same reason so many of us who communicate use stories. And it’s because words actually fail. You cannot tell the truth with words because the truth is much bigger than words, and words are a really amazing tool to sort of point toward truth. But you’re not going to explain it. So when Jesus says, you know, the Kingdom of God is like a, you know, a mustard seed, I would hope that the Kingdom of God is not a master is quick because we’re not going to fit right? They’re very small. But here’s what he’s saying. He’s saying Look, your little bitty brain is never going to fully comprehend the bigness of what is actually true. You know, like G.K. Chesterton said, if you can get the truth of theology into your brain, your theology isn’t very big and your God is actually very, very small. So it’s pretty arrogant of us to think that we actually fully understand, you know, the universe that is Christian theology. All we can do is sort of point toward it with stories that’s really all we can do. You know, I’m in an interesting place right now in my life. Within about a week, my wife and I are going to have our first child. We’re expecting a daughter. And it’s been fun at forty nine years old. All of my mentors are now 20 years younger than me. They’re all like Don, hold the baby out. You know, these guys, it’s really a fun. It’s a fun season of life. And but you know, they’ll tell me things like a whole other compartment opens up in your heart. You’re going to experience a kind of love that you didn’t know existed. Nobody, nobody can actually explain it. Nobody now. Does that mean it doesn’t exist? No. I’m going to feel that in a week and then feel a lot of other things like no sleep and those kinds of things that they tell me about, you know, so all we can do is really tell stories and grunt with these weak words toward a truth. And one of the things that I think helps us understand one of the reasons I actually pray to Jesus is a man of faith is because he use storage. One of the reasons that Christian leaders who have all the answers are not interesting to me is because they’re quite naive. I’m sorry, you don’t actually have all the answers. There’s an enormous amount of mystery involved in this, not because there isn’t a truth out there, but because our brains are simply not able to comprehend it. One of the great metaphors that I’ve heard is, you know, right now my baby daughter, her name is Emeline. She’s inside of this womb and her brain understands probably warmth. It probably understands some nutrients when those come in through the umbilical cord vaguely hear some voices that may seem friendly. Has no comprehension of the unbelievably magical world she’s about to enter into a world that includes ladybugs crawling on leaves, a world that includes a little dog named June Carter that she’s going to meet and grow up with has no comprehension of any of that. And I think about the Kingdom of God and maybe the passing from this life is that. And so for us not to be excited and anticipate the bigness and mystery of what is to come and instead believe wrongly that we have it fully under wraps and we can answer every question I think is something that Jesus never tempted us with. He told Stories. The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. So I think that’s one of the reasons that I trust him. So much is he just told stories and said, You know, it’s kind of like this fully knowing our brains were absolutely not capable of understanding.

William Norvell: Hmm. Congratulations on everything. What an amazing story. Yeah, gosh, I will not. Our audience is tired of hearing about Liam and Louise, but I have a I have a three year old and a one year old and oh my god.

Donald Miller: I’m more than a lot. So you don’t hear s you look, you look rejuvenated about the world.

William Norvell: So don’t believe all this. You know, your life is going to change forever. It’s so awful. You never sleep again. No, it’s the greatest joy in the history of the world. I am so ecstatic for you, and I’m so, so excited to hear you’ve already named her as well. My wife and I have done that with all of our children before, and there’s something special we feel when we get to talk to them before we get to meet them, you know? Oh my gosh. We’re going to have you on to talk about that afterwards. There you go. That’s a guarantee. I want to hear the story of you holding her and welcoming her into this world. Yeah. So we do have to transition a little bit as we come to the next segment of our time here. I want to hear about business made simple. So we’ve talked about story brand as the organization and a lot of times, you know, people feel things. I mean, I think we’ve all been victim right of reading the book that quote on quote changed our life and then we do nothing with it, right? I read a great quote the other day that said, Be a book doer, not a book reader.

Donald Miller: I also said it

William Norvell: was so good. It was so good. It might have been you on Instagram. It doesn’t sound like it, but I did it. I don’t remember where I saw it, but I saw it somewhere. I was like, Oh, that that hits my soul, right? I I take in a lot of information. I don’t put all of it into action. And I think that’s a little bit of where you know, you’ve gone with business made simple and the coaching network a little bit. Could you tell our audience a little bit about that and how that works alongside story brand?

Donald Miller: Yeah. You know, Story Brand is a company and we grew it as a company and as we grew the company teaching a marketing and messaging framework we had to create in order to grow that company a framework on finances, we had to grow a framework on talent management. We had to grow a framework on management and execution. We had to grow a framework on sales. We had to grow a framework on cash flow. We had a growth framework on keeping overhead down. We had to create a lot of frameworks just to run our company. And because I’m a teacher at heart, I started turning around and teaching these frameworks to other businesses that were wanting to grow as well. And what everybody said to me was, Don, you’re really good at making a very complicated things simple and actionable, and I consider that a compliment. And so I wrote a book called Business Made Simple that just teaches you how to grow a business. And the truth is, I never went to college. I didn’t graduate from college. I hung out at Reed College in Portland, Oregon, for about three years, which studied humanities. You know, I didn’t study business, and I always had a sort of insecurity about that until I began to hire people with MBAs and degrees from Ivy League schools and realized, you know, they don’t know anything. I don’t know anything else. You know, the schools are teaching us how to read a white paper on trade with China in case we become chairman of the Fed. They’re not teaching us how to actually run a business. We’ve all had to figure that out, let’s be honest. And so I thought, Man, I really want to put it very simply, you know, how do you create a mission statement and guiding principles? How do you clarify your message? How do you create a marketing sales funnel? You know, how do you run a team? How do you get everybody united around a purpose? How do you check in with people once a week to make sure they’re doing their jobs? How do you write their job description? All the just kind of basic stuff that you need to actually grow a business? And I put it into a book it. Actually, it’s I think it’s 20 dollar book, and it comes with 60 videos that are free that you watch that teach you how to run a business. My goal was to create a better than Ivy League MBA education for twenty dollars. And I hope we’ve done that. A lot of the reviews have said we have, and it’s just everything I know, taking a company from $0 to sixteen and a half million in about five years. With a 64 percent profit margin and no debt, no venture capital, no loans from banks, we’ve been able to do that. And I think one of the reasons we’ve been able to do it is because I just didn’t learn to do it the wrong way and we figured out the right way. And so I wanted to pass that along. So we actually it was so successful that we created a mother company over story brand called Business Made Simple and Story Brand is the messaging and marketing arm of business made simple. And so that book is out there. You know, I also did it in microlearning. It’s a business education in microlearning and short daily reads with short five to 10 minute video that you can watch, and you just sort of figure out how to run a company by osmosis. And then the more you put it into action, the better your company does. I’m super, super proud of it. I grew up in a really poor home. Dad split when I was about two and mom and me and my sister stood in line for government cheese. She was a secretary her whole life, just to the last possible guy you would ever think would run a business and have it be successful. But you know, if I can do it, you can do it. And I just don’t think business should be a minister. I really don’t. I don’t think it’s actually all that hard. It’s not easy, but it’s not all that hard. If we just have some practical knowledge

William Norvell: and all, that’s amazing. That’s amazing. And there’s a book, you’ve got a podcast for those listeners who haven’t found you yet, you have a pretty active Instagram feed you’re reading in your house right now, which looks pretty fantastic, so you can find down a lot of places. I want to ask you what’s one of your favorite stories of one of the people that have gone through the business made simple program.

Donald Miller: Yeah, we hear every day somebody’s going through story, brand or business made simple who has doubled, tripled, quadrupled their revenue. I have a friend named West who was it was pretty risky for him to become one of our we call him story brand certified guides. They make sales funnels for people, but he turned down a job. Then it was a $27000 a year job. He turned it down and he became one of our story and certified guides and within three years was making just shy of seven figures. And you know, that’s a complete life change. Another woman named Amy Lacey runs a company called Cauliflower Foods, and she was $250000 in debt. And the company came to her and said, Look, you know, for twenty five thousand dollars a month. If you go get a loan or get, some investors will handle all your marketing. And she said, No, you know, let me get back to you. I’m going to go to this story brand thing and figure out how to clarify my message. She did that. She did not hire the firm. She just did it herself. And that was five years ago. Now she’s preparing to sell the company for $100 million. You know, you got to love it, and everybody listening to me knows what I’m talking about. It’s just a neat thing when your product works, you know, because let’s face it, we put it out there like, Oh man, I hope this work. It worked for my uncle. I hope it works for everybody else, and it’s pretty neat when it actually does. And so we collect those stories. We get them almost every day and they get funneled into a slack channel. And anytime anybody on staff needs some encouragement, they just go read What’s happening to our customers?

William Norvell: Well, that’s amazing. And fortunately, as we head to a close here, one of the questions we always ask at the end is we would love to ask basically where God’s word is coming alive to you, and we love that as a bridge between our guests and our listeners. And and that could be a passage you’ve meditated on your whole life. That’s still with you. It could be something you read this morning, right? Could be something you’re meditating on this season, but we just love to connect everything through God’s word at the end of our episodes here.

Donald Miller: You know, something that has guided my life for a really long time. I would say if I had a conversion experience, it was right out of high school. Even though I grew up in a church and was involved in the youth group, I had this really amazing encounter with God reading the book of James, and there was just something about the idea that faith without works is dead and worse than no faith at all. And coupled with another idea from the Book of James, you know, go into your prayer closet and pray in secret and don’t be one of the people who sort of publicly do things. Yeah, I understand it’s professional ministers and they need to pray in public in those kinds of things. But that was a big faith experience for me, where it just became a part of that. Acting on my faith rather than just believing it or talking about it was critical. And I’m so grateful to talk to a group of people who are people of faith because what I’ve found is over the years that if I didn’t talk about my faith, but I actually acted on it. And if I prayed about something but prayed in secret that God showed up, it was, I mean, I think the passage literally says, you know, those who pray in public get their reward in full. And what that means is everybody thinks they’re awesome and then that’s it. God doesn’t actually do anything. I mean, that may not be what it means. I don’t know. But I’ve just noticed that as my faith becomes more real and I do things and I act on it rather than talk about it, God works in pretty amazing ways. So to me, that idea, I think, is what’s governed at least the last 15 years of my life, and I feel like I’ve been richly rewarded for it.

William Norvell: That’s amazing. It is amazing when we take God’s word seriously and it works right. Turns out he said it for a reason. Well, what an amazing place to end. We can’t thank you enough for spending time with us and our audience in the last 30 seconds. Are there other places I didn’t name where people could find out more about you and business made simple and story brand? Are there other places where people can go to learn more about the work you’re doing?

Donald Miller: Yeah. All the work that we’re doing on my team is doing is it business made simple dot com and of course we’d love to. We’d love to hear from you. Do anything we can to help.

William Norvell: Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us.

Donald Miller: My pleasure.

— by Peter Greer

I unwrapped one of the most memorable gifts of my childhood on my twelfth birthday. At the time I knew nothing of the company that manufactured the Buck knife I held in my hands, but I knew from its weight and sheen that this was a high-quality, excellent product. Throughout my youth, that knife was my constant companion on many outdoor adventures, as I unknowingly continued in a very long and rich history of Buck knife aficionados.

The company that now employs over 300 individuals who manufacture upwards of five million knives annually began with the work of a bi-vocational pastor who pursued both ministry and knife-making “as working for the Lord” (Colossians 3:23). Pastor Hoyt Buck transitioned from knife-making hobbyist to professional during World War II, when the government called for donations for American soldiers. Hoyt knew he could make high-quality knives: He had been doing it since he was just 13 years old. He bought an anvil, grinder, and forge, and in his church basement, he crafted over 2,000 knives to donate.

With friends’ encouragement and prodding, Hoyt and his son, Al, purchased more equipment and began commercially producing knives. H.H. Buck & Son made about five knives a day through the 1940s. Today, Al’s son Chuck is the chairman of Buck Knives. Chuck is warm, generous, and eager to tell the story of how the company came to be. “In the early days, my dad did the handle work, and my grandpa did the blade work,” he reminisces. “Even when my grandpa was in the hospital, he still did the blade work from the hospital. Eventually, my grandpa figured my dad needed to learn how to make blades. My dad would go into the hospital every night until my grandpa was satisfied that he could make the blades just right.”

Hoyt Buck’s adherence to quality is still melded into the company he founded. Over 100 years after Hoyt made his first knife, the Buck family is still zealously committed to quality and to Christian principles.
Growing from a company that produced a handful of knives daily to over 10,000 daily—without losing the commitment to quality—is a testament to Hoyt, Al, and Chuck’s shared perspective on what it takes to run a company the right way. Because the Buck family holds such confidence in the quality of the craftsmanship, they personally guarantee every Buck knife for life. Accompanying the lifetime guarantee in the box is a simple message to the new knife-buyer from the Buck family: 

If this is your first Buck knife, “Welcome aboard.” You are now part of a very large family. We think of each one of our users as a member of the Buck Knives family. Now that you are family, you might want to know a little more about us. The fantastic growth of Buck Knives, Inc. was no accident. From the beginning, we were determined to make God the Senior Partner. In a crisis, the problem was turned over to Him, and He hasn’t failed to help us with the answer. Each knife must reflect the integrity of management. If sometimes we fail on our end, because we are human, we find it imperative to do our utmost to make it right. If any of you are troubled or perplexed and looking for answers, may we invite you to look to Him, for God loves you. Chuck Buck, Chairman/Owner of Buck Knives

“For God loved the world so much that He gave His only son; so that anyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.”—John 3:16

Customers buying Buck Knives hail from all corners of the world. From all faith backgrounds, tens of millions of people—from Shanghai to Moscow to San Antonio—own Buck Knives and have read this simple Gospel message. The Bucks believe that the quality of their craftsmanship is crucial. 

A substandard knife would undermine the message they include in the box. Propelled by their faith, Buck Knives is setting the standard for professional excellence. They understand the inherent link between the services they provide and the way people hear their message. They are focused on letting their “light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven” (Matthew 5:16). Light doesn’t shine when it comes packaged in an inferior product.

The words “poor quality” and “Christian” should never be used to describe the same organization. Substandard work runs contrary to God’s calling, even while excellent work—as Buck Knives can attest—can open doors to share the Gospel.

Martin Luther once wrote, “The Christian shoemaker does his Christian duty not by putting little crosses on the shoes but by making good shoes, because God is interested in good craftsmanship.” Just as Hoyt Buck was unwilling to etch the Buck name into a knife until it had reached his exacting standards of excellence, God doesn’t ask us to etch His name on our shoddy craftsmanship. Our faith demands we lead “best in class” organizations, regardless of what type of work we do.

——
Adapted from Mission Drift by Peter Greer and Chris Horst, with Anna Haggard. More info at peterkgreer.com/mission-drift.

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— by Justin Forman

We have three kids, 12, 9 and 7. And while Hollywood production shuttered this past year, one of our family’s favorite TV shows became Shark Tank reruns.

Conversations between soccer games and school drop-offs quickly turned into the playground of “what do I want to be when I grow up” entrepreneurial inspirations from the screen.

Growing up in a Christian home, I never had a good answer for that age old question. But whether at college parties or church small groups, I noticed that the outsized influence of how much you were respected was inherently tied to its answer.

Through a whirlwind, cross-cultural trip during my college years, God opened my eyes to see that my work could be an act of worship. An answer to that question finally started to form. Validated and encouraged, I ran across the stage and grabbed my diploma—alive with this newfound permission slip to integrate my faith and my work.

Years later, I found myself hosting a conference for thousands of pastors and business leaders. Standing backstage, I watched as one of our speakers went rogue.

The outline of his talk was intended to be a rally point of helping see our work as worship. But instead, it became a cautionary tale…

“See your work as worship. But don’t worship work.”

While that message may have landed with everyone sitting in the seats, it missed the person standing backstage.

For the next decade, we launched a new entrepreneurial venture, and it took off, serving millions around the world. I spent much of that time traveling, talking, and being the ambassador for the team. I was often asked to tell “our story.” Oftentimes, my response would include something about 30–40% year-over-year revenue growth and the millions of people “our team” was impacting.

It was a cool story to tell.

And while God always was in the film credits as the leading actor, over time I thought too highly of my supporting role.

As wonderful as my wife and family were, I was getting 10x the praise for my work. I wasn’t grounded, and with every reciting of the story, I began to tie my identity, worth, and self-respect into what I did.

The story of our success quickly became an idol.

Like most idols, they become an addiction. The fruits of mine were pride, false humility, misplaced identity, and burnout.

By the grace of God and the faithfulness of my family, He’s helped me see the rightful place He needed in my life. Through a painful but refreshing sabbatical season, God helped start a new adventure. He’s used that previous experience to give me better insight on what it means to encourage Faith Driven Entrepreneurs to balance this tension of embracing a “call to create” while being rooted in our identity in Christ.

As entrepreneurs, it’s too easy for what we do to become intertwined with who we are. So often, the business becomes the person and vice versa.

We all want to appear like we have it all together. As entrepreneurs, we want investors, employees, and customers to know that everything is under control. We can take care of everything. We can handle whatever comes our way.

The problem with this attitude is that it often ends with us putting up a front. And trying to manipulate the way others perceive us is a slippery slope because eventually all we have are these false frames that others see with no concept of our actual selves that lie within them. We can quickly become walking shells of humans with personalities we’ve merely created for ourselves.

Here’s the truth: We can’t do it alone, and even if we could, it’s not about us anyway. God wants our honest hearts, not the facades we put up for others, or the version of ourselves we’re most proud of. But to give Him that requires humility.

That’s the call. We can be entrepreneurs that realize that our own brokenness is an outstanding opportunity to share the reason for the hope that we have—it’s a chance to lead with a limp. We understand that sharing “why” we do what we do is effective leadership when done with gentleness and respect.

When I read Matthew 25, I always looked at the Parable of the Talents through a single lens. I slid into this hijacked definition of stewardship. I thought that generosity was only defined quantitatively. It was a % in your mind or an extra zero on a check.

I think we’re selling it short.

Everyone has something to share—especially entrepreneurs and investors.

We’ve blazed trails that climb the highest heights and plunge to the lowest depths. Often alone and fighting to survive, we make it through, with little time to comprehend what we’ve learned before the next plot twist.

But pour a cup of coffee (or something a little stronger), and the life lessons come in waves with endless refills. God gives us these adventures, and He leaves us with scars. And often, it’s the authentic stories of struggle—the “why” behind the limp—that leaves us hanging on the edge.

Nothing is more repulsive than the fake polish of a story that hides the truth. Nothing is more attractive than the soothing grace of the gospel piecing together our brokenness.

Call me crazy, but I wonder if this idea of leading in our brokenness is less optional than we think. What if Matthew 25 isn’t limited to our finances, but in fact, it’s our stories of grace that we’re called to steward?

Then it’s clear that burying them isn’t an option.

We’re called to pay it forward. We’re called to actively invest our stories into others as often as we do our finances.

In turn, I’m called to share where I made success an idol—where I turned the idea of work as worship into an excuse to worship work. I get to point at my scars and say, “This is where my limp comes from.”

So, as I look back on that season, what are the cautionary signs I ran past and things I want to do moving forward?

• Pronouns Matter – The small words in front of the bigger words are under indexed for their ability to convey our heart posture. When I think back to that season, I cringe at the times of saying “my team” or “our story.” They have the opportunity for us to show what is rightfully His and not ours. I don’t want to become some Jesus Juking Ninja. But I want to discover what it means to daily reinforce this idea that I’m simply a “cook in His kitchen”—that everything we do is His, and whenever someone asks to hear “our story” that it remains rightfully His.

• Don’t Excuse Idols – I heard a friend recently talk about his addiction to trading on Robinhood. The 24/7 access of crypto markets made investing an idol, stealing moments of affection for God. At the end of the day, scripture is clear. Just because it’s a business you started … or just because it’s going to pay for your kids’ college … it doesn’t change the equation. If it’s causing you to make less of Him, you can choose to cut it off, or let him do the pruning.

• Fire Escape – Any parent audibly or mentally goes through that exercise. If the house was on fire, you have a moment to get out, taking only what matters. Oftentimes, our time on this earth or time in this venture vanishes quicker than we think. Nobody drives to work thinking that his/her life could change at the next intersection. Nobody plans for life to come to a screeching halt. But oftentimes, it does. He calls us to something new. How can I live life knowing that the mission of any venture is so much bigger than me—that I’m simply called to serve for a season?

• Servant of One Master – Money has an inordinate influence on the life of an entrepreneur. We keep score with it, report on it, and borrow it to make ideas come to life. Scripture is clear: We have to choose whom we will serve. Just because you’re generous … doesn’t mean you don’t love money. Just because you see yourself as a steward of your business … doesn’t mean you don’t love money. Being generous can become an identity. For entrepreneurs, our greatest strength is our greatest weakness. Do we really have a handle on our identity?

• Pray Out Loud Before Battle – When the Old Testament kings went to battle without God’s blessing, it was disastrous. When I think of lost battles, I strangely think I saw more of them coming than I realize. When I know I’m not coming with the right intentions, I resist that vulnerability to pray out loud before battle. I keep those thoughts in the quiet, free from the accountability of my blind spots. But I don’t have to do that—I can pray out loud and invite God and friends in to examine my blind spots.

We’re all wounded. We all have a limp.

Mine is a story of being willful—of forcing my wants to take priority over God’s—and making good things an idol.

My hope is to lead with that limp, to let the Gospel shine brighter in my weakness.

Article originally hosted and shared with permission by The Christian Economic Forum, a global network of leaders who join together to collaborate and introduce strategic ideas for the spread of God’s economic principles and the goodness of Jesus Christ. This article was from a collection of White Papers compiled for attendees of the CEF’s Global Event.

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These are truly unprecedented times as war rages in Eastern Europe. We had the unique privilege to be joined by a member of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur community in Ukraine. Andrew Denysov, founder and CEO of TechVision Global, joins us on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Podcast to share with us his story, how entrepreneurs play a key role in times of turmoil, and how we as the body of Christ can stand strong in the face of evil and uncertainty.

Episode Transcript

Rusty Rueff: Welcome back, everyone to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. These are truly unprecedented times. The world fought together against a global pandemic just a few short months ago. Yet it would seem as though that bond of unity has evaporated as a war now rages on in Eastern Europe. Today, we have the unique privilege to be joined by a member of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur community in Ukraine. Andrew Denisov is the founder and CEO of Tech Vision Global, a US based software consulting and development company with development teams in Ukraine. He also runs an automotive import business importing cars from the United States into Ukraine. He serves as the managing leader and preacher of the local church in Lviv, and he is an active member and one of our global Faith Driven Entrepreneur groups and a Faith Driven Entrepreneur live watch party host. Andrew joins us today to share with us his story, how entrepreneurs play a key role in times of turmoil, and how we as the body of Christ can stand strong even in the face of evil and uncertainty. Let’s listen in.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We’ve never done this before. I say all the time that we’ve got a special edition and Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast, and I believe that every time I’ve said that, that is true. And yet this is even truer than it’s been in the past because this is the first time we’ve ever had an interview with somebody in the midst of a war who’s on the ground in Ukraine. A great friend of the movement, guy named Andrew Dennis off, who hosted an FDE watch party back last fall, who’s visited with Kimberly and I here at our house in California and who we consider to be a friend and just a great partner in the movement and somebody we’ve been thinking about and praying about and who’s with us live on fond. Before we bring Andrew in, I’m joined by my co-host William Norvell. William, good morning.

Rusty Rueff: Hey, good morning. Good morning. Yeah, it’s so great to have Andrew. And yeah, it’s kind of a special edition of trying to figure out what entrepreneurs can learn and here and how we could potentially help what God’s doing in your life and the Ukrainian people.

Henry Kaestner: So, Andrew, we’re going to get a bunch of things going to talk about your background, what you’re doing, what life is like when you’re not in the middle of war. But the question is, bring it on. All of our hearts right now is what’s it like there? I mean, we’ve never had an entrepreneur on the program that’s in the middle of a war zone and just give us an idea about what’s going on. And I know the last night we’re going to do this recording, but it was interrupted by an air raid, so we didn’t. What’s it like? What’s going on?

Andrew Denysov: Good morning, gentlemen, and I’m so honored and humbled to be invited to this podcast because I am a listener of this awesome resource that I use every time and looking for every to the U.S. So, so and on January 22nd, I turn to certify and I was never, never imagined how it could be in the world. Because every time I read a lot about the world in the books and stories and played video games by the worst but never felt under my skin was that. So today is the ninth day of the war. Sometimes we forget about the name of the day. So today’s Friday and probably the second Friday in my life, I forgot to say the magic phrase Happy Friday, you know, because it’s difficult to say that this is happy for us. And yeah, talking about it from epicenter of the war, you know, it’s kind of very mixed feelings and emotions and something that actually I have never felt in my life before. And every day, it’s something that you need to plan like. OK, so what’s new can be today? And like you just said Henry, that we’re actually supposed to record this episode yesterday, but we couldn’t because we plan our days like our days consist of two parts from morning to evening and from evening till morning. So day and night, and we have to listen to the news to understand what’s going on right now and what do we have planned tomorrow? So I’m actually in Ukraine right now, and I live in the awesome city called Slava al-Dabbagh, which is the western part of Ukraine, which is actually located like 38 40 miles from the border of Poland, which is NATO’s area, right? And basically, we’re far from the front line, but at the same time, we are in the country. That was where it is right now. Yeah, so it’s sad. And how’s that here? We’re in the war. We have lots of restrictions. For example, all Ukrainian males from within the age of 18 to 60 are not eligible to leave the country. Only women and children, for example. You know, my wife, Orla, she’s a very brave girl, and she said, I want to live the I want. I have seen it firsthand. Just, yeah,

Henry Kaestner: larger stories and more. I guess with what we have, maybe we went there, right? She was I have a loving hundred and forty pound Newfoundland dog who thought that only was a pretty thing he’d ever seen and decided that he was going to tackle her. And I will never forget where you learn a lot about somebody, his heart and character and their response within that, you know, two or three seconds of being knocked to the pavement. A man, she was so gracious that we were so poor and she’s meant she’s awesome.

Andrew Denysov: Yeah, that was a funny story. And we reckon the star is whether there are lots of smiles on their faces, you know? And yeah, so yeah, she’s very brave girl. And we were lucky to have two kids, six and nine, and she says that, Hey, I won’t go anywhere without you. She can do that any time. But OK, so we had as interpreters, we had negotiation before and almost every day, and we made a decision that if we feel, think and hear that the worst case scenario is coming, she will go, No, she will leave the country, right? What I mean, the worst case scenario? This is answering your question, Henry. So in we we are like more or less in peace right now. So no mystery and yet in the city. But it was in the region. No shelling occurred here in this city, but we said yet we said so far, but we hope it will never come right. So we’re doing right now. We’re focused on a few directions of every day. So first of all, we wake up every day and we pray that the prayer life like never before. We pray and think about Pray God for the peace in our hearts and minds because, like I said, lots of mixed feelings and thoughts right now. The second is where, you know, we’re texting to our dear ones. That’s always good. Call. Nice checking the emails and you’re so understanding what’s going on right now because, for example, how I found out about the war. It’s interesting story goes that on February twenty fourth, I try to wake up at like 6:30 a.m. and try to not use the cell phone when I sleep during the night, not check the cell phone. But last few weeks, I had to do that because of this like. Tension that we had in the air in the news, you know? Yeah, and I received lots of messages from my friends, from states because you guys really one to three steps in front of us going into the news you hear about what’s going on about the Russia conflict. And so there was just until that morning, your night that was just list of notifications, messages. But when I picked up the phone at five a.m., just woke up to drink of water, I realized that something happened. You know, she goes, I decided to check her Facebook and no sleep after that moment. So I saw the messages, lots of videos and messages that the war had started. So now we focused on that, you know, check the news about what happened for the past night because most of Shalane actually is going on right now during the night, for example, like you may read this morning that the biggest nuclear factory in Europe was under attack this night. And so now we have lots of news. Are they controlled by like troops, Russian troops or they’re controlled by Ukraine? And so no real news so far. We have lots of refugees. We have a huge stream of refugees from front line, just thousands of thousands every year. And we, as Christians, we have hearts to help them as a when we say I was going to say in. No, we donate lots of money to, you know, bring some, you know, like food, hygiene products, everything social, humanitarian help aid for them. So on, so on. Because I’m just,

Rusty Rueff: yeah, I want to pause there. Can you maybe walk us through a little bit of that? So, you know, for for people that obviously have not lived through something like what is happening in the eastern side, how our people move? Like when you say refugees like Coop, who’s coming, who’s allowed to leave, how are people maybe just explain the whole situation for the east, the West, your friends over there, maybe who you’ve talked to, what they’re going through, maybe take us into that a little bit more for those of us that can’t quite empathize with what that is.

Andrew Denysov: Of course. Well, thank you for this, because, you know, sorry, guys. Lots of information. We’re here for the last days, so people that are coming from Kiev, from Kharkiv, from those said Kiev is the capital of Ukraine and this is the main target, right? So the population of Kiev, for example, while like millions, five, four million people, so all they could do, they were just running from missiles, from troops. Those who could do that just pick up the backpack with some, I don’t know, like cell phone, they refuse some clothing and just jump to the car if they could or train the tech. So there are like normal good people that were planning their next days, you know, but now they left everything, just everything. We’re lucky that banking system still works in Ukraine. I mean, in those cities where everything okay, right now, electricity more or less, OK, that, but it changes every time, every day. So this is the type of people. So there are different. There are lots of them and they’re just, you know, try to survive. That’s it.

Henry Kaestner: So they get in the car and they head west and they show up and the Vive. Am I pronouncing that right anywhere close? That’s correct. The Vive, and they’re showing up. And are they showing up at churches? I guess they’re looking to friends first. Yeah. Tell us more.

Andrew Denysov: Yeah. So they try to find anyone, any contacts in the western part of Ukraine, west of Ukraine. Vive OK, let’s call it on the West. They know if they don’t know, they tried to call anyone and they are OK to find shelter anywhere. And I want to tell you, German, that, you know, we have a whole lot of sadness here, fear. But there’s one really positive thing that I noticed. Ukrainian nation Ukrainian people now are united like never before. Like never before. We’re focused on one thing the victory and bright future. To get this goal, we realized that we have to win. Because technically, we’re in the war would be in the last eight years. Now it’s a real war. So killing people, killing children, you know, sending missiles to hospitals. So that’s why we are united. And now anyone had to have connections to get it, to get people. Churches, schools, gyms, offices of the all companies we recombine to. We transformed to shelters, to hotels to gather people, give them food, give them places to sleep, rest, shower and help them with anything we can. The Partizan people of those strategies, they decided to leave the country to Poland, Hungary, Romania, Moldova like neighbor countries. But of course, again, only women and children eligible to do that. So we tried to motivate all males to stand up and fight for us with us. So that’s why some of the activities that we do right now, we support army anything they need. We ask our foreign friends to send us. I don’t even know that words in English, military words in English. You know, to besides the word weapon or something like that, you know, just to help. Yeah. So supplies the glass, right? Yeah. Any supplies, even clothing, military clothing, etc. So and we’re good with this. I mean, really, I feel like the world helps us, you know, especially the United States helps us with this humanitarian aid. We’re a good more or less here. But those front lines, they are in the terrible situation right now. Even if they have some money, they cannot purchase anything, anywhere. They’re, you know, stores destroyed, everything destroyed. So we organized columns and cars, big trucks of humanitarian aid with food just to get in there and give them just, you know, food. You mean so terrible pictures and videos. And they are real. They are real. Lots of my friends just came there and terrible stories. I mean, they were dream all their life boat house. And finally, they build. They purchased the house. They lived there for a year. And that’s.

Henry Kaestner: So these are friends, so tell us more about these are people that, you know, in Kiev, other entrepreneurs or business owners and also just I think that some number of us have gotten an understanding about where Ukraine is geographically. We know it’s nice to Belarus and it’s nice to to Russia. But give us a sense of kind of the size and scope. And then there’s some amount. And in the Ukraine around Kiev that are maybe Russian speaking and then some of them out there, Ukraine has been. Help us understand kind of the the general makeup of the country ethnically language wise, what the experiences of Ukrainian nationalism in Kiev, in the east versus the West help us understand some of that.

Andrew Denysov: This is a very good and deep question. I’ll try to be very short on this, but clear so historically, actually, Ukraine consists of Ukrainian and Russian speaking population, right? And western Ukraine, where I live, we strictly mostly speak in Ukrainian, but the center and especially the eastern part of Ukraine, they speak in Russian. So we don’t like the mix of people. You know, they they like in past they were Russians, but now move to Ukraine and vice versa. So every time we had like words and phrases like we’re brothers, country brothers, people right until February 24th, 2022, because brothers don’t kill each other. So talking about, for example, language landscape, we’re a very loyal and most of them are very loyal to the Russian. But it’s not about like language, it’s about like vision for the country. Right? So we want to build our country. Our vision, political and entrepreneurial vision is going to be very integrated with with Europe, with the states, you know, with Naito, with the European Union. But unfortunately, pro-Russians, they don’t want it. They know that the USSR still alive, but under the name of Russian Federation. So there’s just only one way for prosperity and for success, for bright future. So that’s why we every time have this like not head to head, but sometimes it hats, right? But this like tension, I would say right now it’s making it real right now. So are you with that? OK? Are you with a normal world or are you with aggressors? That’s it. Because, you know, taken from the interpreter perspective, I actually have a dream, you know, because like, we had a conversation, Henry, when it came to you, we were in an awesome barbecue and talking that, you know, young Ukrainian generation like mine. Or so we’d like to build the country with integrated with the world like, you know, creating technologies, you know, creating workplaces, help people and grow entrepreneurship. This is what actually we feel the real freedom, passion, energy. But unfortunately, you know, the Russian side like, OK, we want to control you. And this is not good. So Kiev is a capitalist Ukraine. It’s like, you know, half of the population is still speaking. The Russian half of the population speaks Ukrainian, but they mostly, you know, very pro-Ukrainian. But all the revolutions exactly happened there. Why? Because they know they are on the edge of two parts of Ukraine. So probably that’s why, because of I’m afraid to tell you this phrase, but they’ll tell in a few seconds. But I’ll tell you now that’s why we have this situation in the east of Ukraine, because a big part of it tribulation that wanted to stay with Russia.

Henry Kaestner: So there had been some level of internal rivalry between some folks that are in Ukraine proper, but speak Russian. That’s right. And then the Ukrainian population that speaks Ukrainian natively, that’s on the west side. How is that in your experience now that Kiev is really a dynamic city and you probably know it from Faith driven entrepreneurs and Kiev that are native Russian speakers? How are they processing this or are they welcoming it and thinking this is great going to be part of a greater Russia? And this is the motherland. And this is, you know, back in 1980 on the shores of the Jinapor River, this is where the Russian heartland was founded, and this is just kind of our manifest destiny. Or are your Russian speaking friends that are faith driven entrepreneurs in Kiev? Are they just a part? Help us to understand what that looks like. Yeah.

Andrew Denysov: Very good question, Henry. So I’ll give you the answer on the example of my business partner. So he’s from Crimea, the Crimea. He’s actually originally from Korea, his parents from Crimea. You know, this is actually pretty similar, been with Kiev. So he was speaking the Russian whole entire his life. He knew Ukraine, and because they had news in Ukraine and, you know, everything like in Ukrainian on their official, but they spoke Russian. So it’s very delicate edged between Russian Ukrainian language because there are lots of Russian speaking Ukrainians, but they support Ukraine. So here’s an example of that. He actually won in 2014. You know, Russia came to Crimea. They were trying to fight for like a year, but they realized that, OK, so we would just have to leave this place. So they moved to leave the city where they have never been before. They just jumped into two cars and moved here, and they started to learn Ukrainian. Sometimes, you know, when they’re in the family, they still speak in Russian. Sometimes you forget it like, OK, I need to speak to Ukraine or something like that. But you know, it’s not about now language. It was not about the language, but it was about the vision for the country. You know, that is fascinating.

Henry Kaestner: That’s helpful. What you’re saying right there is that, look, there is this concept of a vision about integration with the West. There’s as you said before, it’s kind of a hope and a future and that it’s not as much around linguistic barriers. It’s around what kind of future do we want to see? Do we want to see one integration in the West into technology, into the marketplace? Or do we want to kind of go back to the way things were when there is this global USSR type of thing? And that you’re saying that’s not necessarily completely just linguistic, it’s just OK, have a hopeful democracy and those that do not.

Rusty Rueff: And I don’t want to speak for 45 million people. But when you’ve lived there, do you feel like there’s an overwhelming one way or the other? You know, is the country split or is there? Hey, you know, 90 percent of people want to pursue one and 10 percent want to pursue the other. Just how how does that country, how does the country feel along that line? I hear that line. I’m curious, how do you do you do you have five friends and four agree one way and another agrees another way? You know, it’s kind of a political conversation. You know, we have these obviously in the states all the time where it’s like, Hey, I don’t I don’t think that’s the right path. I think that’s the right path. Right? How is that conversation? Go with your friend groups and your church and things like that?

Andrew Denysov: Well, you mean now or before February 24th?

Rusty Rueff: I’d be curious to hear both. Right? Yeah. Was it was it one way? And now this is totally switched it or yeah, I think because they’re both ten days, it’s crazy.

Andrew Denysov: Yeah, because now our life, our lives divided before and after February 24th. So before, I mean, we’re different. You know, we wrote for the different political groups, different, you know, candidates to presidents. And you know, we spoke different languages. And like I said, I can easily switch to Russian and for on my surname, actually my grandpa, he’s is from Belarus, by the way. And I have Belarussian roots, so even the ending of my surname. Oh, really, it’s very like from Russian. So that’s why I’m very open to that. But you know, this is a very good question. Well, because the language, the linguistic, you know, that difference is kind of one of the main trigger right now. One of the main trigger right now, especially when it comes to West Ukraine. And there were lots of rumors that, for example, Ukrainian speaking Ukrainians know they hate Russians. No, no, no. That’s not true. Again, that’s about division. So now we’re united and we speak to each other, the language that we know, but we look to the fruits of actions of the vision. So if you speak Russian and Ukrainian, that’s fine. But you know what’s interesting? Lots of before February 24th. Russian speaking Ukrainians start to speak Ukrainian to be united because they realized that language is one of the most important triggers right now. So difficult question, but it’s just evolving right now. You know, so that’s I like about the churches. For example, we have preachers that could and can now come here and preach in Russian. Or, you know, talk in Russian, and that’s fine, and that’s OK because we speak on the language of Holy Spirit. Talking about the business, we’re never diverse. Oh, if you a Russian speaking, I will not hire you. No, no, no, no. That’s not. We have engineers around Ukraine and we speak in chat in my bilingual Ukrainian and Russian. And that’s OK because we speak on the language of high, top notch service delivery for our clients. Tell us a little

Henry Kaestner: bit about what the businesses you have.

Andrew Denysov: Yeah. So one of the business I have is a tech company and probably I had the car dealership business, but I think it’s di because just there’s nothing in the world. So you had a car

Henry Kaestner: that you had a car dealership business until 10 days ago?

Andrew Denysov: Yeah, we purchased American cars in America, in the United States, like broken cars, shipped them to Ukraine, repaired them and sell them here. There was a small margin and I think that our small margin and because I love cars and, you know, it was a good business. But now it doesn’t work

Henry Kaestner: quick, have real quick diversion. Now a moment of levity and inmates report from a war zone. I had a good friend of mine in Finland who did the same thing, and he was fascinated and loved, and many of his friends loved Camaros in Iraq and Corvettes and things like that. The problem was that in Finland, there’s a very big import duty on sports cars, but there was no import duty on pickup trucks. So he had a business right in port, the cameras in and he turned them into pickup trucks. So the front would be a Camaro or an Iraq or a Corvette, and the back would be a flatbed pickup truck, like we said, the El Camino Real. You know, that was back in the 1970s, so I’m kind of betraying my age here a little bit. But I remember a business like that that I thought was interesting driving around the streets in Finland and seeing these converted cameras into pickup trucks. OK, back to our originally scheduled program reporting from the war zone in Leviev. Continue on. So you’re saying that this import type of business is probably now threatened

Andrew Denysov: because of the seaports in Odessa? I mean, it doesn’t ship anything. And yet that’s why we purchase broken cars in the states because there were super low import fee. And we have really smart people that actually can repair the cars, and it would look like new, you know, like really, really good Teslas. You no big trucks, etc. but by about another guy,

Henry Kaestner: that’s a great example because you hear this because they’re hitting a lot of the cities right along the Black Sea, and you’re giving a good illustration about why access to the ports is really, really important.

Andrew Denysov: Really, really important. Talking about another tech business, which is my primary business and the business that actually and my passion connects to that I love it because Ukraine, for the last twenty five, 30 years, Ukraine, everything was like a really good pool of talents in tech and software in math and physics. So that’s why the industry is also engineering in this super high. And, you know, we always thought that no force majeure actually can freight us, which is what we need when in our brains, internet connection laptops, electricity. That’s it. For example, when COVID hit, where? OK, so we just lost our offices and we work from home. So nothing broke our high tech measures on the stability for our clients. Why? Because we simply all lost more than to the case where remote vendor for our clients, mostly United States, the United States, is the biggest client for all companies right in Ukraine, Europe as well. Of course, Middle East. Yeah, like this through their actions. And another thing is because of the good tax system, what do we have in Ukraine always had? That’s why lots of smart people, they just talked to engineers and they provided a really good coach. And this industry was and still is, I hope, very good. Probably you heard about it recently. Yeah, we’re well known Prime Minister of Digital Transformation in Ukraine. This is a guy who was thirty one year old and he’s a vice prime minister in Ukraine, and he’s doing an amazing job, amazing work in our just digitalizing the Ukraine. So this is who we are. We love to create. We’re very entrepreneurial. We is it to learn best to learn everything. We understand that we know like we don’t need other languages, just English. For example, when I was kids, my dad said, Hey, no other language, just English. You have to learn. I said, Daddy, why I want to play soccer on the street, you know, et cetera. I don’t want to waste my precious time on learning English. If you speak English, you will speak with whole world. Daddy, thank you so much for this advice. I mean, software like business is something that still alive and works, and I want to even tell you more, brother, that exactly. Tech companies are providing the biggest donations if it’s my internal donations to United States Army, to refugees and the taxpayers.

Henry Kaestner: So maybe I’m being too presumptuous here. But a way to support Ukraine in this time is realizing that millions of Ukrainians who are well-educated in math and science and are good on the tech side are great candidates to be able to help the marketplace because as you’re helping them, they are involved with local minister. Well, maybe I’m just putting too many words in your mouth, but I think you’re getting something really important here. Ukraine has an increasingly tech proficient marketplace providing skills and services to a global economy as they are becoming more and more successful as you are. Others like you, including yourself, are able to invest in the challenges that you see in Ukraine that are right in your backyard. Yes. Is it too presumptuous for us to ask our audience just to be thoughtful about? Are there opportunities to hire Ukrainian businesses at this time there in the knowledge economy? And maybe that’s a way to help Ukraine in a really desperate time? Or is it sound like to pro-Ukrainian? I’m turning this into a sales pitch for Ukrainian technology companies. And maybe that’s OK.

Andrew Denysov: I want to quote Henry Kissinger on my link in Facebook. You know, the attempts by Ukrainians. I one this is one of the best sell speech I ever heard about Ukraine. Brother, there’s a win, actually. Let me start you off from waiting for Ukraine. I’m Ukrainian. So yes, that’s just one hundred percent each word. What you said? It’s true. True, true. And why? Because we smart. We are hard workers and we’ll do our best to provide the best service. But at the same time, at the same time. And yes, and of course, we’re very entrepreneurial and creative, so we love technology. For example, you probably heard about unicorns like Grammarly and Ukrainian company. You probably heard about tech. You heard about, like Snapchat, it’s American. But now, of course, technology was created in Ukraine and the Odessa, one of the companies and stuff like that. So we are very creative so we can create some really cool technologies. But at the same time, because of the economies gap Ukrainian emergent, there is another vein, for example, for American business, because the prices here are cheaper at the same time, providing a really good service. So that’s totally Win-Win.

Henry Kaestner: So tell us a little bit about, you know, this is a time of need in the country. And one of my favorite experiences ever with Faith driven entrepreneurs was going with Ruben Culture., director of international strategy to Romania, where there is just an incredible number of Faith Driven Entrepreneur groups. It’s just incredibly encouraging. So we spent an entire week going around at different cities in Romania and visiting with them. One of the highlights was a retreat that a number of Faith driven entrepreneurs put together in Transylvania, and there were 35 of them, maybe 27 28 Romanians and seven or eight or nine Moldovans. And during the entire day, they talked about the different ministries they like to support locally, and it completely changed my paradigm of having thought about this. We hear about Romanian orphanages, and the presumption is that all the money comes from the West. In this case, these are local entrepreneurs rolling up their sleeves, getting involved in these orphanages, many of them sitting on the boards of some of these organizations and giving generously to them. And then as they talked about the different organizations they like, then they went around. At the end, you could go ahead and pile on. The other faith driven entrepreneurs that were already given other ones that they were championing would say, Hey, I love that presentation. I want to count us down for 2000 euros for that as well. Yes, it was just kind of this neat, vibrant generosity initiative among Faith driven entrepreneurs in Romania. You see anything like that happen in the Ukraine or is there a local generosity initiative? Talk about that.

Andrew Denysov: Yeah, yeah. You know, I’ll tell you another quick story from my experience of my life. OK, so here’s the point. There are two types of generation in Ukraine. Like I call that my generation. They were like grown up after the Soviet Union and another like my parents’ generation who were grown up and actually, you know, like in Soviet Union, right? So my parents’ generation, because they grow up, their data mentality was like, you know, you have to go to school university, you’ll get the job from the government for 100 percent and you’ll be provided the job housing and all will be OK. Not you won’t be prosperous. You know, you won’t believe the rich, the rich, you know, like super freedom, life, etc. But you’ll be provided my generation. For example, on the very first day of when I came to the university, the very old but very wise professor told me, I remember that that was in two thousand four. He told me that. When you graduate, when you finish this year or in five years, all of you will be unemployed and we were like, What are you talking about? That was 2004, like unemployed. But my mom and my dad told me that you have to go to university because to get a good job. They were right and they are like, world right. But the world has changed. And that professor was right. So when I graduated, I was struggling to find a job. That’s why the only one way you could do is start your business. And two years before I graduated, I had a chance to come to the United States for some of my life. That was the students exchange program called Work in Travel USA. And like I said, I just was at work where in the United States, Gulf Shores, Alabama and Orange Beach. Yes, we lived in culture

Henry Kaestner: that match up like, we’re doing this video interview right now, and I see the skyline of Manhattan behind you and the Brooklyn Bridge, and I see Steve Jobs in the Chicago Cubs baseball, the Gulf Shores Alabama match what you had thought the United States was always about. And I say this partly in jest because I know of William’s love of his home state of Alabama.

Andrew Denysov: Really, really.

Rusty Rueff: I’m not going to derail us into a conversation about Alabama, but this makes me very happy.

Andrew Denysov: Yeah, brothers. I didn’t know anything about states, about Alabama before. That’s because we got the job offer from Johnny Rockets the most rocket Iraq. The hamburgers. We were dancing servers. I won one of the best dances server ever in their entire history.

Henry Kaestner: You were a dancing server at Johnny Rockets.

Andrew Denysov: Yes, sir. Yes.

Rusty Rueff: Oh, I wish we did a video. So what is

Henry Kaestner: it? What does that entail? I mean, what? What do you do? I mean,

Andrew Denysov: every 30 minutes, the visitors could order the song and they knew actually there were bands and servers and we had a few songs and it was really the really cool song Brothers. I think I’ve lost that video somewhere on. You may have

Henry Kaestner: to find and put it in the shadows. So this dinner,

Rusty Rueff: we need to go. We need theater Alabama style. That’s what it sounds like. Sounds like Henry’s never been to a Johnny Rockets Amen revenge on Iraq, but we can celebrate.

Henry Kaestner: Yes, last time in Alabama.

Andrew Denysov: But I love it. Yeah, that’s super cool. It’s it’s interesting. But you know me and my wife, although we were planning to come to the United States on June again and this year for a month or so, and we tried to mostly visit to the East Coast, North Carolina, Alabama, Florida, you know, of course, New York City as well. But of course, now we don’t know which plane right now, so no more plans are on hold. So that’s why we were going to visit Gulf Shores and Orange Beach as well. Because, you know, this is our very first impression of the United States and it was super cool and fresh.

Rusty Rueff: So during that time, you come back to Alabama, you let me know, well, OK. Well, when you go

Henry Kaestner: to North Carolina first, you will never leave.

Andrew Denysov: I don’t know. Yeah. Oh my guess, brothers. You make me smile like I. This is the most for the last nine days. Thank you, brothers, for a good movie with you.

Henry Kaestner: It’s so great to be with you.

Andrew Denysov: So let me come back to my story. So I had a chance to come to the United States, and 2007 actually was here in the States when I got knocked to my heart in the States. I was dropped there because it was full, because I was four. There was a story that in the end, the third months of my stay in the states, just saving money in the house, you know, etc. And then my friends, they knew that and they just $5k, the biggest money that I ever had in my life and ERG and there was just one month remains until I had to come back to Ukraine and my mom came to Jesus year ago. I mean, in 2006, you know, I said, Hey, I heard about you, Jesus. My mom told me that an issue you just for me, I need like $3K more because my parents actually spent four air tickets, program documents, you know, people, papers, cetera, et cetera. Exist, just give me that. I talked to him and I forget the conversation and I started to work, work hard and two jobs. So when you came back to Ukraine, there was on three hundred bucks more than, I bet, you know, like three K plus three hundred dollars. And actually, when I was talking to Jesus that time, I didn’t believe that it will come true. How one important thing I saw 2007. And that was the year when Steve Jobs and Apple announced their very first iPhone, I was working my second job that time was I was housekeeper, so I was cleaning one in that rooms. I looked at the advertisement, Steve Jobs said, Hey, these icons are so cruel that you want to lick them, right? So I remembered that phrase and I was looking at the TV and I said, Oh, wow, what a kind of magic is that holding my old small Nokia Wear audience, you know? And I realized that, hey, these technologies, this is real magic. So that’s why I came back from the states to Ukraine that year. I realized that I cannot find a job being the student. On the third year, I realized that I need to try and trip conversion, and I earn some first money and I realized, Wow, it works. So this notion of this business works because I never even heard about word business and urban airship. So I realized that it works and it can make some good money. I can help my parents, my friends, my family know and etc. So we’re talking about different crises, so in my life. I had a few crises in 2004, a revolution, first 12, 14 and 13 second revolution. There was like comment. I don’t count that as a crisis because now comparing to comment is just not. So talking about entrepreneurship, I realized that entrepreneurship for Ukraine is must be so much my entrepreneurship as a Christian, I’m a result of American missionaries. And when I really I was always pursuing the English courses and one of the stories is actually I get acquainted with a missionary that actually came back after 10 years living in Ukraine to back to Atlanta, Georgia, and his name is Dustin Miller-Meeks the most fantastic man I ever know. So he invested into my spiritual life, and I call him like my spiritual daddy. And we had the conversation last week. So he’s actually I’m the product of American Christians, and they actually invest it to me so much. And we help all Americans to create, you know, camps, English courses, etc. And that’s why I talk to all Americans. I tell to all my American friends one thing that please don’t give us money. Teach us how to generate the money. How to learn entrepreneurship. How to create the value. Because we don’t want to take just fish. We want to ask you, teach us fish. And you know how to generate this? Well, not to be the country of donations, but to be the country of generator of some kind of cool value in tech, anything that we have lots of talents. So this is my store. This is my vision. That’s why I’m super passionate about being the co-founder of American company. I had to do that. I predicted this. And actually, even for the American markets, better off. And you know, my clients paid to American bank account, you know, dealing with an American company. But still, I’m Ukrainian, and thank God we’re living in a very global world. So, you know, I can be in Ukraine, I can be in Europe, I can be in the states anywhere and still doing the business and creating job workplace. I can tell you about the passion about the vision. I could talk a lot, so please stop me.

Rusty Rueff: No, not going to stop you. I just know we’re getting close to the hour here in Russian. I have. And forgive me if I don’t ask this question properly. How is your hope and how is the hope of the Ukrainian people right now? You’re in nine or 10 days. I mean, there are, I guess I’m going to ask this poorly. There are bad outcomes here, potentially from what I can tell and I’m not in it. There are good outcomes. There are medium outcomes. How is your hope and how is your friends and your family thinking about where this will be 10 days from now and 100 days from now? How are you there?

Andrew Denysov: OK, so officially, the help is good. Not officially, it’s not a good. It’s time to look into the broken serious and, you know, looking to this situation like Christian, I realize that everything will be OK because we’re going to the eternal life to our heavenly home, right? Looking at a jumper error, I realized that, oh my gosh, we need to build our country from the ground. So general, we try to keep the hope good and brother. Really, there are mixed feelings regarding the help. So if telling you, honestly, we don’t know. We didn’t know because situation is really bad. I’m positive, actually hold my last and very close. I try to look to the evidence church is very positive. That’s why that’s why I love to encourage people, inspire people in my life. But now just telling to you all guys and everyone here, listen to this episode and the best podcast ever in the world for entrepreneurs and not just entrepreneurs, but the people who fight to create something creative value and make a difference in this world. I’m telling you, if you hear us, please help Ukraine. And if with anything you need. If you’re somewhere in a government, please through your government sources are in business, maybe donate something. But with the trust source, if you can, you know, help with some military stuff, please do that with humanitarian aid. We need that a lot. And when the World War will finish and we really, really asking you, please come here and just meet these people, invest into this business. I realize that it sounds ridiculous investing into the country after the war. I’m sure they will win. That’s my hope. Brother, well, my hope we will win. You trend will win. But to help us with, you know, entrepreneurship, how to invest, how to build companies economy, I mean, like, you know, some kind of economic stuff. Money management and English. We need English, we don’t need Russia in any lot of the language. I mean, now we need English because this is international language. When computers understand English, because the code is in English, so this is the hope. I really, really hope that we’ll come back the hope to the right level because my hope is Jesus. And that’s why we tried to help our people around us to keep the hope on him and turn it into the practical direction.

Rusty Rueff: Thank you so much for that, and I know, Andrew, if you have any resources, we’ll listen for our listeners and we’ll make a post about some of the things I know. Hope International has a fund and some other friends of the community have ways to help, but obviously help us. Listeners have ways to help reach out to us. We’ll share it with our audience, so please be with us. Thank you for that. And as you know, we do typically closed with with God’s word, and I would love to invite you there. Where does God have you today? Where is he pointing you for some of that hope or clarity or or anger or frustration? I don’t know what emotion you’re going to scripture with right now, but where my God have you?

Andrew Denysov: Actually, what’s interesting, one of my favorite verse that I live right now, when I wake up every day, every morning, this is the release 21 seven that says that those who are victorious will inherit all this. And I will be their God and they will be my children. So, you know, that message from scripture came to my mind even far before the war started. But now it’s actually like never before. We understand about what victory this passage is talking about, right? And I’m thrilled. I don’t want to, you know, connect to the war or something like that, but I realize that like never before. Then sooner or later, I will die. I will die and learn what will go, so I will be that guy who will be called son and inherit that investments that Jesus invested into my life, into my eternity. And this verse that I would wake up every morning and go to bed with this brother. So this is my hope as well.

Henry Kaestner: Heavenly Father, we lift the banner and the people of Ukraine to you, and we ask for your world to be done and that you would it would be your world that this conflict would end quickly. We asked for particular favor and protection over your community of believers who you acknowledge you as their father and who want to ascribe glory to you and your largest asset. You would glorify yourself through this in a way that doesn’t seem obvious right now, but you would know and you’d find us all faithful and obedient those of us listening to this and in North America, that we would answer the call to be involved in some of the relief efforts through different ministries that we know are on the ground, making an impact that we would be an encouragement to those that are still on the ground and in Eastern Europe, especially those, of course, in Ukraine that would find as prayerful that you would answer our prayers and that you would be glorified but micro prayers that you just bless the Denisova family. You protect them on the times when they can’t make it down to the basement for the air raid that you’d protect them where they shelter in place and the bathroom that you’d be with faith driven entrepreneurs all throughout the country, you’d be with faith driven entrepreneurs all throughout Russia. That your name would be proclaimed and that the glory wouldn’t go to Russia, the glory wouldn’t go to Ukraine, the glory would go to you in Jesus name. Amen.

Andrew Denysov: And that brothers, I want to tell you, thank you so much for this podcast because you shed that light into the darkness of this world. I truly believe because the combination of entrepreneurship and Christian Faith driven entrepreneurs is something. This is something. And I truly believe that when the world gets darker, the light shines brighter. So keep shining and let’s shine together.

Henry Kaestner: God bless you, brother. Awesome, MIT.

— by Amanda Lawson

In preparation for teaching our course “Integrating Faith & Entrepreneurship,” I have spent hours looking for the content to add to the curriculum. I came across a book called How Then Should We Work by Hugh Whelchel. It’s a good read and asks some provocative questions. 

But if I’m being honest, I think I’ve struggled much more with a similar, perhaps more cynical question: why then should we work? It’s a question I believe many of us ask when we are in dry or hard seasons. So many times, we ask the hard questions, quickly shove them aside and try to grin and bear it until we either forget the question or life gets easy enough that it doesn’t seem to matter. That isn’t always a bad strategy, but I believe this is one question that deserves an answer. 

I’ll be candid, I woke up this morning to news of yet another devastating tragedy in Haiti. I serve on the board of directors for an organization in the northern part of the country, just outside of Cap Haitien. I’ve been involved in the organization for a decade and have been on the board for three years. It is a country very close to my heart and my time in Haiti has had a profound impact on my life—from the college I attended and the focus of my master’s thesis to the way I spend my money and PTO. 

About six years ago I was on a trip to help with the building of a high school. On the one hand, it was so hopeful: this was going to be one of the only high schools in that part of the country and would be able to serve a massive number of students. And on the other hand, one high school in a country with few jobs and few students who could afford 9-12 years of schooling (both financially and because of family obligations) felt like less than a dent of progress. Sitting in the back of a pickup truck driving through downtown Cap Haitien, I started to cry, lost in strong and conflicting emotions, feeling like nothing we were doing was making any real difference. 

2021 has been a tragic year for Haiti, a country that was already struggling to overcome centuries of political and economic turmoil. On top of ongoing battles with COVID-19, the assassination of the president, followed by a devastating earthquake, subsequent hurricane, increase in gang activity that led to more violence and less gasoline (which is necessary to operate life-saving generators throughout the country), and most recently, an oil tanker explosion that killed upwards of 60 people, the picture of 2021 in Haiti has been incredibly dim. 

This morning, I woke up to the news of the oil tank explosion. When I’m in Haiti, I drive by the spot where it happened almost daily. Now, I’ve never woken up to an email that my company was hacked or that we lost all of our money, but I do understand what it is to wake up to news that people you love, people you have worked with, have had their lives uprooted overnight. I’ve seen those houses, I know the community. What I don’t know is how to move forward when it feels like everything is truly meaningless. 

I understand that this isn’t the chipper, encouraging message we love to hear as entrepreneurs. We want the stories of overcoming obstacles, of underdogs going public, and of products that change the world. They’re easier, more palatable. But I think there’s value in the honesty in hard things. The truth is, we don’t know how to reconcile the devastation like that which has taken place in Haiti and places like it. I’ve found myself constantly asking the question this year: why then should we work? If Haiti is just going to be continually plagued by corruption and political turmoil, natural disasters, and gang rule, what’s even the point? 

Some days, remembering the lives that have been changed for the better, the children who get to go to school, the churches that have concrete buildings instead of outdoor meetings subject to nature’s whims is enough to keep my heart in it. Other days, it’s not. 

How do we fight what feels like a losing battle? Why do we do the work when it feels like nothing is going to make a difference? I’ve wrestled with this question so much in my job and work I’ve been a part of in Haiti. I think the reality is that the world is broken and it’s not meant to last. The hope in it is that it isn’t going to last. And when the hits just don’t stop, when I’m losing the fight to stay motivated, I have to remember why I started in the first place. 

I can’t deny the calling I felt. As much as days like today—years like this year—make me want to close my eyes and run far away from this fight, I can’t pretend to not know. The outcomes can’t be my motivation. Obedience has to be my motivation. Because regardless of your eschatology, some day, all of this world is going to look drastically different. Whether everything is burnt up or redeemed to something more, what we “produce” won’t look the same. What endures is our obedience, our worship; worship not only in the gazing at the Lord, singing and declaring His holiness way, but in the Romans 12:1-2 definition of a life fully laid down and surrendered to God’s will. 

So what do we do when the things we are called to explode, shake, flood, or otherwise make us want to scream and run in the opposite direction? Practically, I don’t know. I’ve fought plenty of losing battles and I recognize that there are so many people fighting much harder things (the people living in Haiti, for example), but I can’t say I’ve found any great coping mechanism. I also believe that it’s ok, maybe even Christ-like, to weep over those battles and to be honest about the struggle. 

Jesus wept at the death of His friend and He looked at the masses with compassion. Paul and the Ephesian elders wept together at his departure, knowing they would not meet again in this life. The early Church faced persecution that we cannot imagine—case in point, Revelation 2:13 mentions a man who was martyred by being boiled alive in a vat of oil because of his faith—yet persisted because of the call and commission of the gospel, not because they converted the Roman Empire. 

The hope I can offer here is that obedience endures when other outcomes do not. We honor the call because of who called it and we have to trust that He had a good and holy reason to do so. And also, it is okay to weep over the fight. 

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