Episode 96 - What Defines a Healthy Leader with Greg Leith of Convene
It’s Tuesday. Which means it’s time to gather. Or, as you might say, it’s time to Convene. And that’s exactly what we’re talking about today. Our guest, Greg Leith is from the greater Los Angeles area, and he leads a ministry to Christian CEOs and Entrepreneurs called Convene.
His work there has taught him what it means to be a healthy leader, as well as what we as entrepreneurs can do to foster and encourage our growth as both leaders and people.
Listen in to catch the wisdom and insight Greg shared with us…
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Episode Transcript
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Henry: [00:02:09] We love starting out the show, talking about your story, and I've got to know a little bit about it. We've known each other for six or seven years. Back to your time at all and always respected you in your career and your leadership. And a lot of people are like me and they know about much the work that you've done with CEOs and entrepreneurs over the different things you've done. But I don't know that a lot of them know about your original business background. At ServiceMaster. And I think that that's really obviously seminal to your work today where you learned and sat under one of the greats, the all time greats that taught us all of it about that background, that time that you worked at Serves Master, the lessons you learn, what it's like to work under Bill Pollard. [00:02:46][36.4]
Greg: [00:02:47] Well, thanks, Henry. It was a great privilege and I didn't know how great of a privilege it was, I think till it was over or till I sit with Bill Pollard these days. I like to say in jest that he made me cry sometimes when I was off budget, but I made him cry when I introduced him one day. [00:03:04][16.9]
[00:03:05] And the way I introduced him is I basically said that he is responsible for shaping me, in part to be somebody who thinks critically and somebody who thinks deeply to be somebody who thinks that a firm might just have a soul, figuratively speaking, to love people, to attribute dignity and value and worth to them and to have phrases rattling around in my head like if we don't have profit, we don't have a company to honor God. So get on budget. So I've enjoyed Bill in the in the last five or 10 years where we've continued to journey together and talk together and bring him to speak. And I just love listening to him because he's so deep. [00:03:47][42.4]
Henry: [00:03:48] He is. Tell us what you're doing now. Tell us about convene or maybe, before we get there, bring us up to speed from ServiceMaster to convene and what convene is? [00:03:59][10.9]
Greg: [00:04:00] Yeah. So I left ServiceMaster after 20 years and maybe a little life lesson for some folks who have been 20, 30 years in companies. I was just talking to somebody this morning about this. Another 30 year veteran of ServiceMaster and I who had known each other the whole time, looked at each other one day in a restaurant in Seattle and said, I think we got God and ServiceMaster mixed-up. And it was really poignant moment because the company that you work for, no matter how good it is, the company that you own, no matter how amazing it is, you can't get God and the company mixed up. Yes. It's a place to glorify God. Yes, it's a place to honor God. But it's not to be confused with doing something. That is the only thing that you could do. So after I left ServiceMaster, I began working a little bit with Insight for Living and Chuck Swindoll a little bit with Leighton Ford and Arrow leadership, where for a couple of years we created leadership training experiences for young leaders. So I got a chance to hang around with Leighton Ford, who loves young leaders. And then I had a little couple of year stint with Christian Management Association, again, training leaders, Christian leaders in nonprofit spaces. We had about 2000 members and then by Olla called and said, I hear you're in Southern California. Would you love to come and work at Baylor University and never thought about that in my entire life? And I basically use this crazy phrase. I said, as long as I don't have to raise any money, I'd be happy to come. The crazy part about this is, of course, you don't work for a nonprofit, including a university, and not have a role raising money. So I indeed was quickly raising money. And by the time we left, I was the director for strategic alliances and we created a lot of alliances. But we also raised two hundred and twenty million dollars, which was a lot of fun. And I had a part to play in that with a team of many people. So I guess that is in terms of my background, somebody who spent time in the for profit world, in the nonprofit world and in the academy. And during that last 10 years of my buy all the time, my friend from Canada, Brian sat. Sure, founder of CONVENE asked me to be part of the board of directors, and I said yes. And then we had a leadership transition and they asked me if I would lead the company and I said yes. [00:06:21][140.9]
[00:06:21] And so I've been here leading convene for about five years and tell us what is convene. So convene is a place where Christian leaders get a chance to come together in small groups. Coast-to-coast about six to 16 people one day a month. And they work on their businesses and they work on each other's lives and families and they pay to be part of that. [00:06:47][25.1]
[00:06:47] So if you're a person who has heard of vistage or tech, we're like them people who look somewhat like us in the marketplace of faith. It would be C12 and Truth at Work. And so we're all in this journey together trying to make a dent in getting Christian leaders to stop going it alone, to pick up the phone and be in a group and work together on their business and their life and their family. [00:07:09][22.3]
Rusty: [00:07:10] Well, it seems like you've modeled that, Greg, because you told the story there of you and your coworker, both sitting there together, not alone, decided to launch out a ServiceMaster. And I want to ask you some questions about leadership and growth and all that. But before we go there, I was struck by the story there about that conversation about getting ServiceMaster and God mixed up. And how was that manifesting itself? I got a little bit of. Maybe there were some talents that were being used, but was there more to it than that? [00:07:39][28.6]
Greg: [00:07:40] Well, that's a great question. It looks like this. It looks like things in your head that are. I can't leave because I would dishonor God or everybody could work for ServiceMaster. [00:07:54][13.7]
[00:07:55] It can be a franchisee, a health care worker, a lawn care person. They could be a manager in the pest control division. But the thing that is the hardest would be something like, well, I can't leave. This is where God has me forever. And that might be true for some, but it's mostly not true for everybody. [00:08:14][18.7]
[00:08:15] So, you know, we want to honor God, but we don't want to say the only thing I can do is whatever I'm doing right now. [00:08:22][7.7]
Rusty: [00:08:23] It's a great lesson. It's a great leadership lesson, because we have entrepreneurs, I know, listening right now who may think that they're the only leader that that organization could have to survive. And, you know, not being able to hear God in that message. I think it's tough. [00:08:41][17.9]
Greg: [00:08:41] Let's just take it to a nonprofit leader for a minute. Here's a phrase I hear a lot. Mom and pop start a nonprofit and they work at it hard for five years. They forgot to check that there's 25 other people doing what they do. And they say things like God called me to do this thing. They get calling mixed up with rational and gifting. And then when it starts failing, they say these words. They say, God could not have brought me this far to allow me to fail. And I say, where does it say that? Right. It doesn't say that anywhere in any secular or Christian book. [00:09:20][39.4]
[00:09:21] And so lots of people failed in the Bible, including leaders like David. So you can't get God and your job mixed up, right? [00:09:31][9.1]
Rusty: [00:09:32] Well, you know, you do a lot of thinking and also writing about how leaders grow. So transition us there. How do leaders grow? [00:09:39][7.3]
Greg: [00:09:40] Well, we have been doing a lot of thinking about it. And the funny thing is this will be a not commercial for the early days of convene. [00:09:47][7.0]
[00:09:48] When I got here, we were saying this is the same be all get all. You must be in a peer to peer advisor group because that's where everything good happens. [00:09:59][10.8]
[00:10:01] And I thought, you know, I like that, but there's something wrong with that, and I just began thinking over the course of a year and other organizations like us were saying, oh, you've got to get everybody in a group and other organizations that are more Bible study oriented in the morning, we're saying, hey, everybody's gonna be in a group. And I kept saying, oh, something's wrong with this. And I'm looking at a diagram I started sketching out right in front of me right now. [00:10:25][24.4]
[00:10:25] It was this tree in the middle and around the tree. I started writing ways that people grow. So if we're rooted and grounded in Christ, we're not just in a group. [00:10:39][13.6]
[00:10:40] We also read our Bible and we listen to God. We also might hire a consultant to help us where we're stuck. We might do an assessment of our personality or our organization to say, where are we? We might hire a coach to say, let me help you see what you're missing. And we for sure are going to be listening to podcasts, reading books, studying hard to understand, whatever we're trying to learn. So when we put all that together, then we are professionally, spiritually, mentally and emotionally growing. And some people grow in groups and some people grow by reading books and some, et cetera. So that's what we've been thinking a lot about. And that makes a nice little acrostic for the word grow. The G is get time with God and know you're not God. R is we reflect deeply on who we are and how God made us. The O in grow is we open our life to community of peers and subject matter experts and coaches. And The W we work hard at being lifelong learners. [00:11:44][63.8]
[00:11:44] So that's how leaders grow. So to just finish the story real quick, I'm thinking about this. Turn it into a better looking graphic and it's starting to look pretty good. And I'm talking to a friend of mine, Dr. Charlotte Stewart from Harvard. And she says, well, Greg, did you get that from Harvard? And I said, no. And she said, well, that's the Harvard best in class leadership development experiences all across the world. That's how leaders grow. [00:12:09][25.1]
[00:12:10] And so even though we didn't need the Harvard moniker or endorsement because it came from God's word, it just kind of goes to show you that really all truth that is real comes and emanates from God's word. [00:12:24][14.2]
Rusty: [00:12:25] You know, I'm interested in that juxtaposition. It's called the intersection between what you've come up with with your, and we will post that graphic that you have there of the learning ecosystem on our Web site, but the intersection between what Harvard had come up with and what you've come up with, and in particular, you talk about the Holy Spirit as part of that growth. How does that reflect inside of that Harvard study? [00:12:50][24.7]
Greg: [00:12:51] Well, it doesn't. That's the part that's not in the Harvard piece, though. It is interesting from my biology days, I can tell you this unequivocally. I've got pictures of the gates of Harvard and over the gates of Harvard. As many people know, it's as Veritas, which is truth. Right. But the problem is the new leadership at Harvard came out at a particular point in time and said, we're trying to rediscover what that means. And the thing is, if you're standing at the gates of Harvard and you look over to the right from Arch that is chiseled in stone veritas on the right, there's a plaque and it says after we build our houses and formed our government and build it our churches, and we built this university so that when our young pastors lie in the dust, they can be replaced. So here's this place, Harvard, that was founded on teaching pastors and now says we're not sure what truth really is. So that doesn't take away from the fact that they're a world class learning institution. [00:13:55][64.1]
[00:13:56] And their study in 2017 said best in class leadership development includes learning in context, learning by doing, learning by reflecting, learning over time, learning with others and learning by teaching. So all that is contained in the grow acrostic and Henry and I were talking about this, oh, gosh, maybe three or four months ago. [00:14:21][24.8]
[00:14:22] What's happening today is people are saying, I read an article, I read a book, I listen to a podcast, I read another article and I think I learned something. Well, yes, you did. But you're still rude to your employees. Yes, you did learn something, but you still don't really understand your PNL and balance sheet. And everybody knows that. And the emperor has no clothes and you don't want to admit it. So when you're in community and a group, people tell you the truth. And I was doing a podcast today with Chris McCluskey, the father of Christian coaching. He's trained 4000 Christian coaches. More than anybody in the world, and he said we teach Christian coaches that coaching is not the only way leaders learn. Which is at the same time I respond and said, we teach peer to peer. But we have coaching. And you trained all our coaches and we have consultants with 19 consultants now in our stable and convene. [00:15:22][60.6]
[00:15:23] So we want to say there's a multiplicity of ways that leaders learn. Convene groups meet over time. And I could tell you stories till the cows come home or people who've looked across the table at another peer who told them the truth. And they finally got it. [00:15:40][17.0]
Henry: [00:15:41] There's some beauty in that. And it's a hard reality. And yet God designed us to be in community with others. If I'm in a community with another nine or 10 people, then I'm going to send that much more of a chance of knowing who God is because they're just as created in the image God as I am. And I can't really learn and find God if I don't do it in community. It's not the only way self-learning can, I think is a big part. I think you get at that. But I do think that's one of the things that I think is unique about this episode, is your ability to speak into learning with others. And I love what you're talking about with the emperor with no clothes. We're all familiar with the concept of a blind spot. And we all know that if we're just doing things on our own because we are blind to our problems will never address the fact that we've got a blind spot because we just don't know we have it right. [00:16:32][50.7]
Greg: [00:16:33] I will never forget the story of one gentleman who put his head on the desk and started weeping and he said, How come nobody ever told me that he had been just confronted with the truth about his leadership after a 360 assessment. And we basically said you because you never asked anybody. You just kept doing and you were holding the mirror up to God, sort of. You really weren't holding the mirror up to your other people that work with you and asking them what they think. And they basically said, you're arrogant. You don't listen to us. You do everything the way you want. You just ask us what we think and you just do what you want anyway. So why do you bother asking? And you said, why didn't anybody tell me? And we said, because you never ask. The funny thing is, that night he asked his wife, what do you think of this? And, you know, can convene costs money? It's not free and doesn't cost a lot, but it cost something. And his wife said, well, I could've told you that for free if you'd start listening. [00:17:35][62.2]
Rusty: [00:17:36] You differentiate as you talk and write about the difference between a faith driven entrepreneur in a and a secular entrepreneur, and you use the word sanctification dove into that and take it apart for us. [00:17:49][12.8]
Greg: [00:17:50] Yeah, well, you know, if we keep being the same person, we're holding up the mirror to our self and we look and we say, I like that. You know, there's less hair, but I'm smiling and I like myself. But we need to hold the mirror up to God and we need to reflect his attributes and we need to hold the mirror up to others and say, what are you seeing? And that process of sanctification is how we will become more like Christ. Andrew Murray said it this way, if I can remember this correctly, he said. The first stage of a Christian's life is I can do it. And the second stage of a Christian's life is something like I'm trying, but I'm not getting this right. I don't think I can do it. The third stage of a person's life as this is impossible, I can never do it. [00:18:48][57.4]
[00:18:48] The fourth stage, according to Andrew Murray, is I can only do this with the help of God who strengthens me. And so that's where the Christian has this incredible power, right. [00:19:00][11.6]
[00:19:01] The Holy Spirit, in the word of God and the fact that the Bible says we can have the mind of Christ. I mean, that in and of itself is a mind exploding thought that I can have the mind of Christ. Wait. He is God. And so that's what sanctification is. That's the edge that the Christian has that that Holy Spirit word of God combo is pretty incredible, man. [00:19:30][28.6]
Rusty: [00:19:31] Yeah. The idea that we all go back to the same touchstone, if you will. Right. You know, I mean, that's the power that, you know, no pun intended. But when you convene and people are there together, we know that, you know, Christ will enter into those conversations. But the fact that we all go back to God's word and what he's done for us gives some direction to our entrepreneurs who are listening. They're talking to themselves. They're talking to others. They're trying to sort of go through their own check up, if you will. What kind of question should they be asking themselves? [00:20:02][30.8]
Greg: [00:20:03] Well, I think you'd want to say to yourself, am I healthier than I was last month? Last year, maybe five years ago. Am I healthier? Am I different? When I look in the mirror, when I hold a mirror up to others, when I hold a mirror up to God, when I write in my journal. And my healthier or am I still doing the same things? Am I the person who comes to the meeting and says, I'm just a jerk? Everybody knows it. Get over it. I would say you are totally misappropriating the power of God to create change in a life. I'd ask yourself, are you in a group that can tell you the truth about yourself? Again, I was talking to Chris McCluskey the other day, father of modern Christian coaching, training 4000 coaches. And he says people can lie to their coach. Well, of course you can. Hey, Henry, how's it going? And Henry says, oh, great. We had a guy say he was doing great for three months in one of our convening groups. And the fourth month, he said he was almost bankrupt. And so we created some strategies to put in place PNL and balance sheet reviews. So are you in a peer group where you are told the truth? Are you reading books or are you just collecting books? Are you underlining books or are you just putting them on a shelf and saying, I never got to it? Is your Bible marked up or is your bible pristine with the gold edges? Perfect. And you can't, you know, find Hosai and you never read it. So as your bible marked up. Am I asking myself how do I raise the question of God in the company I lead and in the lives of the people I lead? How do you raise the question of God? And are you a kingdom builder building something that would last forever? Or are you just building a sandcastle that when the waves come as Max Lucado says it's just going to wash the thing away and you'll be holding a fistful of sand? [00:22:02][119.0]
Henry: [00:22:03] That's a great framework. You know, as you talk about and I reflect on what you do, I convene and Granth, this is on being involved with leaders in analogy and illustration kind of thumbs up for me. It's almost like an insurance. It's our listeners want to be really successful what they're doing and want to be great faith of not charge. You want to come to know God. They want to love their partners, vendors, customers, employees in a way that points to him. And yet it's really hard to be really successful if you don't have people that are there to help you through the challenging times or to maybe be able to speak the truth and lots to you or call you out in gentleness and love. When you're not being as open and transparent, they still reflect on the guy who said he was doing great for three times. Then I'll say he's almost bankrupt. I think they were called to be in community again. And I tell you, being an entrepreneur is a lonely, lonely, lonely place. And trust me that it's hard to have really good, transparent, vulnerable relationships with your investors. I'm an investor and yet I know that I have good relationships with a lot of my astronauts. A lot of times when things are really stressful, they don't come to me first. I'd love for them to, but they don't. They've got to have a really good face forward for their customers because they're the people who are buying their product. They have to really have good taste for it for their employees. And then they come home from work and the wife gets said or the husband said, you should never let that great paying job at Cisco, and they ask how things are gonna always feel like he can't be completely open and transparent with them. And so to be able to be in a community where you can really be truthful with a group of peers who get it, who understand how hard it is to hire people, how hard it is to fire people is really important, almost like an insurance policy on your business to make sure this head in the right direction. [00:23:48][104.6]
[00:23:49] So that's one of things they've come to appreciate my relationship with you. And I think that I want to really implore our listeners to be able to think about that, whether it's his way at work. Truth at work. F.C.C.I convene obviously with Greg Allen. We've got to make sure we mention Corvino has a link to the site, another one that he had mentioned, C12. Find out what's local. Find out what the groups look like, whether they meet close to you. And I think you'll find that they can be a lot of groups are going to have peers and they can be in different industries and have different perspectives. It's amazing. I learned a great lesson about merchandising recently from the pizza business. I've never invested in pizza business, but it's really interesting to see how looking at different companies from different industries going up yours as well. OK. We want to close out our time with the way that we always do that William is taking care of family tonight. He's been away on a business trip for several days. And we want to make sure that he had family dinner. One of the values that, you know, that we espouse here at Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. I get the honor of asking you, Greg, what you're hearing from God in his word. And it could be something as recent as today if he last week. But what is he, as you have, taking your well-worn Bible? It doesn't have any gold left on it at all. I spend time in it. What are you learning? What are you reading? [00:25:04][75.7]
Greg: [00:25:05] Yeah, well, somebody challenged me in the last week to hang out in Psalm 119. And right away I was like, oh, that's the long one. And I read it before and I don't think I'm going to go for it. And then I was sitting there real early the other day and I said, you know what? Tackle that thing. And I circled every time it said, Obey, and I was circling like there was no tomorrow. The word obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey. And I just thought, holy smokes. God keeps saying in this song, you should hang out in my word. You should learn from my words. Your life should reflect my decrees. And this writer keeps saying. Teach me, teach me, teach me, teach me. [00:26:03][57.9]
[00:26:05] Opened my eyes and then it keeps saying, and I want to obey. I want to obey. I want to obey. I want to obey. And I just kind of thought, oh, that's pretty basic, isn't it? It's get in the word, stay in the word and obey it. And so many of us, me included, can pick up the iPad and look at, you know, Fox versus CNN versus NBC or whatever the heck you read. And then we can read a book about leadership and then we can say, oh, too late. Gotta go. No time for the Bible. And yet here Psalm 119 saying my word really matters. Get in it. And when you're done reading it, do what it says. So at the end, it says, I have not forgotten your commands. And after all is said and done, when all the dust is settled. When we're all not living on earth anymore. If the earth is still here, we want to say that we honored God in everything that we did and that we made a difference for the kingdom of God because our company is not going to heaven. Newsflash whatever company you run, including a nonprofit. The company entity is not going to pass through the pearly gates. You are the only person who's going to come with here's somebody that you brought with you. [00:27:28][83.1]
Henry: [00:27:29] That's a great word and I'd forgotten it. That must be the longest book in the Bible. Here's some verses to leave our listeners with. [00:27:35][6.9]
[00:27:37] I long for your salvation, Lord, and your law gives me the light. Let me live that I may praise you, and you may your laws sustain me. I have strayed like a lost sheep. Seek your servant, for I've not forgotten your commands. Greg, thank you very much for being with us. Great blessing to spend some time with you. I'm glad that our audience get to the same. Rusty, always awesome partner with you, brother. [00:27:59][22.7]
Rusty: [00:28:00] Same here. Thank you, Greg. [00:28:01][0.8]
Greg: [00:28:02] It's good to be with you guys. Thanks for having me.