Episode 191 - Warwick Fairfax: Finding Your Way Back From Failure
Warwick Fairfax was the fifth-generation heir to Australia's most storied media empire, a business started by his great-great grandfather. In the mid-'80s, a couple of decades after the family took Fairfax Media public, Warwick -- fresh from Harvard Business School -- launched a takeover that failed three years later. In just three years he lost the business that had been in the family for 150 years and was worth $2.25 billion. Warwick’s story offers insights into how you can move beyond failure and setbacks to become the leader you were born to be. He joins us today to share how he found his way back from failure and how you too can find your way back by allowing your crucible moments to refine you and help you find your life's purpose.
All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific advice for any individual or organization.
Episode Transcript
Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.
Rusty Rueff: Welcome back everyone to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. I know I say it many times that this is a special episode and they all are special. But today we have a story that would be hard to believe if it wasn't true. Our guest today is Warwick Fairfax. Warwick was the fifth generation heir to Australia's most storied media empire, a business started by his great great grandfather in the mid 1980s. A couple of decades after the family took Fairfax Media public, Warwick, fresh from Harvard Business School with an MBA, launched a takeover that failed three years later. Warwick had felt called by God to return the company to its founding values. The result? He lost the business that had been in the family for 150 years and was worth two point twenty five billion. Yes, two and a quarter billion dollars. Warwick's story offers insights into how all of us can move beyond failure and setbacks to become the leaders we were born to be. He joins us today to share how he found his way back from failure and how we too can find our way back by allowing our Crucible moments to refine us and to help us find our life's purpose. Let's listen in.
Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Back here in the virtual studio with Rusty and with William Williams, background is always inspiring for me. I don't know if this ever shows up on the video, but he's got the public library in Los Angeles, which is of the thousands of Zoom backdrops I've seen. I think it's the best. William, good morning.
William Norvell: I take that. You know, the money we invested in the virtual studio last year really paid off. And you know, I'm living proof
Henry Kaestner: exactly the the budget that we gave. Each of us have 20 bucks. I think you spend your 20 hours really well.
William Norvell: It was a good game and I tried hard.
Henry Kaestner: So I'm back. I was in Romania, I was actually in and you can't make this up. I was actually in Transylvania and then you look
Rusty Rueff: a little pale. You look a little pale.
Henry Kaestner: That's right. That's right. Is in Transylvania, which is famous for all sorts of different reasons that probably have nothing to do with Faith driven entrepreneurs ship, but maybe it will become famous for Faith Driven Entrepreneur ship six different events, and it's amazing to see what God is doing in northwestern Romania. Business owners just completely on fire for the gospel and integrating their faith in what they do. You know, before we started recording, I'd mentioned a couple of different stories and I guess there are six different groups in, but one of the groups that the group that got me the most fired up was last Saturday. I guess it's probably 40 of them, 35 or 40 of them together and this kind of mountain lodge for an event where each of them brought a different Christian ministry that was in Romania that they were fired up about. They'd watch a four minute video about it and then they'd get up and they'd champion it. And just the fellowship of this day was just amazing. And there's just great camaraderie and fellowship, most of them. In fact, all of them had gone through a FDE watch party. So there's some talk about anti-crisis talk, and it was just super cool. But what I loved was that at the end of the day, all 14 of these ministries got funded completely. A couple hundred thousand euro were raised, all from Faith driven entrepreneurs for these causes that were right in their backyard. And it was just awesome just seeing this community of FDE getting together and been really generous.
Rusty Rueff: Sounds exciting.
William Norvell: Sounds amazing. Out of curiosity, what took you there in the first place? What was the impetus for you? Go into those places?
Henry Kaestner: So a bunch of Faith driven entrepreneurs Romania had been listening to podcasts and said, You know, there are a bunch of us that get together. We are familiar with the conference from last year. And would you ever consider coming to northwestern Romania and hanging out? And I had said, No, you know, I've got three kids at home there. A bunch of different reasons why I think it's going to be able to work. But they were really insistent and they said, You have to understand there is a big community of folks here, and we had some things we'd love to share with you. We'd love for you to share with us and just come in. There is just so winsome nature about it. Maybe a dozen of them all kind of came inbound and like this concerted attack, if you will. And oh my goodness, I'm so glad they did. I'm remarkably blessed from having gone there and is this vibrant, dynamic community and I would have picked. Transylvania has been a hotbed for Faith Driven Entrepreneur Russia, but I think it's just a really good evidence and we're hearing this back from all over. We had watch parties in 53 different countries, 70 people getting together in Manila had a big audience in Cape Town all over. But there's some of these different spots where guys really at work, and so it fun for me. I was a person easily the most blessed by my time there, but it's also good to be back with the family. It's good being back with you guys. We've got a great guest in our virtual studio, if you will. And I want to get right into it with Warwick Fairfax, this great, multi-generational business guy who's been really serious about his Christian faith for a long time. We heard about this, William, why don't you tell us about how he heard about this story?
William Norvell: Yeah, we'll give a shout out to Carrie. So it sounds like the podcast is leading to great things. So the podcast led to Northwest Romania, which gives great fervor to the delegation from northwest Alabama. You have your marching orders, get together 12 emails. We'll make it happen. A listener reached out over LinkedIn and said, Hey Ben, listen to the podcast. I recently helped someone write their book. That would be Warwick, and I think he's got a great story that your listeners might want to hear. And after doing some research and how it's of conversations, we agreed. So, Keri Childers, thank you so much for listening there in Georgian for reaching out. Really appreciate it.
Henry Kaestner: Indeed, indeed. OK, Warwick Fairfax, thank you for being with us. So glad to have you here today as we get started. I'd love for you to give our listeners a quick bio of who you are. What are the steps you've taken on your professional journey that led to where you are today? And when did faith become an aspect? Of your life and work.
Warwick Fairfax: Thanks, Henry, and thanks everybody for having me, so kind of what I do now is crystal ball leadership. I have a book coming out October 19 kind of talks about my story growing up in a large family media business. So a crystal ball leadership is about is how do you not let your worst day to find you? How do you bounce back from principles which we call setbacks? Failures could be your fault, not your fault. How do you bounce back to lead what we call a life of significance for life on purpose dedicated to serving others? So that's the concept behind it. We have our own podcast, Beyond the Crystal Ball when interviewed maybe 70 plus guests of every kind of crystal ball and tragedy you can imagine, and they all have a sense of hope. So really, that's what we're about. But I guess the second part of your question, Henry, is, Well, how did I get there as I guess the quick hundred thousand foot level is? I grew up in a large family media business in Australia, was 150 years old, founded actually by as strong a business person for Christ. It's not ever come across, which is not. The whole story was elder. It is church wonderful. Husband father is employees loved him, any guru of business. So he was, you could say, the original Faith Driven Entrepreneur. He did everything right. Life was balanced, strong faith and successful business. So, you know, they got a sort of case one back in the 1830s. So fast-forward 150 years or so grown into a very large business. Newspapers TV magazines had the Australian equivalent of The Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Washington Post. But the sense was that it drifted from the ideals of the founder company wasn't being well-run. Fresh from Harvard Business School in 1987, at age 26, I lost to $2.5 billion. Takeover ended up failing spectacularly for a variety of reasons. Too much debt. Australia got in a big recession. The company went under three years later. So yeah, I kind of started off big at age 26 with the $2 billion takeover. I fought for the right reasons. It wasn't about power and ego. So I guess really what Christian leadership grew out of that is how do you bounce back from such a cataclysmic failure? And it took years to find my way back. And I was a believer in the middle of that. But hey, that's believe it or not, the short version.
Henry Kaestner: So I want to. Of course, we want to understand a lot about the Crucible. You went through so much of your book in your podcast, your ministry. Walk us back. Just a little bit further back. By the way, I love the fact that you talk about this Faith Driven Entrepreneur in the 1830s, and I think that we can all in this new generation of faith driven entrepreneurs take some encouragement from the fact that we are not the first by any stretch. We've had guests that have talked about the Guinness family, and we've talked about Jinson Dorf and the Moravians and Faith driven entrepreneurs business people taking their faith and in their backyard or by bringing in overseas have been great business people for a long time. And that continues up until this day hadn't know anything about this legacy of Australian Faith driven entrepreneurs ship. And so I'm grateful for that and sounds like it was a great scale as well. But talk to us about your own family. What role did family play in your life growing up before Harvard Business School before you went ahead and and get involved in this business?
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah, I mean, growing up for my family, it sounds strange, but it's a bit like growing up in the royal family. So imagine your Prince William and you say to your dad and grandma, you know the Queen. I don't think I want to do this thing. It's just not my idea. Well, it's say you're letting down a nation. I mean, the Commonwealth, you can't. So the idea of me not going into it, it's like, Well, how could you not want to go into a business, but not just a business? It's, you know, that sort of uplift a nation. It's there to, you know, have quality stories, quality journalism. How could you be against that vision? It's a wonderful vision. So I've never felt like I had a choice.
Henry Kaestner: And so I'm going to go to Santa Barbara and get interviewed by Oprah.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah, well, that's an interesting point. But yeah, I leave the country and I did leave in the country. But the thing went under my wife's American, which was fortunate. But no, I felt like I had no choice. My whole life undergrad at Oxford worked on Wall Street, Harvard Business School. None of it was because this is what I want to do this because this is what was needed like Judy on a country that kind of whole deal. Yeah, I was, you know, I worked hard and we just thought everybody that grows up in the wealthy business works hard. But I made the mistake of working hard, avoiding doing dumb stuff, you know, drugs or whatever I was.
Henry Kaestner: You say you made the mistake of working hard
Warwick Fairfax: because it raised expectations, because a lot of kids, as you would know from wealthy families, they just, you know, they don't work hard, they drive fast cars. They just don't live productive lives, but I I was the opposite, so like us. Here's a young guy that's working hard. That's diligent. It just raised the expectations exponentially. So in hindsight, I jokingly say it was a bit of a mistake to be so diligent.
Henry Kaestner: So if you had to do it all over again, would you have gotten a Corvette and just.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah, no. I mean, I am who I am. But if I had to do it all over again, maybe I wouldn't have gone to the family business, but that would have been an impossible after a 26 year old not to.
Henry Kaestner: Well, I'm glad you did, because I get a sense that God work through it and you're blessing a lot of people through a Crucible leadership. And if you just had a normal kind of steady rise without any drama, you wouldn't have been in the same place to do the same type of ministry. So tell us more about the season where things are going really difficult. It may be time gala this in the late eighties 1986 87 88.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah. So in early 87, my dad died. He was in his 80s. I was from the third marriage. Those big age gap. As I mentioned, there was a sense the company wasn't being run well, not run along videos of the founder and being young naive. I just felt like, okay, something has to be done. And so I went all in that sort of righteously of self-righteously all guns blazing didn't really talk to some other family members. For their perspective, in my whole book is about what I did wrong and don't do what I did. I mean, the core of it. I go into exhaustive, excruciatingly painful detail. But yeah, so I launched this massive takeover and, you know, I was naively saying, Look, I don't need to be chairman. I can work in the marketing department analyzing you can still hold your positions. But what rational person would want to be in a company controlled by a 26 year old without any easy way to get out? That would be stupidity. Of course, they all sold and some of them got, you know, hundreds of millions each or something because, you know, we're talking $700 million. Four thousand plus, the company was a massive company, so they did the logical thing, which is to sell too much debt and things went badly from them. I mean, we did every kind of refinance you can think of if any of the older folks listening should remember. Back in the 80s, the lender of Last Resort with Drexel Burnham, Michael Milken. And so we went there and headquartered in Beverly Hills. And yeah, I mean, we did everything we could. I even brought in new management that increased operating profits 80 percent. But the debt was so much it didn't matter what my management did, I dug them a massive hole that no managers is going to be able to get out of. So the die was cast and so they lost. The pay got a lot of mistakes, but honestly, it wasn't about ego. It was trying to do what I thought was right and just what I thought was right. Maybe wasn't right. Perhaps a lesson to listeners is don't assume you know, all the truth and you have the answers and you can be a little self-righteous at times and your conviction about what needs to be done. And that's part of my story.
Henry Kaestner: So how do you navigate through that? I mean, it sounds like it must mean it's really, really sobering. How do you do that? And what role does your faith play?
Warwick Fairfax: Well, you know, I became a Christian at an evangelical Anglican church at Oxford. And yeah, I've raised in the Anglican Church, which is pretty evangelical. But I was a believer then, and so, you know, I was on my knees a lot of prayer during those days. Yeah, I was living with a few guys before I was married and they were believers. I think probably my faith, I really leaned onto my faith in the years after in the 1990s because probably the most crushing part of what I went through wasn't the loss of money, because money never been important to me and still wasn't. But it was more the sense I let my family down. Ancestors, parents and I had this notion I let God down, which for a kind of a thought of myself, frankly, as a Faith Driven Entrepreneur. But I suppose in some weird way I was. But I had the sense that God had a plan to resurrect the company in the image of the founder not to have Jesus lives on the front page of the paper, but more in terms of how people were treated. So when I felt like I let God down as I believed it, that was just crushing was devastating. But I kind of came to realize, despite my naivete and stupidity, if God had wanted to resurrect the company and the image of the founder or whatever through me, he would have done it. But God had a bigger plan he doesn't need. John Fairfax Ltd. He doesn't need my stuff. He has his own sovereign plans. And frankly, he had a better plan for me in my life. It took me years to realize that, but I leant into my faith an enormous amount. I mean, it's funny. One scripture comes to mind is Philippians three seven through about 14, and this is real for me, it says. But whatever was to my prophet, I now consider lost for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared with surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus, my lord. For his sake, I've lost all things. I consider them rubbish, but I may again cry to be found that. I'm not having a righteousness my own that comes from the law, but that which is true faith in Christ, basically to me, I just kept clinging to $2billion Fairfax Media identity. That's all rubbish compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Jesus. So, you know, I just it was like a mantra over and over and over again. I was clinging to that as you try to claw my self-esteem back. So yes, my faith is the cornerstone of my life. I live in a massive amount and especially in the early 90s as I tried to claw my self-esteem back.
Rusty Rueff: You know, I'm curious where we were other members of your family also sharing your faith?
Warwick Fairfax: That's a great question. Rusty. I mean, basically, it was very strong faith 150 years ago. But as the family became wealthier and more established, you know, lots of money clinic, a lot of respect. It became more traditional. My father, who my dearly loved, he had a more of an ecumenical, wrote books about synthesizing different philosophies and religions. And that's pretty heady stuff. Everything's five syllables. I love my dad, but it's not my viewpoint on more traditional in terms of my evangelical faith. I have a sister who has faith in Christ, but no is more traditional. So which is common, you know, it's sad that the much we want our kids, grandkids and great great grandkids to believe in Jesus. It's not easy to preserve our faith that generation after generation. Sure. And, you know, so yeah,
Rusty Rueff: so while you're in the Crucible, which I want to kind of dove into kind of finding your way out of the Crucible, you couldn't really turn to family. You said you had some friends, but were there other members of community that helped you through?
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah. I mean, I think at the time, you know, I had a mentor who's all the dying Christ was helping me through during the takeover. And then guys I lived with when I moved to the U.S. after it went on to kiss my last American, I definitely had believing friends. But it was not easy, because what do you say to somebody like that? It's hard to identify with that kind of a loss. I think really where the community help is probably early 2000, I became involved in the local nondenominational church where I ended up becoming an elder and I felt like I could actually contribute to something. But elder at that church in 2000, folks and I was on the board of Christian School, but I felt like I could contribute to something that was part of what the Lord was doing. That was enormously helpful. So I was not an easy person to help. I mean, as you know, sometimes the journey is not easy. No shortage of people praying and trying to help. But it took years for me to bounce back. So there's a long road.
Rusty Rueff: And I would imagine that at your level sort of socioeconomically, you know, recognized in the country as a family, a leading family. There's not a lot of peers to reach out to.
Warwick Fairfax: Well, no, there's not. And you know how many peers are there in wealthy family businesses who have strong faith? I mean, it's probably not. Many money and faith tend not to go together, unfortunately, which obviously I'm sure you talk about that Faith Driven Entrepreneur as it can be successful. But try not to lose your faith in the process, which is, I'm sure, the whole nother discussion that you guys delve into. But no, it wasn't like your typical failed business or cancer survivor or abuse survivor. I mean, as a horrific circumstances, you can find other people, sadly, you can talk to. That's a great question. I Rusty haven't thought about that. There's nobody I can say, Yeah, I've been through it to maybe other business folks. But the scale of this, I mean, it was front page news. I had editorial cartoons, you know, one with me looking at like some Mango radio, you know, but to cut it in 50 years to Bill was destroyed in a day. And here's my least favorite cartoon How do you start a small business? Give Warwick Fairfax a big one. I mean, it was some savage cartoons. So yeah, I never thought about it that way. But no, there wasn't a whole lot of people to say I went through that too. I was front page in the news and I'm a believer and generational family wealth, and I've never met that person yet now.
Rusty Rueff: Now I can imagine the loneliness that one would feel in those moments. You know, we've had guests on the podcast over the years who have had, you know, levels of success and then they've lost it. And in particular, in the media world, we had Phil Fisher, the founder, VeggieTales, and he spoke a lot about, you know, I grew the business up. He lost the business because he really put the emphasis in the wrong place. And then he came out on the back side and said, You know, this was all for a purpose. This is what was supposed to happen. And I'm actually almost grateful, you know, for where I am today.
William Norvell: Can you say you're grateful where you are today?
Warwick Fairfax: This is something I've been learning somewhat recently and on our own podcast Beyond The Crucible, we had an Australian woman who was injured at age 12 in a diving accident, became a quadriplegic and she turned what she went through as a gift, which I find incomprehensible hacker becoming a quadriplegic, be a gift. But yet, in some sense, what I went through. Yes, while I don't know that I'd like to go through it again, there was a gift and a blessing in that it gave me a passion for helping other people who've gone through Crucible that gave me that level of empathy and compassion and not judging others for their mistakes and failures. And so, yeah, I'm a reflective. I like to write and have conversations with folks, and I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. Without that, I would be trapped in a gilded cage, if you will. And unfortunately, by the grace of God, you know, very, very comfortable. I'm certainly not hurting financially. But yeah, I probably could have been, I don't know, a billion or two wealthier. But you know, fortunately, money doesn't motivate me, but it would have been a gilded cage. I would have been trapped in this cage that would have made me miserable. It is. You're right, Rusty is a blessing that I'm not into. It is a gift. In some sense. God, in his sovereign will, had a much better plan for my life. And yes, I suppose I am grateful to God for me to say that, but I guess I am.
Rusty Rueff: And do you think that there was a moment or an event or something that started to shift that perspective for you?
Warwick Fairfax: That actually really was. I thought about writing a book or people had asked me, and I never wanted to write a tell all thing. I was right. They were wrong because those books are wrong and lame and boring. But in 2003, the pastor of my church in Maryland, where we lived, was giving a sermon on David and hiding in the cave of the deal. He was being pursued by Saul, a righteous man falsely persecuted and says, Look, I brought a lot of trouble on myself. I'm not David, but fine. I'm not Mr Charismatic Speaker. I'm more reserved. So I, you know, talked a bit about what I went through for about 10 minutes, weeks, months after people said to me, You know what, you should Warwick really help me, and I'm thinking, how many FOMO? Because now they're in the congregation. How in the world could my story help anybody? But somehow, by being authentic, vulnerable sharing, since it's a church, I thought some lessons God taught me, you know, that was pivotal. That shifted saying, OK, if my story can help people, it's worth it. Took years to write. I mean, it's being published this year. That's 12 years later. It took two years to write and then navigate, and so that was pivotal. If my story can help people, then it's worth the pain of telling because that's not about me, it's about helping others. So that Rusty was the pivotal moment that shifted my thinking about my story and how it actually can be a blessing.
Rusty Rueff: Well, I personally and I think I can say this for all of our listeners, the fact that you are grateful that you do see this as a gift is a gift to all the rest of us because we all go through these Crucible moments and I think your imagery of a gilded cage not being able to get out of that without having changed your perspective and through God's grace, being able to move there is really helpful for all of us. And you know, look, the media loves these kind of stories, right? We watch television shows succession or, you know, are things that have these families that fall apart. But there's no redemption at the end of them, right? And you're giving us a redemption story that no matter what we go through, we can come out the back side. So I just really appreciate you sharing as openly as you're sharing. And I'll turn it over to William. But I want to ask one last question for those who are in the Crucible and looking up and around and saying, I don't see any way out of this. What advice do you give them?
Warwick Fairfax: You know, it's interesting. I mean, I often talk about being in the depth of a pet. You know, it's your worst day. Your nightmares happened. Whether it's a cancer diagnosis, losing a business abuse, becoming a paraplegic quadriplegic, I mean, this life is not easy. There's a horrific thing that people go through, and it's hard to see hope on your worst day. But it's this notion that your worst day doesn't have to define you. I mean, for me, there were lessons like of mistakes I made. Hard lessons. But I think somehow when we can use our pain to help others, there's something redemptive about that. There's something life affirming when you can find a way and you won't be thinking about on day one and the depths of the pit. Really, it's taking one day at a time. You know what? One thing can I do that's positive. You're a person of faith. What do I feel like the Lord calling me to do today, tomorrow? One positive step can I do to move forward? Maybe it's pray. Maybe it's initially prayer. Maybe it's getting around other believers just to be with you. But eventually they'll come a time when you'll be thinking, is pretty much everybody that I know that everybody we've had on our podcast believe or not believe that the journey back is identical with every single story. It's just using that pain in service of others, you know? And so you're not thinking that day one and then the depths of the pit, but eventually that is part of the. What's as a believer lord? You know, what would you have me do? How would you help me use this in service of your kingdom from a faith based perspective? Know what does that mean? The kingdom is both. Not yet, and is also now. You know, it's a conundrum, which is a whole nother discussion that what does that mean? So that's part of the journey back. But it took most of the night. So I'm not sugarcoating this. It's not three easy lessons and you'll have joy and fulfillment. It can take years and years. So, you know, but there is hope, even amidst your darkest days.
William Norvell: Hmm. That's good. Yeah. Well, we'll avoid the deep theological discussion because I know, I know I'm not qualified. You may be. Here's what I'm thinking about Warwick. So my mind keeps going. A lot of our audience are entrepreneurs, and they're out there right now and my mind is going to. So it is years after. But how do you set your mind set as you're starting a business, right? Because we all know entrepreneurship. 70 percent of the businesses are going to fail. Right? It's not going to work right. When I think about your story, I mean, you know, employees lost their jobs, investors lost money, basically. My question is summers of how do you set your mindset for God may be calling this to fail. Right? He may be calling me into this to teach me or other people or my investors or my employees. I mean, who knows right? What Guy could be calling that adventure, too? But how do you set your mindset so that you won't be? I loved what you talked about. I felt that crippling weight of letting God down, but also letting people down who have believed in you. I'm sure you had those people that you didn't. I'm sure you didn't raise $800 million by yourself, right? And then four thousand employees lost their jobs. Just walk us through all of that and how somebody who's hiring someone for the first time was taking on the best. How do they think through that in a mindset?
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, fortunately, since it was a big company, I mean, it went bankrupt, but yet other people took it out. And so fortunately, that's one thing I for four thousand people in some families, you know, many of them had their jobs. But I get the point. I think if you're an entrepreneur, statistically, you will fail. There's no entrepreneur that I know of and you can think of, you know, some big ones. You hasn't had a few failures on the way thought of being an entrepreneur. If you're not willing to fail, then you shouldn't be an entrepreneur. It just comes with the territory. But I guess the question is, how do you navigate that? I think for a person of. Faith, it really starts as the internal game. Am I doing this for ego? You know, when I'm starting to be successful, I think I'm hot stuff. Look at me while I'm I'm pretty amazing. All my friends think I'm incredible. Yeah, I'm starting this business. It's all going downs, but I think you can begin to believe your own press. So I think you've got to say, you know, why am I doing this? Do I feel called by God to do it? Is it about me and my ego? Or is it somehow serving other people, serving my community, serving the Lord? So you really as a Faith Driven Entrepreneur? The first thing you got to say is why am I doing this? It's all about me. I would say, then don't do it. Don't start the business. Just stop. Don't do it. Because that will not end well, you know, guaranteed. So start in the internal and you know, why am I doing this? And then as I think about vision, I connect it to several dots in terms of maximizing chance of success. It's got to be in line with your design. God doesn't make mistakes if he's designed you a certain way. Certain skills, athletic, artistic, whatever it is, it's got to be anchored in your beliefs, which for me is my Christian faith. You want to feel like you're off the charts. Passion about it. And again, as I keep saying, it's got us some higher purpose because that way will motivate you through the tough times so that there is a roadmap. But I guess the short answer is it starts with the internal motivation is everything you know and you want to have friends. You can hopefully speak truth to you and say, Okay, Warwick, William, you know, why are you doing this again? It's feeling a little bit more ego, a little less God. If you're not willing to do that again, you got to have people to talk truth to that. Answer the question.
William Norvell: Yeah, I think it does. You know, I want to go one layer deeper because I love also your story that you know, when you started, you said, like, I don't think I went into it with that mindset, right? I think I went in, OK, because that's one story, right? As I say, I wasn't ego driven maniac. I went nuts. It all failed. That's a story. What I find fascinating about yours is you didn't have that mindset, right? Yet investors still lost money. Yet people still put their hope in you to lead their business. Maybe they didn't all lose their job, but they thought it was one thing it turned out to be. So I'm almost curious to say some version of Have you ever talked to one or two of those people that let you down or you let down? Right? Not by being an egomaniac, but by just getting ahead of your skis. And maybe just let our audience into how that conversation went, because I know our audience has had those conversations where an investor trusted them to do something and it didn't work right. And it just didn't. And I'm wondering how they could navigate that. Hearing your story of walking through that, does that make sense?
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah. I mean, I guess I tried to do a lot of my own soul searching about mistakes I've made and been pretty open. Other family members definitely had hard feelings. I mean, they didn't lose money. I mean, this is pre October 87 stock market crash. They got sold out at the height of the market, so financially they did as well as you could possibly do. So they weren't. They weren't bitter about the financial loss. It was more. Why did you do what you did? And I've had some conversations, but you know, the hardest part was really just forgiving myself for those mistakes. I think most people know, yeah, like my Wikipedia entry until recently, which pretty much, you know, young, naive, hard headed kid could have had it all and just made some dumb decisions. It was pretty much that. I don't think people questioned my motives. They just thought, yeah, and naive, idealistic. And yeah, so I think people understand in a sense. But yeah, it's just more I'm not so much focused on what other people think of me. I'm probably harder on myself than anybody. I'd say it's the internal thing that I kept crucifying myself, if you will, for years. Yeah.
William Norvell: No, it's good. Well, speaking of that word, I would love to switch to a little more on crystal leadership. You've teased a little bit, but I want to give you a chance to talk a little bit more about the enterprise that you're running now and where you're trying to bring people to up to and including. I think you teased it again. There's kind of four elements you've discovered that help people through these moments. Would love to just give you a freedom to talk a little bit more about Crucible leadership.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah. I mean, thank you. And basically, you know, crystal ball leadership, you know, it starts with the internal it starts with kind of embracing a crucible is the first element in the book, which is, you know, crucibles, whether it's your fault or not, your fault or incredibly painful. So you've got to do a gut check and learn the lessons. So in my case, I'm not a Rupert Murdoch take no prisoners chief executive. I'm a reflective adviser. I'm not wired to be chief executive of a thousand person company. That's just not me. So I love a great cast emotionally and financially that you've got to be who you are. And so that's back to design. You know, if you're an entrepreneur, great, if you want to be an entrepreneur, but you don't like risks and you know you don't like making decisions. Maybe an entrepreneurial path is not for you and it's not for everybody. You've got to have a certain mindset to be a successful entrepreneur. There are some things you just got to have, you know? And that's OK. You know, it's great to be a Faith Driven Entrepreneur, but there's other areas of faith you can be in to. Nothing wrong with being an entrepreneur if you follow my drift, so don't ignore your design. And then in terms of discovering your purpose is kind of discussed a bit. Understand your beliefs. You learn lesson for your Cristobal. Understand your design. And then you know what's a vision that you're off the charts passionate about? Maybe it could be something that hasn't existed. In some ways, it'll fulfill a higher purpose because to me, you know, you could look at many large companies like Southwest Airlines. Their vision was to make travel affordable and bring families together. That's a pretty good purpose. May not be an overtly Christian purpose, but that's something that animates their organization and has for decades so some of the biggest organizations have. They believe from their perspective, they have meaning and purpose, not in a Christian sense, but so you want to have that kind of vision that you believe is important. And you know, the I guess final aspect is, do you want to feel like you have what we call a group of fellow travelers? People are equally passionate about your vision and when you have those folks and this is especially hard for entrepreneurs, most of them typically do this poorly because you have to be willing to listen to the team that you brought on that you think a good as passionate about your vision because they might say, you know, work well in here what you're saying and your whole team says, I think I think you're wrong about this. It's a pretty fair chance. They're right and you're wrong. So most entrepreneurs and you know this, I'm sure, well, they tap out and I don't know what the number is 10 million pick a number and they never get bigger than that because they can't, you know, hire a CEO without that experience. I can't listen to their team. It's all about ego and they just flame out. That's far and away the normal path for an entrepreneur. Well, you don't have to be a statistic like everybody else. So that comes back to the inside humility, which is why you have a good team. So that makes sense at all. But that's what it does.
Henry Kaestner: I love a good framework. I think that was super helpful. I think that in particular, the concept, the design, you know, you speak as something there that's really important in that I think that there's a tendency in the church to maybe go to one of two extremes for a long time. Entrepreneurship and running a business was on the bottom end of the food chain, and it was thought to be a pastor to be in full time ministry. But in many, in many cultures like, for instance, in India, we hear from Faith driven entrepreneurs. That's very, very difficult. But then the pendulum can go back the other way where all of a sudden you have the Zuckerbergs and all of the entrepreneurs are celebrated by society so much that there becomes a feeling of a pressure that if I'm really going to succeed in something, I've got to be an entrepreneur. I've got to take this entrepreneurial risk. I've got to get out there and do that. And I think that that's a equally a fallacy. And understanding your design, what God has made you to do is really important, and I think you're getting at that. And one of the ways to do that. You know, back to your framework is through this group, this accountability, this fellowship, this community of people who know you, who know your blind spots, who can encourage you, challenge you and help you where you can make the most of your God given talents and abilities, whether you're not anymore or not, if you're not sure you absolutely need them to continue along their journey. And in many cases, maybe you need those great friends to help you before you start down that entrepreneurial journey when you're highest and best use is in a better place. The any thoughts on that? I was a long riff, but I find him right now in culture. People are lifting up. The entrepreneurs like this is you've really achieved if you're this. Entrepreneur, but that's not the way the God designed us.
Warwick Fairfax: Yeah, I mean, really a tremendous question, Henry. I mean, yeah, I mean, there was a time in which if you really want to be full on for Jesus, you got to be a missionary in Africa or India or somewhere. And everything else is second place in the faith world, which clearly, I don't think is a biblically accurate framework. But if you're an entrepreneur, you could say, well, to really, you know, put Jesus and the kingdom on the map. I've got to have, you know, millions or billions in my bank statement because that will show that God has blessed me. Well, that's equally faulty theology. And so you've got to be happy with who you are and your purposes. I mean, I said to my publisher, Morgan James is a believer. You know, I don't care whether I sell one book or 10000, and I'm doing my level best to sell as many as I can for the great PR team and, you know, branding and everything else. I just want to be faithful to what God has put on my heart. And you know, the results are up to him. Easy to say, but pretty much every day I'm on my knees metaphorically saying, you know, all glory to you or glory to you. And so for entrepreneurs, it's not about the coming, you know, the next Zuckerberg or Gates or Steve Jobs, you know, your business may top out at a million, two million, whatever it is, and you may only be known in your community. That's not failure. Just because your buddy has a business that ten times is successful. Just be faithful to what God has put on your heart. It's not about zeros. God doesn't measure success from my perspective, faith driven entrepreneurs by the number of numbers a number of employees, or if you're on the front cover of Businessweek, it's being faithful to what God has put in your heart and let the results be up to him. It's not a competition, right? The best Faith Driven Entrepreneur is not the most successful one. I can't imagine you measure, you know, we're going to put out a top 10 faith driven entrepreneurs for the year and we rank it in terms of assets and earnings and earnings per share. You would never do that, right? I mean, you'd be struck by lightning from above. If you did, you know you'd be out of business in a heartbeat? And said it literally does that make sense?
William Norvell: Henry, we both do know how that goes. Our fall plans.
Henry Kaestner: Very, very, very, very well, said Heavenly Father. Allow our audience to be just found faithful and obedient. Mayor identity, be found in you and not in and zeros or no employees at all. Just give us fever and protection and allow us just to know you and Jesus his name. There's a lot of wisdom in that. Thank you very much.
William Norvell: You applied for the top 10 FDE award. We will get back to you some other time with a new form. Now that was so good. It's so thoughtful. So as we come to a close, I would just ask in your time with graceful leadership, you've heard stories that most of our audience have not heard, right? Any other just sort of one or two comments from the 70 plus stories you've heard to encourage people who want to get entrepreneurship is a journey that very, very rarely does not have a couple of crucibles in it. Right. What are some some other stories, or maybe just some points of wisdom you might pass along,
Warwick Fairfax: you know, a couple. I think sometimes we can get in a comparison game. Very early on, we had this guy. David Charbonneau is a believer. He and his dad were Navy SEALs, and he was injured in parachute training. Accident became a quadriplegic, which is devastating. I mean, he was one of the best of the best. His dad said, Look, my son, though honestly, could be one of the best seals out and being a seal. His dad, you don't say that idly. I remember saying to David childbed, Look, what I went through is nothing compared to what you went through. Nothing. And you know what he said to me? You said, you know what was your worst day? Is your worst day. It's not a comparison. So don't try and compare yourself saying, Oh, look what I went through. I just suddenly lost a billion dollar business or I lost a business. But I have my health and, you know, it's not a competition. I guess the other thought I'd have is when you're on your darkest day crucibles create a binary situation. You have two choices and no one is to hide under the covers. And for the next 20, 30, 50 years, wait until it all melts away. It's all our lives will end at one point. That's an option. And that way lies, misery, anguish, anger. It's a horrific way to live. The other option says this was awful. It was painful. It was unfair. It it's my fault, not my fault. But I choose to get out of bed. I choose to try to use my pain to help others pain for a purpose and see you. When you're in your darkest days, you've got a choice. One leads to fulfillment and joy when you love, especially as believers when you live a life for the kingdom, a life on purpose, serving others. And the other is a life of maybe not eternal misery, but at least human misery for decades of just saying being angry and bitter, not forgiving. So in your darkest moment, you have a choice, joy and fulfillment or anguish and bitterness. For me, I'd rather choose the joy and fulfillment path that sounds simplistic, but crucibles false, a binary decision for human beings.
William Norvell: Oh, it's amazing. Thank you for going to that. And our last question, as we did move to close, what we love to ask is we love to see how God's word is alive and moving and how it transcends our guests and our listeners. So we'd invite you to share some piece of scripture story or a specific verse. Anything that may be come into live to you in this moment could be this morning could be the season. We just love to remind ourselves and remind our listeners that God's words always alive and moving, and love to see how it's moving in your life.
Warwick Fairfax: William, thank you. Well, that came to mind just over the last week. Second Corinthians 12 nine But he said to me, my grace is sufficient for you, so my power is made perfect in weakness. It's just that concept. His powers made perfect in weakness. That's really can be the blessing of principles. I mean, I failed on an epic scale. I'm more reserved person. I'm not like Mr. Charismatic Speaker, but yet somehow, by saying, My Lord, as you know, my life is your life, just give me your grace and your strength and your power when you surrender to him and realize we are weak, very frail. We're insecure. But yeah, his power is made perfect in our weakness. Mean, that is a tremendous to me verse of encouragement.
William Norvell: Amen Amen God is a tough for many headstrong entrepreneurs to probably come to terms with. So imagine it's a fantastic place to finish and so grateful for your time. So grateful for your story that you would share it with us and our audience, and grateful for you and what God's doing in your life.
Henry Kaestner: Hey, thank you very much. You blessed us. You bless our audience.
Warwick Fairfax: Well, thank you so much and thank you for what you do. I mean, you know, we need more faith driven entrepreneurs because they're going to interact with more nonbelievers than your average pastor in church will be nothing wrong with being a pastor in church. But, you know, done right with the right thinking. It's a really important ministry. And so you know, what you do is important to me. It's at the cutting edge. Frankly, spiritually,
Henry Kaestner: we are grateful for the opportunity to serve the community and see the listeners come in for more than 100 countries. Entrepreneurship is often a lonely journey, but it doesn't have to be the best way to stay. Connected is to join a group study with other faith driven entrepreneurs like yourself. There's no cost, no catch in-person or online. You can meet for an hour a week with your peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for a monthly newsletter, Faith Driven Entrepreneur Dawg. This podcast wouldn't be possible without the help of many of our friends. Executive producer Justin Forman intermixed and arranged by summer. Greg's audio and editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is In the House by David Crowder.