Founding Pastor | Connexus Church

My name is Carey Nieuwhof. I’m a former lawyer and founding pastor of Connexus Church. I’m married to Toni and we have two grown sons.

I’m incredibly passionate about helping people thrive in life and leadership. 

That’s why I write this blog, write books, like my latest best-seller Didn’t See It Coming: Overcoming the Seven Greatest Challenges That No One Expects But Everyone Experiences, host a weekly leadership podcast, speak to leaders all over the world and produce courses like the The High Impact Leader.

As a kid, I decided I wanted to be a lawyer. I’m not sure what needs to be wrong with a kid to want to be a lawyer, but all of that was apparently wrong with me.

I got distracted along the way. At 16 I walked into a local radio station and asked them to hire me, and to my surprise, they did. For the next 8 years radio was one of my part time jobs in my then hometown and later in Toronto.

I got into the law school of my dreams only to have two incredible things happen. I met the most amazing woman I’ve ever met in my first year of law school. We got married before we graduated. By far…she’s the best thing to come out of law school for me!

But the second thing that happened was I experienced a call to ministry. I’d been a Christian since I was a young teenager, but I went through a crisis of faith in my late teens and early twenties. Before attending law school, I recommitted my life to Jesus. At the time, I simply thought it would mean I practiced law as a Christian (yes…that is possible).

Honestly, the call confused me as much as it compelled me. I spent a few years trying to figure out what it meant, praying through it and consulting wise people I knew. I finished law and out of obedience, enrolled in seminary.

In 1995, as I was wrapping up seminary, I started ministry as a student pastor among three little mainline churches an hour north of Toronto. When I started, one of the churches had an average attendance of 6 (not making that up). Much to my surprise (I never thought I’d stay this long), I had discovered a community I’m still a part of over 20 years later.

Our church has changed everything in those two decades…the music, the buildings, our governance, our mission, our vision….everything, really. We even left our denomination and now are a multisite church with three locations reaching over 1500 people each weekend. And Connexus is a North Point Strategic Partner. I love our team and love the mission we’re on together.

LINKS

• Personal Website

PODCASTS FOR THE FAITH DRIVEN ENTREPRENEUR

Bitcoin is no longer a bit-player investment. According to Matt Jennings, faith driven investors should be investing in digital assets like cryptocurrency. And just who is Matt Jennings? He is the head of Kingdom Trust which is currently custodian to $20 billion in assets from some 150,000 investors. Learn more from this pioneer in the financial industry and thought-leader in alternative and digital assets.

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Matt Jennings: Most people want to do something they want to do-have-be instead of be-do-have, so I’ll explain that. So most people want to do something, so then they’ll have something and then they think they’ll be something, right? So in other words, they’re going to work hard. They’re going to make a lot of money and they’re going to be a successful person that really just makes no sense. The more you think about it. And what we’ve been called to do is to be something and then we’ll do something and then we’ll have something, right? And the key is the being.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor and even Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast Luke is with me. Look, I think we’ve got an opportunity to do this. Take this conversation with our friend Matt Jennings. A lot of different ways. It’s great to be in the studio with you.

Luke Roush: Yeah. The two four FDE and FDI on one

Henry Kaestner: the big day. And we’re going and it’s taking us to a state that you love. Why do you love the state of Kentucky?

Luke Roush: Wonderful state of Kentucky is where my parents have lived for the last twenty four years. And it’s a wonderful place. I’m the Kentucky Derby, among many other things, home of many large white tailed deer. As Matt Jennings has repeatedly reminded me of, they are voracious text thread. Thank you, Matt.

Henry Kaestner: That makes it sounds like there are probably fewer white tailed deer because of of Matt Jennings being in that state.

Matt Jennings: Now there’s actually probably a whole lot more. I spend a great amount of money and time feeding and taking care of the herd in Kentucky.

Henry Kaestner: That’s awesome. All right. Good. Good. Good. All right. So we’ve never had an episode where we’ve gone into the theology of hunting, and this is probably not going to be the first one. Let’s go ahead. Let’s talk about your entrepreneurial journey. Let’s talk about what you do with structuring of IRAs. You’re a custodian. You’ve been involved in crypto. So many different things. But what we do with every one of our podcasts, of course, is we try to understand the story of our guest and you and I got a chance to hang out together at the Christian Economic Forum, where Luke was two, of course. And then Luke put together this great junket where we got a chance to go on a road trip to visit a number of the sovereign’s portfolio companies in you. And I got a chance to sit next to each other for a couple of hours going through northern Alabama. And I heard just an absolutely awesome story, and it was just such a no brainer to make sure that you got on. And can you give us a fly over? Who is Matt Jennings and what makes you tick?

Matt Jennings: Oh wow. So born and raised in here in Murray, Kentucky, a little town in western Kentucky, great parents growing up went into my dad’s business, started working there. He owned a meat wholesale meat distributor ship. Well, actually, I started out as a boat mechanic. Believe it or not, and then was part fitter for a period of time at a chemical plant in my early twenties. Didn’t go to college, barely made it through high school. I knew I wasn’t probably cut out for college, so I did the boat mechanic. The pipefitter ended up working in my dad’s meat business till about twenty four and always had a very entrepreneurial mind. Spirit did a lot of things on the side. Through that time, but really made the big step out in 2004 and quit working for the family business kind of left the comfort zone and stepped out. I actually took a job for way less money in the real estate business as a real estate appraiser learned that trade ended up buying the company that I worked for in about six months after I went to work there and began real estate investing really at that time, and God really blessed that saw just really quickly when I grew my appraisal company to the largest one in this area of Kentucky and then began to buy and sell. Ironically, a lot of hunting farms in Kentucky, recreational farms, and that was where I saw my first true, you know, I guess you’d say, like, really true financial success, but I had a burden and a heart and I wanted to do more. And that’s when I started a founded, a company called SPG, which is the Saved by Grace Company, and we formed that company to have both a real estate company. And this crazy idea we had of starting a trust company here in Kentucky so that people could buy real estate and other alternative investments in their tax free tax deferred retirement accounts. And so we we did that in two thousand and nine. I put that together. We actually got it going in 2010, and that’s when Kingdom Trust was born and that was built to be a faith driven company with Chuck and Randy. A couple of buddy of mine started that.

Henry Kaestner: So you end up being. Now, fast forward didn’t go to college. A pipe fitter, a bunch of different types of things. You end up getting real estate investing. Maybe we’ll touch on that. But now one of the largest custodians of digital assets and currencies in the United States, and there’s a faith story in there and you talk about being saved by grace is being one of the the titles of the company. Did you grow up as a Christian? Tell us a bit about your faith.

Matt Jennings: It is. So I grew up. I actually went to a Christian school. My mom and dad are great Christian people. I went to a pretty strict Christian environment when I was in grade school, started in kindergarten. Into the private Christian school, very small school, and I’m very much had rebellion in my teenage years against that. You know, when I say it was a strict environment, it was a very strict environment. And so I really rebelled against that and actually leaving my end of my sophomore year going into my junior year, I was asked to leave the Christian school. That’s a nice way of saying I got kicked out. And so I went to the local public school here, my junior and senior year of high school, and it kind of went a little bit crazy, did some things I shouldn’t do and ended up kind of on the on the wrong side of where I should have been in. But to go back when I was 12 years old, walk the aisle and said the prayer and got dunked under the water. And I clearly remember that I did it through a sense of guilt, and I think I was kind of in some trouble and that was a good way to smooth some things over at home. But I would say between the ages of 12 and thirty four thirty five in two thousand four, which ironically I just mentioned, is another year the same year that I quit my family business and went out on my own. Also, the same year that I truly came to faith and it’s all tied together. But I would say I’d probably ask God to save me hundreds, if not thousands of times, and finally got to the point never felt anything and finally got to the point in life where I really would just say that I just almost forgot about God. I didn’t know if I really believed or didn’t. I was having trouble seeing him in my life. Got married to Kelly, a wonderful wife. When I was twenty one, she was 16 at the time. My goodness. Neither one of us had a job. So our first job I made two hundred dollars a week and she made fifty four dollars a week bagging groceries at Kroger. You know, we just kind of went from there. But fast forward, when we were in our thirties, we had two kids worked in my dad’s family business. I had really gotten off base, had some addictions and things that, you know, not being fruitful in my life. I wasn’t being a good husband. And she saw that and confronted me with that, and we split up for a matter of just a few days. But during that few days, it was a moment I set out on a porch on my farm and just told God. I said, You know, first time I talked to you in years, God. But I don’t know if I believe in you or not, but if if you’re really there, you know, prove it to me. And long story short, over the next couple of days, some really cool things and a guy named Ricky came into my life who was my parents’ pastor at the time, and I went and talked to him and through that ended up realizing that God did love me and that he’d been after me for a long time, and that a whole lot of the reason I was in the situation I was in was because I was running from that calling. So, yeah, so I made a pact to change my life. And that was the moment when I gave my heart to Christ and my wife and I work things out. A couple of months later, she gave her heart to Christ, and I quit my job because I felt like my entrepreneurial calling was one of the big things. That was a problem between me and my wife because she was a security person and I wanted to branch out and go do all kinds of crazy things like entrepreneurs do. And after that moment, she completely devoted to backing me and trusting me, and that allowed me to go and try out some of those crazy things and with her by my side. And so we did.

Luke Roush: How did you invite her into that entrepreneurial journey? I think this is actually a really interesting topic that we have not explored fully on the podcast previously. But you know, many times, whoever the trailing spouse is, if their spouse is an entrepreneur, that person’s generally kind of outrunning, creating, seeing the future, trying to create that, trying to respond to what they feel like is God’s call in their life. How did you invite Kelly into that alongside you after her being really on the outside in the early years of your marriage?

Matt Jennings: Yeah. So I felt like I had invited her in before and got a negative obviously response which to her was just she was a person who, you know, a mom. She was a young mom. We had kids that were, I think, two and four at the time. And for her, it was a big deal for me to quit my job and go start a business or whatever. And so once we came together on that, it was really. Boy, I don’t know how to say it any way other than I let her know that that was really hurting me and how that made me feel, where I hadn’t really let her know that before, and she let me know some things that I was doing that really made her feel. If you’ve ever read the book, Love and Respect read, so I really felt disrespected that she didn’t trust me to go out and make a living on my own. She felt really kind of unloved. Some of the ways that I was treating her and what we figured out was we’d been in this cycle of she’d been saying things or doing things that made me feel disrespected. I had been in return saying things that made her feel unloved. They call it the crazy cycle, I think, in that book. And we just had grown apart. And really, it all started with just something small. And what we did that day would just come back together and decide that we were going to love and respect each other. And so she had to make that sacrifice or surrender or whatever you want to say to say, you know, what is the man he has? He has these dreams. He has this name. I love him. So I’m going to support him even if it scares me to death. And so I really just have to give all that credit to her for reaching that point of saying yes, I’m going to back him, even if it scares me to death.

Henry Kaestner: I guess that’s been a great investment with an incredible ROI.

Matt Jennings: Yeah, yeah, it’s been really good.

Henry Kaestner: So talk to us through a bit of your speaking impact investments. Tell us a bit about how you’ve thought about real estate investing.

Matt Jennings: I love you. I, of course, I became an appraiser by trade, a real estate appraiser. So I’m big on numbers and big on data I’m big on. I believe that you make at least 50 percent, if not more, of your money when you buy at the moment, you buy it. So I’m a bargain investor. I’m big on cash flow using the proper amount of leverage not to get overleveraged, but in real estate. The goal is to take something that makes six or eight percent net return leverage to make, you know, 15 or 20 percent return and do it in a manner where you have insurance. If it burns, you know, pretty low risk where your only real risk is, you know, not being able to find a tenant to rent it. I’ve been really blessed the town I’m in the last 10 years of average ninety nine point two percent occupancy rates in all my rental buildings. So I do a lot of multifamily, I do a few other things as well. But you know, we build a lot. The last five years, I’ve started a building company, so we build most of our own multifamily properties. I had a management company who are sold to a young man that trained under me. I sold him that business and he manages all my properties, and I’ve found that managing properties yourself. Once you get to a particular point, I think it’s great in the beginning. As you learn, once you get to a particular point, you end up hating them. Sometimes if you manage them as opposed to looking at them as a set of numbers, you get to emotionally connected to both the tenants and the experience. Sometimes we try to be faith based. It’s a faith based company that manages my apartment, so we try to treat. Our tenants will look a little bit about

Luke Roush: what that looks like. If you wouldn’t mind Matt about the here, just

Matt Jennings: how your faith, you know, impacts, he does all the managing. So I’m really pretty hands off in that business. My daughter actually just went to work for him with the ambitions of probably her one day managing all my stuff. So he knows he’s kind of probably training his future competition, but he’s doing that as a favor to me. But, you know, I think it’s just love on them for us. You know, we try to be fair to them and we try to love on them. We try to be to show them grace and mercy and understand when they’re in situations. If we know something’s going on in their personal life, you know, with a death or something that you know, something that’s creating sorrow in their life, we try to reach out. And just with a note of, you know, hey, we’re thinking about you and just, you know, just try to go above and beyond, and we’re always open to talk to them to, especially for new people that have moved in because we get it, we do. A lot of college students were in a college town here, with Murray State homogeneous Morant, Memphis Grizzlies now. So we get a lot of kids moving in, so we’re open. Always ask them if they’re looking for a church locally. We’re happy to point them in a few different directions there. We’re not stuck on any one, but we kind of know the ones that we feel like we’ll take them in and love on them. And, you know, treat them like we should treat our brothers and sisters. So that’s how we look at that.

Luke Roush: So maybe a little bit more to just the tension that you feel. So I’m going to come back and pick on something you said a second ago just because I think it’s in. Christine, I think it’s something that a lot of investors feel as you get closer to your investments and as you get closer to portfolio companies, CEOs and kind of all that, you start to really identify and empathize kind of with the situation that they’re in. And yet at the same time, you know, particularly in real estate, right? There’s an obligation to kind of look after the property. How do you hold those things in tension? How do you know when to give grace and when to kind of hold the line and just love to have you speak into how God’s spoken to your heart on that topic?

Matt Jennings: Boy, that’s one that I honestly, I would do my best to to say how I do that, but it’s a hard thing. There’s a great book, actually. I think about that. It’s called Love Works by Joel. Maybe you guys have read that that I’ve had look back to several times when I find myself in situations about how do I deal with this in a loving way, but in a way that is in the best interest of everyone involved? Right. So one thing I learned a long time ago is to avoid I’m a non conflict part. I don’t like conflict, and that hurt me a lot in my early days and I’ve learned to kind of walk up and open the door of the lion’s cage and walk in is always a better scenario and confront it. And, you know, based on how the person on the other side takes that confrontation criticism, then that’s when you have to make a decision of what’s best for everyone involved. Because any time it has to do with an organization, it’s not just you and them involved. There’s a lot of other people, employees, investors and things as well. So I just always try to think about what’s in the best interest overall when I make those decisions.

Luke Roush: Yeah, that’s good.

Matt Jennings: It’s hard.

Henry Kaestner: Before we get back into the investing side and go over and talk about what you’re doing with crypto now, because crypto is all the rage and your business is just absolutely exploded. I want to touch on something that’s more consistent with your entrepreneurial journey and that you’ve developed a drive to serving other entrepreneurs in a way that will ultimately point them to knowing God. Can you tell us a little bit about that framework that you’re in the process of developing? I just found it really encouraging. Walk us through that.

Matt Jennings: Yeah, I found myself in a really low point in March for New Journey Back several years ago. And I mean, when I say low point, I was at a really, really low point and it was a mixture. I think of personal, entrepreneurial, just a lot of stuff, you know, midlife for me, I don’t know, but and I began to search. I started in first, started in the Bible, sought out counsel from Christian friends, all of which was somewhat helpful. But I ended up joining a kind of a secular group for businessmen, CEOs, presidents, things like that and learned a whole lot through that. But it really gave me an idea through that is what I tell you that story. So once I, I just had this light bulb moment and I discovered so many things about myself through that process. And so when I got through that, I began to write things down and I decided I just wanted to share it with other entrepreneurs because I felt many times lonely. I know you guys say it’s a lonely journey. I felt so lonely at that point in my career, I felt almost like I was on an island by myself, and there was no one I could talk to. And I just have a passion for men who find themselves in that situation, and I felt so alone. I want to be there for those guys. So I started putting this together of ran a few groups through it. It’s still unfinished. I pretty well do it on the fly, but it’s really a self exploration. I don’t. When I’ve done it, I just put it on Facebook and say, Hey, do you feel lonely? You know, these struggles sometimes. Do you feel empty? And you know, each time I’ve had eight or 10 guys sign up and it’s really just like a coaching program, but we ask them a lot of questions because what I’ve found is that guys like me and you, Henry, we’re not necessarily really easy to teach things sometimes, but we’re really easy to challenge, right? We don’t necessarily listen if somebody says what you need to do this. I like to figure out myself what I’m going to do. I’ve no idea.

Luke Roush: We’re not talking about Matt at all.

Matt Jennings: That’s kind of an entrepreneur. So I kind of go at it from that angle and I call it the juice because I don’t know if you guys have ever been fishing and stuff like that, but it’s like, you know, the secret sauce. You know, it’s the juice. I got the juice, you know, so I start out by telling the guys that, Hey, you know, I know I’ve got this secret sauce. I got the juice that can set you free from how you’re feeling right now. And I tell them that are going to learn what that is through this about eight week process as we go through now and we start out with some basic questions. And I mean, I’d love to share a few of the questions with you and let you guys ponder on them if you’d like to hear just officially. Yes. OK, so so we start out by asking, who are you? Then we finish that question. With something that’s very profound, we say, really, really, who are you? Very few of them know who they really are. Now start trying to tell you what they do, right? And if you tell them that’s not it, they’ll start going into what they do at home, right? How many kids they have husband, father, whatever. No, no, no, no, no. Who are you, really? So that’s how we start out. And the very next question we ask them is where you’re at in your life right now. Would you say that you are being told through life by passion or push through life, by fear? Mm.

Henry Kaestner: That’s good. What’s the percentage response either way?

Matt Jennings: Ninety five percent have said, pushed by fear of only actually only had one out of about 20 guys that said passion. And two days later, he decided his might be fear. But yeah, so we just we go through a lot of that kind of stuff. We asked them this question to as entrepreneurs, as guys, right? We’re providers and what have you. We’re always trying to get somewhere or get something right. You feel like you wake up every day trying to get some more or get something. So we asked him this question What good is it going to do to you to get somewhere or get something if you sacrifice everything in the process?

Henry Kaestner: I like that. Get somewhere or get something. You know, Luke and I have got a great friend named Tim Oakley, who says We’re always selling something to somebody. And just there is this concept of just trying to make it happen. So you’re trying to get something or get somewhere? Yeah.

Matt Jennings: And what good is it going to do to you to get there if you sacrifice everything in the process? And that leads into some principles around that. The journey is the destination in my life. I don’t know if you guys have ever felt this, but I went through a period where I was like climbing this ladder. I was climbing this ladder, climbing and climbing and climbing it every day, and all I wanted to do is get to the top right. That was the destination was to get to the top of the ladder and climbing this wall on this ladder. I want to get to the top of the ball and get to the other side because that was like the Promised Land, I thought. And so I’ve climbed this ladder climbing it. And then finally, I get to the top and I look over and there’s nothing on the other side. And I think what so many men where we mess up men and women is the journey is the destination. There is no destination in life here on Earth. The journey here on Earth is the reward, it is the destination. And we should live it one day at a time, as Jesus taught one day at a time, not looking backward, not looking forward, living in today and making the best of each and every day. Stop trying to get somewhere and get something. Frantically, you know, the Bible says, Why do you rise early and go to bed late? Eating the bread of anxious toil God provides for those he loves as they sleep. There’s just so much wisdom in that verse, and so then we go in to talking about doing and being, you know, most people want to do something they want to do have be instead of Baidu have. So I’ll explain that. So most people want to do something, so then they’ll have something and then they think they’ll be something, right? So in other words, they’re going to work hard. They’re going to make a lot of money and they’re going to be a successful person that really just makes no sense. The more you think about it. And what we’ve been called to do is to be something and then we’ll do something and then we’ll have something. And the key is the being so there’s there’s never been a human doing. There’s never been a spiritual doing. There’s human beings and spiritual beings. Which leads me to another question. We asked our guys is would you consider yourself a human being having a spiritual experience or a spiritual being having a human experience?

Henry Kaestner: Mm-Hmm. So this is as you lead them into faith because I know that there’s a good number of these folks, unlike the Faith Driven Entrepreneur, of course, that we have, which is primarily focused on Christ virus because it starts off with call to create an identity crisis. We’re right up there. Was curious through this framework. When you start introducing your faith into it, whether it’s on the being side. Talk to us a little bit more about that. Does it ever conversation, ever turn back around to you and somebody says, Well, what about you? What about you, man? Who are you being?

Matt Jennings: So the first several weeks of it, I don’t mention God. Obviously, we talk about spirituality, but I never go into who God is. We just talk through these principles and we start going through all kinds of principles. We talk about learning your yes, is in your nose, and we talk about how I believe that we’ve all been created to win but programed to fail, right? Or created for success, but program for failure. And so we talk about all those things, and in the end, about week eight, we kind of say, Hey, just so you know, all of these things I just taught you came from one guy. Would you like to know who that guy is? Because I’d love to share with you who the guy is if you’re interested. And that’s what we’re going to do next week. If you want to come back for the final week, I’m going to tell you who the guy is and and that’s when we start out in Matthew five, because most of these principles comes right out of the Beatitudes. In the sermon on the Mount, the Jesus taught about getting your head and your heart aligned. You know, Jesus said blessed is he whose head and heart is aligned because then he’ll be able to see God in the outside world. Blessed is he who’s at the end of the rope because there he’ll find less of himself and more of God. And a lot of what we’re talk about in the group is about getting your head aligned with your heart. And so in the end, we go through and we show them where this came from. And the overwhelming response I’ve gotten to this point has been that’s not the Jesus I was taught about. That doesn’t even like I never even caught a hint that that would have been something from the Bible or that Jesus would have taught. Right? And so that gives me an opportunity to then share that, you know, the Bible is not a rule book. It’s a love story. And so many people, particularly in my area where I live in what they call the Bible Belt, or at the time of the Southern Bible Belt Country. And so, so many people have what I call this wrong impression of God and Jesus, and that gives me a chance to I’ve already had eight weeks to show them that love before they turn around and try to run from it. That makes sense. It does. So yeah, what

Henry Kaestner: you’ve done is you systematically shown them their need for a savior in their something’s, not altogether right, and that the framework that they had their belief system has been letting them down. They’re feeling driven by something, and they realize that it’s not going to the place where they want. They know their priorities are out of whack and it’s not revealing their type of fulfillment. So you’ve helped them walk through that framework to get there and then you’re showing them a better way.

Luke Roush: Yeah. Just to interject. How do you go from, you know, real estate and hunting farms? We talked a little bit about the gravel mine that we started, which I’m pumped to go see myself at some point. But how do you transition from that into a trust company and what we now know to be a pretty meaningful platform for cryptocurrency? So maybe just talk a little bit about that pivot or what God did through that and then maybe also speak to why cryptocurrency is something that believers should be interested in understanding more about and what the redemptive potential is for that instrument.

Matt Jennings: So Kingdom came about from my love of real estate, and I wanted to put it in my retirement account. I found that process very difficult. At first, I was told it was impossible, then it became difficult, and I found out it’s not impossible or difficult. So I thought, Hey, somebody needs to start a company to do this. So that was the original kind of idea behind Kingdom Trust. Once we started it, we had to become a regulated trust company, just like a bank. We’re chartered in South Dakota. We had to do all that to started and few years into it, I was not the CEO early on and I was just a founder and I think I was executive vice president or something. But I was running a real estate business kind of separate from that and a few years into it. Things weren’t going so well, and in 2014 I got asked by my partners in the board to become the CEO, which was one of the hardest times in my life. I really did not desire to lead a large group of people. I never felt like that was my calling. That’s the reason I didn’t choose to be the CEO. In the beginning, when I founded the company, so I sat at my desk one night and there was two books laying on my desk. I had my head down. I was praying. I was just honestly kind of lost. It was after I’d been asked to take it over. It was broke in a very bad situation and I looked up and there was a dictionary and a Bible. I felt like I just felt like something, said the answer to your problems is in this. I ran the numbers every way there was and there was no way to manage out of this problem. We had to grow out of it because we just weren’t big enough. We had at the time, we had about 900 million in assets under custody. I think we were maybe a thousand or two thousand customers. And I opened the dictionary and I looked at growth and I wrote the definition of a down. And I took G R, O W, T h, and I started looking through my Bible and thinking and I wrote down on G. I put goals. And the definition in the dictionary was an object of a person’s ambition, effort or a desired result. So I put down this is a note to myself. Have I still have this same original paper in my desk? I read it every day. Have a clear vision and an open mind. Think big and always stay focused on the goal. And I put four r. I put reward in. The definition of that in the dictionary was something given in recognition of one service, effort or achievement. And I said always inspire, motivate, appreciate, recognize and reward others that help you achieve your goals. And I put O Orchestrate a range or direct for a desired effect or performance. And I wrote a note to myself Orchestrate a team that is talented individuals at each play their part in the overall performance and reach the goals and always reward them. You got to remember, this is a guy, it’s taken over a company without an education, don’t know how to run it. It’s kind of a Wall Street company. And I’m a part fitter and a boat mechanic. So, so, so then I got the W and I said, Wow, and I look that up and it said to impress or stop someone greatly. And I said, Always strive to wow your customers, friends, employees and family by going above and beyond to meet their needs and and exceed their expectations. I got to tell you, I put trust and this was been the big one for me. I think because I was, as I said, was a little bit. I had a fear of being a leader. So on trust, I looked it up and it said firm belief in the reality, truth and ability or strength of someone or something. And I wrote, always be honest and ethical with high integrity. Be a servant leader at home and at work that people will follow toward the goal, not because it’s required of them, but because they trust you. And then I got to H, and the first word that came to me was humble, which I looked up in the dictionary and it said, not proud or arrogant, modest to be humble, although successful. And the note I wrote to myself was always Remember where you came from and who put you there? Keep faith and family as your top priority. Always keep your trust in God and others. Lead with love and never look down on anyone. Make tough decisions decisively with care and compassion for others, but always in the overall best interest of everyone involved. Give help those in need knowing that the ultimate goal is to see the one in which you have put your trust and what he is orchestrated on your behalf. Wow, what a humbling moment and a magnificent reward. And then I put a verse on there Matthew twenty three twelve who ever exalts himself, will be humbled and who ever humbled themself will be exalted. And I honestly, I wrote down below that because I didn’t have a plan. Didn’t really know what kind of plan to have. I put focus on the principles and the performance will take care of itself. And I wrote that that night and I will never forget it. I met with my who was my personal account, and at the time he did no work for the business at all. And I asked him to help me figure out a growth plan for the business, and I told him how many accounts I thought we could grow. And we wrote all this stuff out and did a five year plan. And it looked really great on paper, but I had no idea what I was really talking about and he didn’t either. It’s kind of ironic. I forgot all about that plan, and about a year ago, I actually ended up hiring him about two or three years ago. He’s now my CFO, and about a year or two ago, he came running in my office and he said, Man, I was going through some old paperwork and I found that he said, You remember that, not that you came to my office and we built this growth plan for Kingdom. I said, Yeah, I remember that night. It’s the same night I wrote this growth thing here. He said, I want you to see something. And he laid down that growth plan and he laid down Kingdom’s financials for that five years and they were within point two, five percent of each other every year, year after year, for five years. At that moment, I thought, Oh, wow, how amazing, because we neither one of us had any clue that not we sat down and did that. So that’s kind of my faith story there and how God came back five years later to say I was there that night.

Henry Kaestner: See, as you go through your growth framework, I didn’t write them all down and I haven’t seen it before. But the humility which you ended with shows itself in all of the different letters. The other thing that showed up was an interest in others. A couple of different times you talked about rewarding others along the way and being thoughtful about others that came through at least three times, if not more. And talk a little bit about the culture at Kingdom Trust we’re going to bridge into. For those of us who are listening, wondering about crypto and in your take on crypto, we’re going to get there. But I think that these lessons along the way, because how many? What do you have now? Under custodian assets, more than 10 billion write

Matt Jennings: about 20 billion, 20 billion at one hundred and hundred, and forty thousand customers are thinking about around 20 billion.

Henry Kaestner: OK, so how do you get there? Is it a brilliant technology algorithm? Is it some sort of massive arbitrage or is it the ability to lead a team well toward an end goal and get them fired up about achieving it? And my sense is that rather than some sort of major financial. Well, engineering deal, though, I think know when you get to 20 billion dollars of assets, you surely have to have a competency when you scale 140000 customers. You got to have a nail down shop. You’ve got to have great process and procedure and you’ve got to take away a lot of friction. But along the way, you got to lead people talk about the culture that’s come about since you sat down with that growth framework and what it looks like their work at Kingdom Trust.

Matt Jennings: Yeah, leading those people was the biggest fear of my life. I’m just being honest. It’s something that I have. Public speaking and leading people were the two things I never thought I would ever do in my life. So and I do a lot of both now and in have learned to enjoy it. But so I just started empowering people at the time that I wrote that we had about 20 employees. We got down to about maybe four that we kept through that we had a lot of people in the wrong bus, we had a lot of people in the wrong seats on the bus. When I came in and we had a lot of people that didn’t buy into the change that I was making because I we changed everything about the company after that and it was one of the more difficult times in my life. But over about a four or five month period, we maneuvered everybody around and went from 20 employees to about twenty five, but only kept four of the original 20 and. The four that we kept are three of them are still there today. Amen, they’re my posse. We’ve been in the trenches together and they have been and will be greatly rewarded, particularly when we choose one day to exit. And I’ve tried to reward them, but we also had a light that came in in that original 20, something that I hired back. Most of those are all still there. We’ve got about one hundred and twenty, I think now one hundred and fifty somewhere in there. So man, I just always try to love and we have we had Friday morning meetings and always try to share something with them in that meeting. That’s totally nothing to do with work and be vulnerable and open and transparent as I possibly can and be someone, as I said in the T. Someone that they will follow because they trust me. Not because they think I’m right. Not because they think they have to or or else, you know, they’ll get fired or whatever. Someone that they will get behind me and follow me into this crazy market that we went into that pretty much nobody in Murray, Kentucky, understands or knows about until they come in to work for us. We’re the only company in that type of industry here. So they all learn in-house, but they come in and they they will follow because they trust me. And now it’s not only just me, it was me then. Now it’s because they trust the other people. And since then, I’ve moved to chairman. About a year ago, we hired a young guy, a very successful guy named Ron. Brad Laffey started a company called CoinShares over in Europe. It’s now a publicly traded company, kind of similar to what we do. But over in Europe, he’s now the CEO and I step back from that CEO, and now he leads the charge. Very faith driven, very driven guy. And now he’s the guy that they really follow on a day to day basis, and they trust him and they believe in him in what we do. And so we made the switch into crypto in 2015. We actually started cursing crypto. In 2016, we became the first regulated financial institution in America to custody bitcoin and crypto. Some people say we were the first regulated financial institution in the world. I’ve never done the data research on the world. I know for positive. We were the very first one in the United States. And with that has come a lot of blessings and a lot of challenges. In the early days, we definitely had a bull’s eye on our back when we chose to step out on that limb.

Luke Roush: I’d love to just maybe have you wrap. We always try to kind of wrap with how God is speaking to you now, Matt, and what you believe he’d have you share with the audience that you haven’t already shared. You’re a winsome guy who’s had a lot of wonderful experiences and a lot of success, and in many ways, an unlikely road moving into trust crypto, just as you talked through. But what has God put on your heart recently? And what would you leave our listeners with?

Matt Jennings: Well, we’re talking to entrepreneurs, so I think the first thing would just be encouragement that I look back through my entrepreneurial experiences and there’s been ups, there’s been downs, there’s been some really high highs and some really low lows. And what I’ve figured out was there is many times that I felt like God wasn’t speaking to me and looking back, I know now it’s because I was doing all the talking and listen, be still and know that I am God. You know, I would say when you’re in the tough spot, listen to God and the people who are unbiased and love you all around you. That would be number one. And the other one would be a question that I ask my guys kind of goes along with questions that were asked and earlier is what does wealth really mean to you? And really, really sit down and think about really what this will mean to you. You know, and I’ll tell you what it means to me. Yeah, to me, wealth means all my needs are met physically, emotionally, relationally, everything right, like all my needs are met and they’re met abundantly. That’s what wealth means to me. But I would challenge each person thinking about what does well mean to you. I hope it’s so much more than money to the guys and gals that are listening to this. And once you kind of think about what is wealth to you, then are you really pursuing and chasing true wealth? Are you chasing something else? Right? So that would be kind of my challenge to everybody.

Henry Kaestner: That’s very good word, ma’am. May I thank you for your friendship, your encouragement. Thank you for getting out there and miss all the different things you’ve got going on. Actually, point in the eyes of these 20 men because I know how much you’ve grown, how much you scaled. Most people in your position would say, I just don’t have the time. And yet you’ve done that. You’ve been really intentional about getting folks involved. And and that’s encouragement to me as encouragement to Luke, and we’re grateful to partner with you in the ministry.

Matt Jennings: I’d just like to say to you before I get off your guys, that for years I ran a faith driven company and I did not know a single other Faith Driven Entrepreneur other than myself and my two buddies. And I think that’s one reason that my journey seems so lonely at times. And I found you guys just six months ago, whatever it’s been now. And I honestly just wake up every day more encouraged through that, and, you know, I’ve signed up for one of your classes with, you know, I don’t even remember who I signed up with the leader. I just kind of did any MIT mo. But I’m super excited about doing that. But I’m so pumped and excited to see Henry that God gave you the vision to go out and reach guys like me. And I have the same vision in many ways, but honestly, I did not know how to move that vision forward, and it’s so cool. The first time that I honestly, the first time I went to your website, I got tears in my eyes and was just like, Why haven’t I seen this before? You know, because what you guys are putting together there is amazing. So kudos to you guys for what you’re putting together. It’s great

Luke Roush: encouragement. It’s a great and charisma.

Henry Kaestner: That’s that’s awesome. So we’re going to put you in a cohort with a bunch of other guys did all this. We try to keep it above those that have above $20 billion in custodial assets. And so you’re going to love this group of people. It’ll be you and yourself. We got a great group, we got great cohorts there, and I think we’ve got a five or six hundred people going through FDE groups. If you’re listening to this right now and and you’re interested in joining a group to process how God is working through you and your entrepreneurial life or your investing life, along with people like Matt, please check out the website. Matt, thank you for blessing our audience. Thank you for blessing Luke and I and a new friendship and looking forward to more road trips with your brother.

— by Amanda Lawson

It’s not much of a stretch to say that the past two years have been a fight—for health and safety, for peace, for maintaining our jobs and organizations, and more. For many business owners, simply keeping the doors open and employees’ direct deposits submitted on time was a major struggle. Others dealt with furloughs and lay-offs and the burden of guilt that came with difficult decisions. Government stimulus funds mitigated some of the strain, but could do little to mollify the personal (and intrapersonal) tension that accompanied workplace pandemic struggles. In many cases, merely surviving in business felt like an uphill battle for which we were ill-equipped.

Paul encourages believers in a letter to the Ephesians to “put on the full armor of God” (Ephesians 6:11) in order to withstand the difficulties of life, reminding the Body of the salvation, righteousness, truth, and peace the gospel of Jesus Christ provides. While this is a joyful exhortation, it gets even better. The armor protects us from susceptibility to attack, it’s a great defense. Paul also refers to the “sword of the Spirit” (Ephesians 6:17) as part of the holy armor the Body needs, yet his point to the Ephesians was to persevere in defense of faithful living. But a team with only a good defense is not a good team. You need an offense. 

It seems like Christians (Team Jesus, if you will) have been building up good defenses—especially in our work—but if we are to truly walk in the joy, power, and freedom Christ offers us, we also need a strong offense. 

Throughout Scripture, words (ie. the mouth) are considered to be as strong as a double-edged sword. Twice in Revelation, Jesus is described as having a double-edged sword, at one point, coming out of His mouth (Revelation 1:16, 2:12). This is in fulfilment of prophecy in Isaiah about the Servant of the Lord, whose mouth was “like a sharpened sword” (Isaiah 49:2). The writer of Hebrews explains “the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12). 

We’ve all heard the phrase “the pen is mightier than the sword.” Whether from our parents trying to temper our anger with classmates as kids, or us filling out a customer survey after a rough interaction with a business, the power of words is not a shock. So, if the word is such a mighty weapon and we are believers who have access to Scripture, we have an amazing weapon to pair with our armor. We can mount a strong offense in addition to girding ourselves with defensive helmets, breastplates, and shields.

It begs the question, why do we use a butter knife when we have access to a sword? We have the very Word of God at our disposal. The mightiest sword in existence is sitting on our coffee tables, bookshelves, and even housed in an app on the phones in our pockets. Yet so often we stick to cheap, worldly encouragements in our interactions—especially at work. We tell struggling coworkers “you can do it” and “things will get better,” and we tell ourselves the same things when times get rough. 

But these well-intended encouragements don’t hold much weight. The truth and hope of Scripture, however, is living and active and incredibly powerful. It endures through the hardest seasons. When we are struggling to navigate the ups and downs of living and working in our ever-changing world, the lasting truth in the Word of God is the encouragement we need. 
When we put on the armor of God and we wield the sword rightly, we are a team with a powerful defense and offense against the battles of this world. So, let’s stop grabbing butter knives when we have access to a holy Excalibur. Let the words we speak truly bring life, build up the Body, and be the foundation for how we live every part of our lives, secure in the power of His Word.

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David Platt serves as Lead Pastor at McLean Bible Church in Washington, D.C. He is the founder of Radical and author of books like Radical… Something Needs To Change and Counter Culture. Today David joins us to talk about what it means to be radically generous and how the world might look if faith driven investors and entrepreneurs stepped into this great opportunity. 

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

David Platt: Seeing people, I just read a story of somebody coming to Christ in a unreached part of the world like to have the opportunity to be a part of that is awesome and to have the opportunity to be a part of making the glory of Christ known and experiencing a joy that’s deeper than anything this world has. Yeah, may we all like jump into this?

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur and even Faith Driven Investor podcast, we’re going to combine these two audiences into a really special episode with a great and very special guest who’s going to talk about a subject is very, very dear to me. And then also dear to my guest co-host Daryl Heald. Daryl, welcome to the program.

Daryl Heald: Yeah, thanks anyway. Super excited to be here, and I always love bringing someone like David Platt into the conversation.

Henry Kaestner: It’s a big deal. So here’s why we’re talking to David this morning. If you listen to this podcast long enough, you’ve come to understand that I have had to kind of born again moments at age twenty eight after short career in Wall Street in New York City. I came to faith at age 28 and it changed everything moved in North Carolina, and to set my life on this new trajectory started bandwidth, you know, is a beautiful thing. At age 38, after having had some success at bandwidth and starting to give more money away. I got on the radar of this guy named Darrell Heald, actually a friend of ours, mutual friend of ours said. And you get to meet this guy. Darrell Hill and I met Darrell, and at the time, Kim and I were trying to give more money away, and I got a chance to tell Darrell about some of the ministry projects. We were excited about some of the ones we were starting in Durham, North Carolina, and some of the other things. And Darrell listened very, very patiently to me and just the really super one, some guy that may or may not come across if you don’t see the video of this. But now he’s got a great voice, too. He asked me this question, though, that really sent me really in a bit. He said, You know, Henry, I think I get all of these things, but tell me, why do you give? And then I mumbled through something that was probably theologically seamless, I might have even said something like, I don’t know, I want to pay it forward or something like that, and that’s not awful, but it’s not really maybe the best answer. And Darrell didn’t grade my answer. Like, say, the guys do that was awful, although maybe he was thinking it. But in the next six months is I open up God’s word. One of the things that when I had come to faith, I had been told that, you know, spend time in God’s word. So I had been doing that faithfully. But over the course the next six months, it seemed that everything I read in the Bible had something to do with money, even when ostensibly didn’t like, you know, the passage of God taking five loaves and two fish and feeding 5000. For me, it was like, Oh my goodness, God doesn’t need my money. He can take something out of nothing. And so six months or a year later, I came back to Darrell with my answer, a real answer, which is, you know, I give because I’m grateful for the gift given me. And I credit Darrell and God using Darrell and then God using his word for what I call my born again again moment. And why are we dedicating an episode to Henry’s Born Again Again moment? While we’re doing that because money had and has and continues to have a pretty big grasp on me. And it’s because I’m an entrepreneur and you, as you listen to this as an entrepreneur, as an investor, likely know what I’m talking about. And maybe you don’t struggle with it to the same degree that I have had. But my hope is that by listening to this in here in just a little bit of my story and then having this unpacked first by Darrell and then David that you’ll become closer to God too, because I realized that at the time when Kim and I were given 20 percent away, we thought there’s probably a special place in heaven for the double tither. You know, you get Fox, it’s the Angels games. There’s something, something in it for you. But we also realized after the six month process that God probably only had about 20 percent of our hearts and he wanted 100 percent. And so as an entrepreneur, money is our scorecard. It’s how we know we’re advancing. It’s the unit that we pay other people, we recruit other people. It’s the one that we negotiate in each and every day, and it’s got a larger than life. Hold on us and we need to talk about it. We need to talk about it openly and candidly and can’t think of two better people to do it. So. Darrell, the guy who 13 years ago, I credit with my born again again experience. Thank you for being my guest co-host today.

Daryl Heald: Yeah, I’m excited about it. Thanks for those words, and it is exciting to see you. When we think about this, I think one of the things that we we can get into this with David as well. But you know, money’s an isolating thing too. And so unfortunately, most of us are having this conversation in our own head. And so the ability for us to be able to do this together just like the way you and I have over the last 13 years been like a constant conversation, right? So we had this one kind of similar one. But then it’s just we’ve continued to kind of work that out together. And I think that’s really what God intended, right in community, right in the family. We can talk about it. But this is one of the subjects that we don’t talk about a lot. We don’t talk about our giving. Even with some of our best friends and a lot of times that even with our spouse, if we’re married. So I think the whole thing about where we can put this into a context to where you are in the right relationships, in the right context, we should be talking about it just like we talked about all the other aspects of, you know, who we are in Christ Amen.

Henry Kaestner: Indeed. OK, so we couldn’t think of a better guess, of course, to help us to get in this. And of course, we should expect from David that I’ll talk about just little baby steps just gradually getting in. No, just kidding. Quite the opposite. I don’t know anybody who’s challenged me more in the way that I think about giving than David. And so, David, we’re going to talk about all, about all, about that. But as we do with any guests, it comes on the program. We’re trying to get a little bit of an autobiographical sketch. You know, who are you? Where do you come from? What brings you up through to being hired as a pastor, the senior pastor at Church of Brook Hill. So tell us about who you are and where you come from, please, and thank you for joining and thank you for spending the time.

David Platt: Man, it’s so good to be with you guys. I’ve been looking forward to this. I’m just thankful and even listening to you guys right now have been in our previous interactions. Just thankful for God’s grace and you all. And even as you’re sharing Henry, just praying that maybe even the next few minutes, God might do some of that born again kind of work in a fresh way in somebody’s heart. So anyway, yeah, a little background on me. So right now I’m pastor of McLean Bible Church in Metro Washington, DC. I’ve been here for about three years shepherding this church that has over 100 nations represented in it, trying to make disciples the nations here and send people from here to make disciples the nations all around the world. You mentioned I started pastoring at Church of Burkle’s in Birmingham. Alabama was there for a. While for about eight years thought maybe the Lord is leading me overseas at that point. But he ended up leaving me to the International Mission Board. International Missions Organization sports 4000 thousand or so brother and sister serving among underage people around the world, and so did that for a few years before stepping back into the role of pastoring. I love walking with God’s word through life and all that it entails on the front lines of mission in the world. As a pastor, so that’s a bit as far as ministry wise. My wife and I have four kids at our home right now, and then we’re in the process of adopting potentially five or six. So we’re just,

Henry Kaestner: I’m sorry what? You said you’re in the process of adopting five or six of number

David Platt: five or number six. Oh, OK, good. Not an additional five or six kids. Now that the dust from know, OK. That puts it in perspective. We thought maybe we were a little crazy for you on four or five or six. So now it doesn’t feel near as much if we’re talking actually five or six more

Henry Kaestner: so far, be it for me to challenge you the way that you’ve challenged me now. So you’re twenty six years old, you were hired to pasture, really a megachurch. So for those of us like me who are parents and raising up kids, I’m fascinated to know just a little bit before it. I want to talk about secret church. We obviously want to talk about generosity. But what is your life growing up? Did you grow up in a Christian home? I mean, what does it look like to, you know, to be in a spot where at age 26 people see you’re anointing? And just like this is the person to lead and lead an organization at scale? So what were the first 25 years like, man?

David Platt: Just pure grace. Henry Yes. I grew up in a home where mom and dad taught me the gospel since the day I was born. I’ll just say the obvious I had nothing to do with where I was born. That’s the pure mercy of God. I don’t know why I was born into a family like that instead of in your village where they still haven’t even heard the name of Jesus. So, yeah, so I grew up and had a great local church that raised me. I was just talking with somebody from that local church last week, and I just overwhelmed in a fresh way by God’s grace toward me and the men and women who poured their life into me from children’s ministry type thing. I think about a student ministry. He gave me my first opportunity to preach when I was in eighth grade, which I don’t think was probably the wisest thing for him to do. But he did anyway, and it was like a youth service is like 100 people and I can preach on any text. And I chose Revelation three, like the church that lay out to see a God saying I was spewing out of my mouth and I remember starting the sermon. I walk up there with a bottle of water, and before I said anything, I took a sip and spit it out in the front row. I was like, That’s what God thinks you’re going to start, man anyway. So but all I had to say to have a church to like, walk through with me alongside that and like, maybe that could be helpful or unhelpful in different ways. But I’m just I am so indebted to God’s Grace Church. And so anyway,

Daryl Heald: and that is one of the best start stories I’ve ever heard. Yeah, yeah.

David Platt: So, yeah, thank you for sharing. As long as you weren’t on the front row, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Henry Kaestner: Baptism. So, OK. We’re going to talk about your bus. We’re going to spend a lot of time talking about generosity, of course, before we do that. Secret church. Super cool title. Super cool subject. Tell us about Secret Church, what it is and how it got started.

David Platt: Yeah. So my first trip to East Asia. So I’m in this country where the church gathers underground and I had taken a group there just to share the gospel in some unique ways and a place where it’s legal to share the gospel. But it was about four weeks I was there and about two weeks in. I met this couple who led an underground house church network there. They found out that I had a Ph.D. and taught at seminary. And they said, Hey, would you be willing to spend some time with our church leaders? So I said, sure, I would love to. And so they said, Well, maybe tomorrow will gather them together and we’ll have a Bible study. So I was like, OK, so we gather in the secret place like they sneak me in. They all come at different times and this secret location where we gather, I thought we were going to do a Bible study for, you know, an hour, maybe two or eight hours later, we were still going strong. And they’re just eating up the word and they’re like, Can we do this again tomorrow? I was like, Yeah, sure. What time there? Let’s go early in the morning. So I said, like a Mr. Morning Bible, say this. I know we’ll go till very late at night. And so I basically got together with him the next morning and for the next 12 days, for eight to 12 hours a day, just gathering these secret locations with these brothers and sisters to study the word. And there were so hungry like they love God’s word, and after I risked their lives to know it and study it, and they were just so. After spending that kind of time with them, I came back and I like, why don’t we hunger for the word like this? And so we decided to start something we said. I don’t know if anybody will show up, but we’re going to do Friday night. We’ll just go six hours like six to midnight and we’ll have intensive study in the word and prayer for our persecutor brothers and sisters around the world. So just have a unique event where we just bring people together like that and then we’ll record that and translate it into. So the whole idea was translate the content into different languages, specifically the language of these brothers and sisters that I was now connected with in order to provide them with more training. And so that first time about a thousand people showed up and it was a powerful night of praying for the persecuted church and just intends to stay in the world. And then since then, we’ve now done twenty one of them and it’s now sound ’cause we just did it a couple weeks ago, had 50000 or so people around the world are involved every year. We do this and just praying for the persecuted church intensive study in the world. So yeah, that sacred church. I love

Daryl Heald: it. Thanks, David. It’s really exciting, you know? And actually, Henry and I have been able to travel quite a bit together, and it really is amazing when we think about what you think about church and we’re sitting here, you know, here in the US and kind of how church is, you know, in a Western culture to be able to experience, you know, the church in a global context, whether that’s in the south or the east or the middle. It’s just it’s been so encouraging and I’m with you and Andreas, too with that so

David Platt: well, I’ll just mention like I think about not even just all day training and weren’t just a worship gathering where it was like late at night. I tell people, just imagine putting on, you know, jacket with a hood on over your head and then snuck in to this village and you get out of the car and your head down and they lead you down this little path. Little flashlight around the corner into this small room and there’s like 60 believers just crammed into a light bulb hanging in the middle. And these brothers and sisters are gathered together in the middle of the night and the rest of their lives to stop and study the word. And I always say, and I mean, there is, and we’re about to talk about like ways to help giving at the same time. Like sometimes we think, well, how can we help them get a lot more resources than this or that? And somewhere along the way, they’ve gotten the idea of the word of God and the spirit of God to be the church and spread the gospel, the place and the right. And so, yeah, there are definitely ways like I said, I know we’re going to talk about where we can come alongside, but there are trust in God’s word and spirit in a way that’s not dependent on so much of the stuff that we surround ourselves with today.

Daryl Heald: Yeah, that’s that’s a great word. I mean, the simplicity of it and we know this, that the God’s intentions never go unfunded right in his time into his glory. So, you know, no matter where it is. But I think we sometimes we try to think, well, they need this right. And in a lot of times, I think what you’re saying is, we need this, we need that, we need that. So. So David, one of the questions that we love for you to, you know, Henry gave us a C-minus. We’re expecting A-plus answer from you on on this. You know, when you think about it, because obviously you’re working in a church leading a church, you’ve looked at this, you know, in a global national level. But what do you see when we think about generosity and the church? What do you see or, you know, like some of the highlights? And then what are some things you feel like we could definitely work on that were missing side highlights?

David Platt: When I think about generosity, I would say where my heart is most encouraged as a pastor is when I see generosity as the overflow of someone’s intimacy with Jesus. And why start there in my mind is because I really do think generosity is a discipleship issue. I mean, what did you just say where your treasure is there? Your heart will be. Also, our treasure is a reflection of our hearts. And so our heart that is enthralled with Jesus and with his purpose in the world is going to be clear and the way we use our treasure. So I think that can be frightening in the sense that a lack of generosity is indicating there’s something missing when it comes to intimacy with Jesus and to start there and not to think so. That’s where whenever we talk about generosity is going to be very careful not to start to go on immediately to here’s all these needs. You have so much. So yes, there’s that picture, there’s that picture. But it’s even deeper than that. It’s just the overflow of the love of Jesus in us. And so I love it. I love it when I see someone growing and I think about a guy I was having lunch with last week. He is super successful in business, and he came to know Jesus a few years ago, and it has totally transformed his life. The way he uses his resources, even the way he puts it this. Hope like he’s excelling in business, but his hope is clearly not in his achievements in business and the money he’s making, and it’s all he sees at all is a bigger picture. How can I make the love of Christ known in the world like so that’s what causes my heart to rejoice, to see somebody in love with Jesus. He’s sitting there with his Bible at the table when I get there. He’s so in a Psalm 63 way. That’s where I was in my time with the Lord this morning. Just so in love with thirsting for God and then longing for his life to be used for the glory of God in the world. I’m using the overflow of his work that he started entrepreneurially toward that end. It’s I love that. And so what concerns me as a pastor is when I see people either just not being generous and I just see that as a reflection of, OK, there’s something wrong, something missing that born-again kind of moment in their heart, or maybe some giving, but it’s almost obligatory or feel like I just want to appease my conscience or check off a box when that’s nowhere close to all. Now, God will still use that first sleep, but it’s nowhere close to all that God has for that person and for fruit that he wants that person to be a part of. Bearing in the world?

Daryl Heald: Yeah. Love it. Fantastic. Thank you, David.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, I love that too. And one of the reasons I love it is because it took me a long time to be able to reconcile the selfish ambition that I have felt and part of that and just really looking for joy and of course, also pithy and cliché. But, you know, in working on Wall Street and being a part of my entrepreneurial journey, looking for satisfaction and joy in all the things that I thought the world had to offer. But one of the things that fueled my generosity story has been a selfish ambition of experiencing joy and finding that an intimacy with God in a taste of it and wanting more. And so I had wrestled with that kind of selfish ambition for a while and thinking, I’ve got to die to self and I’ve got to be a sacrificial giver. And I think that there’s elements in scripture that I think informs some of that, but that when I was able to reconcile the fact that I just really wanted to know God and to be with him. And then this kind of reinforcing loop that as I get to know him and how much he loved me, more and more it made me feel more and more generous. I felt more and more joy. And I’m like, Well, I’m an investor. I invest in pattern recognition. As I get closer to God, I feel more joy, I feel more generous. And that reinforces this whole thing, and I get more and more joy when I reflect back to my prior life, which was 20 percent joy, I think, back that day. And that’s what I want for entrepreneurs, too. When you’re working, you talked about this one entrepreneur that got that. You must also see lots of rich young rulers that don’t get it. And Leave always said, Could you riff on that a little bit about what you see as the obstacles of people really understanding this intimacy with Christ, particularly among the business owners and the entrepreneurs that you’ve minister to?

David Platt: I’m so glad you mentioned that in my mind was just immediately going enriching ruler and specifically when it comes to joy and and there’s another person that’s going to my mind. So, yes, rich young ruler. I mean, that’s what I love about what Jesus says to him. Go sell all you have give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come follow me. Like, just to think about that. That’s not a call. Ultimately, it’s not a call to sacrifice. I do have treasure in heaven is not a sacrifice to be smart. He’s basically saying it’s realism is dumb. You don’t want to bank your life on that, which won’t last like banker life on that, which is going to last. Like, I’m calling you so much better treasure and not just treasure in heaven as far as fruit, but come follow me like Jesus is the ultimate treasure. It’s like the Matthew thirteen forty four, right? The man who’s walking in a field stumbles upon a treasure that he realizes is worth more than everything else he has put together. And nobody else knows it’s there. So it kind of covers it up and he goes and he sells everything he has, the tech says with gladness, like with joy that he has. And I can just imagine people saying, you’re nuts, like, why are you buying that field over there with joy and selling everything you have? And he’s like, Huh, I got a hunch. And he smiles inside because he knows he’s found something that is worth losing everything for. And that’s that’s what Rapture like. Let’s see, like Jesus is, is this good? His purpose is in the world are going to last for the next 10 trillion years and beyond. So what greater joy can there be than to follow him wholeheartedly? Not reserve? Not kind of in the world, kind of for Jesus, like wholeheartedly. You’ve got my all. And to be a part of what he is doing in the world for his glory. Like yes, sign. Like why would anyone who is smart like now want to sign up for that? Anybody who is a wise investor, which I’m assuming most everybody listening to this knows some things about wise investing, but I guess that’s the question. Do we know things about wise investing based on? What the world defines as wisdom or what God defines as wisdom. And to really say, like wise investing is treasure in heaven. Wise investing is following Jesus in my heart. And so the other person that immediately comes to my mind, I think about this. And this is a perfect example of born again, like, really born again. So he has spent decades in the church as a successful businessman. I mean, he’s the kind of guy who was asked to be on every church committee, especially when it comes to finance or stewardship stuff or building stuff because he was going to lead the way financially in that. And so he gave. But he ended up coming to our church and he came to a point where he realized he’s just been playing on the surface like he didn’t really know Jesus. He didn’t have a love for Jesus, a relationship with Jesus, for his walk on Jesus. So he came to Christ. I mean, he was baptized after decades in the church. And so literally born again. And everything that flows from that. So he is now one of the most generous people I know who is serving in all kinds of different ways. And he and his wife are both. I mean, they’re making disciples in their life. They’re making disciples through their giving. And I mean, they’re like, there’s nothing better than this. Their only regret is they didn’t realize this decade sooner. And so I just have seen that right now. I’m thinking another couple in our church family, like they were just living the dream, doing all kinds of vacations everywhere. And then God got a hold of their hearts. They had that kind of moment and they began to realize, OK, there’s something more important to live for. And now, originally from Ethiopia, the way they’re living for the spread of the gospel in the Horn of Africa right now is so awesome. And I was doing an interview with him the other day and just the fruit of their life. I could tell you all kinds of stories, but I said, Do you miss you, miss your former life? And and she said, no way. Like, there is nothing greater than what we’re doing around like we have so much. There’s a deeper, greater joy and this is the life God’s given us the opportunity to live. So anyway, that’s a little riff on what you just said there. It’s angular.

Daryl Heald: It’s a great riff. It’s a great honor. And you know, we think about that when you ask them, Hey, do you miss that other life? You know, I go to, you know, first Timothy, six, 19, you know, he said this lane of treasure in heaven for the company so that you can take hold of life, that is truly life, right? In one sense, we’re we’re being sold this simple thing, right? And that’s why it is in our joy when we make that trade, when we understand that investment in internal context. You do it all day long and you do it every day, right? And then of course, you don’t want that. So, David, I love how you riffed on that. So specifically, you know, you and your family. What are y’all investing in? What are you excited about as you’ve got a huge exposure out? There are lots of opportunities and all. But what are some? What are you like your top three things? All are really. You know, you just feel like God’s given you something to just go deeper in from the kingdom investments that y’all are financially giving to.

David Platt: Sure. As kind of a lead into that, I would just mentioned, even on a personal level, the Lord’s done this and we keep using the term like born again kind of moment certainly did this in my own heart, just to go back to complete the circle. When Henry, you mentioned pastor in this large church, in a young age down in Birmingham, and just immediately I was thrust into the megachurch world and I was living the dream church world version of the dream. And after a year or two and that started, I think I’m missing the point like I. I’m living it up in this world in a way that I wasn’t before I was in this megachurch. And I think I’m missing it. And so we started to make some changes in our lives and just downsizing some different things from where we were. And it was interesting. So I wrote a book during that time, not radical. That was just the overflow of those convictions. But then radical. That book ended up making a lot of money. Like a lot of people, which I didn’t like, I thought maybe my mom and tip of the church would buy this. And thankfully, God, by his grace, protected me. I hope I would have still said this, but at the time I was thinking, No, I was going to read this. And so I put in the front. All the royalties from this book will go toward the spread of God’s story among the nations. Well, thankfully, God, again, I would like to have thought out to put that in there if I knew a million people had read it, but it sure helped. I couldn’t touch all those resources, and so now I found myself with more money to give away than I had imagined. And so to now all that to say God did a work in my art. Yeah, this is not just for entrepreneurs or the successful business for pastors. It’s for everybody. Every follower of Jesus, we’ve got to ask with what we’ve been given. And so, yeah, so how my wife and I, how our family are. We steward the resources God has given us. I’m really jealous after spending years, not just as a pastor, but even leading a missions organization and kind of in the broader missions world we’ve kind of honed in. I want to be a part of supporting the spread of the gospel on the front lines of what I kind of put in my mind and often talk about as the most urgent spiritual and physical needs in the world and so urgent spiritual needs. I want to be a part of getting the gospel to where the the gospel is not yet gone. The fact that three billion plus people have little to no knowledge of the gospel right now that is not tolerable. And I just this is actually the subject of our secret church recently what we call the great imbalance, because the reality is you look at the stats. Around ninety nine percent of emissions resources from the church actually go to places in the world where the gospel is already gone and that you could argue maybe that’s a little bit a percentage point here or there are different, but like the fact that very little of our resources are going to places where the gospel is not yet gone. I want to be a part of changing that. And so most urgent spiritual need and physical needs, so where those collide, where there’s extreme poverty or extreme trafficking or whatever it might be alongside, they’ve never even heard the name of Jesus like, I want to be there and I want to be a part of work there where the gospel is being clearly proclaimed, where the church is being built, according to the Bible. So these are the filters that I’m thinking through and that I want to help other people get out. So that actually led all that long story to say let us as radical as a ministry to start something called urgent, which is where we are identifying indigenous brothers and sisters on the front lines of urgent spiritual and physical need, and saying What are wise ways that we can give to be a part of the spread of the gospel in those places? And that’s what we’re doing.

Daryl Heald: One quick question, though so is that something that other people can participate in, like if they were fired up about what you just talked about and want to co-invest with you? Is that is that something that’s open or is that?

David Platt: Yes, it’s it’s like it’s a new over the last year, we’ve been kind of long past, even the last few months. So, yeah, I mean, I don’t want to go out this podcast to point people to that. But I I would. I’m asking radical dot net and you go to urgent on that site. And what we’ve done is we’ve tried to create a picture where people could give small amounts or large amounts. That’s all going to go toward the front lines of urgent spiritual and physical need in the world. Indigenous brothers, sisters that we’re vetting to make sure because there is a lot in missions world that I think is unfortunately gospel less, or it’s not focused on building up the church in the ways that the Bible talks about the church. So we’re trying to identify where is the tip of the spear really strong gospel church work amidst urgent spiritual physical need and get behind those brothers and sisters and make connections with them through urgent. So, yeah, radical that being tested?

Henry Kaestner: Thank you. So this is awesome because this is we’re talking about giving here. And yet we’ve got an audience, mostly of entrepreneurs and investors, and I love your focus on going to where the gospel hasn’t gone and where the physical needs are the greatest. Is there something that you might lend as an encouragement to entrepreneurs that have their gifting is in business. It’s an innovation creation, it’s in solving problems, it’s in hiring people, it’s in bringing products and services to market. Do you see a role for the entrepreneur and the investor in investing in the marketplaces of places like that? Or is it just, you know, these are secret places? There’s just too hard. And just really the answer is, you know, we just need your financial resources. Is there something bigger there or am I just artificially controlling that?

David Platt: No, there’s something bigger there, I think. Yes, financial resources part. But. No question in my mind, like radical, we’re actually in the process of putting together. I’m not sure what we would call it, but one of the names we have in years is Innovation Summit, but basically to try to get leaders along these lines in the same room from different domains thinking through how can we? Because yeah, how can we use God’s grace in our lives and professionally the gifts he’s given and the opportunities he’s opened up in a globalized marketplace to be a part of the spread of the gospel in those places and all kinds of different ways? So yes, like I think about these global cities where there are so much opportunity to be part of work there and to do that with the gospel in our hearts and lives of people who are involved in that work. And global cities around the world where unreached people are. And so it’s just I feel like for far too long, we’ve looked at of three billion people who have little to no knowledge of the gospel that doesn’t just need a select group of missionaries who over here who are thinking about how to get the gospel to them that needs the whole body of Christ thinking through how do we use Marshall all of our resources, gifts, experiences, opportunities to be a part of the spread of the gospel in those places, too? Yes. Invest to work, to create business, to do that, and all kinds of different places around the world in ways they’re going to open doors for the seeds of the gospel to spread. Yes. Yes, yes. And so that’s what I’m really passionate about is why we’re want to do this innovation seminar or whatever we call it, because I just think, yeah, the whole body of Christ got to be part of this. And I would say even more so, like traditional missionaries not invited into a lot of these places, but successful entrepreneurs are totally invited. The doors are open there. I’m not going into a lot of these places with my credentials from seminary, but people are listening to this can get into all kinds of places that I can’t get in the world. And so what happens when that whole force is unleashed? In a sense? Yeah, I think about the audience for this. Like, if people who are listening to this right now will get that the global purpose of God is spread of his gospel and glory among the nations is not a compartmentalized program in the church for a couple of people who are like, called it that. But it’s actually the purpose for which we have breath and the reason why we have been given these gifts. That’s what I want to be a part of fueling. Like Lord, use me to pour gasoline on that kind of movement.

Henry Kaestner: That’s awesome. All right, now, I’m all fired up, so I actually now am coming back to the first comment that you mentioned about 20 minutes ago or so that I didn’t latch on to then. But now I really am going back to some of those 60 people that are sitting there for eight to 12 hours and wondering how many of them are business owners. They leave that event you’ve done and they’re out there and they’re running a business. They’re hiring people, they’re living on partners, vendors, customers, employees, and they’ve just been completely immersed into the word of God. You know, as an investor, you spend a lot of time and diligence, you know, the reason why we do what we do a Faith Driven Investor thing is we believe that when we can find the right men and women of peace, you come alongside them and you let them do what they do best in the markets. They know where the customers they know best. And I wonder what it looks like in some of those places to just be able to be an encouragement to that. Maybe it’s 15 of the 60 are business owners. Maybe it’s only eight. What do we know about them? We know that they have a incredible thirst for the gospel. They didn’t come expecting and looking for investment capital. They’re not Christians, right? They’re looking for God’s word. Oh my goodness. How do we come alongside those men and women and just resource them to do what God’s put them in a position to do?

David Platt: I love it. I’m thinking right now about one of the countries we’re working through. Urgent where? Yeah, I mean, just a very close country by all accounts that we might think of. But the indigenous brother we’re working with there runs a factory, and he’s been very successful in a country where it’s really, really hard to be successful. And he’s using that to fuel a basically an underground house church movement. And so to come alongside that brother and not just with financial resources, but again with skills, even partnership, all the kind of things that they’re going through your mind right now that I don’t even know to think of because I’m just like a pastor and I know this or that biblically theologically, but just like a pastor. Well, but I mean, that’s the beauty, though, right of the body of Christ. Like, you guys have gifts I don’t have. I mean, I think about people listening to this right now and the storehouse of grace that they have in their minds and experiences and education that I definitely don’t have, like every one of us playing different parts, but all focused on the same goal and using the grace God’s given us toward that end. Yes, this is what we’re suppose. This is a church is what we get to be a part of in this world. It’s going to matter forever. Like, yes, again, like, sign up for this.

Daryl Heald: Yeah, David, it’s a really love. I mean, I think hopefully everyone listening here that is thinking, you know, so OK, I get it. Maybe the only thing is just seems sometimes sometimes the whole generosity thing seems one dimensional. I’ve got money and there’s a need there and I’m giving it and what I’m just hearing here that Henry and David y’all are talking about is generosity is holistic. In one sense, like, I’ve got networks, I’ve got experience, I’ve got knowledge, I’ve got, you know, capital. I mean, all these other things that, yeah, so I might not be the, you know, call to be there long term, but there are ways that I can be really strategic in this, and I think I’m really fascinated with your innovation summit idea that really brings the whole body to this thing because you think about a problem to be solved with three billion people, you’re right. It’s going to take marshaling everything we have. And so to bring that together instead of the bifurcation of it, we’re in business to make a lot of money and we give it to the church and expect the church to do that. I think we need to see this no bifurcation right altogether is like, Hey, this is our problem to be solved, right? This is what in our time today, given everything we have well done, good and faithful right, we need to the intentionality.

David Platt: So I love the way you just put that there. I would just say if I could put an exclamation on that phrase, is this our problem to be solved? Because I remember talking with one prominent pastor definitely won’t mention his name, but who just we were talking about? Three billion people know where the gospel is. Like, when is somebody else going to figure out how to get the gospel to them? And it was like, when is the mission community going to figure that out and solve that problem? It’s like. Rather, this is a bizarre problem in Salt Lake, as pastors, we’re supposed to shepherd the church toward this end. But to your point there? Yeah. This is our problem like a church. This is for us to have the gospel again going back to where we started, like even my own story, at least even Henry, you’re talking about how you came to Christ, like the fact that we have security for eternity. We have the gospel of Jesus Christ inside of us, like we have eternal life with him, like life that is truly life. To use your words derived from first, some of these sex like we have this right now and we get to be a part of sharing it in the world. And there’s three billion people who’ve never even heard they don’t even have access to the good news of how to have this life like that can’t be. And we have in an esther like way for such a time as this, we have more opportunity with the ease of travel, with technology, with wealth, with the globalization of the marketplace more opportunity than ever before in history. To make this good news, no one in the world like, let’s step fully into this. All of us step fully into this. Why would we want to live for anything else to get a little bit of time here? Let’s make it count toward the end and end the process. Realize, like we’ve talked about, it’s not sacrifice. This is joy. This is pure joy. Seeing people, I just read a story of somebody coming to Christ in a unreached part of the world like to have the opportunity be a part of that. This is awesome. And to have the opportunity to be a part of making the glory of Christ known and experiencing a joy that’s deeper than anything this world has. Yeah, may we all like jumped into this with the unique parts each of us has to play toward that end? Amen, Amen, Amen,

Henry Kaestner: Amen and a man. David, we like to close out every one of our podcast episodes with something that our guest is hearing from God’s Word, and it doesn’t necessarily need to be this morning, though it must surely could be. But we believe that this book is alive in the words of Mark Green, who is on our podcast a couple of weeks ago, something that really impacts me. And so is there something that you think that God is speaking to you? That’s really you’re discovering God’s love for you. I knew or his challenge, his encouragement, something I knew

David Platt: immediately that comes my mind. It was a part of my time with the Lord this morning in Psalm, 62. But it’s been a bigger part of our journey over the last year. So Psalm, 62, this morning. It’s not about waiting on God and finding refuge in him. That’s probably the book that’s had the biggest influence on me this last year of a little book called Waiting on God by Andrew Murray. And part of the reason for that theme is I mentioned our adoption journey. We were three days away last January from getting on a plane to go pick up our fifth son from another country when that country shut down due to COVID. So we’ve been in a 15 month waiting process to get to him and just praying every single day that God would make a way for us to go to him. And so but to see the repeated use of that word waiting in God’s word and again, I saw it this morning. And one of the best definitions I’ve come across for waiting on God is resting trust fully in him. So for us, amidst the heartbreak of wanting to get to our son to Rusty trust in God, I’m guessing there’s a variety of other people listening right now or experiencing some sort of waiting in their life, but rest trust fully and have them. It’s the waiting. And what I love about Andrew Murray’s book on Waiting on God is he kind of talks about how this is really the Christian life like we are constantly. We wake up in the morning. We’re waiting on God for the strength, for the wisdom, for the comfort, for the guidance that only he can provide, like the Christian life is a life resting trust fully in God at every moment. And so that’s been the big takeaway in a way that I just think Isaiah, 40, those who wait in the Lord or renew their strength and just know this has been an exhausting year for so many people in so many ways. But how do you renew strength and soar on wings like eagles and run and not be weary and walk and not think you wait? It rests trusting God. That’s the key to a strength that is supernatural and a trust that can get you through days when you don’t understand why certain things are happening.

Henry Kaestner: Great word, David. Thank you very, very much for spending time with us and with our audience of tomorrow’s investors and givers. You’ve challenged me yet again and just given me a renewed sense of being intentional about getting out into the marketplaces where there is real physical need and real spiritual need. And I thank you for that.

David Platt: And this is pure joy. I really am thankful for God’s grace and you guys and what he’s doing. Even through the people who are listening to this podcast and the fact that I get to be a part of a conversation like this with you guys like I deserve to be in hell right now and here I am talking with you guys about joy and following Jesus and being part of what he’s doing the world. So thank you guys all that to say pure joy, to be a part of this.

Since founding Kingdom Driven Entrepreneurs in 2012, Shae Bynes has reached over a half-million aspiring and current entrepreneurs around the globe through her devotionals, books, courses, and podcasts. She has written numerous books including Doing Business God’s Way and Grace Over Grind. She is a self proclaimed fire igniter and is a gifted storyteller. Shae Bynes, joins us today to share her story, discuss what is happening in the faith driven entrepreneur movement, and explain what it means to walk in grace vs. grinding it out 24/7.

Episode Transcript

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Shae Bynes: That’s what I would call working and his rest, having just that active awareness of the presence of God with you as you work, because a lot of times believers will come into business and say, Oh, I’m doing this business for God, I’m doing this for the glory of God. I’m on a mission. I’m going to I’m going to do this kingdom business and we’re like, Wait, wait, wait, that’s nice. But what we really want you to do is experience is best by doing business with God, which will also reveal his glory, which will also be for him, right? It is for the glory of God. But doing that with God. That’s the difference maker, because you can certainly grind it out, do all kinds of things and be all out of whack doing things. You know, under this banner of this burden of I’m doing this for God and missing his presence in the midst of it.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast, I’m back here with Rusty Rusty Good morning.

Rusty Rueff: Good morning. How are you? How’s your jet lag?

Henry Kaestner: Jet lag is doing fine. You know, in the first day after getting back from a big trip, it’s usually pretty good until about noon and then the wheels start falling off. So it’s still morning here. And I think that I’m doing well. I think that, you know, we’ve got the video going. I think we can both agree that I look great as always, but I don’t look as good as our guest, Shay Bynes, who’s with us from you’re from Florida, right?

Shae Bynes: I am Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

Henry Kaestner: I love Fort Lauderdale, and I know that she is from Fort Lauderdale, Florida, because she has been nice enough to have me on her podcast before. And we talked about that my family used to go to Fort Lauderdale when I was growing up. My great grandmother lived there, and there’s just something about the air and the beach in Port Everglades and the cruise ships going off and all that stuff that Fort Lauderdale just I love it. So it’s great to be kind of virtually transported there. More importantly, it’s great to be with you. I so enjoyed our time together when you were nice enough to have me on the podcast and people ask us a lot about where the different places I can go for more resources. And one of the things we always tell people, of course, is that Faith Driven Entrepreneur is a small, nimble organization that is meant to catalyze and bring attention to a broader movement of what God is doing in the world. And there are some terrific ministries that people can get tied into, and I think about C12 and Ocean and Praxis. I think that convene FCAI overseas, there’s ocean and there’s it’s NEA, there’s blue fields. There’s some really, really great ministries focusing on serving the Faith Driven Entrepreneur. And there’s some great content out there as well. In a podcast out very, very much recommend is KDE Kingdom driven entrepreneur. She has been doing this for a long, long time. She tell us about Katie at How many podcast episodes are you done?

Shae Bynes: I think it’s 300 and something interviews, but a total of four hundred and something episodes because you have some mentoring moments in there.

Henry Kaestner: There’s one for every day. That’s amazing.

Shae Bynes: I think seven years, eight years of podcasting, something like that.

Henry Kaestner: That is awesome, OK? To only be eclipsed by Rusty Rueff blogging prowess. Rusty Where are you with your daily blog?

Rusty Rueff: Three thousand twenty eight today?

Henry Kaestner: Wow. So with Faith Driven Entrepreneur now being only about 180 or so, we’ve got a long ways to go. Shay, thank you for your faith, obedience and the ministry. It’s great to have you on, you know enough about our podcast and know that we like to get started and we just we’d like to meet our guests and love. Everybody now knows, of course, that you’re in Fort Lauderdale. I hope that will be able to have some of the video images from this. You get chief fire igniter behind you and some really, really cool, motivated grace over drawing some really cool things right behind you. But who are you? And yeah, who are you? What would you come from?

Shae Bynes: Well, I’m a daughter of the king. I’m a mother of three daughters, four, 13 and 20. So they’re based

Rusty Rueff: spacing, spacing.

Shae Bynes: Yes, I’m the wife to my husband, Phil. For twenty two years now, we’ve been together since we are six years old. I have been a business owner for many, many years. It started off as the side and my corporate career, but I have been a full time entrepreneur since 2010, after the Lord very not so gently urged me to leave the corporate world behind to to go into business full time. And so it’s been an incredible journey. I’ve been doing kingdom driven entrepreneurs since gosh as 2012, so we will be nine years old in November, and it was the most beautiful God interruption of my life while I was just kind of minding my own business and got interrupted everything and I ended up doing kingdom driven entrepreneur. So that’s that’s a whole nother story. We can get into it or not.

Henry Kaestner: I’m going to right now. I got that interruption.

Shae Bynes: OK, so here’s what happened. So when I was leaving my corporate career at that time, I was in real estate investing, and so my husband, I were investing. We were active real estate investors in the South Florida area. And so when I left my job, I didn’t ask God, like, now, what am I doing? I just assumed I’m just going to go deep into this real estate investing thing, and I was hustling hard. I mean, I was, I call it my season, a faithless action taking at about six months in, I heard the Lord, he said. Are you done yet? And I’m like, Oh, well, yeah, like, why did you even have me leave my job? You know, what am I supposed to be doing here? You know? And that was really my first time of kind of playing my ear to the Lord as it concerns my work life. And so over those next couple of years, I was still continuing real estate, but now with a sensitive ear to hear him as I. Is going along, and in March of 2012, one of my real estate buddies contacted me and said, Hey, I met this woman, and when I met her, I really felt like I was supposed to connect the two of you and I said, great. And so he connects the two of us. We’re on the phone and I’m like, This one is nice, but I have no idea why he was so adamant that we meet. And at the end of that chat, she says, I had this client that I really think you’re supposed to meet. So we hop on the phone and her name is Anthony the. We hit it off right away and I couldn’t deny that we hadn’t met for a very specific reason. And so about six to eight weeks into us getting to know one another as friends, you know, I said to her, I really feel like there’s something specific. There’s a reason why we met. She goes, I’ve been since I’m the same, and I said, Well, let’s pray about it and come back in a week. So we prayed, came back and we talked about some stuff. She was a business owner, too. And I’m like, No, it’s none of that. Let’s pray and come back. We did this three times. So on the third time, she says, the Lord gave me these words. I have no idea what they mean, what they’re for, what it’s about. But I wrote them down and the words are kingdom driven entrepreneur. And when she said those words, what flew out of my mouth before I could even think about it? This was the Holy Spirit. I said, That’s a community. It’s a movement, and it starts with a book. She’s like, Oh, and I’m like, Oh, because it happened so fast out of my mouth. So here we are. Me and this woman, who had just met six to eight weeks prior in a whole nother state are then sitting with the Lord. Like, What is this community and movement that starts with a book called Kingdom Driven Entrepreneur? And by the way, Lord, what is it, kingdom driven entrepreneur? And have we ever been that before? And how are we writing a book about it? It was the craziest, craziest year. And so for the next several months, it was us and the Lord just in this rhythm of just like, this is what it’s like to walk with me. This is what it’s like to walk in obedience to be yielded to me and all of these things. And we wrote this book based off of just what we’d been learning, and we released it for free. And then in it, we invited people to join us in a community that we just started on Facebook. And then a couple of thousand folks showed up and we’re like, OK, Lord, now what? So Kingdom driven entrepreneurs started in 2012 from two essential strangers and who didn’t really know what the phrase meant, even though we were both believers. But those words were very specific, kingdom driven entrepreneur. And so it was just such a wild time, and I and I always share with people. And this was very unusual for me to just be taking these steps. You know, that didn’t make any sense to me. Based off of the leading of the Holy Spirit, I was a computer software engineer. I was a program manager, a program director of highly analytical. I had to make sense and I had to have risk mitigation plan. So all of this Holy Spirit led stuff was so just different for me. But I could not deny God’s presence all over, and so I just kept following the breadcrumbs.

Henry Kaestner: So when when people say to you, what does it mean to be a kingdom driven entrepreneur? How do I get there? How do I figure out whether I’ve achieved it or I’m on the path toward it? But what does it mean to be kingdom driven and what do you say?

Shae Bynes: Yeah. So if we look at each of the words, we’ll leave entrepreneur alone. Essentially, we’re just talking about someone who’s creating something, doing a business. So we’ll leave that alone, but driven. When you think about that word, it has these two definitions that I focus in on. One of those is motivated, like what’s motivating you? And then the other one is propel. So what’s propelling you forward? So when we say a kingdom driven entrepreneur, we’re saying that your entrepreneurial endeavors, they are motivated by seeing an increase of the Kingdom of God on Earth, and they are propelled forward by seeking first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness, knowing that all things will be added.

Henry Kaestner: OK, to hit that again, that’s important. So one was propel. Yes. And what was the other one?

Shae Bynes: The other one was motivated murder. What’s driving you? What’s motivating you and then what’s propelling you

Henry Kaestner: forward like that? I like the propelling part. You know, I spent a little bit of time thinking about the driven part, too, because we’re Faith Driven Entrepreneur and I want to get away from any type of connotation where it’s just limited to, well, like you drive a team of oxen or something like that, right? And there’s this kind of yoke that becomes heavier. But I like what you’ve really just described right there with this propelled. And so that’s really key. So thank you for that.

Shae Bynes: Absolutely, absolutely. And so in essence, what we’re talking about is doing business and partnership with God, you know, let an empowered by the Holy Spirit so experiences best and have a greater kingdom impact through the work that we do. So that’s pretty much what we’re about.

Henry Kaestner: Gotcha. Good. OK. So as you go through and you’ve been doing this for a long time, obviously, what are some of the challenges you see entrepreneurs and business leaders facing today?

Shae Bynes: Yeah. Well, when people show up to kingdom driven entrepreneur, it’s often because they were compelled by the idea of doing business in partnership with God. It was almost like, that sounds about right, like what I should be doing as a believer in Jesus, but I don’t really know what that looks like. And so what we find as. One of the most significant challenges, as we’ve been mentoring folks for years now, is people building their confidence that they do hear from God. Period. You would think that that would be an obvious thing, but it’s not. And so for many people, they’re just like, Hey, well, you know, have a prayer life. And yes, I read the scriptures and all of those things. But the idea of the Lord being so interested in the details of their business life, their professional life, all of those things for a lot of people, the beginning struggle for them is building that confidence that he actually cares a lot about this business. And he actually speaks to me. He is. There’s actually a source of a blueprint in my business. There’s a source of provision for my business. There’s a source of divine insight and a vision. All of these things that can come just in that secret place with the Lord. And so that’s something that we find that takes a bit of time for people, depending on what their upbringing was and the faith. There’s some and more untangling to do with some people than others, but I do find that people do struggle with that a little bit with that idea. They like the idea. But then when it comes to walking it on a practicality, they end up doing what I call a lot of grinding in their head about it. Yeah, the mind grind.

Henry Kaestner: So I think that’s really, really important. And that guy gets really actively involved. And I think that a barometer. I’m wondering if you’d agree with this, I guess, is I’m about to talking about prayer. Being so important is probably hard to disagree about prayer. But what I’ve found is that when I can really tap into that truth that you just laid out that can actually really does care about the business, it’s a blueprint or framework. He cares about the interactions that I have and that I actually have an opportunity to check in with him then regularly through the day. And if I’m in a season where I’m praying a lot and not necessarily always this deep, deep, deep prayers, but Lord, help me understand this. Or Lord, please forgive me for that. Lord, thank you for that. Then I’m more conscious of the fact that he actually does care about the business. Do you find the same?

Shae Bynes: Absolutely. I mean, that’s what I would call working and his rest having just that active awareness of the presence of God with you as you work, because a lot of times believers will come into business and say, Oh, I’m doing this business for God, I’m doing this for the glory of God. I’m on a mission. I’m going to I’m going to do this kingdom business and we’re like, Wait, wait, wait, that’s nice. But what we really want you to do is experience is best by doing business with God, which will also reveal his glory, which will also be for him. Right. It is for the glory of God. But doing that with God. That’s the difference maker, because you can certainly grind it out, do all kinds of things and be all out of whack doing things. You know, under this banner of this burden of I’m doing this for God and missing his presence in the midst of it.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, I find it fascinating. Shay, we recently had a guest on the podcast who says that if you walk close enough with God and you listen close enough to God, God will tell you, you know, the things that you should or shouldn’t do in your business. But the most interesting thing that he said after that was, and it’s my responsibility to listen to what God is telling me. And then it’s my responsibility to accept that and understand that, you know, I might go out and ask a bunch of advisors. I may ask my pastor, you know, is God saying the right things to me? And but it’s really my responsibility. He’s talking to me. It’s a personal relationship. And therefore I may make a different decision in my business than somebody else would think I should. But you know, God wouldn’t talk to them. He’s talking to me.

Shae Bynes: Yes. That’s it. It’s, you know, God is the source. Everyone. Everything else is a resource. I mean, I find myself saying that to people every single week. It’s just like and part and in business that can be very hard for people if they’re led by experts or, you know, led by opportunity or led by the money or led by whatever, but not led by the Holy Spirit. You can just find yourself in these places where you’re capturing blueprints from other people that really aren’t there. It’s not the design for what God’s placed on your heart, you know? And so that’s why it’s so important to do this thing with God.

Henry Kaestner: God is the source. We are just a resource.

Shae Bynes: Everyone and everything else is a resource. Everything and everyone.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, yeah. That’s a really, really good. So that’s the communication with God’s side. What are some of the other challenges of being in, you know, in business partnership with God?

Shae Bynes: Yeah. So in kingdom driven entrepreneur, we’re focusing on, you know, doing business with the presence of the King of Kings, with the mindset of the King of Kings and in the ways of the King of Kings. And when it comes to that mindset and ways of the King of Kings, I find another challenge is just the unlearning of certain worldly things that create success for business owners. But yet? Are not aligned with the kingdom, weigh the ways of our king. And so there’s a tension in that because, you know, there’s a lot of people who when they learned business, they learned how to do it X, Y and Z, and then they show up and they’re like, Oh, wait, this doesn’t even really quite feel right. And I’m especially talking about things and marketing just the operations of business and marketing and sales and all of those things. And then they’re having to unlearn so many things that they tie to success because what they saw was someone else experiencing success. And so getting people to one, be willing to go through that unlearning and to redefine success as faith plus their obedience equaling your success. You know, when you make that shift, then you can realize as long as I’m operating in faith in God, as I’m moving forward, as long as I’m operating and responsive and obedient to what he’s speaking to me, whether it’s in the scripture or just spoke by the spirit, whatever that is, I’m already a success. All the other things are fruit and manifestations of that as you walk it out. But getting people to get that from here to here is a process. It really is.

Rusty Rueff: So what do you see going on in the bigger movement? I mean, we just got done having our Faith Driven Entrepreneur conference and Faith Driven Investor conference and how many watch parties Henry

Henry Kaestner: 294 in 53 countries. But who’s counting?

Shae Bynes: Amazing, you guys.

Henry Kaestner: Amazing Asians on the move chair. You’ve seen an uptick too. I mean, you get any sense that they’re God’s doing something.

Shae Bynes: Yes, I have been feeling that way since kingdom driven entrepreneurs started. And over the past three years, an increasing measure. As you watch the dynamics of what has happened and kind of globally, this idea of the marketplace and how we show up as believers in the marketplace is and also our ability to seek the wisdom of heaven versus the wisdom of the world for our ability to operate out of heaven’s economy and kingdom economy versus the world’s economy. All of these things are becoming increasingly important. Our ability to collaborate with one another is becoming increasingly important, right? And so for me, I just sense that as we continue over these next five years, 10 years, 15 years, that things that we thought were kind of a nice that sounds nice 10 years ago were saying, No, this is an imperative right now.

Rusty Rueff: I feel that I absolutely feel that. I mean, if you if you cast that against the things that are going on in the world, right? And you go, how how could we make it through right if not growing this movement, you know, making sure that, you know, the kingdom driven entrepreneur of the kingdom, you know, the Faith Driven Entrepreneur. However, anybody wants to define it are being supported and equipped to make it through this time because we’re in, you know, I guess every generation province says this, you know, we’re in it. We’re at a time like no other. So so we’re not the first ones to say it. But, you know, I certainly feel the burden to equip absolutely to help, you know.

Shae Bynes: And the thing is, there’s a desire for kingdom solutions. There’s a need for kingdom solutions. And so if we don’t have people in the marketplace who are doing business with God right, then we miss out on these opportunities to bring solutions to real challenges that are not just we’re not trying to talk about, you know, creating a Christian club, but like really having an impact on cities, having an impact on industries, all of those things for the glory of God, you know? And so it’s just increasingly important. It really is.

Henry Kaestner: Share what’s on your T-shirt. There’s a big word stay, yes.

Shae Bynes: What’s under one of my mentees is her shirt. It says, stay sane. I like

Henry Kaestner: that. I like that. You learn so much about what somebody got in this world is so much about what’s in their background. And so one of the things that I see on on your lower right is just this very simple sign. You are loved.

Shae Bynes: Yes.

Henry Kaestner: And I think that that’s easy to kind of just throw away and just like, well, of course of love, you know, it’s a Christian thing and makes me feel good. But you’ve got this book grace over a grind where you kind of really go into what that means. You are love. Yeah, yeah. Tell Rusty, you know, in our audience more about that.

Shae Bynes: What the you are loved part is so key because if we don’t have revelation of the love of God for us, yes for the world, yes for humanity, but for you as an individual, it is very difficult to grow in your trust. And I mean, your complete yielded surrendered trust in him without a revelation of love, because this is perfect love that casts out our fear of being fully yielded and trusting to God. And so one of the things that God did for me, which was such a gift, is just in those months prior to kingdom driven entrepreneur even launching, you know, at the end of 2012, as I just had, I had a series of amazing life-changing encounters with God where he was revealing his love to me. And after that it broke all of my need to know all the details. My need to have the backup plans, the the need for it to make sense. Based off of my experience and my wisdom, it broke that for me. And so I’m a huge, huge advocate. I’m consistently praying for people to have personal encounters with the love of God because it’s that love that breaks a lot of the stuff that goes on in our minds and in our hearts so that we can really walk and experience experiences best. So that aspect of love is. It really is everything it’s and it’s the foundation of really growing an intimacy with God, which is everything.

Rusty Rueff: It is, isn’t it? Yeah. I’m so glad you’re reinforcing that. Take us into this book Grace over grind, Andrew and I’ve been sitting here thinking to ourselves, OK, you know, we know that grind part. You know, we feel that grind part, you know? Tell us about the grace part.

Shae Bynes: Sure. OK, so here’s how this book came up about maybe six months after kingdom driven entrepreneurs started. I mean, I still had some grind in me, OK? I mean, that’s how I grew up in business. So I had that hustle and grime mentality, but now it’s going to be doing it, you know, for Jesus. But about six months in after we started, I was in church and our pastor did a sermon and it was on Matthew Chapter 11, verse 28 through 30. And this is the scripture that most people are familiar with. When Jesus is saying, you know, come to me, all of those who are weary, you’ll fight, you know, I’ll give you rest. And he talks about how his yoke is easy and his burden is light, right? But our pastor read it in the message that particular day and I had never heard it before, and it says, Are you tired, worn out, burnt out on religion? Come to me, get away with me and you will recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me. Work with me. Watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t let anything heavy or ill fitting on. You keep company with me and you will learn to live freely and lightly. Gentlemen.

Henry Kaestner: Eugene Peterson is the man you know, I tell you. He was maybe a modern day John the Baptist. But that is poetry, isn’t it?

Shae Bynes: It resonated so strongly with me, and I now call this the width factor it was. Come with me. Work with me, you know. Walk with me. Watch me. Do it. Keep company with me. That was the invitation there. And so I’m thinking, Oh, wow, like, I’m really I’m really missing something here. What is an unforced rhythm of grace? That sounds amazing? And what is it like to truly do all things with you? So that was the invitation that I was experiencing in my heart, and I just said, Yes, show me all of that. And so the book was birthed out of years of walking that out of doing business with him and then ended up being a book release. But you had asked about this whole idea of grind and grace, and so I define grind as excessive hard work. You know, you’re doing things primarily in your own strength, which is what a lot of people do. And if they don’t do it all the time, they certainly have seasons of time that that’s what they do, or maybe 25 percent or 50 percent of the time that they do that. But when we think about what’s available to us with God’s grace, which is just this empowerment, it’s an empowerment from God to do all you were called to do, to be all you were called to be and to actually experience things that you would never, ever, ever. Be able to experience on your own just because of the favor of God through that alignment with him. And so when I talk about grace, it’s funny because a lot of times people will hear the message and they immediately say, Oh, this is all about working too many hours. Oh, OK, so I work 80 hours a week or I work 60 hours a week. Well, you can grind 10 hours a week. You can work in your own strength 10 hours a week. You can work in your own strength five hours a week. So I’ve been spending this time just like, no, no, no, no. If you’re doing it primarily in your own strength, no matter how many hours you’re doing it, you are not experiencing God’s best, which is doing all things with him, right? And so that’s what’s available to us. And so and the book I talk about, you know, some of the signs of that you’re grinding and what those things look like and people who want to put it in the box of how many hours they work immediately start finding themselves within that.

Rusty Rueff: I think I think you should tell us some of those steps. Yeah, sure, sure. I think our listeners would love to know what those are.

Shae Bynes: Absolutely. So one of them is financial anxiety, which, by the way, you can have whether you have a lot of money or a little money. OK? Financial anxiety is when you’re constantly concerned about the finances. For people who have a lot of finances, they’re thinking, Oh my gosh, I’m one step away from the shoe dropping or Oh my gosh, I have to be cuts. I’m going to bed with anxiety because I just don’t know if we’re going to be in this place for long or what’s going to happen. It’s just this constant concern about the finances, which is also a sign of a lack of revelation of God as provision, but that’s a different podcast episode. So there’s financial anxiety, there’s prayer looseness, and I don’t mean you never pray, but it just may be a routine. You know, I pray because I’m about to eat. I pray because I’m about to go to bed. I pray and thank God because I woke up this morning, but not that intentional communication with God throughout the day, inviting him into your spaces of life, including your work life, and also that willingness to be still enough to hear him as he will interrupt your day. Right? So just that communication with God. So prayer. Listen, this is another sign, the sign that people, if they haven’t heard it yet, they find it now is what I call the mind grind. And that’s where you have over analysis. You have analysis paralysis. You end up procrastinating because you’re constantly churning in your head. For those who have decided to do business with God, their churn often looks like, I don’t know, was it God? Was this me? Was it the pizza I ate last night? Is this really what God desires for me to do and just stay stagnated out of that place because they’re not experiencing the freedom that they have in Christ to go and create? And by the way, to be course corrected if you go in the wrong direction, right? Which is the benefit of doing it with him in his rest, right? So those are some of the signs people who say things like, Hey, if it’s going to be, it’s up to me. They take a burden that actually doesn’t belong to them. It’s about operating in diligence, but it’s not about taking on this burden as if, Oh, it all depends on me and people who have backgrounds with people where maybe someone said that they weren’t going to amount to anything or someone who doesn’t believe in their dream or someone who was, you know, said something rude to them when they were 10 or whatever. Sometimes there’s these things in their heart that they carry out later that then you feel like I have something to prove. So now I’m doing this because I’m going to show such and such. So now I’ve carried on this burden, I’m going to do this in my own strength because I need to prove something to either myself or to somebody else, right? So those those are just some of the ways, but there’s so many ways that we end up operating primarily in our own strength. And that’s just not God’s best, and it’s not the way that we really begin to reveal his glory. If you grind it out in your own strength, you know at the end of the day and say to God, be the glory. Nobody believes you. It’s like, Well, yeah, if I did all of that right? But it’s like, No, when you are actually doing this thing with God, you will experience so much favor and supernatural productivity and all these things that you can only say. Well, I got a God story on that. And that really reveals his goodness. And it also helps us to access the heavenly solutions that are available to us and not just the solutions based off of our own wisdom and experiences, but really, you know, leaning into the voice of the Lord on things too. I got so many ridiculous testimonies of that. It’s not even funny.

Henry Kaestner: I believe it. I believe it. And I think that not only can we, if we tap into him, can we get his design, his blueprint, but then we can also get this sense of joy and gratitude. And when we really realize the depths of his love for us and what this grace really means, then we can just we’re happy. We’re joyful, we’re grateful. And then it’s almost like a nuclear source of energy, right? And then what ends up happening? Is she any time you spend any time with you, it’s it’s you’ve got this attractiveness to you that’s coming about because you really. Have received this grace, you know, there’s a joy in your heart because you understand that you’re the daughter of the most high. And then, as it turns out, what ends up? Not only do you have his ideas, but then you’ve got this energy that doesn’t flag because the other sources are trying to show somebody else or, you know, doing things out are your own shape. It’s just fatiguing, right? But it is. You’ve got this. If you’re part by joy and gratitude, you’ve got you’ve got something right?

Shae Bynes: That’s right. And that’s actually one of them. One of the signs of the grind. No joy. No peace. That’s one of them, right? Because sometimes people are like, Oh, you’re saying everything’s going to be easy? No, I’m saying that even when it’s inevitably challenging because it will. You know, and I’ve got plenty of those testimonies, too. I can still move through those challenges with God and with joy and with peace despite circumstances. And if we’re not doing that, it doesn’t mean that we’re not as kids, we’re still as kids, but it means that we’re not operating in him right with him. And so that’s the difference maker.

Rusty Rueff: So I’m going to ask the question of the skeptic who’s probably listening and going, Wow, that sounds great. That’s exactly what I want to get to. But right now, it’s, you know, I’ve got to hustle, I’ve got to grind it out. I’m the only one that can get this done. I’m the leader, I’ve got investors, I’ve got a board. I’ve got to beat the competition. If I can only grind it out a little longer, a lot longer, I’m sure I can get to where she’s telling me to get to. But right now, right now, what is what do you say?

Shae Bynes: I’d first say you can’t grind your way to grace. Number one. So there’s already something in your mindset that makes you believe that you have to do this on your own. I’m telling you that if the thought is that if I just do more of this, then I can experience this, that that’s not his best for you. His best for you is to take a moment to step back and to seek his heart concerning what you’re doing. What are your thoughts concerning this, Lord? These are my plans. Here’s what I’m thinking. What are your thoughts? What’s your heart concerning these people? I’m serving through business. What are your heart concerning? You know the people in this company? What’s your heart concerning the investors who are showing up and supporting taking that step back and aligning your thoughts with his, your heart and your thoughts with his is everything. And so I would say you will experience that much more when you get in alignment with him rather than trying to do it all in your own strength to then later say, OK, now that I’ve done it, now that I’ve done it, you know all of my own strength. Lord, what do you have to say about that? I promise you, it’s an invitation from me. You don’t have to take it. But if you take that invitation, you will be so glad that you did and you will not want to do business any other way. Those are the facts.

Rusty Rueff: That’s a challenge. That is a good challenge, right?

Shae Bynes: It’s the best challenge.

Rusty Rueff: Is there any other challenge or call to action you’d like to give our listeners because you’ve got them right now?

Shae Bynes: Yeah, sure. So a call to action for someone who might be that skeptic or maybe isn’t a skeptic, but is like, OK, well, what is this really practical look like? I’ll give one step one first action step that you can take, and that’s what I call a daily business meetings with God. And so if you’ve never really engaged God in a practical way with your business, one way you can do it as a starting point is just as opposed to looking at your personal devotional time as, Hey, I read the scripture, you know, hey, I I prayed this prayer. I sang this one worship song even include like your to do list surrender your to do list. Actually have a conversation with the Lord concerning your plans for the week, your plans for the day, that important meeting that you had coming up and ask God for his thoughts. Ask God to give you his heart concerning those things. And even if you feel like I’m not sure that I really heard him, I’m not sure that this is him. I could be making all this stuff up. I want you to operate as if if it doesn’t go counter to the word of God, I want you to operate as if, because that’s part of the faith walk. But the Bible says that my sheep hear my voice, which means he does speak to you and you have the ability to hear and to walk that out. So that’s when I want to challenge anyone who’s just like, wondering, Well, what’s my first step on that? I would challenge them with that as the first step.

Rusty Rueff: I love this. I love this daily business meeting with God, Henry, you don’t have to do it on Zoom. Know how to do that on my own.

Shae Bynes: No, you and your office, you taking a walk, whatever you know. But to just really do it

Henry Kaestner: right before we go to Rusty daily blog. So I’m fascinated by this. I would like you free you to make. It gives a real example if you can. You may have listened to a podcast before and understand that at the end, we always ask somebody. And this is what William will ask and Williams out today. But when we ask somebody what they’re hearing from God recently through his word, so I’m going to combine that question with what you’re hearing from God in your daily business meetings recently. And maybe it’s day, maybe it’s a couple of weeks ago and you’re thinking about. Your business, are you thinking about the ministry? What’s something that you’ve heard from God because you’ve gone to him?

Shae Bynes: Yes, recently. Yeah, so, so many things. But the first thing that popped in my head is so I’m in the midst of a little bit of a transition. My husband became CEO of Kingdom Driven LLC last November. That’s a whole nother God story. And so when he became CEO, I knew it was because the Lord was opening up some new things for me to take Kingdom solutions and some other areas outside of entrepreneurship. And so I’ve been kind of doing that wrestling with the Lord in terms of how to walk that out, because what he’s shown me from a vision perspective is way outside of my experience, way outside of what I could even create an action plan for. And so one of the things that I heard from the Lord as I was just really seeking his heart concerning how do I steward what you’ve shown me now, even though I just it just doesn’t make sense. I don’t, I don’t know how to do it. He said to me, Right now, I want you to connect the dots and connect the people. And so when I heard that it was cool because that made sense because I noticed that he was sending people my way, I was having a conversation with people about topics I normally wouldn’t have. And then I was realizing, I’m not having conversations with people that this person really needs to know this person and that person really needs to know that person. And so God’s been doing is, as I’ve been researching things like an economics and a government and all kinds of things that guys got me up into now that were beyond my, you know, thoughts as I’m doing that, he’s connecting all the pieces together. And so he just gave me that one assignments want to have to create a whole action plan, a blueprint, a 10 year strategy around it. I just need to walk this thing out, Stewart at step by step and it starts with me with connecting the dots and connecting the people. So that’s a really practical thing that he gave me to do.

Henry Kaestner: So what does that look like then for you, how you do that?

Shae Bynes: So it literally means when there’s been books that I needed to read on particular topics, I’m asking him, OK, I said before I buy the books, which ones do you want me to read? I’m reading those books, and as I’m reading those books and as he think connecting people to me, I’m saying, OK, Lord, what is what’s the purpose of this meeting? What’s your heart concerning this meeting? And I’ve been literally connecting people and connecting the dots between things that they’re sharing, things that I’m reading and putting those things together. Because at this point, for that aspect of an assignment that is coming, that’s how I steward that right now on the kingdom driven entrepreneur side. Earlier this year, I got an instruction which was, This is a season for you to invest. Well, I didn’t want to assume, OK, well, this means I need to invest in X, Y and Z. I was like, I have more questions. Invest in what? Invest in whom I went and looked up the word invest to go. Look at all the definitions of the word invest. It was like, OK, Lord, what aspect of this invest? Are you speaking to me about? And I ended up with like a little list of things I needed to do to invest in myself, things I needed to do to invest in the business that were not things that we had invested in before, right? There were things that we need to invest in and other people. And I just had this list of what this looks like to invest. And I didn’t operate out of assumption. I asked and I sat with him and I worked through that thing, and then I would take steps for those things. And we are seeing the fruit already of that instruction that I got in April to make the investments that he put on our heart to invest in.

Henry Kaestner: Talk a little bit about investing, if you can. You may know that we have a ministry called Faith Driven Investor. We’ve got a blog and we have podcast and a conference, but riff a little bit more about that, about the investment concept. And maybe even I shouldn’t limit it by any stretch to financial investment. But just tell us a little bit more about a mindset that we might share with our Faith Driven Investor audience.

Shae Bynes: Yeah, sure. So when I was my immediate thought, which is, I said, an operating assumption, when I think invest, I was really I’m a real estate investor, so I immediately think invest financially in something, right? So that’s why I didn’t want to operate just off of that assumption. But it ended up being invest in several different ways, investing financially and some areas of our business. There were areas to financially invest in, and we did. There was areas to invest time in. There were things that I needed to make sure I allocated and blocked aspects of time on my calendar to intentionally invest time in either researching something which was the case for me. There were things I need to research. I need to invest time in doing because it was a season for now. There was things I need to invest in in my family life. There were things I need to invest in with my kids. This last three months has been an intensely family focused investment for me, right? So there was all these areas, so I didn’t put the word invest in a box, and I allowed him to unpack that for me so that I can see where it was investing in things that were related to my mindset, investing in things that were related to relationships, investing in things that required a financial investment that maybe ordinarily I wouldn’t have made at this time. But because I’m doing this by the leading Holy Spirit, I’m going to trust God and go, right.

Henry Kaestner: So I want you to know that I’m hearing you when you’re talking about this broader sense of investing, I think it’s very important for every investor to know that. And yet I still find myself. I want to. Bring you back to the real estate part. Yes. So you’re clearly driven by your faith. What is what is real estate investing look like from your faith perspective in your daily meetings with God? How does your faith manifests itself out through that investment? Yeah.

Shae Bynes: Well, for one, we’re not active real estate investors right now, but I know that we were going to be engaging in real estate investing again in the future. And one of the things that Laura really put on our heart as it relates to real estate is how we do it, which would be different than the way we did it before I ever did business with him. Right? So in the past, I would look at a deal and just based off of whatever information I can gather and the wisdom I have about a good deal. It’s like, Go do the deal going back into it now, I’m not basing it just off of that information. I want to actually see God about investments as well, because quite honestly, just because something is good on paper doesn’t mean it’s good for right now or good for us because he sees a larger picture. So now when we go back into real estate investing, which will probably be on the commercial side when we come back, we were all residential before. But we’re going to be operating in a new area. And so I will be leaning into, yes, my peers who are really great with commercial investing and yes, the books and yes, the experience that I have from investing. But I will also be leaning into the voice of the Lord as it relates to making decisions about some of these investments, right? So I really want to align myself with him and make sure that we’re building, you know, according to God’s best for what we’re focused in on right now.

Henry Kaestner: So when you do real estate investing, whether you’re doing it with apartments in residential or whether you’re doing with commercial, you’re dealing with a lot of people. Do you get a sense about how what’s the opportunity for spiritual integration or gospel proclamation through the actual the interaction? And don’t let me be prescriptive or presumptuous, although it sounds that quite like the question is a bit. But what does that look like now as you’re coming out of this period where you’ve been completely focused on kingdom driven entrepreneur getting back into that when the rubber meets the road? Are there opportunities for that?

Shae Bynes: Well, I think that God often presents opportunities. My mindset is that I don’t go in with an agenda of my own. So in all my engagements with people, I want the Kings agenda first. And so that means I want to be sensitive to the the Holy Spirit when I’m having conversations with people. So if there is a door open that allows me to be an encouragement to them or share something that I really sense my spirit concerning them or whatever. I’m going to go for it because God presented that opportunity. But the key is that I don’t have an agenda. I’m agenda less. It’s really just whatever the king’s agenda is here. That’s what I want. So I’ll pray before the meeting. We go in there and that’s just how I operate. I mean, and kingdom driven entrepreneur, everyone’s a believer, but I still operate that way. Then, you know, and whether I’m in the marketplace, encountering people who are believers aren’t believers, whatever. Same thing, honestly.

Rusty Rueff: That’s that’s if I could personally get to that, that would be such a wonderful place to be right to be a genderless, you know, and just to let God take over the agenda. That’s an encouraging word you say,

Henry Kaestner: because otherwise it, you know, sometimes I’ve got a good friend of mine and talks about, I’ll ask him, How are you doing? He’s like, Well, you know, I’m selling something to somebody, and he’s a great loving man. So he’s not always selling something to somebody. But nonetheless, most of my meetings, I’m selling that idea. I’m trying to recruit them into something. I’m trying to encourage them to maybe lead a Faith Driven Entrepreneur ERG group, you know, fill in the blanks of the different things that I have. I have agendas in many, if not most, if not all, of my meetings. And that’s a radical thought process.

Shae Bynes: Yes, so agenda. So some people also, OK, I’ll talk words right if I have a meeting and I know there’s certain things that are to be accomplished in that meeting, one could say that’s an agenda. I’ll have that agenda. So I have there’s a reason why we’re meeting and there’s something to accomplish during that meeting. But when I say that I don’t have an agenda, it means that I am allowing God to be the god of outcomes of that meeting period, whatever that looks like. So yes, I’m showing up with the intention of having a conversation about whatever the thing is at hand or whatever. But as it relates to the outcomes of that meeting, I really do allow God to be the guy to the outcome of that meeting and a yielded agenda looks like I thought we were going to talk about one, two and three. But in the midst of conversation about two, it looks like we need to have a conversation. We need to veer over here and we’re never going to get to three. And I’m OK with that because why God is provision? We’re just having a conversation here, right? And so that’s how I just got a really practical way. Show up in my conversations with people is even with this interview, when I had a conversation prior to this, I was like, Listen, whatever God wants to do in the interview, I don’t need a list of questions. I don’t need any of that. I’m just going to show up whatever God wants to do in that conversation. That’s what we’re doing. I have no agenda. You don’t have to share about a particular book. You know, if it comes up, it comes up. It’s like, I just want to do whatever is on God’s heart concerning a situation. And so that’s just the way I roll, and I have been very, very pleased with the adventure. I call it the wild and crazy and amazing adventure with God that I’ve been experiencing as I yield myself in that way. We love,

Rusty Rueff: we love the way you roll. I got to tell you, I’ve gotten more out of today’s podcast now that I have, you know, from so many others. And look, this idea of daily business meeting with God is such a powerful concept because I’m sitting here thinking to myself, how could I claim to be in partnership with someone who I don’t meet with daily? How can I ever do that, right? I mean, that’s because, you know what? In the real world, you know, not in the spiritual world. What would happen is your partner would go, you’re not a partner of mine because you don’t meet with me and I don’t want to be your partner. But you know, because of God’s grace. Yeah, let’s just skip those right there to skip those, but come back to him and ultimately come back in partnership with him. But that this could be a life changing thing for me, and I hope for our listeners, to my daily business meeting with God.

Shae Bynes: Thank you. That’s right. And Rusty, if you don’t mind me sharing this, it’s like in the beginning, that’s your step one is just really getting in this rhythm of being diligent about having business meetings with God. But what happens is as you grow in intimacy with God, what ends up happening is now you’ll move from having a intentional daily business meeting with God to I just flow with God throughout my day and all the things that I do. It becomes just this kind of flowing engagement with the Lord throughout the day, right? But it does begin with yielding yourself and your business to him in a really intentional way. And the other tip I’ll give for some people who are concerned about like, do what am I hearing his voice or whatever is, try reading the scripture and asking Holy Spirit before you read to bring this word to life for me, talk to me about me in the midst of these words that I’m reading. I mean, an intentional way. Just let to be the intention of your heart. And when you do that, as opposed to reading, because it’s the good Christian thing to do to read that Bible, when you do that, you will encounter God in that way and begin to realize, Oh wow, I do hear him. Oh, wow. Like, he is speaking to me and began to walk that out. So just little, little things that were so instrumental for me, not even growing up in a church where we even talked about. Absolutely. So really, that intimacy with God was I was the process for me.

Rusty Rueff: I started doing that with God’s word a number of years ago, a pastor said, Don’t be afraid to go to God’s word and say, This is what I need, Lord. And he used the example of, you know, he said, Maybe I just need a hug today, God, I just need a hug and then go to his word. And I have more than once asked, You know, boy, I just need a hug today. And every time he shows up, it’s the intentionality of it. Yes, right? It’s is. It is this partnership idea. It’s this partnership idea of sharing back and forth what I need. What can I do for you? How can I help you walk back and forth? That’s what partners do.

Shae Bynes: That’s it. So, so good.

Henry Kaestner: Well, as we come to a close, I’m going to fill in for William on this. I’m going to ask you that question I alluded to before. Is there anything that you’re hearing specifically in God’s word, from scripture that he’s speaking to you about and that you might offer up as an encouragement to others as well?

Shae Bynes: Yeah, I will want to remind everyone around Ephesians three and 20 which God’s talks to me a whole lot about around just this whole thing about now is to him who is able to do exceeding abundantly. Above all, you could ask or imagine, according to the power that works within you. So that helps us remember the yield ourselves to God and also reminds us of the power we have in Christ operating and partnership with the Holy Spirit in our lives. And we yield ourselves in that way. We can experience way more than we ever could have even thought or imagined. And so I just want to encourage people with that today.

Henry Kaestner: That’s a great encouragement. Shay, thank you very, very much. Kingdom driven entrepreneur. Great podcast you go check out the book Grace Over Grind is a great concept to take away and seek to apply. And I think that it goes really hand-in-hand with the mark of a Faith Driven Entrepreneur that that our audience will be really familiar with about willfulness versus faithfulness, but also identity crisis. There’s a lot of things that are wrapped up in that, and but it’s just a great thing. Am I being powered today by grace or am I in the grind? So check out the book and the ministry in the podcast. Thank you very much.

Shae Bynes: Thank you so much. I enjoyed our chat.

This was adapted from Faith Driven Entrepreneur: What It Takes to Step Into Your Purpose and Pursue Your God-Given Call to Create by Henry Kaestner, J. D. Greear, and Chip Ingram. Copyright © 2021. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers, a Division of Tyndale House Ministries. All rights reserved

— by JD Greear

In middle school, Alex and Peter launched their first entrepreneurial enterprise, a little neighborhood project called “Dirt Cheap Lawn Care.”

After their ninth grade summer, they were both over it, but for different reasons.

Alex saw his work as a necessary evil, little more than a means to score some cash to go to the arcade, see the occasional movie, and upgrade his wardrobe from his mom’s unrelenting poor choices. Because work for Alex was merely a means to an end, he got little pleasure from it. He did the least he could to earn a buck. He cut corners. He was always pushing Peter to raise prices and offered little to no perks for loyal customers.

Peter, by contrast, loved the company. He felt more alive in it than he ever had. He loved the praise that came from his parents and satisfied customers, and he loved the status that came from being a high school student with a thriving business and plenty of cash. Peter buried himself in Dirt Cheap, because in its success he saw his success. The work was hard now, but he figured real, lasting happiness was just around the corner, the prize for an extra $1,000 in revenue. As he entered his sophomore year, however, he was dismayed that the girls at school seemed to care more about wavy hair and who scored the most points in the basketball game than about his thriving business. Just a little bit more money, a little bit more success, he thought, and they’ll see.

Alex and Peter continued their business on into their thirties, and then it all fell apart. Alex simply hated being at work and couldn’t believe he had stayed as long as he had. Peter could never round the corner into real happiness. Though he still loved the concept of running a business, he concluded that managing a lawn care business would not deliver the satisfaction and status he craved.

Alex and Peter represent the two key ways we can go wrong with our entrepreneurial work. Alex, you could say, was idle. Peter had made his work an idol.

My guess, based on the fact that you picked up this book, is that you identify more with Peter than with Alex. Many of us entered entrepreneurial work to find a sense of satisfaction, meaning, and significance. Eventually, though, we all realize we can’t find those things there. Unfortunately, for many, by the time they realize it, the damage has been done. Consider these sobering statistics:

Many of us entered entrepreneurial work to find a sense of satisfaction, meaning, and significance. Eventually, though, we all realize we can’t find those things there.

• Entrepreneurs are two times more likely to suffer from depression.

• Entrepreneurs are three times more likely to battle some form of substance abuse.

• Entrepreneurs are two times more likely to have suicidal thoughts.

• Entrepreneurs are two times more likely to be hospitalized for psychiatric problems.

There’s a cost to placing all of our time, energy, and efforts exclusively in one place. Entrepreneurship, even when done in healthy partnership, is still an inherently lonely journey. After all, no matter how much people say they’re “with you,” no one else can take your risks, make your decisions, determine your values, or set your precedents. You’re the one doing all that. That’s a lot of weight on one set of shoulders.

I can’t think of a more fitting book of the Bible to address this struggle than the book of Ecclesiastes. The majority of Ecclesiastes is written by Solomon, a man with incalculable wealth, world renowned wisdom, unmatched power, and a list of accomplishments to put anyone to shame. And yet Solomon explained that even with all that, life often felt like hevel—a Hebrew word that literally means “vapor” or “smoke.” His success felt like a cloud: from afar it might look solid, but when you pressed into it, you would discover it was vapor.

Solomon identifies four areas of life that disappoint us, not in spite of our successes but because of them. Entrepreneurs today need to keep a close eye on each of these four areas, lest our well intended efforts become hevel, an impressive­ looking cloud . . . full of nothing.

1. Pleasure ultimately disappoints.

Solomon writes, “Whatever my eyes desired I did not keep from them. I kept my heart from no pleasure” (Ecclesiastes 2:10, esv). The man wasn’t kidding, either. Everything in Solomon’s house was made of gold. He feasted on the richest and most exotic foods from around the world. He took for himself a thousand wives and concubines to satisfy his every desire. (If that sounds like a bad idea to you—both practically and morally—I agree. But it shows just how far he was able to go to get whatever he wanted.) Solomon’s kingdom, the nation of Israel, was at peace, larger and more powerful than it ever had been or ever would be.

But Solomon wasn’t just a rich guy who happened to have a ton of money. He was also preternaturally talented. He was so well read that kings and queens from other nations marveled at his knowledge. He wrote New York Times best­ selling books on every subject imaginable. He built the most impressive temple the world had ever seen. He even wrote songs that have endured for millennia.

Having done all this, what was Solomon’s verdict? “Then I considered all that my hands had done and the toil I had expended in doing it, and behold, all was vanity and a striving after wind, and there was nothing to be gained under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 2:11, esv).

In other words, “I tried to have it all. I succeeded. And it was completely, utterly empty.”

Hevel. Vapor. Smoke.

2. Even the best business wisdom sometimes fails.

Here’s Solomon again: “I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all” (Ecclesiastes 9:11, esv).

Sometimes you do everything right and things just don’t work out. You take a calculated risk, but the timing is off, so your venture falls flat. You reach out to everyone in your network to help a new business off the ground, but they’re tied up with other projects and unable to help. An unforeseen event changes the market, and what once seemed like a sure thing suddenly becomes shaky.

Every entrepreneur knows that individual choices matter. This is why you read all the best books on leadership or creativity or marketing. You know that, by and large, wise business practices win out over foolish ones.

But that general principle isn’t an ironclad law. Sometimes life just feels, well, unlucky. And when (not if, but when) that happens—when your wise business practices don’t automatically lead to success—your whole life doesn’t have to crumble. Instead, you can understand that God’s wisdom and God’s plan are better than anything we could come up with.

3. In the same way, worldly justice systems eventually fail us.

This one is even more troubling, because it’s not just a matter of bad timing or bad luck. It’s a matter of injustice. As Solomon notes, “There is something else meaningless that occurs on earth: the righteous who get what the wicked deserve, and the wicked who get what the righteous deserve. This too, I say, is meaningless” (Ecclesiastes 8:14).

We’ve all wrestled with this painful reality at some point. Sometimes on this earth good goes unrewarded and evil goes unpunished. Even worse, there are times when evil not only goes unpunished but seems to be rewarded as a path to success.

Should we hold people accountable for injustices in business? Absolutely. Insofar as it lies within our power, we should not only model integrity but also insist on integrity all around us. But we also have to acknowledge what Solomon knew: corruption often wins. And if our entire worth is built on our entrepreneurship, that reality threatens everything.

4. The fruit of our labor crumbles.

Solomon writes, “I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. And who knows whether that person will be wise or foolish? Yet they will have control over all the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. This too is meaningless” (Ecclesiastes 2:18­19).

We’ve seen that happen through history with kingdoms, personal fortunes, sports teams, and business succession plans. It takes a lot of skill and wisdom to build something fruitful. It takes surprisingly little to undo it.

We may (and we should) think through succession plans.

We may (and we should) codify our values in our institutions so that they outlast us. We may (and we should) raise up leaders to carry on what we’ve built. But there are no guarantees. One day, like it or not, we will have to take our hands off our enterprises.

You may be a little uncomfortable with everything I’ve written so far. It’s not that you disagree with Solomon’s wisdom. But you’ve heard this kind of reasoning used to justify an amoral (or immoral) approach to life. After all, if nothing we do lasts, and if justice can fail us, then why care about doing the right thing? Why not just live it up and leave the mess for someone else to clean up?

Fortunately for us, Solomon doesn’t go that route. Life may seem like hevel, but if we step back just a bit further, Solomon encourages us to see a bigger picture—one in which we gladly realize that entrepreneurship can’t deliver satisfaction, meaning, or significance, because we already have those things in Christ.

Here are Solomon’s four truths to help you avoid the dangers of entrepreneurial hevel.

1. Realize that you were created for God!

St. Augustine said it over 1,500 years ago: “Our hearts are restless until they find their rest in [God].” Satisfaction, meaning, and significance are not found in success. They are found only in our identity as God’s children. When we root ourselves in that identity, the vicissitudes of life can only push us around so much. Success will still feel great; failure will still feel terrible. But with a firm anchor in Christ, success cannot intoxicate us, nor can failure dev­ astate us.

The book of Ecclesiastes ends with Solomon realizing that the only thing left for us to do, in light of all that is meaningless, is to fear God and keep his commandments. Our relationship with God and our life that flows from it matter above everything else.

2. Arrange your life around the certainty of judgment.

Death and the judgment of God are two of the only absolute realities in your life. That judgment could come for you this afternoon; it could come in seventy years. But come it will.

We all want to ignore this reality, because let’s face it: it’s not fun to meditate on death. But uncomfortable realities don’t simply disappear when we ignore them. In fact, they become even more dangerous.

There’s a great (and startling) analogy for this that I’ve heard attributed to seventeenth century French philosopher Blaise Pascal. He describes life as a giant party, full of happy people, loud music, and dancing, during which a monster unexpectedly bursts through the doors, grabs a random partygoer, mauls them in front of everyone, and drags their bloody corpse out of the room. Everyone watches in horror, and after it’s over, they stare at one another in stunned silence for a few moments.

But then the band kicks back up and everyone returns to their frivolity, putting the horrendous display out of their minds. This horror is repeated every few moments until it becomes apparent that the monster is eventually coming for everyone in the room. Yet still the party goes on.

That monster, Pascal said, is our impending death.

This reality shouldn’t terrify us. For believers, we know what lies on the other side of death. But it should sober us and moderate our expectations in life. We have only a short time on this earth. And only a fool would live as if he were going to live forever. So, as Solomon says, know how to count your days, and then make your days count.

3. Decide what God wants from you and pursue it.

And when I say “pursue it,” I mean really go after it. Be willing to take a chance on it. Could you fail? Certainly. But God delights in those who risk greatly for him. That’s as true in business as it is in missions.

Solomon writes, “Whoever watches the wind will not plant; whoever looks at the clouds will not reap” (Ecclesiastes 11:4). Here you have a farmer who never sows his seed because he is so scared the weather will not cooperate. What if it doesn’t rain? What if there is a sandstorm? An earthquake? A meteor shower?

As we’ve seen throughout Ecclesiastes, Solomon acknowledges that we can’t control things, and there is nothing in life that guarantees success—not great skill, careful planning, or even righteous living.

You have to embrace that truth and still work with wisdom and planning. Solomon writes just a couple verses later, “Sow your seed in the morning, and at evening let your hands not be idle, for you do not know which will succeed, whether this or that” (Ecclesiastes 11:6). In other words, don’t let the uncertainty of life and the possibility of failure paralyze you.

We can’t control things, and there is nothing in life that guarantees success. We have to embrace that truth and still work with wisdom and planning.

In this life, nothing is guaranteed, even if you do it right. But risk is okay. Not all risk, mind you. Not foolish and reckless risk. But some risk is right and wise, even inevitable.

If we, as entrepreneurs, want an ironclad divine promise of success, we’re just not guaranteed that in life. But that’s not supposed to discourage us from taking wise, well calculated risks.

4. Seek happiness in the present, not the future.

Solomon explains that we have a real temptation to always try to find happiness “out there.” But happiness is not around the next corner. It’s a gift from God for the present. You should look for it now, not later. If you’re not happy, Solomon says it’s not primarily a problem with your circumstances but with your relationship with God. “Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind” (Ecclesiastes 12:13). That’s it. After every­ thing that Solomon talked about, his conclusion is that we are to look to God, to fear him and obey him in the time we have.

Pascal, in his Pensées, said that the tragedy of many successful people is they never actually learn to enjoy life, because they are always living to enjoy it later. He writes,

“
We never keep to the present. . . . We are so unwise that we wander about in times that do not belong to us, and do not think of the only one that does; so vain that we dream of times that are not and blindly flee the only one that is. . . . Let each of us examine his thoughts; he will find them wholly concerned with the past or the future. We almost never think of the present, and if we do think of it, it is only to see what light it throws on our plans for the future. The present is never our end. The past and the present are our means, the future alone our end. Thus we never actually live, but hope to live, and since we are always planning how to be happy, it is inevitable that we should never be so.

For the believer, that need not be true. God has good things in store for his children—not only in the future, but today.

A few years ago, the opportunity came up for me to be the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. I was legitimately excited about it. Now, I’d like to say that all my excitement was about how great of an opportunity this was to leverage a role for the advancement of the gospel. A lot of it was. But I was also excited by the newness of it. Here was a new challenge and a new platform, both of which whispered to my heart, Perhaps this is the opportunity that will make you happy.

During this time, my wife, Veronica, told me something incredibly helpful regarding fame. She said, “Fame is making yourself accessible to a bunch of people you don’t know about at the expense of those you do.” I realized she was right. My quality of life is better when I am available to people close to me, and newer and bigger exploits can sometimes take me away from them. That’s not to say God doesn’t call me to that sometimes (in the end, I took the role), just that I shouldn’t be deceived about where happiness comes from.

The greatest gain God can give you is not more stuff or a new challenge or a bigger platform. The greatest gain he can give you is the ability to enjoy what you have.

Even in earthly terms, happiness, Solomon says, comes from the quality of relationships in the present, not the quantity of exploits in the future.

I point this out because I fear that many entrepreneurs will look around at their lives many years later and realize they gave away their greatest moments to get to some elusive future that didn’t deliver what it offered. The apostle Paul says, “Godliness with contentment is great gain” (1 Timothy 6:6). The greatest gain God can give you is not more stuff or a new challenge or a bigger platform. The greatest gain he can give you is the ability to enjoy what you have.

Centuries after King Solomon, another powerful man rose to power. By the time he was in his twenties, he had conquered an empire astronomically larger than Solomon’s— around two million square miles, nearly twice the size of modern India. He established cities that would last until the present day. Despite being a military man all his life, he never lost a battle. We know him today as Alexander the Great.

Alexander might have conquered more of the world than anyone else. But still he was unsatisfied, wishing for “another world to conquer.” He worshiped his empire, and it made him miserable.

Don’t be like Alexander. Submit your entrepreneurship to God and be excellent at it, but don’t turn it into a god. Don’t serve your work, but use your work to serve God and serve others.

WANT TO SEE THIS LIVED OUT?

Watch the story of Point B— a consulting firm that is breaking down the stereo- types of exhausted and overworked consultants by creating a healthy work-life balance for their entire company.



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