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Chick-fil-A has created a world-renowned culture and brand that has not only attracted millions of customers, but also thousands of employees eager to be members of their organization. But the culture of Chick-fil-A didn’t start as legendary. It took many years to clarify their purpose, adjust to times of crisis, and seek innovation for Chick-fil-A to set themselves apart in the fast-food industry. In this eight-session series, David Salyers, one of the original two marketing executives at Chick-fil-A, gives a behind-the-scenes view of how Chick-fil-A became an iconic brand. David will challenge you to embrace a new perspective on business and your organization to inspire change and propel your organization to new heights.

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For those of you who are new, we know that it’s tempting to think that this show is onto something novel, that we’re breaking new ground in the faith and work conversation. But if we’re being honest with ourselves, and with you, we’re really not. We’re standing on the shoulders of giants who have come before us. 

Today, we’re going to hear the origin story of a Faith Driven Entrepreneur from the mid 1700s. Stephen Mansfield, author of The Search for God and Guinness, is taking us to a time when the water in Ireland, and really all of Europe was famously undrinkable, and the gin and whiskey that took its place devastated civil society. 

It was a disease ridden, starvation-plagued, alcoholic age, and Christians like Arthur Guinness—as well as monks and even evangelical churches—brewed beer that provided a healthier alternative to the poisonous waters and liquors of the times. Let’s listen in to hear about the Christian faith that spurred the beginnings of what is now a global brand producing one of the most consumed beverages in the world…

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Stephen Mansfield: But I want to say to your listeners, because I assume most of them are in business, that I’m actually very, very excited about what can happen through Christians in the marketplace. The studies indicate recent surveys and studies indicate that people in the near future will be more shaped by the values they absorb through their work and their workplace to the companies they work for than they will be through churches.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Good morning, William. Good morning, Rusty.

Speaker 3: Good morning. Good morning.

Henry Kaestner: We are going on a trip to old town Alexandria. We’re talking before we went live with Stephen Mansfield, who’s with us and talk about our shared love of crab cakes. And Stephen, great to have you on the program. Thank you for your time for a listener that is coming in, because we get a chance to go all around the country and we recently went to Cambodia. What is unique and what drives you to this place that you call home? Oldtown. Alexander?

Stephen Mansfield: Well, Alexander used to be the port town for Washington, D.C., so there’s a main drag Bay Street called King Street, much of it still. Cobblestoned got some of the best restaurants in the world. But, you know, you walk down the street, there’s Robert Lee’s house. There was where Lincoln stayed. You know, it’s just a lot of history, a lot of civil war history, a lot of revolutionary history. Of course, I’m a historian, my doctorates in history. And so I just love living here for the food, the beauty and of course, the access to D.C. And I can leave my house and go for about a 30 minute, 20, 30 minute walk. And I’m standing by the edge of the Potomac, looking out, watching the planes land at Reagan National and, you know, just couldn’t be more beautiful. So I really love living here.

Henry Kaestner: It’s a great spot. And most people go to D.C. won’t make it to old town Alexandria, but you should even take a boat ride right on down. We’ve done that. It’s awesome. OK, so is cool. At some point in time, I want to do a travel podcast. This is not it. This, however, is a podcast focused on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur. And one of the things that I think is important is that while I do think the guy is doing a mighty work in the marketplace and that there is a resurgence of faith driven entrepreneurs, there is actually, of course, a long legacy of people endeavoring to bring their faith into the marketplace. And it’s it’s been going on a long time. At one level, Rodney Starkel, to talk about the rise of Christianity and how Christ followers in the marketplace were different than others. And and that’s one of the reasons why the church grew. And you go through to the Moravians and then you go into the late 80s and early 90s, hundreds, even as he just mentioned, as an historian. And he’s chronicled some of these stories. And he’s a great author. He’s written some really, really cool books, a book on manly men. Maybe we’ll even get into that. But this story that I want to start off with is the story of the Guinness family. And you’ve really talked about in your books about the faith of leaders. You’ve talked about that with Lincoln, you’ve talked about that with Churchill. But the overlap with our listener base is that of the Guinness family. So there’s a lot more behind this awesome beverage that has given up so many great vintage posters that my sister collects on an interesting aside, but tell us a little bit about what drove you into these books and into the story and the story particularly of Guinness, please.

Stephen Mansfield: Well, what got me to Guinness was my love of church history. My daughter is not in church history, but I study church history. And I obviously very fascinated with the Wesley’s and Whitfield and the Great Awakening and how its influence on America. And by studying Wesley, I arrived at the A story, so I came at it a different way. A lot of your listeners maybe have read about Arthur Guinness and the history of the Guinness Company, but I found out about him because I was studying Wesley and Wesley. That movement, that whole Wesley and movement basically began in England as an outreach to the poor, as a as a they visited prisons. They worked with the poor. They raised funds for the poor. And so Wesley began to say to the wealthy, to the upper classes, Look, Maikol, you can save all you can give all you can to the glory of God. Well, it sounds simple that our generation and probably to a lot of your listeners, but at that time most of the quote on quote to use the term we would use today is that you just use Christian businessmen. They would have been told what they were doing was secular, that spiritual work was what was happening among the clergy and in the church. And so they should just do their work and then come to church and behave themselves. But Wesley said, hey, this work you’re doing, not only the impact you’re having on your workers, but the wealth that you generate. These are godly tools. And so make all you can save, all you can give, all you can to the glory of God. This is a holy work. Even said this is a form of ministry. You were in a ministry business. I mean, yes, that was one of the first guys to say this and to lift people in quote on quote secular work from a second class citizen status in the kingdom of God. So that’s how I came to the story and that’s how I decided I wanted to follow up on it because I wanted to see me having great interest in businessmen in the marketplace this generation. I wanted to see how Wesley impacted it, what transformation it produced. And of course, it was stunning. And Arthur Guinness is perhaps his greatest trophy, so to speak.

Henry Kaestner: So that’s really interesting. So, you know, I hadn’t known about the story of. Wesley and that he put a light on this, we’ve heard about Luthor talking about a cobbler and things like that, but it seemed that there wasn’t a lot with the original church founders. And you ended up coming up with this thought that if you really wanted to honor God and of course, then you had to become a pastor. And some of that even continues to this day. But you’re saying that Wesley lean in to the fact and recognize that are a bunch of people in the marketplace, most people were in the marketplace and that they needed to see their vocation as a holy ambition and how God could be glorified through it. And so in studying that, by the way, Tigard, this force or just help us understand what period of history we’re talking about when John Wesley started to lean in to faith in the workplace?

Stephen Mansfield: Well, basically, you think about it in terms of American history. I assume most of your audience is American about the time the founding fathers are creating this country. That’s when Wesley’s coming to the end of his life. He dies just in the first years of the eighteen hundreds. And so his ministry is happening in the last half, basically of the seventeen hundreds, about the time our founding fathers would be growing up as young men and then eventually creating this country. Of course he was in England and so pretty, pretty profound influence, profound influence on Wilbur Wilberforce, who was so critical in abolishing slavery in England at eighteen thirty three and a profound influence on this issue of the marketplace. I mean, he I had been saying something I don’t know if you know that for 20 years I was a pastor. And then I now for the last 20 years, I’ve been doing what I do now. And when I was a pastor, as I stood the pulpit, I’d say there are very few of us called to do what I’m doing, majority of your call to do what you’re doing out there in the world. And I’m speaking I was the pastor of a huge church in Nashville. So I was saying, you guys who are sound engineers, you guys who are guitar players, you guys who are musicians, you guys who are lawyers and doctors and all the things that you are, there’s far more of you. You’ll have far more effect on the direction of the kingdom that I will. I’m here to train you to go do the kingdom work. Well, later I read Wesley saying exactly that. I didn’t know he had said it. But I mean, it’s obvious mathematical kind of comparison to make because, you know, how many pastors do you suppose, for example, me sitting here on the edge of DC at can’t be but a thousand pastors in this entire city, maybe two, but that’s in a city of millions. And so all that to say it’s an obvious comparison, but one that I circled back to and found that Wesley had said and that really moved me. And of course, I repeated as much as possible, especially given the platform that the book I’ve written, the search for God and Goodness has given me.

Rusty Rueff: You know, I’m fascinated by at that time, especially about the Guinness family, which I want you to start us with that whole story and take us through. But, you know, it was pretty courageous, right? Because there were things that had to be controversial, including the Guinness family right there, brewing beer. I mean, growing up Southern Baptist, you know, in the middle of this country, the Guinness family probably wouldn’t have been welcomed in to come and give their testimony on a Sunday because that was bad. You know, you can’t drink. And the use of alcohol and in many places still today. So as you tell us again, is a story sort of weave in all of the cultural things that they had to go through.

Stephen Mansfield: Yeah, it’s actually interesting, it’s a little bit different than you describe it, what you’ve said is exactly what we usually understand, but the fact is that there had been in the 16 hundreds in England a thing called the gin craze. Parliament had unwisely forbidden the import of liquors. So people began to distill it on their own. And the thing they most easily distilled was gin. And so the nation in 16 hundreds became ruined by gin. I mean, it was just called the gin craze. And it’s stunning the devastation that happened in England. I won’t quote it all now, but the famous bishop said the gin made the British people what they never wear before, harsh and cruel and etc. So people who wanted to help fix that gin craze started brewing beer. They didn’t understand all of its chemical properties, but they did know that while it gave a little bit of a refreshment and a little bit of the impact of alcohol, people got healthier. Of course, part of that was the B vitamins that they would’ve understood yet. So brewers, beer brewers were actually seen as people doing social good. They were not only esteemed for the quality of their beer, but they were pristine because they were answering this scourge in the society. So Arthur Guinness grew up as a young boy on the estate of an archbishop, and his father was known as an amazing brewer of beer for this archbishop. His father was the estate manager. And so this archbishop encouraged him and said, look, this is God’s raised. You have to do this, God’s raised. You have to brew this beer and to answer the scourge of our age. And so do it to the glory of God. Well, young Arthur took this seriously, learned the craft for himself, perfected it. And in one of the great moves in business history early in his life, he moved to Dublin, started a brewery right there on the main river. And in one of the most stunning business acts I’ve ever read about, he signed a nine thousand year lease. This is true. I did I didn’t just misspeak a nine thousand year lease buy a copy of which, by the way, you can buy at the Guinness Brewery in Dublin. And that’s the beginning of the Guinness Brewery. Well, before long,

Henry Kaestner: I took an interest in negotiation, by the way.

Stephen Mansfield: Yeah, yeah. I think about that, really. We want to hold out for twelve thousand seventy one. You have to I mean, they’re still living on that lease. If you can imagine. Just to wrap the whole thing up, what Arthur Guinness became very good at was brewing a kind of beer called Porter Stout. It was the dark beer that we know of. Now, if you drink Guinness or you’ve seen it, then you know, it’s a darker beer. And they did this by just modifying the brewing process a little bit. And it was richer. It was some people have called it a beer milkshake. It’s richer, it has more nutrients. It has a stronger taste. And in time, this became so popular that Arthur decided not to brew any other kind of beer that his Guinness brewery in Dublin, he brewed this dark stout and it just exploded in popularity. And so the next the next big issue, we want to talk about it and I’ll pause to take your questions. But what did Arthur do with his astonishing wealth? Because he moves from being the son of an estate manager to being one of the wealthiest guys in Dublin, part of the upper class, the aristocrats. And that’s where the story really starts to take off.

Rusty Rueff: So we definitely want to go there and I want you to go there next. But before we do, can you just dove into a little bit about how Arthur felt a calling? All right. Did he feel a

Stephen Mansfield: calling to do this? Yeah. The archbishop for whom his father worked, basically discipled and mentored young Arthur just in the way of just impacting the young man who was on his estate for 18, 20 years. And when he saw his skill in brewing, just like if you were mentoring some young man and he had an amazing skill at playing guitar or painting or doing accounting, you would say clearly this is a gift from God. Clearly this is a mandate for your life. And that’s what the archbishop told young Arthur. And so Arthur went out in the world wanting to be a man of means and wanting to be a success. But always having in the back of his mind what the archbishop had said, which is a specific and defining talent, is clearly a gift from God. You didn’t create this. This didn’t just stumble into your life. You know, if I can play guitar like Segovia, clearly this is a gift from God. And our father had a facility with languages or law or whatever it is I might be gifted for. And that’s how Arthur went out into the world, what language he would have used. We don’t know because he did write about it. But there’s no question he spoke in terms of mandates. He spoke in terms of having a commitment from God. And that’s why he was really prime when he crossed paths with Wesley, which happened a little bit later after he’d begun to make money because he knew he had this commission or God, he was brewing beer. He was successful, but he didn’t see any Kingdome impact coming from it yet. It took Wesley showing up in Dublin and speaking at St Patrick’s Cathedral and beginning to talk to him about MAIKOL. You can save all you can give all you can to the glory of God that this connection really happened to produce the unbelievable benevolence of the Guinness Company.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. I think that’s fantastic because one of the marks that we have of Faith driven entrepreneurs we have it on our website is this idea of called to create. And I really love the way you explain that these gifts that we have, that that is part of the calling. Right. That if the gifts that we’ve been given, whether it’s any of the things that you mentioned or it’s just, you know, a strategic mind or ability to communicate, or if you don’t recognize that as part of the calling, you may just be walking away from what God wants you to do. And we’ve got to recognize that

Stephen Mansfield: I think that’s unbelievably important, and I want to say very quickly that in our generation, a lot of the young and a lot of Christians believe that this recognition, this becoming aware of your calling or gifting or destiny happens in dramatic supernatural experiences. And that could happen. I mean, we certainly know that Paul was met on the Damascus road and told what he was meant to do, the apostle Paul in scripture. However, for most of us, it’s about these gifts emerging over time. It’s not a dramatic angel appearing in our bedroom. It is these gifts emerge. I now know that I have a facility with words and I have a facility to coach leaders. I know that because that emerged over time. At no time did I have an angelic voice or any kind of supernatural experience. I believe in a calling and over time I began to find out that I had a facility with words and a facility also in the field of history. Well, again, it never came in a dramatic moment. So I think we need to encourage people that it’s not like Arthur, just suddenly an angel appeared. I keep on saying that, but I’m trying to use that as a metaphor for supernatural, instantaneous experiences for most of us. We do whatever our hand finds to do and our gifts emerge. And then we go, OK, if I’ve got that kind of pronounced gift in this certain field, clearly it is the work of God. It’s something I could have created or my parents could have forced on me or just my combination of experience has produced. So hopefully that’s an encouragement to some of your listeners.

Henry Kaestner: It’s definitely an encouragement. I think you’re right on with that.

William Norvell: So we did jump ahead a little bit. Just said, you know, you have a facility with words and ability to coach leaders. Obviously, we I think we talked about your authorship. Could you give us maybe a two minute flyover of what else sort of you do and kind of what your day job is with the leaders and things like that?

Stephen Mansfield: I am best known as The New York Times best selling author. I’ve been very fortunate. I’ve written a couple of dozen books and two or three, maybe four of them have been New York Times best sellers.

Henry Kaestner: Which ones? Tell us. Give us an

Stephen Mansfield: overview. I wrote the faith of George W. Bush years ago, which is massive. I’m not bragging. I’m just saying it’s the one that repositioned me. I co-wrote a book with Tom DeLay, who was then the speaker of the House. No retreat. No surrender is what it’s called, God and Goodness, and also wrote a book on Churchill. And so all of those books sold very well. I’ve got others that have sold very well that haven’t been on the New York Times bestseller list because of what they’re about. All my books for Men, for example, are very strong sellers, but they sell kind of at a networking level in the Christian market and they haven’t been on the New York Times bestseller list. So that repositioning me, I’m a regular commentator on faith issues, faith and culture issues for Fox and CNN. It’s one of the reasons I’m in DC. I have two firms. One creates and manages literary projects, and my wife is the CEO of that one and the other is the Mansfield Group. And what we do is we consult and guide leaders specifically focused on their speaking ability, but it ranges into their leadership as a whole and sometimes into consulting on policy. So in DC, every congressman wants to be a senator. Every senator wants to run for president. Every general wants to go into the private sector. And all of them need to be able to speak better because our schools don’t, for the most part, teach public speaking and oral communication classes anymore. So we do a huge amount of coaching, high level leaders and then we get drawn into policy and what have you. So if you’re living in my house, it can it can seem like I’m some kind of front line security expert. If a bunch of people invade the capital, for example, my phone starts.

Henry Kaestner: That’ll never happen.

Stephen Mansfield: It’ll never happen. My phone starts ringing from Fox and CNN because I’m supposed to comment on it. And then the other phone also starts ringing because I’m the policy advisor to a whole bunch of people who are up on the Hill. And so that’s that. And then I have my international work. I am an outspoken advocate and a global advocate for the Kurds. It’s a great deal to work with the Kurds, advocate for them. I’m not an official lobbyist for anyone, but I did a TED talk and wrote a book about the Kurds and then they said, will you please help us? They were in crisis. And so I testified before Congress and urged people to advise congressional leaders, even the White House, on Kurdish policy, which means the last four years have been difficult. But nevertheless, nevertheless, I do all of that and then a huge amount of speaking, a huge amount of showing up at this fundraiser, that church, this university, etc.. So that’s that’s an overview of what I do.

Henry Kaestner: So some chance that the guys who don’t have it wrong, that indeed you are the most interesting man in the world.

Stephen Mansfield: Well, anyway, I’m not sure anybody else is, but I am.

Henry Kaestner: I’m fascinated by it. So let me just circle back to something I think that you brought up that is very, very profound, is really important, and maybe it’s obvious. But let’s look into a little bit more, which is that a Faith Driven Entrepreneur Arthur Guinness or somebody listening to this in twenty, twenty one doesn’t necessarily need to have a Damascus road moment. It’s the very reality of the fact that they have any type of gifts and talents and interest. Those in and of themselves had been created by God and are a coin unto themselves. And it’s a desire to know God and honor him with all that we have. That allows us to have this reflection that, oh, my goodness, of course, I’ve been called to this space and of course I can use it to honor God. Tell us more about the formation of that, maybe through Wesley, maybe through others and maybe through Guinness. And just as an author, just reflect on that a little bit more about the integrating faith into this story. Just riff on that a little bit, because that was a really important point.

Stephen Mansfield: Yeah. This through your personal faith and your personal experience with God. And for us Christians, that’s through Jesus Christ. But then there is the power of a biblical worldview, a powerful of the framing of the world, the lens through which you view the world. And some of the people I’ve written about and admire in history are deeply devoted Christians, people who are on their face before God, their leadership springs out of that personal fountain, so to speak, with God. But others have been so mentored in a distinctly biblical worldview that they view the world through that lens. That’s distinctly Christian lens, even if they have it, for whatever reason, come to an intensely transforming personal experience. It’s the way they understand the world. And most leaders fall into one of those two categories unless they’re off completely other faiths where they weren’t impacted by Christianity at all. And so a person, a leader, you know, a lot of leadership is about values. A lot of leadership is about vision. A lot of leadership is about a sense of purpose. Whether you want to we’re going to call that in Christian terms, predestination or destiny. There’s still a sense of purpose involved in leadership. And Christianity can frame that for a person without them necessarily having a personally transforming experience with Jesus Christ. I’m not commending it. I’m in that first category. A devoted Christian, happy to bear the language born again. That’s a biblical and deeply committed to the person of Jesus. But in leadership in general, it is possible for a person to view the world through a biblical worldview lens and sense that the biblical worldview is so powerful is the truth. This can produce great leadership, and many of our great leaders in history, certainly in American history, were strong people of broad biblical faith viewing the world again through a broad lens. But I can’t be sure. I can’t say to you I’m not 100 percent sure I’ll see George Patton in heaven. But I 100 percent believe he was disciple in the Christian faith and understood his role and the role of the U.S. in World War Two and distinctly Christian terms. That’s just how it is. And so we’d have to go through history and talk about these different figures. But but I think that’s a profoundly important issue. And the more you have a Christian culture, England, America, other countries that have been at certain periods in their history strongly Christian, the more you might have people who have been tutored and schooled in a biblical worldview without necessarily having come into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And I’m not saying that’s enough. I’m just saying it can produce amazing leaderships. And so much of what leadership is about is drawn from the kinds of things the Christian world view produce.

Henry Kaestner: So it strikes me now, though, that 50 years on, six years on from a World War two generation in which Eisenhower and Patton and MacArthur and Churchill and others that might not be thought of this as a Billy Graham type of of a figure, all acknowledge that there is a that we’re one nation under God and that that that that faith was something that really helped to define culture. That doesn’t seem to be the case so much now. Do you have any reflections on leadership and where we’re going is in American culture now?

Stephen Mansfield: Yeah, we are we have a far less of a Christian consensus on American culture now, but I want to say to your listeners, because I assume most of them are in business, that I’m actually very, very excited about what could happen through Christians in the marketplace. These studies indicate recent surveys and studies indicate that people in the near future will be more shaped by the values they absorb through their work and their workplace to the companies they work for than they will be through churches. Now, I’m not an anti church guy. Trust me, I’m a member of two churches, Nashville and in D.C. and so I’m definitely going to heaven. That’s a joke. I’m not I’m not basing my salvation on. I don’t want to do. However, church is declining a bit and influence. Church attendance is declining a bit. But where people are absorbing their values to use the broad term is in their workplace. So the big companies and the smaller ones are far more formulative in the lives of people. So I have tremendous hopes for the future of Christians in the marketplace and leading companies like Guinness. It’s one of the main reasons I wrote the book Leading Transforming companies like Guinness that can end up changing not just the lives of those who work for them, but entire nation. And I think I believe the Guinness has. So I’m very excited about that. And I also trust for our return of the strength of the church. But it’s the faith. It’s the values. It’s the connection to Jesus that is most important to me. And I think Christian businesses are actually without being inappropriate or violating the First Amendment or anything of that nature, are going to draw people into a Christian life because of the power of what people see as they work.

Rusty Rueff: It’s a perfect circle back to Vick and his family. So, you know, as you wrote in your book, there’s really three pieces or three parts of that family, the Berring part, the religious missionary, and then also banking. So using what you did through that lens of basically the impact of work, if you will, in marketplace, in the faith, how did you see their faith affecting all of those groups?

Stephen Mansfield: Well, that’s actually a great question, because it’s the beauty of what Wesley taught them that made them feel comfortable. And not only brewing beer, which, as you said earlier, many people consider secular even to this day, but being in banking, et cetera. So, yes, some of them went on to missions, work, and they were connected to Hudson Taylor. But the genesis have been in fashion. They’ve been in banking. They’ve been in higher finance, they’ve been in brewing. They’ve been in real estate, et cetera. And all of them, at least in the early days, felt like this was a divine calling, that that’s what they were made to do. It’s like a pastor friend of mine who’s got five kids and one of them went into the pastorate. The other ones went on to law, medicine and real estate. And all of them would say, yeah, I was called to this is my dad is to the ministry. And that’s exactly how it happened. And the Guinness Company, one branch stayed in the brewing area, thank God, because they generated most of the wealth. But others went off into other areas, including ministry, without any of them thinking that they were doing secular work or spiritual work that was separate from all other endeavors. They believed that all work is sanctified and ordained of God and used by God.

William Norvell: That’s great. And one of the things I’d love to ask, we love, obviously, what we love doing this podcast is hearing stories and not that every entrepreneur is going to listen and take, you know, exactly that story and make it their own. But pieces, right. Wisdom over generations and taking these pieces of stories and and hearing how that translates into what God is doing in their business is something we love. And we just see it all the time. And I’d love to ask the same of the Guinness family. So as you think about the company as you researched it, how did they think about, you know, we used the phrase spiritual integration at the company, whether it’s with employees, whether it’s the company as a whole, whether it’s the community in which they’re involved, how do they see that as a positive force for good? And what maybe could some of our entrepreneurs learn?

Stephen Mansfield: Well, the genesis, because they were living in a strongly Christian Ireland at the time, they didn’t see it to be so much their role as to actually preach the gospel on the floor of the faculty, although they had chapels and they welcomed local pastors in to do that work, the way they saw themselves living out the gospel was to make a difference in people’s lives. Along the lines of the the words are overused these days, but the social impact that Jesus called people to have, caring for the poor, alleviating poverty, ministering to the sick, helping prisoners, Arthur Guinness started a hospital for the poor. He worked against Duling, which was a big social issue at the time. He rebuked his own social class for their excesses and callousness towards the poor. In England, a man named Robert Rake’s started the Sunday school movement. But in Ireland, a man named Arthur Guinness started the Sunday school movement. He started the entire Sunday school movement for the entire country and et cetera. And as you go on down through history, it’s stunning what the Guinness is did. In fact, they started a thing called the IB trust. When they became aristocrats, they became the Lords Ivy and the Ivy Trust at times in Irish history. Has given more money to the poor than the actual welfare system in Ireland. It’s actually been able to imagine imagine somebody of the US being able to say that.

Henry Kaestner: Oh, my goodness. So this big scale there. Did you just say so that this this trust, this foundation they set up from their personal wealth, from the from what had happened in the business? The profits of business eclipses that of the government aid.

Stephen Mansfield: It has at times in some years, yes, it has actually eclipsed the amount of government aid in the same year. That could be because of economic depressions or whatever. I don’t know the exact circumstances, but there’s no question the Ivy trust Ivy, the Ivy Trust was so well funded by the goodness’s you know, they might be having success and astonishing success in a year when the Irish government was having trouble raising funds through taxes and whatever other fees and so on. And so in those years, the Ivy Trust would give more than the Irish government. So that’s the kind of impact they’ve had. In fact, when I do my talks on the as I start with nineteen twenty eight, I say if you had worked for the Guinness is a nineteen twenty eight you would have. And I go through a long list of benefits. I mean you can’t believe it. The things they provided, burial services and banking services and nurses who would visit your home to help your family be healthy on and on and on. And of course, two pints of the good stuff every day. And it was absolutely transforming. Women told their daughters, our mothers told their daughters, make sure you marry against man. And all of that came about because the Guinness has said, look, we can model the gospel in practical ways. Let the church teach people about scripture. We believe in it. We’ll welcome pastors for everything on the floor. But what we’ll do is we’ll transform poverty in our generation. And they did it. They did it. And I could go on and on about the stories of how they tore down entire neighborhoods and rebuilt them for the poor, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. They literally transformed Ireland with their wealth and largesse.

William Norvell: Wow, what an amazing story. Is there a way and I know it’s a long history, so maybe pick a moment in time could be today. Is there a way to put any numbers on the size and scale? I don’t know. Revenues of the company, employees of the company. I mean, this just sounds quite large. I’m just interested if you could put any numbers to anything for us to give.

Stephen Mansfield: It’s a little hard to do because they went so international. But bear in mind that in the middle of the eighteen hundreds, there were more than 2000 employees just at the Dublin brewery now. By contrast, I don’t think there’s ever I’m not an expert on beer and brewing, but I’ve been told by people who should know that there’s never been a brewery in the United States that employed more than two thousand people. I mean, that makes sense to me. I mean, five hundred people is a huge amount of people working at a brewery. So at one point, the Guinness Brewery had over a couple of thousand working there. And then, of course, they went international. I mean, one of the funny moments I had when I was writing this book is that I was meeting with some Nigerian businessmen. Guinness is brewed in Nigeria and their commercials, which are world famous. The commercials in Nigeria are all done by a Nigerian actor. So I had to actually argue with these men to tell them, you know, Guinness is actually, you know, was founded in Ireland. Oh, no, no. I tell you, it’s not true. And they thought it

Henry Kaestner: was a Nigerian beer.

Stephen Mansfield: They thought it was Nigerian because Guinness does such a good job of embracing the culture in which they brew. So it’s a little hard to get statistics because, you know, Nigeria is not sending us their business model, their numbers. But all that I can say is it was massive. In fact, the Guinness in 1880, six Guinness went public. And so you can buy stock and the Guinness just became the wealthiest people in the entire British Isles. So the scale of this thing is massive. And again, it’s still Guinness to this day is one of the most famous brands in the world that’s. See, just all of your listeners go on YouTube and just look at some of the Guinness commercials. But I do my keynote presentation about this and make speeches to business groups and so on. I play a couple of the Guinness commercials and people are weeping. People are in tears because they still build on the old values. They still build on the ideas of character and devotion to work and serving society. And I’m telling you, I’ve spoken to massive gatherings of business people and I look up and people are crying, wiping tears away from their eyes based on the beer commercials, of all things. And that’s because the Guinness values breathe through.

William Norvell: That seems starkly different than the Bud Light marketing campaigns.

Stephen Mansfield: Yeah, really? Yeah. I’m I’m happy to laugh at frogs going a bit, but the Guinness commercials really are like sermons on themselves. It’s pretty amazing

William Norvell: what a redeeming I mean, just like you speak. I’m just thinking about, you know, what we talk about on this podcast all the time. Right. Are there places that we can redeem in the workplace, in the market with our Christian world view, with the lens of Jesus on and just even the simple? Is that right? We all know what other beer commercials look like. The fact that I mean, I can’t wait to watch them, that it’s a sermonette in thirty seconds based on values and devotion to work. I mean, that’s not simple, but it’s simple, but it’s profound.

Stephen Mansfield: Yeah. You’re saying something that I really moved by. I drink alcohol. I hate the question. Do you drink? Because it sounds like somebody is asking me if alcohol is my hobby. Do you drink? I drink a glass of wine with my wife every evening for dinner or whatever. Or else I drank and I’m aware that a lot of Christians believe, some Christians believe that alcohol is forbidden. It’s biblically not forbidden. In fact, Jesus made the stuff. But I’m not taking that fight right now. Drink, don’t drink. I don’t care. What I love, though, is that when God decided to use the genesis, he put them in something in a profession, in a production that many people would consider to be secular from the start. OK, so that’s fine. Consider beer secular. It’s fine with me. You can’t consider it evil. I mean, it’s just water and rain, but still consider it secular. So God used the genesis who were brewing beer to change the world, literally to make a massive difference. And the world. I like that he did that. I mean, whether he wants to do with guns or fudge, I don’t care. Whatever you produce, do it. But my point is that I like the picture. I like the story of this being a secular thing and God being able to use these people to change lives with something that other folks wouldn’t touch because it’s so quote on quote tainted. Now, I’m not saying you can change the world through prostitution or something that just outright sin, but I do believe strongly that God can use secular and very common things to transform societies by the wise use of them.

Henry Kaestner: So as you reflect on the last hundred years or so of much lying in that, of course, because they went public in nineteen eighty six, I’m just fascinated by, again, by their foundation that they set up being able to do more in some years to impact the lives of the poor than the actual government did. And I’m wondering, as you are talked to by Fox and CNN and all those folks right now and you’re in D.C., so you get a function of what the government does and doesn’t do and should or shouldn’t do. And you don’t need to necessarily talking about your personal beliefs on that here. But I do wonder what your thoughts are, the lessons that you see from that as it applies to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur this listen to this in twenty twenty one, as they are called to do something with excellence and use all their gifts for the glory of God. What does it look like for them to love their neighbor? You know, it sees it. Maybe this is leading you to much, but it seems that, gosh, you know, we’re going to do our business software as a service or whatever. The business is as good as we can. To the extent that we make money on this, then we’ll go ahead and of course, we’ll tithe and maybe we’ll give generously. But you’re talking about an entire company going ahead and saying we want to use this platform to bless others. What does that look like now? Twenty, twenty one?

Stephen Mansfield: Well, in the back of my book, I’ve got five pillars of Genesis success. And one of them that I really admire is their strong belief. And these are their exact words. You cannot make money from people unless you are willing for them to make money from you. And so in their business dealings, they did not have a scorched earth policy. They did not see themselves, as I have it, one unless the other guys impoverished. They believe that a rising tide lifts all ships, that a good business transaction was one in which both sides prosper. So this is an example of the kinds of things they did and they transformed brewing of every kind, many, many of the brewers that Ireland, for example, their rise from the moment the Guinness decided to become large and to bless other people. The other thing is that they very strongly believed that their job was to invest in their employees. Their employees were not just people who signed a piece of paper and went to work for them. Their employees were people who had been given them a sacred trust. And so that’s why they transformed their lives. I mean, even down to the you would work for Guinness in nineteen twenty eight and you were single. Guinness would have paid every year for you to go out in the country and get some fresh air and they had a dating service for the single young men. It would have been all been working on the floor and they made sure that the young man had a young woman to take out into the country for a day, and they paid all the expenses. They were that concerned about the welfare of their employees. And so to use the actual employment as an opportunity for uplift, a word that’s overused these days but very powerful, an opportunity to transform poverty and opportunity to invest and to teach and to train. Quite frankly, Guinness by the nineteen twenties was doing more than what we now celebrate and Microsoft and Apple and so on. These amazing benefits these people tend to have for their time. Guinness was off the charts with all of that, including like massages and libraries and sports, all kinds of things. So I think those are two principles that are really, really important. But the one they really talked about the most is one that your your listeners can take away this third one. And it was based on something that Prince Albert had said. And they said, find out what God is doing in your generation and get involved in it. Find out what God is doing in your generation and get involved in it. And so that’s a little bit a matter of discernment, not as specific as perhaps some might want. But what is God doing today? I mean, for those of us who believe in God, look at the society we’re living in. God is trying to bring people together. Of course, he’s always trying to get his truth into people’s lives and and get his son their focus, but. Oddest reaching across lines, God is calling us to be healers and reconciler, as God is calling us to unify for Christian people is specifically to build. The cross-line society can’t seem to build across racial lines, socioeconomic lines, political lines. So that was one of the things they did. They would they would literally get in a board meeting, look around and say, all right, what do we think God’s doing in our generation? And within a few weeks, they had put money time, something there to be part of what they felt like God was doing,

William Norvell: Amen, Amen, Amen, and gives me a chance. We’re going to come to a close on repeat one thing from a prior podcast guy named Don Flo. And I hear the story is similar in the Guinness story. He said When someone entrust their scarce labor capital to me, it is a burden upon me to steward it well. And I hear that so well. And it is just such a great idea that, you know, it’s not a you know, they’re not just working for me. Right. This is something that they’ve been given from God. It’s a gift that they have and it’s upon the entrepreneur to steward that well. And as we do come to a close, the last thing we love to ask is trying to figure out where God has you specifically in his word these days. We love to see how that transcends our listeners and our guests. And so we’d invite you, if you wouldn’t mind sharing it could be something to God shared with you today as you opened your Bible or a story you’ve been meditating on for a season of your life or your entire life even. Just where does God have you in his scripture during this time?

Stephen Mansfield: Well, I have been recently engaged in a renewed effort at memorizing scripture, and it has really impacted me. I mean, I’ve been a student of scripture for years, have degrees in biblical studies. But when you actually memorize scripture and allow it to cycle in you constantly, it’s transforming. And so I decided to memorize the twenty third psalm, which many people have memorized. That’s not a big achievement. Fortunately for me, I read Greek and Hebrew and so I read it in the original Hebrew, broke out the words a little bit and memorized it in an English version of the Hebrew. And it just I got to tell you, it’s just melted. It’s just unbelievable, you know. And so that’s the twenty third psalm is where I have been living. I’ve now got to memorize Psalm 91. It says it says talks a lot about pestilence and plagues, but also other promises that were given. But if you’re asking just up to the very minute up to this morning where I am in the word and I am in a recitation, I’m memorizing a deep reading and praying back the twenty third psalm and the things it says in there, he guides me and the right ways for his namesake. He prepares a table for me in the presence of my enemies, you know, all those kinds of things. And of course, when you break out a little bit of the Hebrew, for example, at the very end of that chapter, we know the famous words, your goodness and love. Follow me all the days of my life with the Hebrew word really pursue. And so the idea is that goodness and love are chasing us. God’s goodness and love are actually chasing us and our lives. That’s what the Hebrew says. Well, that’s transforming rather than just following us. You know, following us is what your little brother did when he irritated you when you were walking off to play with your friends. But chasing you now, that’s what that good looking girl did in high school. It’s a whole different thing with the love of God chases. That’s the goodness of God chases us. And so anyway, I’m finding all of that to be extremely transforming.

William Norvell: Amen Amen, amen. What a beautiful picture to end our time together with. And just so, so grateful that you would spend some time with us, that you would share some of the stories that God has gifted you with with us and our audience.

Stephen Mansfield: Hey, it’s great to be with you. What a privilege. Thanks so much, guys.

— by Amanda Lawson

What comes first, the entrepreneur’s idea or the moment that sets the stage for action? 

I once had to review a book about the history of the ice industry. I struggled to imagine what could possibly be worth knowing about the entrepreneurial narrative of ice. But it was actually one of my favorite books I’ve reviewed. 

Think about the genius here: man was able to take a substance that existed abundantly and freely in nature and find a way to convince people to pay for it. Of course, there were innovative processes and products connected to the ice industry—refrigeration in homes, shipping methods that enabled products to travel long distances without spoiling, and water purification systems that led to the uniquely American habit of drinking beverages with ice in them. It was a strangely fascinating story of innovation and entrepreneurial supply chain thinking. 

But the author also connected the entrepreneurial moments of the ice industry to important periods of history, where the culture influenced industry and vice versa. 

We love stories of entrepreneurial ventures that changed the world: narratives of underdogs becoming CEOs, brilliant young people in rural communities whose inventions go on to save lives, businesses dedicated to a mission greater than a bottom line. They inspire and educate on every level. But those stories don’t happen in a vacuum; they happen in unique points in time, cultural moments that bolster the tales of overcome obstacles and seemingly supernatural coincidences. 

So, what would it look like to marry, or rather, recognize the marriage of, history and entrepreneurship? 

For faith driven entrepreneurs, it’s a short line between historical context and entrepreneurial action. Nearly every practitioner will point to a moment where God called them to their work, often referring to the call as one to join in what the Lord is already doing. Knowing what the Lord is and has been doing is a matter of history. This is the practice of recognizing that the work we do is built on the shoulders of generations of laborers who came before—and it’s knowing that those after us will do the same. God is a God of generations, those that are, those that were, and those that are yet to come. 

This is more than understanding context. That may be step one, but what we’re talking about here is an attempt to grasp the magnitude of the faith driven entrepreneur movement by looking backwards. After all, if it is truly a movement rather than a moment, where we are is different than where we were and from where we intend to go—bestowing upon us all the glorious weight of making history for future generations. 

It’s a common, albeit questionable, phrase: “Those who don’t learn history are doomed to repeat it.” But learning history is less about not repeating past mistakes; it’s much more about understanding the incredible story God has been writing—a story in which we are fortunate enough to be one small chapter.

Recent articles

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[ Photo by Photography Maghradze PH from Pexels ]

— by Miami University

The purpose of L.I.F.E. is to develop research, teaching and practice focused at the integration of faith and entrepreneurship across religious and faith traditions. While a few institutions have focused on faith and work, such as Princeton University’s Faith & Work initiative, L.I.F.E.’s focus on entrepreneurship is innovative and intentional. It aligns with the rapidly growing industry trend of integrating faith and entrepreneurship around the world and complements this trend with academically rigorous, practically relevant knowledge creation. 

As part of the John W. Altman Institute for Entrepreneurship in the Farmer School of Business, L.I.F.E. is one of the first academic programs in the world to integrate faith and entrepreneurship. To date, L.I.F.E. has developed a pioneering international research conference, several academic studies, a budding student organization, and an initial academic course.   

The goal of L.I.F.E. is to increase knowledge at the intersection of faith and entrepreneurship and explore how students, entrepreneurs and investors may bring their whole selves into entrepreneurial ventures. L.I.F.E. attempts to give students the opportunity to learn about the intersection of faith and entrepreneurship and examine how they might use this knowledge after graduation. 

Click here to read the full article by Miami University

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— by Centre for Enterprise, Market and Ethics

For me, thinking about enterprise and entrepreneurship is natural. I grew up in a family that ran a business and I worked behind the counter for many years with my mother and father and brother. I learned a great deal about business from my parents. They believed in enterprise – that we should work hard, make the most of our talents, be productive members of society and that we should do good. They never set foot inside a church.

My father’s journey took him from the bombed-out slums of the East End of London, via National Service, to being a company director, acquiring his own home and finally running a shop. Perhaps there has never again been a period of such social mobility. My mother’s family were entrepreneurs from the start, owning and managing a cab company.

I learned that running a business is tremendously hard work and takes commitment and love. I discovered the importance of understanding customers and never judging them. And a little bit of buttering-up does no harm either. Today that is called customer service. I learned that even in a small business, outside forces and trends can have a huge impact – our shop was eventually put out of business by a huge DIY superstore opening up within walking distance.

Although we did not use the word then, my parents were entrepreneurs. They shared the classic features we see in such people: they were alive to opportunities, took some risks, were highly creative and invested much of themselves in a business that was beautiful – perhaps a strange word to use but it reflects how we felt. Like many entrepreneurs, for us making money was not the only focus.

Click here to continue reading

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[ Photo by Philipp Birmes from Pexels ]

If you’ve been following this podcast for a while, you likely know that last year we had our first ever Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Faith Driven Investor conferences that included guests like Andy Crouch, Jewel Burks Solomon, Chip Ingram, Lecrae, Phil Vischer, Jessica Kim, and many more. 

Thousands of you attended, making it one of the most encouraging days since the start of the FDE and FDI movements. Well, if you missed last year’s event, don’t worry. Because we’re doing it again. 

Today’s episode is all about what you can look forward to at this year’s event, and the unique twist that’s going to make 2021 even better…

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast special edition, kind of halfway in between last year’s 20 20 Faith Driven Entrepreneur conference, which I thought was awesome. We can talk about that and maybe share some favorite moments with my co-host and great friends, Rusty Rueff and William Norvall. And then halfway between then, of course, and the one that’s upcoming. So a good chance to reflect on the things that we were learned last year, the things that we’ve been reflecting on over the course of the last six months, and then the things that were kind of anticipating and hopeful for over the course of the next six months leading into, of course, this conference. So Rusty, William, welcome.

Rusty Rueff: Always good to be together.

Henry Kaestner: So fascinating. You know, Justin and Sue, Alice and Jonny have come to us to ask us to talk about the conference. And there’s so much to talk about because this year we’re going to be rolling out a new watch party. We’re going to have much more of a local implementation. We’ve got an incredible lineup of speakers again, which is kind of hard because we had so many great ones last year. The thought is you go back to the same great people like Phil said, you say the same thing or not. But we’ll talk about how we’ve been able to avoid that and why we’re so excited about this actually being a new slate of topics and speakers. But before we get there, let’s reflect a little bit. It’s been six months since we did the last conference, and there have been some presentations that have continued to really make an impact in my life. And some I knew it at the time and then some have just been kind of creeping back up. Upon reflection. I don’t know if you guys have experienced the same.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, I actually think it’s worth even before we dove into that, just let’s remind everybody that, you know, the conference that was the conference was not the conference that was going to be the conference. Right. I mean, we went into this planning for a couple of days of fellowship in Dallas and, you know, being together and shaking hands and giving hugs from people from all over the country and all over the world who’ve been our listeners and participants and guests and everything got turned upside down by covid. But yet we persevered through and we tried something that, you know, we didn’t know would work or didn’t work. And it did work by God’s grace. It’s actually now leading us as we talk about what we’re going to do this year, you know, into a hybrid of that. But, you know, it was pretty special given the fact that we were all doing it from our homes and our offices and, you know, sitting there on Zoome nonstop for a couple of days. But, you know, hats off to, you know, the team who pulled it all off, you know, and coordinated that. That’s not easy.

Henry Kaestner: No, it’s not easy. William, you probably had some favorites. I know you had some favorites. I know you’re a huge fan. I know you’re a fan much of all the speakers. And that’s one of the things the team was nice enough to allow us to get some input and last year’s speaker list in this upcoming one as well. But tell us about some of the speakers. And by the way, as we talk about that, know that we’re about to launch and maybe by the time this is released, we’ll have released the Faith Driven Athlete, all of these speakers, all these talks that we’re going to be talking about, you’re going to be able to see on your mobile device, on your computer, and really we’re just really fired up about that. But OK, William, would you like.

William Norvell: Yeah, it’s exciting. I’m excited to be up to another team and working hard on it and to be able to take a five hour conference, you know, that we did with, I think, close to 40 speakers and sort of distill that down into different topics and different areas. So you have to watch all of it right now. If you if you try to find it, you’ll probably find the five hour link or some some things. But it’s going to be amazing. And as I do hope, people will find that if they haven’t found it already once this releases and. Yeah, I mean, reflecting back, yeah, I’m a big fan and he just always is just amazing. I think Andy has a unique ability. You know, all of our speakers have some unique super power. And I think Andy’s is to just like get to the soul of what is going on. And he can speak to the soul of an entrepreneur better than anybody I’ve encountered. And so just as you know, 30 seconds of his talk, I think it was 12 minutes. I would encourage you to go find it and watch it. And we can and we can link to that in the app. But his main point was he talked about how. How to flourish as an entrepreneur and what he talked about was he believes that flourishing happens when authority meets vulnerability and the way he defined authority was the capacity for meaningful action. And the way he does, he defined vulnerability, was taking meaningful risk. And he said when you have the capacity to take meaningful action and you choose to take meaningful risk, that is where an entrepreneur flourishes and he teases that out over over 12 minutes and just walked through. And just to buy two guys, you’ll see some great two by twos and and just how Jesus fits into that paradox of of creating that flourishing moment for an entrepreneur. And I just just it just hits me. I’ve watched it five, six, seven times. I’ve sent it to numerous people that are thinking about being entrepreneurs that have maybe I put myself in this category, always been on the edge of maybe going out and trying something. And he just beautifully lays out the encouragement for that and says, yes, like God did design us this way. If you’re feeling that maybe he designed you that way to

Henry Kaestner: Rusty, what did you like? What is your impression?

Rusty Rueff: Well, you know, I got two instances with your former co-founder, Dave Morgan. Right. So not only his his discussion on why excellence matters, but also a little breakout session that we did together. And, you know, I just am always so impressed with the amount of humility he brings to the success that he’s had and just the way he can be. You know, I can imagine I’ve only interacted with him here on the podcast a couple of times, you know, watching it on the conference there and then having that panel together with him. But I can imagine that, Dave, you know, he’s pretty driven guy, right? I mean, there’s you know, there’s no you know, hey, I think we’re not going to make this goal kind of guy. He’s you know, we’re we’re going to take this hill. But at the same time, there’s a purity to him and there’s a gentleness, even with that ability to push that comes through in his humility that I thought was just awesome in both sessions. And, you know, I just admire and felt really challenged to step up my game, you know, and whatever I do to make sure that I’m being excellent.

Henry Kaestner: You know, it’s interesting that if I were going to talk about how he gets that, it’s interesting. It’s not a focus on excellence is part a function of the fact that he is being given by some really unique gift things and is making the most of them. But pragmatically, I think that the blend of excellence with humility that I really do think that he gets and is wonderful to continue to experience that through a 20 year friendship and partnership is the fact that he prays one hundred times a day. Plus he’s constantly in prayer and he’s got it. This is one of the podcast interviews we did with them. He’s always praying, God, thank you. God forgive me, God, please, all day. And if you spend that much time walking right next to God when your thought is that any time you have a thought. Delayed at God’s feet, then you can’t get to under yourself. You can’t, and I think that that’s kind of the secret there. And I think it’s interesting you pointed that out, of course, from my perspective. I love David talk. It was great having Victor Ho talk about Sabbath, some of the earlier podcast we did. There’s a part one, part two that we did with Victor. One hundred and sixty podcasts ago or something like that where he unpacks Sabbath. And a couple of things that I like Victor about. And actually coming back to our very first blog we ever put up on the podcast was Andy Crouch talking about Sabbath as a very first century we ever had. The second one was I think it was John Drexler’s essay on the Silicon Valley episode where they talked about you can be anything in Silicon Valley, but you can’t be a Christian. And the satire, the brilliant satire that that was. And John did such a great job. And I think we’ve had thousands and thousands of blogs since then. But Sabbath is so important. Victor Ho did a great job pointing that out. And what I’m talking about, Victor. Of course, we’ve got to go back to one of the favorite lessons I’ve ever learned from Victor is the emphasis on delighting our customer and the work he did at McKinsey, at Harvard Business School, and then now through five stars about what does it look like to delight a customer understanding that it is significantly more cost effective to retain a customer that was otherwise going to churn than to go out and buy a new one? Just the way he talks about that, I think is really good. But I think that my favorite interplay from the Faith Driven Entrepreneur conference is Phil Fisher and Casey Crawford, these two guys who are passionate about their faith and the interplay fills a little, maybe more bookish, very creative. And Casey’s Super Bowl, when a six foot six is completely chiseled, they’re different in some ways. They’re very, very similar in some ways in that they’re both students of entrepreneurship as it relates to knowing God. And the interplay that Casey had with Phil I thought was really cool. Now, they weren’t on the stage at the same time, but it really started off as a continuation of something that happened here on the podcast. Right. We had been talking about Phil’s podcast on identity. And if you go back to Phil Fisher podcast, I think it’s minute 16 to minute 20 or so. Phil talks about the identity of a Khristine entrepreneur. That is really, really good. And as we’re getting ready to interview Casey for his podcast, we were reflecting on it. And Casey was talking about, gosh, I know that we’re called the not have anxiety, but yet I still feel anxiety and I feel that Jesus was in the garden. He’s sweating blood. And I see David having some real stress and anxiety. And so how do I think about that? And Katie’s talk was on are we called to comfort as Christians? And that made a real impression. But it just I just love the interplay between the two of them. I love the fact that they’re both so thoughtful about being a Faith Driven Entrepreneur. They had such incredible experiences. And I love just the highlighting of the tension that comes about with the Faith Driven Entrepreneur. What’s the tension? How do we deal with things like balancing work and family? How do we integrate our faith? How do we think about financing? How do we think about our issues? And there can be a tension there. And it was fun just to see them both unpack that a little bit.

William Norvell: Yeah. You know, the last one I mentioned as reflecting on this is because you made me think of a delighting your customer. One of the most interesting talks I remember is, is Lacroix’s talk about being an artist. And I was really fascinated when he went on the riff of really trying to understand his his customer and design music for them because I just blew me away. I just always think of artists as, no, I’m just going to go in a box and create whatever I create because God told me to. And if people like it, people like it. But, you know, he’s like, no, I definitely see myself as a product and I have a product to sell and I have an audience and I need to understand my audience. And I thought it was kind of a really brilliant riff on an area that I’m not very accustomed to. And I think that’s what the government is grateful to. If you can come see different variations of people coming from different walks of life and how those things can be applied to your universe, even though you may not think they can be applied to your universe. And that’s what we we’ve tried to line up here this year to.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. What are you talking about? Lecrae That’s one of my most gratifying and hopefully it’s not a prideful moment because it will always be something I’ll struggle with to some extent. But when Lecrae really leaned into the ministry and really got excited about it through the podcast and then his participation in the conference and understanding that he as a creator is very much an entrepreneur and felt that we are his people in his tribe, so to speak, so much so that he has, of course, written the forward to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur book and just really great for us to be able to be, I think, in one way culturally relevant to a new generation. I think about my kids. I mean, I can talk about the 20 different presenters that we had on and the conference and and the one that they’ll get really fired up about as Lecrae. And that’s really important to me as a dad, because I’ve got three teenage boys who want to be able to have heroes that are thoughtful. About how to delight their customer, how to find their identity in Christ and then how to get out there and create and flourish, and so that was also a really cool moment.

William Norvell: You know what I said last time? But on that, too, talking about, you know, we talk about identity so much here, I thought Gelberg Solomon just did a wonderful job of talking about how the day she sold her company was the worst day of her life and how she woke up the next day and didn’t think she had anything to live for and how she had to fight to recover her identity, not as a CEO, but as a child of God. And we talk about that a lot. But her story of how she felt it and and when she felt it and how she had to recover it, I just thought was it was really fascinating.

Rusty Rueff: You know, if we were if we were given out courage awards, I think you’ve got to give it to Rob Thomas. Jeff Parker. Right. And that that segment is the one that I heard most from other people about. Right. Who said, hey, I tuned into this. I watch this. Wow. You know that. I mean, the idea that there could be that level of authenticity, that level of vulnerability, that level of sharing and walking through something as they did, you know, talk about courage, you know, just amazing, amazing.

Henry Kaestner: And it come on and tell the story again and again. And they, of course, were alive with us in the studio. And that was remarkably powerful. I think that

William Norvell: was it live in the studio

Henry Kaestner: was that everybody was live in Syria. That’s right.

William Norvell: Henry, Secrets, Secrets of the Calvert’s here. Slow down.

Henry Kaestner: Know some of the people clearly were calling in from other places, but they’re actually in physical proximity. With us is, of course, what I mean, I thought that was really good. Neither of them interestingly, we’ve had some incredible guests on the podcast. Everybody knows Phil Fisher with Trey Tim Keller, Chip Ingram, a lot of really bigger names. And yet those two guys, I think, are still in the top three. Most listened to episodes on our podcast, Carson and 60. And neither of them would nobody would know their name outside of that context. But the substance was so rich that people keep on downloading and forwarding it to people

William Norvell: because the title is 99 percent confession equals zero percent freedom. Was that right?

Rusty Rueff: About that last one percent? That last one percent, yeah.

Henry Kaestner: How about on the Faith Driven Investor side I go first. Yeah, I Phinney Kerviel is talk about the role of an investor I thought was really seminal for me. This is a guy guys in my PhD is one of the smartest guys on the planet and really, really smart people can oftentimes just lose you. And he could have lost me. I mean, because you remember this guy is an M.D., Ph.D. who ended up getting his MBA, I think, on the side while he’s getting his Ph.D.. I mean, is that smart? So he’s clearly capable of writing white papers and treatises and things like that. But he has a special gift of taking that and distill it into a simple concept, which was for me was as follows. He talks about Christopher Columbus and says, look, Christopher Columbus was an Italian. He had an idea for adventure. He went around to all his buddies in Italy to talk about this new venture. He’s going to go on and they all said no. So it’s OK. I’ll try my luck in Portugal. And they also said no. He went to Spain and worked out and said, you know what, they should be speaking Italian in Argentina and Chile today, but they don’t. And the cultural impact that that venture investment made and then fast for that and the relevancy for us now for hundred years on in Africa, there is going to be more entrants into the job market over the course of next 20 years than India and China combined. What language are they going to be speaking in Kinshasa? Are they going to be speaking secular or are they going to be speaking Christian? And what I mean by that is, are they going to be speaking Chinese? Are they can be speaking Arabic or are they going to be speaking? Where are they going to be speaking? Or is the marketplace going to be inhabited by entrepreneurs that are driven by their faith, who are able to speak the language of looking to create and do it for the glory of God? And what are their identities in Christ, where they’re able to love their neighbor and be able to have a redemptive frame as they think about creativity in the marketplace. And that was really impactful for me, just the deepness of number one. It was the importance of investing. All of our investments have impact and means something. Capital has influence. I think that there’s some deep theological truth in what he’s talking about. And then he just made it really applicable. I can get it. I think that people in Argentina and Chile should be speaking Italian, and I think that people in Kinshasa should be loving their neighbor and inventing products and services that bring about God’s kingdom.

William Norvell: You know, speaking of cultural impact, one of the ones I loved was John Irwin. You know, John Amen, the filmmaker, which is maybe like a little bit of esoteric asset. You know, if you’re thinking about investing his riff on, you know, in his opinion that, you know, there’s so many Christians that are upset about where Hollywood’s go and all these things. And he just had this. And he said, you know, Hollywood didn’t leave Christians, Christians left Hollywood, and he had this push to engage in places, just as Jesus did, and said, you know, that is our fault, not anyone else’s. We decided to revert back into our bubble and not fight the good fight anymore. And he said, you know, I’m I’m living proof. I signed a deal with the big movie studio after some Faith Driven Investor said helped him get to a point where that was an option. And beautiful story.

Rusty Rueff: You know, I was struck by something you said there, Henry, about, you know, we overlook a lot of times the impact that can happen here, right, by Faith Driven Investor and sort of thinking down the river, if you will. And you know what Pete Kelly shares or what he does with apartment life on the surface, you look at it go, oh, that’s you know, that’s amazing. That’s amazing. And the integration of the spiritual side of that and then how that turns out to be really great for apartment owners, I take that one step further. I say if he’s saving money for apartment owners, then they are able to pass back that savings in a way that creates more affordable housing. Right. Which is, you know, loving on our neighbors. Right. Figuring out how to be able to extend those things that we’ve been given from God to make it better for others. And I think what Pete’s doing there is really, really impressive.

Henry Kaestner: Now, we’ve got another conference coming up, and while the final guest list hasn’t been announced yet and I can tell you one thing, I can tell you that we will by far and away have our most famous guest that is committed. And we’ve had some famous Gammie, again, Phil Fisher. We’ve had Tim Keller. We’ve had some really, really outstanding presenters. This one, I think that when we announced this and we just don’t have clearance yet from the agent, but we nonetheless have a commitment. I think that this one will be one that everybody be really fired up about. It’ll be fun. And I think, again, super culturally relevant, much in the way that the crew has been.

William Norvell: I’m excited about it. We’re really we’re not faking this. We actually can’t say anything, but I can’t wait to celebrate it. It’s not just like, oh, they’re names big. It’s like, gosh, they’re it’s a fun group. And they’re going to bring some excitement, energy to the conference that I just think is going to be phenomenal.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, I just I love Gene Simmons. I really don’t know. That’s not the fun group. It’s not I promise you, it is not fun group. But would that be something that they talked about? Faith driven entrepreneurs. Yeah, Rusty. As you look at the list of the speakers come up, any that stand out for you.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, I’m excited, Henry. I’m a huge fan of Sue Warnke and what Sue has done at Salesforce. And you know for sure. Yes. And she and I had our own little moment of overlap at work and ministry thing at our church back in twenty nineteen. That was really exciting. She happened to be there while we were doing a thing called the Tightrope Talks, and I called her out. I didn’t know she was in the audience because I had read in the Trailblazer book by Marc Benioff where he talks about faith force and he talks about Sue Warnke and about how such an impact that that has had on the culture of Salesforce. I mean, stop for a second and think about that. You know, Marc Benioff talking about a woman and a group of who are sharing their Christian faith with each other inside of the workplace, inside of a company, inside of a public company. And I just happened to mention that. And I asked if anybody who worked at Salesforce, this hand goes up. And I said, really? You know, you work at Salesforce, what do you do? It she goes, I’m Sue Warnke. I’m like, you got to be kidding me. You’ve got to be kidding me. So she’s a rock star in my mind. And I think that’s going to be really exciting for us.

Henry Kaestner: I travel around, I’ve been asking people, where do you think is the Center for the Faith and Work Movement in the United States? And if I’m in Atlanta, they say national. If I’m in Nashville, they say Dallas. If I’m in Dallas, of course they say Dallas. Right. People think about, I think in Texas. But I say to them, I will submit to you that I think that the Center for the Faith and Work Movement in the United States is in the Bay Area. And yes, I’m a little biased because I live out here. But I say this out here in the Bay Area where there are new are resurgent faith driven employee resource groups at Google and Apple at Facebook there. Before COVA, they were doing prayer walks on campus at Dropbox. They’re doing praise and worship music. We’ve heard in the lunch room. That’s right. And then, of course, at Salesforce, where it’s called faith for us. I think more than a thousand members up there.

Rusty Rueff: Oh, I think it’s double that now. Wow.

Henry Kaestner: Amazing. And, you know, and it’s and yes, of course, you know, if you’re a force, there are other faiths that are represented. But of course, we as Christians believe that truth stands out in the marketplace of ideas. And so guys doing something amazing out here in the Bay Area, which we hope is an encouragement. If you’re a Faith Driven Entrepreneur, you’re listening to this right now. Thing I don’t know, Faith Driven Athlete Resource Group, that sounds like a little bit of a far fetched bunch of people getting together and praying together. It might be too much. And gosh, chaplaincy maybe. I don’t know. But I mean, if Facebook and Google and Apple, you know, what I thought of is like the epitome of this secular organization have come to understand that having Faith Driven Athlete resource groups are good for their bottom line and good for their culture. I think that that gives us great reference. So as our employees come out and say, you know, you’ve got a group of people to get together, pray for each other and that feel a little uncomfortable about it, I think a lot of them will be able to see the fact that it’s happened in some of the very best and forward thinking technology companies will help give some cover there. So I also I’m a huge fan of Sue William. As you look through the list, what’s what strikes out for.

William Norvell: Yes, a couple of things I’m excited about. So guest wise, super quick ones. Andy Stanley needs no introduction. He just if you listen to that podcast, his church had a big part in my coming to know the Lord in a deep way. And so I just always think he has just like hard won wisdom. And and then on the other side, Seth Dillon, the CEO Babylon Bee. And not just because he’s hilarious, but he is hilarious, but his theology of satire and why it’s important to the church. I was surprised by that. I was kind of blown away when we did that podcast where he had this really thoughtful framework for why he does his job. It’s not simply that he’s funny and he thinks he can be funny and he can make money on it. It’s I don’t know what he’s going to share there, but the Babylon Bee is getting more notoriety. And so I’m excited for that. And that’s an interesting one. I’m excited for that to be shared in community. So. I don’t think we’ve talked about yet, we’re rolling this out as a hybrid event this year, and so we want local host cities, right? We want people in their cities to host and kind of raise their hand and say, I want to have 10 people over to my house or I want to have two hundred people at my church, whatever that may look like. We’ve already got over one hundred cities signed up to date. And I just think we talk about local communities so much here, and it’s just as such an opportunity to come around, watch these things together. And, you know, we’ve got a great guest to come on and talk about that. So Sue Alice has been on the podcast before, is the director of community at Faith Driven Entrepreneur and investor Sue Alice. Tell us a little more about your vision for the watch party format.

Speaker 4: You know, this has been a really hard year. Entrepreneurship is already a lonely journey. But throughout covid, it’s been extraordinarily lonely in many ways. And as things are starting to open up more, we know that a lot of people aren’t ready to jump on a plane and cross the globe to come and join us in person. But we can certainly cross the city and join together with other entrepreneurs, investors that live in our area and come together. And so we’re going to be live streaming the conference all over the world. Wherever you are, we are coming to you. And we want you to gather together in community host to watch party. All you need is a screen and a space will even help you with food. We want to make this as simple as possible for everybody to try and come together and watch this experience sit together, be able to wrestle with hard topics together and remember that God did not create us to be alone.

Henry Kaestner: Did indeed sue Alice, as you look ahead and want to put you on the spot and something to a question that you probably didn’t expect coming your way. By the way, I’m just so excited about the leadership that you provide to the ministry in the way that you’re able to oversee small groups. And we’re just getting started with the small group curriculum there. Three hundred faith driven entrepreneurs going through the class together. Twenty three different facilitators, entrepreneurs from all over the world. And that happens through the magic of us. Who else does, in addition to looking at the conference, but to Alice, as you look ahead to the speakers that we have coming up, are there any of that jump out to you, anybody that you’re particularly fired up about listening to?

Sue Alice Sauthoff: Yeah, you know, I have seen on the list Laura Casey is on there and we hosted her recently at one of our other events. And I feel like just being able to hear from these entrepreneurs, all of these speakers have such authenticity and what they’re sharing. And I just got to meet Laura recently and see that in her. So I’m really excited to hear from her again. I just connect with her a lot as a mom as well. And so it’s really exciting to hear from her on that list.

Henry Kaestner: Well, thank you. Thank you for coming over and joining the team and providing so much leadership for leading the Faith Driven Entrepreneur group practice and the conference. For me, I’ve got a new favorite speaker and he’s kind of a cross between Francis Chan and BAM Phelps. If you remember BAM Phelps, you remember bum Phelps, who’s the Texan cowboy that always wore his ten gallon hat. It was

Rusty Rueff: a cousin. It was a coach, right?

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. Fantastic coach. There’s a guy named Jimmy Song and Jimmy

William Norvell: Jimmy Jimmy the other day. Oh really?

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. He is really, really good. He’s very thoughtful. He’s got great energy and charisma and he is really focused on what cryptocurrency means and grounding in theology and in scripture in a way that I didn’t think could happen. I didn’t think it could happen. And so he’ll unpack for us. What does that mean and how can a Christ follower think about the ramifications for cryptocurrency? Is it bad? Is it good? Is it neutral? And he has a firm opinion on it. And I tell you, you spend enough time with Jimmy song, you find yourself kind of coming along with his way of thinking because he’s just so thoughtful

William Norvell: in his book, thank God for Bitcoin and working through it so good. And he’s just so thoughtful about how God works through Bitcoin specifically. And he also has a famous story of buying maybe what could be called the world’s most expensive beef jerky. That’s Raichlen adopter. He buy bitcoins worth of beef jerky, which as of current day is a sixty thousand dollar thing of beef jerky, which I don’t think it was worth that to him. He said it was good beef jerky, but probably not that

Henry Kaestner: probably not dead

Rusty Rueff: yet. I’m I’m excited, as you guys are, about what we’re going to do in the fall. And I think one of the things we’ve got to remember, too, is that in our faith journey, there are these disciplines that we each are striving to bring forward in our lives and to internalize in our life. And, you know, this conference can be one of those it’s a part of the journey, because while we won’t be together face to face with our speakers, we’ll be through technology. We are creating community there and we are sharing and fellowship. But these watch parties that we’re talking about, the small groups that we have with FDE, you know, those are community. Those are people coming together and having the opportunity to fellowship and to strengthen each other. And as we know, iron sharpens iron. And we recently had an FDE podcast with our favorite entrepreneurial pastor, Chip Ingram, and he talks about how important it is that we have people in our lives that we can have strong relationships and friendships with and who we can be totally vulnerable and held totally accountable together. And, you know, what we don’t know is we walk into one of these conferences, we go to a watch party, we invite someone to our home to do this together. There in May be that person, right? That person. You know, God will deliver that person for us if we don’t already have them or if, you know, God will deliver more than one person to us. But we have to be willing to open the door. We have to be willing to share of ourselves and share of our time. And that’s part of what’s so exciting about what we’re doing here, is we are continuing to walk through that faith journey.

William Norvell: Amen grateful for all of you as part of my community and grateful for so many people that I’ve met through the conference and after the conference and became friends with because of some of the people that share their time with us so graciously did.

Henry Kaestner: We’re excited for you to come be a part. And again, as Alison said, if you have a screen and you have a passion and you want to share this community and encourage other Faith Driven Athlete. Noises, you yourself are encouraged. We really do hope that you become a watch party host, it’s easy. You can find it on the website. And thank you, Sue Alice. You know, you’ve been around the ministry not forever, but long enough to know that on our podcast, we ask every guest to share with us a bit about what they’re hearing from God and his word. And if you’ve also been listening to podcasts, you know that I’m not the one to ask that question. It’s William.

William Norvell: I thought you were just going to steal it from me.

Henry Kaestner: I thought for a second. And I was like I was

William Norvell: like, he’s going for it, tag. I’m going to have to have that truth and love talk after this episode. But, you know, no, we love figuring out where God’s story is. And and I know, you know, that’s where it’s coming. But just yeah. If you wouldn’t mind, share with our audience. We’re just glad to have you today in his word. And where is he taking you in his scripture and how is that impacting how you see the world today?

Sue Alice Sauthoff: Yeah, I have been spending a lot of time in Psalm thirty four and verse one says I will praise the Lord in every moment, in every situation. And I have to spend meditating on that a lot that whatever comes, the joys, the struggles, whatever, that I’m still looking to the Lord, I’m still praising him and that and I could go on with more, but I’m going to turn the tables around because our audience wants to hear from you three guys. And so I’m turning the tables. William, you always ask the question. So I think you should go first and then Henry Rusty up next.

William Norvell: Oh, goodness, I didn’t see that coming. I didn’t see that coming. Oh, gosh. Where would I go? Oh, gosh. Two to two verses come to mind that I’ve been meditating on. I’ll try both. One Old Testament, one New Testament I’m going to go to and I’ll do it quick. It’s not my strong suit. But first, Peter, five, six and seven, where God says that some version of the paraphrase is that, you know, we need to humble ourselves before God and it’s his job to exalt us. And that has just been meditating hard on my heart lately that my job is to is to serve him and to walk with him and it says that he chooses the time to exalt us if he wants to. And just what I’ve been frustrated when I found times that I thought maybe I should have gotten credit for something or something should have been viewed differently. I’ve tried not that I’m doing it well. Going to God’s. I got. If you want that to happen, you find the time. It’s out of my hands. And it’s not it’s not up to me, right? And that’s really hard and it’s really hard, but I think it’s truth in the second one is a piece of that. These are both sides of humility. Deuteronomy eight, where God says pretty clearly that he took the Israelites through the desert for 40 years so that they would learn humility and just to think at rest there, too, that God does not require anything of me or want me to think of me other than to recognize who he is and to love him for that and to humble myself at his feet and to walk with him every day. Amen.

Rusty Rueff: That’s beautiful. You know, as I reflect back over this year, one of the things that I’ve maybe I was actually projecting when I was talking about how important it is for the conference for us to get together, because one of the things that I miss the most is I’ve missed the intimacy of friendship, like not being able to hang physically with, you know, my most personal friends and have those sort of conversations and things that pop up because, you know, you’re just you’re out working in the garden together or you’re taking a run together, you know, and conversations that come up. And so it really has had me thinking about the importance of reminding myself that Jesus is to be my best friend. And the verse that’s been on my heart is Matthew, six eight for your father knows the things you have need of before you ask him. And, you know, that’s what best friends do, they know the things that you have needs before you ever talk to them about it. And they bring it up to you. And, you know, I I’m I’m such an emotional guy. I mean, I cry at American Idol auditions, so you just need to know that. I mean,

William Norvell: hey, wait, who’s who doesn’t.

Rusty Rueff: So but, you know, I’m just reminded that Jesus is my best friend and that he knows the things that I need before I need them and that he’s gone, you know, in front of me for those things and is has taken care of me. So that’s what’s been on my heart most recently.

William Norvell: Amen.

Henry Kaestner: Well, I really should have gone first because you can’t top either of them two things that have impacted me from scripture recently. One is just the lesson of the good kings of Judah and second Chronicles, where these are the good kings. They’re not the bad kings of good kings. And yet each of them made a really, really bad mistake and not seeking God before making a major decision. For one, it was a trade deal. For others, it was about whether they go off in a war or not. And I think, oh, so God put that second chronicles. So I’ll I’ll be able to make sure that I don’t do the same thing. And because I’ve got the benefit of this type of teaching that they didn’t have at the time. And yet I still find myself not going to God with all my important decisions. And maybe I get the majority. But the good kings are due to have the majority of them. And they just one time, one time didn’t see God and it went really poorly for them. And I just I need to see more of God. We talked about at the beginning of this episode about how David Morgan does that so well and so regularly, habitually, if you will. And I need to do a better job of that. That speaks to me. And the other thing that speaks to me and I shared this with a larger Faith Driven Entrepreneur group that gets together in the area. We’ve been kind of inklings and I shared with them yesterday that as I go through the Bible with my boys and devotions, I love it when you kind of get a summary of the Bible, when somebody says, OK, what really matters is this. There isn’t a moment like that. The other day, as my family and I were going through Galatians five, and it was because we were going to look at the fruits of the spirit together. And of course, if you look at the fruits of the spirit, if you just focus on the fruits of spirit, you won’t find them. If you just focus on love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control, you can’t find it. You find the fruit of the spirit comes from our relationship with Jesus and the fact that we have this relationship with Jesus. Well, what how do we know that we’re really in line with Jesus Christ in us? Is this fruit? So I was going to talk about that with them, but I didn’t. Instead, we just got hung up on verse six and is the second part of verse six. So the first part is for increased Jesus is neither circumcision nor UN circumcision have any value. The only thing they can’t. There’s a second part. The only thing that counts and like, oh my goodness, here we have in the second part of a verse, Galatians five, six, be the summation of the entire Bible. Three thousand pages of it. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. And what I was able to process with them and, you know, just partially, which is, oh, my goodness, if that’s the only thing that matters, how are we as a family, how are we as individuals thinking about how our faith expresses itself through love and how does it even happen? But I just love that just a simple thing to kind of just continue to meditate on. So, Sue. Thanks for turning the tables on the fair turnabout is fair play. That’s never happened. And we’ve probably recorded one hundred and seventy five different podcast episodes. And I’m glad that you did it. I’m glad because I was blessed by William and Rusty. Sharon, thank you.

William Norvell: Need to keep your head on a swivel here on the FDE podcast. Never, never know what’s coming at you.

Henry Kaestner: Head on a swivel and Kleenex next to the computer.

William Norvell: Hey, man, that’s a that could be our first brand Kleenex swag for the conference.