“We’re not just creating a job. We’re creating a way that people have security and sustainability for them and for their family.” – Keren Pybus

In this joint release episode Richard Cunningham and Justin Foreman discuss the problem of joblessness as part of the initiative, Solving the World’s Greatest Problems. They are joined by Keren Pybus, CEO of Ethical Apparel Africa, and Ronald Ishak, CEO of Hacktiv8. They explore the impact of job creation and upskilling on individuals, families, and communities.

Show Notes

Job creation and upskilling have a significant impact on individuals, families, and communities, providing stability, security, and opportunities for growth.

• Donor agencies have shifted their focus from pure aid to trade facilitation and capacity building, creating more opportunities for job creation.

• Collaboration and partnership among competitors and different stakeholders are essential in addressing global challenges and creating sustainable solutions.

• Investors and entrepreneurs can make a positive impact by aligning their passion and skills, seeking God’s wisdom, and connecting with like-minded individuals and organizations.

• Having faith-driven investors on board can provide support, encouragement, and prayer during the entrepreneurial journey.

00:00 Introduction and Purpose of the Joint Release

04:03 Introducing Solving the World’s Greatest Problems

05:09 Guest Introductions and Backgrounds

07:00 The Importance of Job Creation and Upskilling

16:25 Changing Perspectives and Collaborative Approaches

23:36 Impact Stories: Transformation through Job Creation and Upskilling

28:40 Advice for Investors and Entrepreneurs

35:59 The Power of Faith-Driven Investors

38:00 Conclusion

If you’d like to hear more about the Faith Driven Entrepreneur community groups, go to faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/groups.

Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast. And you’re about to hear this, right? The Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast as well. Really exciting episode today as we were doing a joint release on both the FDI and FDE pods. As Justin Forman, executive director, co-founder, president of Faith Driven Movements, is in the podcast studio with me today. And Justin, we’re shaking things up a little bit, doing a joint release for the faith driven Investor and Faith and Entrepreneur podcast. As we were zooming in a little bit on a new initiative we have. Solving the world’s greatest problems, Solving the world’s greatest Problems has its own website, its own podcast. It is newly launched, newly released. And today we kind of want to go out to the FDA and FDA audiences respectively, and zoom in on one of those great problems, the problem of joblessness. And we’ll welcome our guests here shortly. But Justin, what are we up to today with this kind of special edition joint release podcast?

Justin Forman Man, good to be on the podcast with you again. You make it sound all fancy and technical like we had some deep, deep things to get to, but we were just looking for an excuse to get Richard Cunningham back on the podcast here for Faith Driven Entrepreneur. So we’re going to take what we can get. We’re competing with Baylor Baseball, Baylor Sports and all the different things that you’re commentating and jumping in on. I mean, yeah, it’s great to be back here together. It’s great to be talking about issues that matter and talking about things that matter. And so many of you guys, if you’re familiar with that, you’re an entrepreneur and faith driven investor. I’ve been following long of a new initiative called Solving the World’s Greatest Problems. And what we endeavored to do with that is to say, what can we do to create a trusted place that people can discover ways that they might be called to get involved? You know, I think when we think about this message, we think about this idea 20 years ago, information was scarce. I mean, I was looking the other day at some of these images when they were talking about Google when it first launched and some of the first images to it. And they had the search bar and right underneath it and it said like, you know, searching 250,000 pages or something like that and more coming soon or whatever it is. And it was like the point was, is when they first launched, they were trying to make the case for more information is coming. More information is coming. Hold on. Today, 20 years later, we’re at the exact opposite where we have to use machine learning. We have to use other things to try to take all of the complex and make it accessible. And so solving the world’s greatest problems is trying to be that bridge, trying to be a place that as God moves you as an entrepreneur or an investor to get involved, that you can find that first step. And so we do that through content. We do that through stories, we do that through podcasts. But that’s just the start. There’s going to be so much more coming from giving collaborations and groups to to give and to invest together with. And so there’s a lot of that that’s coming. But where we have started is we have started with some content, we started some podcast, and so you may have been able to check that out. There’s been a couple of episodes recently released where we talked about the idea, we talk about the campaign, and then we started to talk about some of these upstream issues, starting with gospel poverty. We had David Platt, we had Mart Green. Let’s talk about just some of the opportunities are in front of us and today we’re present into this idea of joblessness. And as you saw our creative team, if you check this out on the site, you’ll see this this image of these dominoes. And we really think that this is one of those issues represented by those dominoes. It’s upstream that if we can get some of this stuff right, not only can we find ways to better care for people and avoid some of the hurts and heartaches that come about when that’s not the case, but to we can just think about the opportunity that entrepreneurs, investors have, that we can be sources of either redemption or brokenness. That’s a very way that we go about it. We could be furthering some of the world’s problems if we’re not careful, or we can be a source on the other side. So yeah, super excited to talk about that. Today. We’re going to press on with some fun guests about this issue. But before we do that, we wanted to give you a little teaser. This is a little teaser, a couple of minutes of an episode for solving the World’s Greatest Problems podcast. It’s a fun style where it’s kind of like how I built this Guy Raz versus Radiolab just kind of mashed up together of all of these stories in a fun, engaging way. So let’s listen to that and then Richard will kick us off and some conversation.

Narrator What happens when a job is lost? Many of us understand the individual challenges one might face in unemployment. You know, things like increased stress, depression and insecurity. But that’s not even the worst part of it. The compounding effects of joblessness often lead to worse schooling outcomes for children, and those same children will have a much more difficult time in the labor market getting jobs once they become adults. Now, let’s let’s zoom out a little bit further and think about this on a macro level. Picture an entire community of people facing unemployment. Think about all the individuals who would struggle with their mental health. Think about the families this would affect. These are not imagined scenarios. You know, we can look at a city like Detroit in the United States and see the effects of joblessness on an entire community. In the mid 20th century, Detroit was a booming city with nearly 2 million people. It was among the country’s five most populous cities as people came in droves to work for the auto industry. Jobs were plentiful until suddenly. They weren’t between 1950 and 2010. The city saw more than a 60% decrease in its population. In 2013, the entire city filed for bankruptcy, and by 2022, the poverty rate was 33.8%, more than twice the average of the rest of the state of Michigan. Today, nearly half of all the children in Detroit grow up in poverty. While no one can limit the city’s downfall to one specific thing. There’s no doubt that the radical decrease in employment accelerated its downfall. The auto industry that once played the city’s hero quickly became the villain as thousands upon thousands of jobs were lost. And the lack of jobs affects more than the worker. You know, joblessness can shatter families, communities and entire cities. But that means the flipside is also true. Job creation can create positive and generational impact. It revitalizes, redeems and restores. My name is Afl-cio John. I’m the director of Global prosperity at the Cleveland Christian. And I’ll be a host of this episode of Solving the World’s Greatest. Today on the show, we’re going to talk about ways that Christian builders, investors and givers are helping the church win in this fight against darkness by creating jobs that bring positive and lasting change. Now let’s dive in. Act one Creating better systems. We’ll start the show off today addressing the urgency of the situation. Now, if you’d like to stress yourself out about the future, just take a look at recent studies on the global job market. A recent report by the World Economic Forum forecast that in the next five years, job growth will increase by 69 million. That sounds pretty good until you read on. There will also be a decline of 83 million jobs in that same time period. In essence, we are going to lose more jobs than we gain. And to be clear, this data represents a job market across the entire world. Sometimes people hear about the issue of joblessness and mentally relegated to certain countries or think that it only applies to developing regions. But wealthier economies are not immune to the changing winds. In fact, Jack Kelly, a senior contributor for Forbes, wrote an article in 2023 summarizing a study by Goldman Sachs that predicts that 300 million jobs will be lost because of artificial intelligence. Kelly puts the issue bluntly in the article, writing that if generative A.I. lives up to its hype, the workforce in the United States and Europe will be upended. This is a global issue, but it is not unsolvable. Many of our brothers and sisters around the world have been fighting this battle already, and they have been winning, especially in areas where joblessness is not a new problem.

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Richard Cunningham Welcome back, everyone. All right. Let’s dive into today’s conversation. We have got a couple of just extraordinary seasoned builders. And while Justin Foreman and I are both in the state of Texas, I’m in Austin and Justin is up in the DFW area. We are traveling across the world for this one as we have Keren Pybus of Ethical Apparel Africa, located in West Africa. And Ronald Ishak of Hacktiv8 coming to us from Jakarta, Indonesia. So what a joy to have so many geographies and time zones covered. Friends. Ronald, we’ll start with you. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being with us.

Ronald Ishak Thanks for having me.

Richard Cunningham It’s fun. Yeah, absolutely. And Karen, you as well. Hey, let’s do this to kind of help set the stage. How about a 30 to 60 second kind of intro and background from each of you personally and professionally? And then we’ll get going.

Keren Prybus Okay. Hi, I’m Keren, and I’m the CEO of Ethical Apparel Africa and the co founder. We are seeking to create jobs in West Africa through ethical apparel manufacturing. We have a factory there and work with multiple other factories as well to create jobs through an ethical way of manufacturing clothing where we put all of our profits back into the workers and worker empowerment and creating the best place to work. We want to do it on a large scale, so we’re mainly exporting to the US and a bit to the UK and Europe. I’ve been in the textile and fashion industry for 30 years, so it’s my passion and my love all together.

Ronald Ishak Yeah. And I’m Ronald Ishaq and I do have debate. I’ve been building this for the last eight years. I founded it and leading it as CEO. We’re basically a program that turns absolute beginners into job ready developers. And 12 to 16 weeks and then help them find jobs not just in Indonesia, but also around the world as well. And so, Dan, we’ve trained today up to 50,000 people through our multiple programs, from bootcamps to corporate training programs to video based courses and things like that. And it’s been a fun and exciting journey just to see people from a stage where they’re very insecure, where they are, to see them thrive and succeed using just the power of technology. So thanks for having me.

Richard Cunningham Yeah, it’s great to have both you guys on. It’s been fun to capture both of your stories in different ways. So for our listeners here, they’re dialing in. There’s two great video stories capturing both of the journeys here. And so be sure to check that out either on the Solving the World’s Greatest Problems website or faith driven investor websites. But Karen, I was hoping that maybe you could kind of kick us off here when we talk about solving some of the world’s greatest problems. Oftentimes we think about maybe aid and we think about charity. We think about the different ways that nonprofits step in to solve some of these problems. But I would love for you to just kind of cast the vision of like when people say a job is created. We hear that in our report here in the West. We might hear that in a jobs report varies around the world. But when a job is created, when that’s happened, can you just kind of give us kind of some of the perspective of what that does, either for a family or for a community and just the ways that that has such a ripple effect beyond just even that one individual job?

Keren Prybus Yeah, definitely. I think for us it was really about giving people sustainability and giving people security. And when you’re working in an environment where there’s a huge amount of informal employment and lots of opportunities for informal employment, it doesn’t give us stability. And that’s really what creating these jobs is doing, not just for the individual but also for their family. And quite often they can be the breadwinner or maybe 1 or 2 breadwinners in the family, which means that they can provide a really basic level. They’re providing food, they’re providing housing, they’re providing amenities, they’re providing a lifestyle. There’s even beyond just those basics for those people. But it means that they can rely on it. They can save for their futures. They can you know, in Africa, saving for your funeral fund is a really big, huge deal. And at the same time, they can have support and things that are going to enable them to live their lives in a secure way, too. So whether that’s the health insurance that comes with it or whether it’s other things like the free lunch that they get, which means that they don’t have to then feed themselves, you know, a big meal again later on because they’ve had a really big meal at lunchtime or something like that. So it’s more than just a job. It’s about creating a a way that people have security and sustainability for them and for their family.

Richard Cunningham Let’s talk about that a little bit more. When you talk about the family work, what does that look like? Because I love where you’re going with this, because, you know, when we talk about solving the world’s greatest problems, the website, we talk about 30 of the problems, we talk about some of the different ones, and we talk about fracturing families. We talk about health care, we talk about anxiety. We talk about hunger, we talk about homelessness. We talk about all these different things. And I think that you’re taking us some places, but specifically with the family. Can you talk about the confidence or the ways that the family is able to thrive when you have that consistency of employment?

Keren Prybus Yeah, in a lot of developing countries and culturally. So a family stays together, so you will have generations of family living together. It’s not always true. We’ve got people that are in our factories that are in their 20s living on their own. So it doesn’t necessarily mean that, but sometimes they’ll also travel in and they’ll have families living in villages elsewhere. And so you’re not just providing for your own disposable income, you’re providing for a network of people that are reliant on you. Now, we’re very fortunate in Ghana that education is free up to the age of 18, so that’s not necessarily a factor. But that’s not true in many, many countries where people are having to pay for education. So you’re paying for that next generation that you may be paying for a younger sibling to go through university, for example, to create opportunities for that person for the future. You may be supporting health care with one of your older relatives that maybe would have just necessarily died younger for no reason at all if they hadn’t been able to access that health care that you are able to do. You’re providing also in a lot of situations, people to be able to stand on their own if they’re in a really bad situation. Domestic abuse, adultery, anything like that, which means somebody needs to be able to go out on their own. They can do that. They can support themselves being able to they can remove themselves from a dangerous situation because they’ve got the security of that job and the security of not just the job. And I think what’s really important within this and. Maybe we’ll come onto this later. It is not about just a job. It’s about that job being worthwhile, sustainable, safe, and a place that they can have a family within that job environment as well as their family that’s outside of that. So it takes away a lot of that. What if what can I do? That kind of thing? And it creates people honestly. We’ve noticed a real shift into from short term thinking into long term thinking. They’re not just thinking about what’s going to happen the next day. What do I need to spend my money on for the next day? They’re thinking about what can I do for the future? How can I change my living accommodation? How can I provide for my sibling to do this or whatever? And because they’ve got the security of longevity.

Richard Cunningham Karen That’s incredible context and setting the stage, we’re going to come back to you in a number of points you just unpacked. But let’s go over to Ron real quickly and kind of hear some of the initial context as well. And your camp, Ron, because for lack of better terms, you’ve created a coding school that takes individuals and gives them the ability to access so many various different types of work across Asia. And so we’d love to hear kind of some of this from your perspective and activate.

Ronald Ishak So I think like what comes to mind to me is thinking about the minimum wage in Indonesia. You know, in US dollar terms, like a month salary here in Indonesia is equivalent to about $400, and that’s the formal one, right? And then so there’s a lot more informal people taking jobs like, you know, selling things on the street and things like that. It might be a lot, lot less motorcycle delivery drivers perhaps. And so when we think about what we can unlock by, you know, teaching people how to code, it’s really unlocking not just, you know, to go beyond the minimum wage of what’s possible, but also being able to cross political boundaries, people to be able to work somewhere, you know, Singapore to Australia, where the minimum wage is, you know, significantly higher, the pay is significantly better. And then on top of that, as a software developer, they can just do so much more to the point that, you know, when those opportunities are unlocked, you know, somebody can suddenly, you know, support their entire family and just do incredible, incredible things.

Richard Cunningham So talk a little bit about that, Ron, because I think here’s one of the things that we think about. We think sometimes we create a job and it’s like a static thing and we’ve created it and like we’ve added to the count and. All right, good. Well, let’s go on to be creating the next one. But yet we live in this inflationary environment. We live in these places where the costs continue to go up, where we figure out some of these different things that are happening. And even in your business, when you talk about coding and teaching coding, that’s always changing. You’re always having to upgrade, you’re always having to change. I would imagine, you know, artificial intelligence, machine learning that’s changed and pushed you guys to figure out, okay, how does that change for us? So how has something like that forced you guys to continually be upskilling and innovating?

Ronald Ishak I think A.I. has really changed my business quite a lot. You know, it’s kind of like giving somebody a calculator, right? You know, it increases the productivity significantly. And then so we’ve had to upgrade our programs to help people sort of adapt to all these new tools for us to produce more output in just much shorter periods of time. But I think one of the challenges being a school is kind of like just like giving somebody a calculator. You want them to learn the math first before they just use, you know, just the buttons and press the equals and then have the results fit out. And so, you know, those might be some of the initial challenges. But I think like, you know, once it’s enabled people to just be significantly more productive, like ten x more productive, I think it’s just amazing what it unlocks.

Richard Cunningham And tosses out openly to both of you guys. We often talk about entrepreneurs that things have changed and for entrepreneurs that I guess we’d put it this way the hero of the problems of the world years ago often was like the celebrity cause it was the big concert, it was big business, it was aid, it was all of that. And now, as we’ve been talking about, like, it’s changed and people are noticing job creation, they’re noticing economics, they’re noticing the important sustainability. How have you guys seen that not just being noticed by the church, but just maybe other like local city governments, municipalities? How are you seeing opportunities to partner just with the broader ecosystem of investors, NGOs? How are you seeing some of this kind of come into play where people are saying, man, you’re solving a problem and that we have a shared vision of making sure that there’s growth in that? I mean, because here in Texas, I mean, people are recruiting businesses left and right. We are trying to just harness economic development left and right. How are you guys seeing that in your context? How are you seeing other people value the job creation potential of entrepreneurs?

Keren Prybus I think the biggest change for me is actually being with the big donor agencies. So where a lot of US aid or the Foreign Commonwealth Development Office or Jay-Z or Solidaridad, those people’s money went into pure aid. And there’s still some very, very important elements of that part of it. They have shifted huge budgets into trade facilitation, which in turn creates jobs. Because you’re creating manufacturing in different places. And it’s not just about creating market linkages. It’s about funding to create capacity building, create technical skills, create career path, create opportunities for locals. So for us, you know, we’re trying to create a textile industry in Ghana that, you know, really has a huge, deep roots in a lot of very traditional manufacturing but doesn’t have the experience of doing it to international standards or international compliance standards. We have to bring in a lot of expats to do a lot of those things, to be in with a lot of skills training to be able to pass on that knowledge. One of the big things with the donor agencies is how do we pass that skills to the locals so that it doesn’t become reliant on an expat type of business. But actually you’re upskilling the locals. So I’d say the donor agencies have really changed their mindset around that, which means that there’s a lot more money available to get grants and things to be able to kick start some of these programs or to be able to work with programs and work with investors as well. So a lot of it’s also then linked to how are investors going to work with it. So there’s a lot of match funding available to. So if you got an investor that’s going to work alongside you, then the donor agency will match that funding, which makes it really attractive for an investor as well because they’re getting a great deal for that money. So I think the donor agencies definitely wrong.

Richard Cunningham What would you say to that?

Ronald Ishak You know, I think for me, like looking back in the last few years, you know, I think one of the big things to sort of happened was the pandemic. But one of the things that come out of that for us is actually building this thing called the Association of Digital Talents Training of Indonesia. And so this is a collaboration effort between me and my competitors, but then sort of working for the greater good, working closer to the government. We now have a channel to work with together with them, sort of see why we need more talent in the marketplace that knows how to use technology. And also thinking that, you know, ever since the pandemic, sort of the acceleration of a lot of these traditional companies suddenly coming to become digital, you know, the need of talent for digital in Indonesia has spiked quite a lot. And then so now, you know, the government is more receptive to sort of like, okay, you know, let’s start to build standards so that we can scale this faster. Let’s create some protections here and there. So I think that has sort of been this shift that I see in the last few years for us.

Richard Cunningham Ron, I wanted to push into something you said there. When you’re talking about change, you’re making change. You just said that you weren’t going about it on your own, but you were linking arms with even some of your competitors. How would that change the dynamic? How has the conversation changed within that? There’s something unique there that oftentimes competition is a funny word, especially in the church. What are you learning through that process?

Ronald Ishak You know, one of the most unique parts about this association is sort of how it sort of came together as well. You know, I remember in the middle of the pandemic, you know, everybody was stressed out. My competitors were stressed out. And we actually got in a Zoom call together and we ended up praying together, funny enough, and sort of that relationship of just, you know, instead of seeing each other as competitors, sort of as like, hey, we got to survive this together so that we can come out of this, you know, we’ll be stronger together. It really started out of that. And then so that relationship was built out, you know, over the next 2 to 3 years. We only set up the association this year, sort of putting all of the competitors together, working for a greater good. I think that’s the beauty of working in education. It’s not trying to kill each other. It’s not trying to like, you know, winner takes all type of game. But then with education, you know, it’s kind of like we can help enlarge the pie. We can create more opportunities. So it’s been cool to sort of see that roll out, especially because I’ve been in the field of like, you know, building startups, trying to kill each other and things like that. But then in education, it’s just like, Hey, we’re here, you know, for the greater good type thing. And so it’s a cool collaboration. I think it’s something cool to observe.

Keren Prybus I would add to that too, because I think you’re absolutely right. We work with multiple different factories across Ghana and trying to bring all of their different skills, and they are technically all competitors. But for a buyer coming into the country, they don’t want to come into the country and buy from one factory. They want to be able to come in and make the trip worthwhile. They want to be able to buy from multiple factories. So if those factories can work together in terms of finding their own unique selling points, what is the thing that makes them specific? It might be a type of machinery they’ve got. It might be a type of product they’re making. It might be a particular type of market that they’re serving. They can all then layer together and work together with things. Then you create something that is more attractive from a trade perspective as well, and you’re not working against each other. You’re putting your energies into working together. So I think there’s huge value in as Christians leading that and being people that don’t put the competition factor first is something that sometimes does make us different within a marketplace as well.

Richard Cunningham A tide that raises all boats, if you will need to hear you both riff on that. All right. Well, hey, I want to get you almost personal in this aspect of it. Karen, maybe you at the job creation, Ron, you with almost the job upskilling. Can you think about a specific story or stories of some lives that you’ve seen, people that you’ve been fortunate enough to employ or maybe Ron, you’ve seen come through your program and just kind of the effects and this the transformation that you’ve witnessed take place in a particular live or lives. Karen, I’ll start with you.

Keren Prybus Yeah, sure. If you watch the video of Africa about Africa, you’ll see a girl who Florence, who’s profiled on there and Florence came to us as an operator not hugely long out of school, and we saw a skill set in her in terms of her ability to think outside the box, her ability to embrace technology. And we put a lot of effort and work into creating different skill sets with her. So first, full motor skills on different machinery, teaching her all the basics of sewing and moving her through the kind of ranks, putting us into some external training around pattern creation. And she is now the assistant person manager in the factory, and she’s gone from, in her family kind of being somebody that is part of that family environment to being one of the major breadwinners in that family, ensuring that her grandmother could get the health care that she needed. And so seeing individuals like that moving through is just really exciting. A warehouse manager came same, similar saying Raphael came through the ranks, really try some different things and we’re just able to hone those skills and and I think they then act as role models to others in the factory because yeah we need to bring in a lot of expert expertise and everything else. But sometimes we as expats can be almost out of reach for the locals. They can’t identify with how they can get there, how they can develop that skill set. And especially when you’re trying to teach not just a technical thing, you’re trying to teach people to think outside the box. You’re trying to get them to think horizontally and vertically and problem solving. You’re trying to, you know, look at different attitudes to work towards work and those kind of things. You’re trying to teach all of those things, not just the if you sit at this machine and press this button, it’s going to do this type thing. And so by seeing other Ghanaians that have moved through the factory and move through the industry into other things and to other roles and progress and seen how their lifestyle changes as an impact or how they then steward the resources that God has given them. It inspires other people and inspires others to look at it and to take that job and think, this isn’t just about coming in and working your 8 to 5 shift. This is actually about something that could be more than this and creating something for themselves as well as their family.

Richard Cunningham What would you like to happen on that?

Ronald Ishak I think, you know, when I think about the stories that we there’s so many I think the one that I always come back to is this guy. You know, whether you’re one of our alumni who has sort of joined our program during the pandemic, in the video there, a whole section of it in there where they get to interview him. But it’s just a cool story to sort of see somebody from a motorcycle delivery driver that had dropped out of school, couldn’t afford to pay for his university degrees, sort of join Activate, took up our income share agreement program where he didn’t have to pay anything now, but then he would pay later after he would get a job from the Activate program. Sort of just see that transformation and that just sort of even wanting to see it all the way till the day where he sort of jump from one job to another job and just seeing his career progress, it’s always like exciting, you know, to sort of just give somebody the tools to build and then sort of see what they can build from that. And I think what’s really cool as well is also seeing him, you know, volunteering to be able to teach some of the Activate classes as well, you know, sometimes as a guest lecturer and things like that. I think it’s just heartwarming to sort of see once you sort of help somebody overcome that deep insecurity or that one thing and then the amount of gratitude that they have afterwards, I think it’s just amazing.

Richard Cunningham Great thoughts. Very grateful for the work that both of you guys are doing. We often say that business has the opportunity to create redemption or to create brokenness. We can run businesses in ways that can further some of the very problems that we’re trying to prevent. Or we can step into those dark spots and be light and that can be that redemptive tool. So one of the things that we do with solving the world’s greatest problems is try to make the complex accessible to try to help people take that first step. And so I would love for you guys as we close here to give just kind of a word of advice. If you’ve got an investor or an entrepreneur that’s listening to this for the first time listening to this and they’re hearing for the first time in some ways that jobs can be some of the upstream solutions to some of the world’s greatest problems. Maybe in the past, everything that they thought about, they’ve been thinking about the giving pocket and the giving side of things. And they’re starting to see that really all comes from one pocket, whether it’s giving or it’s investing, it’s all the resources that we’ve been entrusted. So they’re coming to that place and they’re throwing their hands up saying, I want to know more. I want you guys to speak. Maybe there’s an article, maybe there’s a. Maybe there’s a moment, maybe there’s scripture, something on each of your journeys that really kind of is the moment where the lightbulb turned on for you and you realized, wow, this has an opportunity for this is is just as much ministry and impact as some of the traditional things in the traditional viewpoints. So for listeners out there, where should they start? What’s a good place for them? What’s a good article or something to go through? Karen. I’ll turn to you first. What would you encourage people to do to take their step to explore further?

Keren Prybus Well, that’s quite a big question. I think for me, right at the beginning, I think where your passion and your skills meet is often where your calling is. And I think just because you’re really passionate about something doesn’t mean you have to necessarily give up on it. So if there’s an industry that you’re passionate about, you’ve got skills in that industry. Embracing and seeing what you can do in that industry is really important. My kind of big changing moment, I guess, was reading the John Ortberg book, If you want to walk on the water, you’ve got to get out of the boat. And just knowing that actually you’re never going to solve it or you’re going to get out of that boat and there’s going to be moments where you’re sinking and moments when you don’t know what you’re doing, but fixing your eyes on Jesus and just keeping that kind of like one thing has been really good. I think a learning for us, particularly when you’re thinking about job creation, is making sure that within there your recruitment policies and the process for bringing people on board is really thorough and robust. You don’t have to kind of shy away from that just because you’re trying to give all these jobs to people. You know, we’ve got people queuing up outside the factory every day looking for work. I can’t give a job to everybody and solve all of the world’s joblessness. And so it’s about getting the right people, praying through that, but also creating what are the right tests. Interview stage. How do you test for attitude, for behavior as much as technical skills? How do you give people that proper training that gives them the chance to swim at the beginning and not just sink because you bring somebody in the new pulse so much things on and that they can’t actually cope with it. How do you hold people’s hands through that? How do you give them the life skills training that goes along the side, the jobs training as well, so that, you know, most of the people that we’ve employed have never had a formal job in their life before. So even just the concept of turning up to work on time every day at the same time every day is a completely alien concept. And so explaining the why for a lot of these things, as well as the what becomes really important and for investors. You know, we had a moment, I guess we went on the marketplace very early on in our kind of FDI journey. And we have an incredible investor, Jeff, who you will see on our video. I’ll name him because he’s on the video. So you’ll see him anyway, who saw at the beginning of vision for this and saw also that you’ve got to go through a training cycle when you’re creating jobs and you’re not creating income while you’re training. And so having money to pay those salaries and be able to support those people and create that whilst maybe they’re not creating value for your organization because you’re in a training environment, but you need to do that is where investment becomes really important because having that cash in to be able to do that and then to be able to support those people through that training environment as you then are able to then turn that their work and their things into output for the business later on becomes this really important marriage between what the investors can do and what the entrepreneurs can do. So I’d say go for it. Find your passion for your skills, putting together, pray about it and jump out of the boat.

Richard Cunningham Richard We should have just started in in the podcast right there. We should just hand the mic to Karen. Gotten out of the way. I mean, that’s. Aaron. That’s going to be tough to top, man, but that was really good.

Ronald Ishak That was really good. I think, you know, for me, thinking back, like the last, gosh, eight years, I think that the journey of Building Activate came with a lot of insecurities. You know, it came with a lot of doubt for me. But I remember somebody telling me, you know, God doesn’t call the qualified, but he qualifies the call. And I think like that really put it into perspective for me to remember what I need to lean on. But this time, where when there’s things that I can’t do, I need to pray about it. And sort of just seeking God in every moment of building something and sort of just, you know, looking back now, it’s just being a maze of what, you know, putting and leading on God was able to do. And so I think, you know, there’s listeners out there sort of thinking about, you know, I want to build something, know I want to create more jobs in the marketplace. And I believe that if God has planted that in your heart and that’s something that you step out in faith to do, that I really do believe that God can use that for his kingdom and for his glory.

Richard Cunningham Man Great words from both you guys. So grateful for the wisdom. I love what you’re talking about. Karen, is this as you talk about this idea that you can’t give a job to everyone, and in those moments you have your heart tugging your head, kind of wrestling through that. There’s still sequence, there’s a process. There’s still best practice. This is to learn from love the perspective. What you’re talking about, Ron, is we’re always learning. We’re always learning to upskill. We’re always learning to that. And even as much like what you hit on there at the end as independent and as driven as we are, that we really at our core are designed to be dependent. And that is a weird, weird thing for an entrepreneur to face and wrestle with daily. So grateful for Wisdom listeners that you are dialing into this. Here’s my encouragement. You might be feeling this thought of man. I want to explore this more, but I don’t know where to go. I don’t know where to start. There’s some great resources. John Edwards book. I love the thought of just kind of getting out of the boat, a way to get out of the boat. And way to step into this is to have a conversation with other like minded entrepreneurs or other like minded investors. And so Richard, myself and others on the team of all been a part of leading different faith driven entrepreneur and faith through an investor groups they meet either in person or online. But if you’re an investor and you really wrestling with this idea and thinking, man, God, give me some capital or family, some capital to entrust to invest in the businesses that are upstream of this or to give to some of those organizations that are helping facilitate some of the job creation, whatever that might look like. My encouragement would be is to check out the Solving the World’s Greatest Problems website, but then check out one of these faith driven investor groups. There are some just robust conversations that are taking place there. And as Richard can attest to, there’s a lot of like minded investors that are meeting each other for the first time, realizing that that passion that God has placed in you, there are others that share that passion. And when you connect with them, man, it changes everything. Richard, any closing thoughts for us as we come to a wrap? And I think the thing I would say is Ron, Karen, just knowing some of your stories and your journeys, you’re both backed by faith driven investors. And I can just imagine maybe just a quick word on that. As a faith driven entrepreneur building something, stepping out of the boat, what an encouragement is to have like minded values on the cap table, am I right?

Keren Prybus 100%. It’s been an absolute privilege and just a faith building thing when when people just cool you up off the back of a podcast or a back of a video and go, I love what you’re doing and I feel that goes calling me to work with you and you just like, Wow, this is just incredible for people like on the opposite side of the world that maybe I’ve never even visited the country you’re working in to want to go on that journey. And so I’m really grateful for anyone that’s invested in ethical apparel, Africa or anybody that wants to in the future as well. And it has been incredible witness to, you know, we don’t employ all Christians. And so for the team to see the amount of Christian investors that we have on as well has been also a really amazing witness as well. And for those that have managed to come and visit and see what you do. So yeah, get on the train. It’s a great one to be on.

Ronald Ishak Absolutely. I think like I remember the times, you know, when things are difficult and when you get your investors to pray together with you, I think it’s just so empowering. So, yeah, I’m just so grateful for that.

Richard Cunningham Some Ronald Ishak activate out of Jakarta, Indonesia. Karen Pybus of Ethical Apparel, Africa and Ghana. What a fun episode. What a joy to have you both on for a special faith. You’re an entrepreneur and faith driven investor kind of release episode looking at solving the world’s greatest problems. For Justin Foreman, I’m Richard Cunningham. Thank you so much for joining us. Friends. We will catch you next time.

Narrator We are grateful for the opportunity to serve this community and see your listeners come in for more than 100 countries Faith driven investing can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. The best way to stay connected is to join a group study with other investors looking to get the same answers, the questions you have and find great community as they do so there’s no cost, no catch. In person or online, you can meet an hour a week with other peers from your backyard or the other side of the world. You can also stay connected by signing up for our monthly newsletter and faith driven investing Dawg. This podcast wouldn’t be possible without the help of many of our friends. Executive Producer Justin Foreman. Intro mixed and arranged by Summer Drags Audio and Editing by Richard Barley. Our theme song is Sweet Ever After by Ellie Holcomb.

“We aren’t content with good ideas. We want God ideas.” – Mark Batterson

IJoin us for an inspiring discussion with Mark Batterson, Bill Job, and Justin Forman as they unpack the concept of “holy curiosity” in entrepreneurship. This episode takes listeners on a journey from the coffeehouse-turned-church in Washington D.C. to the factory floors of China, revealing how faith can drive innovation and risk-taking in business. Batterson introduces his new book on rediscovering everyday miracles, while Job shares powerful anecdotes about finding joy and purpose in unexpected places. Together, they challenge the notion of “safe” Christianity and encourage entrepreneurs to embrace the adventure of faith-driven business. This conversation is a must-listen for anyone seeking to integrate their spiritual life with their entrepreneurial pursuits.

If you’d like to hear more about the Faith Driven Entrepreneur community groups, go to faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/groups.

Justin Forman Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Great to be with you guys again. It’s Justin here hosting this week’s episode. And one of the things I recently said on social media is one of the just great joys that I get in life is I get to feel like I spend time with with rock stars, not the guys that have large TikTok followings and all this type of stuff, but humble heroes of the faith that have been living this out in long obedience and a faithful direction for some time. And today’s episode is just a treat for me to get to connect some of those stories that have meant a lot on my journey. And so in today’s episode, we’re going to be talking about just the joy of what it means to follow God, the wonder of it, and the wonder of being in touch, being in conversation at every turn. And so one of those fun stories for me, when I had started this 20 years ago, I started this journey post-college and exploring this conversation of what does it mean if you lose faith and work together was running across an incredible story of an entrepreneur on the other side of the world in Shaman China that was being faithful to follow God’s call. And it was a gift for us then to capture a story that inspired so many as we were building right now media and inspired so many in the years. And so a previous guest on our podcast coming back to co-host this episode with me. Welcome back Bill Jobe to the show.

Bill Job Thank you, Justin. It’s great to be with you.

Justin Forman Indeed it is. It’s fun to think about it. Bill Cash, What was that? Was it a dozen years ago, 15 years ago, trying to remember when was it that we were actually filming that story?

Bill Job I’m afraid to count. I think it’s closer to 20.

Justin Forman Yeah, it was a while ago and it’s just fun to think about that. And we may have have that story on a VHS tape somewhere. I don’t know if that went straight to streaming or straight to VHS tape, but it’s been a while. But man, what a testament just to the way that God has worked over the years. And it’s just fun to have you back and fun to talk about this topic of what does it look like to kind of follow God and do that? And when we were thinking about just this topic and about unpacking this issue, it was fun to reconnect and to hear the story of Mark Patterson’s upcoming book, just talking about this very same topic. And for me personally, just another fun moment as we have gotten to film some different projects in the early days with right now media and just everything that was there. And one of the things that struck me just about this idea of faith in the marketplace is that this has been a growing trend. Pastors increasingly getting a passion, understanding and appreciation for just how God is just moving the marketplace. And Mark is one of those guys that has been leading this conversation, been having this conversation for some time. So, Mark, welcome to the show and thanks for joining us.

Mark Batterson: Great to be back. Justin Excited to be with both of you and to see where the conversation takes us.

Justin Forman Well, Mark, start us off for a minute. When you talk about the journey of National Community Church, it’s a unique story of how you guys planted both and how it was planted and where you guys are today. Can you give everybody just a quick flyover of the church that you guys are part of?

Mark Batterson Yeah, we started with the core group of 19 people for about 20 years. We’re 80% single 20 somethings. So a very young and I think pretty innovative church. There are ways of doing church no one’s thought of yet. We believe that church ought to be the most creative place on the planet. So, you know, most churches out of the gate might build a church building. We decided to build a coffeehouse and a place where church and community could cross paths. Well, why would you do that? Because Jesus didn’t just hang out at the synagogue, hung out at Wells, these natural gathering places and ancient culture. And so we thought, well, let’s build a coffeehouse. Plus, I would say the Holy Spirit plus caffeine equals awesome, those two things together. And so we have continued to just be in the marketplace. In fact, maybe we’ll talk a little bit. We now have a city block, 100,000ft² that we are building out as a mixed use marketplace event venue and pretty fun because we get to interface with thousands of people that may not darken a church door, but maybe we’ll rub shoulders and have a positive impact on them. Yeah, and we’re 28 years in which I guess what I’m saying is I’m not getting any younger.

Justin Forman Yeah, well, what a remarkable story of just kind of where got sort of relate to being a history buff. I can’t walk past the fact of just kind of that new building that you talked about. When you talk about being in the marketplace, like there’s a rich tradition that you guys are building on there.

Mark Batterson There is, we feel, a Isaiah 58 calling to rebuild the broken walls so turned a crack house into that coffee house in an abandoned apartment building in Ward seven that we turned into our DC Dream Center and then our Capitol Hill campus. This city block was the Navy Yard car barn built in 1891. So the brick in these walls is more than 130 years old. And it’s where streetcars were repaired and rerouted for most of its history. So we called it the capital turnaround, and we just turnaround people’s lives instead of streetcars. So that’s the long and short.

Justin Forman What a great story. Well, let’s present a little bit. You’ve got a book coming out. We’re thrilled to be a part of kind of introducing this to the faith driven entrepreneur audience. I think there’s so much crossover when we talk about this issue. Tell everybody about the idea behind the book. What got you to here and maybe just kind of lead us into some of the conversations you’ve had and how this applies to entrepreneurs.

Mark Batterson Yeah, well, a million little Miracles, fun book to write and a lot of research. I think more footnotes or end notes than any book I’ve written about 688 and notes. But I love science. I think all truth is God’s truth. I think embryology is a branch of theology. And so I’ve met people who say they’d never experience a miracle. With all due respect, you’ve never. Not in fact, you are one. So Albert Einstein said only two ways to live your life. One is as if nothing is a miracle. The other is as if everything is. So this book is not about the miracles that are the anomalies and epiphanies. Now, I believe in those kind of miracles, too. These are the everyday miracles that we tend to take for granted, like the 37 sextillion chemical reactions happening in the human body right now. You are fearfully and wonderfully made. So I did my toe in everything from neuroanatomy to astrophysics, everything in between. And just to remind readers, life is a miracle. Today is a miracle. You are a miracle. Every breath is a miracle. Every drop of water. So that’s the tip of the iceberg just in. But it’s a book about rediscovering the miracles that are all around us all the time.

Justin Forman Bill, I’d love for you to jump in here. You know, followers of the podcast have been following this for quite some time. I know we got such incredible feedback from the episode when we had you on before, and you talked about just kind of some of the things. Mark just unpack. There is the wonder and the joy that we have as entrepreneurs is just kind of following on this journey. Can you just kind of push into that a little bit of what that’s look like for you and your journey as an entrepreneur?

Bill Job I think a lot of what we eventually experienced came from a shift of identity where instead of serving God with the business that I was forming, I actually got under him. Seeing him as the owner who went to work with me every single day. Initially I felt like from the talents and the minus stories, he was like the master in that story that gives me a command to do business until he returns and now he’s going to go away and get another kingdom. And after a long time, he’ll return. So in the first few years, it felt like I was alone to develop this business that we started. And then I realized that actually it’s an Old Testament story and in the sense that it happened before the death and resurrection of Jesus. And so right in John 17, he says this great hand-off thing. He says, You know that glory I have with my dad that I’ve been demonstrating to you guys all this time, I am giving that glory to you. It’s going to be me and you and you and me. And so then when I replayed this talents in the miners stories, I realized, okay, so he gives me a command to do business and he just stands right there with me and he never goes anywhere. And so now you go to work and you realize, okay, he’s present, he’s right here with me. I had better not make his decisions for him. We better start surrendering to the most creative person in the universe and let him call the shots because it’s his company. I’m just a steward. And so when I began to realize his presence was always there, I realized, all of the responsibilities shifted my even the authority. I just need to primarily report to him and see what he wants to do. And so it developed what we call the 2 to 4 second window of opportunity. And that comes from the idea of I just wanted to get the mechanics of how did Jesus do that thing? You know, when he says, I never said anything my dad didn’t tell me to say, and I never did anything it didn’t tell me to do. You’ve seen him because I’ve been walking with him and I wanted to know. Well, when did his father tell him to do those things? That I want to push down a little more detail. Like, did they have a Monday morning, 9:00 meeting for the whole week and plan it out or what? And my intuition was it is much more responsive. It’s just right on the spot. And so if he stops and talks to somebody and a scriptural story, I now believe he probably was told by his dad to do that just before he did it. And so I feel like we only get a few seconds of opportunity. And if we’re not really tuned in, we’ll miss it. And it’s really kind of a sad thing to miss it. It’s so fun and so interesting. So like we had a baker come one time to the parking lot. I got out of the car and he was standing there waiting for me. And so I felt like, there, the clock is starting. I better pay attention to see if this is something God’s up to. And so I get out of the car. He goes, Hey, boss, how are you? And I go, Hey, who are you? And I’m not your boss. And he said, Well, you’re going to be. And I said, What are you talking about? And he said, Well, I’ve been looking for you for six months. I heard about you when I was in jail for begging. And so I’ve been trying to find you, and now I finally found you. And so I’m checking in with the Lord and I get a green light. Yeah. Let’s go ahead and bring this guy in. And honestly, he couldn’t speak very clearly. Didn’t have an I.D. His clothes were horrible. So we went, got him a room, got him some new clothes, got him a shower, got him an idea, and then brought him into the company. And it turned out that the first week he left his position there, like nine teams and he was a team member. We were making stained glass lampshades. And I walked through the factory and he walks over and he goes, Hey, boss. And he starts chatting it up and I go, He said, You can’t do that. You got to go back and can go to work. I mean, you got to be productive. And he goes, Well, I like doing different things every day. And I said, I don’t care what you like. You get to go back, go to work. And then that weekend, he became a believer. And the next week during a legitimate break time, he goes, Hey, boss, we’ve got five teams. Would you let me go to team number one on Monday and do the things they don’t want to do? It would be like measuring copper wire and bending it to particular shapes because there’s reinforcing thing. And then let me do team number two on Tuesday and team number three on Wednesday. And so we let that happen and on Tuesday that the team number one supervisor goes, Hey boss, where is that little guy? He’s sort of a midget. And I go, Well, you don’t get him today because he is with team number two. And he goes, No, no, no, you don’t understand. He was really helpful. And so it developed into a team of probably a dozen handicapped people off the streets that formed a support team. And everybody made more money because the regular workers were more productive. And so they got more. And then the company’s output went up about 20%, I would say. And if you look at over ten years, I think we made $1 million more profit because we hired a beggar. And so I’m looking back at that. I go, okay, there’s the adventure. This is so fun. When you look back and you look in the rearview mirror and you see what God’s been doing and you start recognizing. Those patterns. And it’s just so interesting.

Justin Forman Yeah, it’s fascinating when you’re talking about this bill. And for those you guys that haven’t been as familiar with Bill’s story, if you go through an entrepreneur website, you can see that video we filmed years ago or listen to podcast. It’s a remarkable story of what you’re talking about. That’s not the kind of thing you had in a business plan. That’s not the kind of thing that you scoped out in years. It’s responding to God in the way you talk about that. 2 to 4 second window, I think is so key. And so, Mark, I want to kind of bring it back to you when you’re talking about this idea of miracles, just the scope of how many maybe that pass us by each day. Like what does it take for us to have more of the eyes to see all of what’s happening around us?

Mark Batterson Yeah, well, I mean, for starters, we’re on a planet that’s spinning at a thousand miles an hour, makes one full rotation every day, speeding through space. It’s 67,000mph. So even on a day, you didn’t get much done in all. I’ll just direct it to Justin and Bill. Even on a day you didn’t get much done. You did travel 1.6 million miles through space. So there is that.

Justin Forman Is that my step counter, does that get counted on my phone? Do I get credit for that?

Mark Batterson It doesn’t count on your step. Nope. I you know, and here’s the thing. No one at the end of the day kneels down and says, Lord, thanks for keeping us in orbit. Or I wasn’t sure we’re going to make the full rotation today. But you did it again. Like, why? Because God is so good at what God does that we take it for granted. And I think part of what I want to do is, come on, let’s wake up to the miracles. There was a defining moment for me. I was a freshman at the University of Chicago taking a class in immunology at the University of Chicago Medical Center. And I remember the professor talking about hemoglobin. I don’t think I’d ever heard of it. I’m not sure I knew how to spell it. But every red blood cell as 260 million hemoglobin that deliver oxygen to the trillions of cells in the human body like I want to just bravo like, wow. Fearfully a wonderfully made every single breath, you know, 100,000 miles of airways and pathways. And so I just think the miracles are happening. It’s just we’re like Jacob Pre Bethel. We’re just unaware of it. And what we need to do is carp a wonder, wake up to those miracles. And part of it, you know, Bill, the miracles aren’t just nature. It’s the people that are right next to us, right? It’s the people, the like. The story you just told. When I start seeing people as the image of God is the apple of God’s eye, as fearfully and wonderfully made as God’s workmanship, now I can treat them for who they really are, and that is a miracle.

Justin Forman When is it that we’ve gotten here, Bill? When is it? We’ve gotten to the point where we’ve made entrepreneurship too much of a formula. I mean, this applies so much to our faith, as much it is like traditions are healthy, business plans are healthy. There’s so much things about planning that’s good. But when is it that we have kind of boxed in things we’ve tightened things, we’ve suppressed things so much that we’ve lost that childlike wonder.

Bill Job I’m formulating an idea. Let me just lay it out and you guys can help me shape it some. I think the one problem in the world that if solved would solve all of the problems is the spiritual ails symptoms in the body of Christ. My first business partner died of ALS, so I became pretty familiar with it. And as that horrible disease, Stephen Hawking had a version of it where you could have an incredibly smart mind, a brain, but it loses the ability to connect with the members of the body. And so I looked at the scripture one day that says, for each one of us is to grow up into him who is the head from whom? The whole body being knitted and held together grows with the growth which is from God. And so the picture of the body of Christ is apparently we have a very capable head in position. He can handle everything that comes his way in. Every single member of the body is supposed to be getting its direction from the head. So if I drink a cup of coffee, my head is giving my elbow, shoulder, wrist fingers, all instructions and they have to cooperate. But my elbow is not controlling my hand. My head is. And I just feel like if we measured the spiritual symptoms and the body of Christ today, it would be a pretty low measurement or the symptoms are pretty high. The control of the head over each member of the body 24 seven is pretty low. But if we could change that, I think that would answer your question. Justin. People aren’t getting their direction from the head. They’re getting it from each other and that’s why they begin to look the same and you lose the creativity. Because now they’re modeling each other. And that’s because they don’t have a strong connection with the head. Or to Mark’s point in his book, I think one of the points that he was mentioning is you’ve got to have courage to take the risk, to step out into the direction that the head of the church has given you. And so a lot of folks see the risk and they went out and they go, that’s that’s a lot. I don’t think I can do that. And so we’re missing out on the delivery of creativity from the creator to each of us.

Justin Forman Okay. So, Bill, you hit on something here that we’re just filming with David Kinnaman last week, and it was an interesting conversation as we were talking about this. And you said, is there a moment that we’re in that the church has something to learn from entrepreneurs? When we think about the early days of church? And I’m coming to you, Mark, here with a question on this. Is this idea of so much in the early days of our faith, so much in the early days of the church. We were known for this appetite for risk. And obviously, there are places in the world today where it is very risky and it’s very dangerous. There are some of those things that are physical threat. There’s just a lot going on there. And yet in the western side of things, have we derisked have we lost some of that appetite for risk? And that’s entrepreneur. That’s big seed church, That’s everybody included. So as you think about that, guys like I’d love both of your perspectives in this and maybe we’ll start with Mark. Mark. You’re around entrepreneurs. You’ve seen it. You’re in the marketplace. You’ve lived those moments as a church from the early days. What is it about this moment that maybe we could learn from entrepreneurs in that risk tolerance here as a church?

Mark Batterson Yeah. Well, I think faith is spelled r, i. S k. The will of God is not an insurance plan. It’s a dangerous plan. Like you can’t read the second half of Hebrews 11 and come to any other conclusion. But I think playing it safe is risky. And the parable of the talents, You know, if you bury your talent in the ground, that seems like a safe bet. It’s the break even. But evidently it’s Breaking Bad because Jesus calls that servant wicked, which seems kind of harsh. But, you know, I think we have to be willing by faith. And I’m not dismissing, you know, risk reward ratio. But let’s be honest. We had no business going into the coffee business like we had no experience whatsoever. But God isn’t called a qualified. He qualifies the call and we felt a calling to step in. Now, we did our homework. You know, you got to put together a business plan. You have to do the groundwork and do the due diligence. But I think there’s a lot to learn. You know, I’ve always felt like as a church planter, starting with 19 people 28 years ago, that’s a form of entrepreneurship, whether it’s starting a church or a business. And I’ll say one last thing and then hand the baton to bill for every church we plant. I think we ought to start a business mission. And part of why I say that is it was a $14 million gift from an entrepreneur who has a mind for business and a heart for the kingdom that retired our debt as a church. We need these two things to be in tandem. And so whether you’re starting a business or starting a church, spirit filled spirit lead, and when we obey those promptings of the spirit, now we set the stage for God to show up and show off and do some pretty amazing miracles.

Bill Job Mark That’s a great introduction to one thing I wanted to comment on. I have a seminary degree and I’ve memorized a number of books in the Scriptures, so I had that impression that I knew what was going on, but I didn’t have an obedience component to it. And so one day in China, an American business guy invited a bunch of Americans to a Thanksgiving banquet as a gift. It was just a real gracious act. That night, I went home and I started thumbing through scripture and I realized, hey, wait a minute, I’ve been told how to have banquets. Also, I’ve been told to go get the people off the streets that can’t invite you back, the ones the cripple, the lame. And I’d never done it. I’ve probably taught it about 20 times. And it’s the embarrassment of realizing I didn’t want to take the risk of actually doing what the scripture says. So i went to work and my h.r. Manager is just a wonderful brother and i showed him the passage and i said, have you ever done that? And he goes, No. And I said, you want to. And I felt that excitement that was really so internally rewarding when you step into obedience. And he said, sure. And so we took a restaurant over two days later and we filled it with 28 of our people off the street. And we just said, okay, feed them until they can’t walk. And we had the most glorious time. And I realized that is it. That’s the risk that you have to take to actually do what the scriptures say to do. And even though I knew it and could teach it. So to speak. I had not demonstrated it. So we got into a habit of just doing what the Scripture says. So I was being cursed by six witches one time and I looked at the scripture, says, you know, bless those who curse you. And I used to think they’re cussing me out. And then I realized, no, that’s not actually what it says. They’re actually cursing you. And so overseas, you can have that experience. And so the scripture says, no, just go pray for them and bless them. And so we had people from our factory going out to their houses at five in the morning and walking around and just blessing them. We did that for several months until the curse sort of got off of us. Wow.

Justin Forman Bill, what incredible perspective. I mean, when you’re talking about the real life warfare that we’re going up against, it’s real. And I love what Mark is talking about, is we have to start with these eyes to see. Mark, you talk about some of this in your book, and it’s a really powerful analogy, I think that you talk about just how we’ve lost that edge. We’ve lost living on the edge. Can you share a little bit about that story and how it relates?

Mark Batterson Yeah, it’s a short version. I was in the Galapagos Islands, closest thing to the Garden of Eden left on Earth. And I mean, there were these pelicans that look like prehistoric pterodactyls kind of circling our boat dive bombing into the ocean, coming back with breakfast in their beat. These iguanas that were larger than life with swimming with some sea lions. It was the most exotic lake immersed in nature. And after that trip, I came home and we took our young children to the National Zoo. And we were walking through the ape house and there were these gorillas behind 400 pound plexiglass. And this thought kind of went through my mind. I wonder if churches do to people what zoos do to animals if we don’t try to tame them in the name of Jesus, kind of mitigate the risk, removed the danger. But then I went back to the Gospels. And Bill, kind of like your encounter with that story about the banquet. Like I’m reading Jesus, say I’m sending you out like sheep among wolves. And if you read that literally like that does not sound safe at all. That sounds pretty dangerous. But it’s this idea of when do we think Jesus called us to go to safe places, to work with nice people, to do easy things like this is not the gospel. We invade dark places with the light and love of Jesus. Or like Bill said, we circle people’s homes who are cursing us and we speak blessing. And so there’s something powerful when that happens. And I write a little bit in the book about this idea of rewilding, which is an ecological term. But, you know, I read the Gospels and Jesus basically took his disciples on like a three year camping, hiking trip. They climb mountains, they walk beaches. And he spent a lot of time in the wilderness. And so I think the church could afford a little bit of rewilding and, you know, in the book and maybe spell out some of the natural theology that maybe we’ve lost. The Celtic Christians talked about thin places where Heaven touches Earth, and the original House of God was not a church building or a synagogue. It was Bethel. It was an open heaven. It was a place where when you get into nature, you get into touch with nature’s God. And so you know what I’m trying to do there? Listen, guys, I love indoor plumbing. Hallelujah. I love air conditioning. Like, I’ll take more of it. I love the conveniences of modern life, but something can be lost if we live a very insulated life. And part of what I’m poking at in the book and I actually write about the two foot field trip that God takes Abraham on, and I won’t take time to delineate that. But when he was inside his tent, he was staring at an eight foot ceiling, was putting an eight foot ceiling on what God can do. And God says, Go outside, look up and count the stars. And I think that’s what this book is beckoning people to do, Like go outside, look up, count the stars. The sky is the limit. This is a God who can do immeasurably more than all we can ask or imagine. And I think if you’re an entrepreneur like, man, you got to operate by faith and it’s going to take some risks, but you have to get outside the tent, so to speak. You have to get outside the box. So hopefully the book is just part of spurring people on to that part of the spiritual journey.

Justin Forman I love the language you use, Mark, in the book where you talk about the idea of never lose this holy curiosity. There’s just something about that term. There’s just something about that where you take that childlike word, you put that adjective in front of it, and it just changes it in a different perspective.

Mark Batterson Yeah. And I here’s what’s fun, because, Bill, you and I are just meeting, but I can tell you have that childlike wonder that that holy curiosity. And by the way, it comes from Albert Einstein. I even have his picture hanging in my office because that was page 755 for the biography I read at 21 years of age. He said, Never lose a holy curiosity. And it changed my life. It’s the juxtaposition of those two words. And I think curiosity is a gift that God has given. To us. So honestly, I find almost everything and everyone endlessly interesting, and that’s part of what it means, I think, to rediscover a million little miracles.

Justin Forman That’s so good, Bill. I wanted to throw it over to you because when I think about people that have just contagious, infectious joy and this childlike wonder, both as a pastor and a business people that you guys are at the top of the list because I just love the joy and the consistency of which you bring that energy to it. You’ve done that bill so many times. Everybody sees you at a conference, an event. They seen the video. There is just this joy and childlike wonder how do you do that? In the midst of reports and details and bank statements and everything else that eats us as an entrepreneur, what has helped you keep that joy and childlike wonder?

Bill Job Well, there was a day like in manufacturing where I’ve lived most of my business life. There’s a phrase that says you need to know what to measure and how often to measure it. And the Lord spoke to me one day he goes, just to let you know I am measuring the level of joy in your life and I’m measuring it every second. And I was blown away by the concept. I had no respect for the role of joy. I just I honestly, I think I thought it was kind of effeminate or optional or something. And so I realized when he’s measuring it every second of my life, he’s serious about me having some. And then I discovered if I don’t have it, I can ask for it and I immediately receive it because it’s rooted in my identity with the Father, with Jesus and the spirit. It’s non circumstantial, so I could be in a horrible circumstance and still have true joy. So I developed a joy meter and I go from 1 to 10 and anybody can just close their eyes and read their meter and find out where where they are. And if they’re not where they want to be, just say, Hey, Papa, I don’t have enough joy right now. I need a little bit more. I’m not stepping out of the house and tell them up to an eight. I won’t be prepared for the day. And so I found that to be just a simple, super easy way to actually have a significant amount of true joy. And what you get with that is strength. It’s unexpected, but the joy of the Lord actually is my strength. And the other thing that I notice is the enemy. Let’s say that he can tempt me to be angry at someone and add my joy meter. That gives me up to about a five. It feels a little bit good to be angry with somebody in a wicked way, but if I’m leaving the house at eight and the enemy offers me a five, he is so easy to ignore because I am not giving up my aid to accept what he offers. It’s just a bad deal. And then the other thing that helped me a lot was I did a word study on the phrase kingdom of God, and there’s 140 or so references, and I wanted to see what inhibits us, what keeps us out of it. And there’s two things that were repeated that I noticed right away. One is wealth. It’s hard for the rich to enter, but the simple solution to that is from an identity point of view, just be a steward. If you’re a steward, you cannot be wealthy. And that just takes that whole thing away and it makes it really easy. But the other thing, and this is something that people rarely guess the other hurdle was unless you become like a child. And so I just asked him, Lord, why did you say that about kids? Like, what are you getting at? And he said, Well, how did children learn? And I immediately saw a picture of my elementary school and then a big fenced in playground. And he said, Some things you can learn in the classroom, but other things you can only learn on the playground. And the kingdom is primarily playground. And so you must be childlike to take the risk and try the things like I was in a hotel bus going from O’Hare to a hotel and I noticed the driver didn’t lift my suitcase up and I asked him how he’s doing. He goes, I have a really, really bad back problem. Had been four days ago. And I said, I noticed that, you know, you were reluctant to pick it up. And then I heard the Lord say, Well, you are a Christian. And so there’s just the two of us in the bus. And while we’re driving long ago, he demurred, If I pray for you while you’re driving, I might close my eyes, but you don’t need to close your eyes at all. And so I just prayed for his back. It felt playful. If I wasn’t willing to be playful, I probably wouldn’t have done it. If I had to analyze and understand it, I wouldn’t. But it was just a fun little thing to do. And the next morning I got to the bus to go back to the airport and he just goes nuts. He said, You won’t believe what happened as soon as you got out of the bus. I would just totally healed. I called my mom and said, Hey, mom, this crazy guy in the bus bravery. And I’m just like, This is so fun. But if you don’t take the chance, but if you take it like a child, you’ll be much more courageous than you think you will.

Justin Forman Gosh, I love that. Gosh, I love that. Just that. Take it. Like a child not questioning, just observing it. The wonder, the curiosity of it. Like we’ve been so beaten down by it and it’s been pulled out of us, you know, as some of the things Marx mentioned, maybe it’s been, you know, pent up in us. We’ve been walled in. But like when you start talking, when you start having that conversation, just the joy. I don’t know why is it that we’ve lost sight of like the this our faith is a get to not a got to. Why is it that we’ve lost sight of this like just the joy. It’s contagious, it’s infectious. The got to feel so much an obligation. Why would we why would we go to the got to instead of get to where are we getting distracted?

Mark Batterson Yeah. Well, amen to everything Bill just said. And you’re Joy meter is doing pretty good today, Bill.

Bill Job You boosted up two points when I do. So.

Mark Batterson I love it. I love it. Well, it’s so fun because Sir Francis Bacon, who came up with the scientific method, said that we are God’s play fellows and they’re this grand game that we’re in with God. And I think, I mean, that’s the title of chapter two in the book, Rediscovering that playfulness, this idea of the Hebrew word tov. And God saw that it was tov seven times in Genesis one. This just childlike delight. And I think what happens is, let’s be honest, guys, life. If you aren’t careful, it’ll suck the joy out of you and you can lose it and never get it back. And here’s the challenge. I do think Joy might be our primary apologetic, because if you don’t have joy, I don’t really want what you have. So how do we rediscover that? Well, Joy isn’t getting what you want. It’s appreciating what you have. And part of that then is just today is a miracle. You’re a miracle. Life is a miracle. Eyesight is a miracle. Hearing is the miracle. Everything is a miracle. And we’re right back where we started. It’s the T.S. Eliot. You know, it’s to arrive where you started and see that place for the first time. And so I think Joy is it’s rediscovering the God who is bigger than big, closer than close together, than good. And learning to appreciate every good and perfect gift comes from the father above a man.

Justin Forman What a word. What a word. As we come to a close here, just such a reminder. You know, the other thing I’m struck by is just how fun it is to have these conversations between entrepreneurs and pastors and to come to the table and to have these conversations. There’s so much more that we have alike than we are different. We miss it. We miss those moments as we’re all being driven by mission and always on and always going to all these different directions. But when we sit down, we have this conversation and say some of the very same things we can be learning from to take risk, to discover the joy, to have the curiosity. And it just such a good reminder. You know, I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention to you guys one of the things that we’re working on, we haven’t announced this yet, is that we are having an online event here this spring, in February to do just that, to bring pastors and entrepreneurs together to the same table, to have this conversation of in this crazy time, in this crazy situation that this world is in, when the the typical hero that we’ve turned to in the past may have changed, it’s maybe not as much the musician, the athlete, the politician. We’re turning to business leaders more and more because we know we were shoulder to shoulder alongside each other. And they’re just really it is an opportunity. So pastors and entrepreneurs.org is a website coming soon that will talk about that event, talk about resources, talk about videos that Mark and Bill have participated in and how we can equip the church together. And one of those resources is a video called Dear Entrepreneur that you can find work in, just praying a prayer just over entrepreneurs in this moment. And so obviously, we’re not going to go right into that message in particular. But Mark, could you do us a favor? Just close this time here together, praying for entrepreneurs, praying for this moment, this movement and this conversation and the opportunities for joy that we have in front of us.

Mark Batterson Yeah, be happy, too, Lord. Thank you. Thank you for these creative minds that You’ve given to us. And we want to have the mind of Christ. We aren’t content with good ideas. We want God ideas. We desperately need your anointing. We need the Holy Spirit to give us those ideas. And then we need the courage and the faith to blood, sweat and tears. Put them into practice. And so, Lord, I pray for those that maybe are a little discouraged in their journey, experience a few setbacks, maybe even a failure. Lord, I look back on a failed church plant before we planted. This church, and I’m grateful you’re the guy to dust this off. Picks us up, gives us a second chance. And so, Lord, we pray that you would help us to write better books, start better businesses, produce better films to do whatever it is that you called us to do with the help of the Holy Spirit for your glory in Jesus name. Amen.

Justin Forman Amen. Amen. Great to be with both of you guys. Grateful for your passion. Enjoy your enthusiasm for this. Good to be with you.

Bill Job Great to meet you, Mark.

Mark Batterson Thanks so much. God bless.

Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you, with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. We’ve got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There’s no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at faith driven entrepreneur.org.

God has sovereignly ordained your life and this time to play a unique part in the accomplishment of His purpose. Entrepreneur, God has not saved you to sideline you on this mission. David Platt

In this episode of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast, hosts Henry and Justin discuss the recent conference and share a thought-provoking message from David Platt. Key topics include:

1. The idea that entrepreneurs are positioned “for such a time as this”

2. How current technological and economic trends create unprecedented opportunities

3. David Platt’s perspective on the unique role of entrepreneurs in today’s world

4. The importance of seeking God’s guidance in business decisions

5. Balancing professional success with spiritual growth and purpose

6. The potential for long-term impact beyond an entrepreneur’s lifetime

If you’d like to hear more about the Faith Driven Entrepreneur community groups, go to faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/groups.

240915_FDE_EP311_It_Just_So_Happens_FULLMIX_Round1a_01.mp3

Henry Kaestner Partner. Welcome back. Welcome back to the feature guys for our podcast. We just had our conference. I thought it was awesome, man.

Justin Forman It is so much fun to get everybody together, isn’t it? I mean, just to see so many different people from all over the world tuning into this and yeah, how about you, Henry? But man, it gives me a perspective how wide this movement is.

Henry Kaestner It is. It is. It’s super motivating. It’s just really encouraging. There’s something about this that knowing that there’s watch party going on in Lagos and one in Manila and then one in Akron and one in Los Gatos, California, just all around the world. And there is a truth and common DNA to this movement that I think allows it to really work. And a lot of this this it’s the it’s the low continent partnering with pastors and really taking the agency in and owning it and saying, you know, there’s a common DNA here of the 12th March, which if you’re listening, you may very well know the call to create identity crisis, etc.. And there’s some incredible content that allows allows for great facilitated conversations. But ultimately, this is something that I can then contextualize. I’m a leader in partnership with my pastor church. We can get out there and we can pray through what the different businesses are wrestling with in our community here in the Philippines or in Africa or in California or in Texas. So there’s a part that’s universal and common with the DNA, and yet there’s part that’s always contextualized with great agency from, gosh, we have more than 2400 volunteers now, I think, right?

Justin Forman Yeah, we do. And it’s me. And what a privilege is to partner with them and to serve them. And the one of the things I love most about the conferences, when you see the pictures roll in, when you see the watch party host showing the different places and all the areas where people are gathering and it gives you just this feel of like he said, there’s a there’s a common DNA, but you don’t have to hop on a plane to find this movement. It’s in each of our backyards and it’s been there for so long. And to see it alive and vibrant is an encouragement. I love what you said about, like, churches and pastors are increasingly finding themselves being the host of those conversations, because I think that there’s an awakening happen. It’s taken a long time, but we’ve seen this over the last couple of decades where increasingly pastors are understanding that. And, you know, I know we got a chance to hear from one that we think very highly of. And I’ve just been incredibly grateful for his friendship and partnership in the gospel in this and seeing David Platt, just his understanding of entrepreneurs and the challenges, but also the opportunities, what entrepreneurs have in front of them to be a part of God’s redemptive story. Man, what an encouragement it is. Because I know that many of us were carrying, if we’re honest, a little bit, I don’t know what the analogy would be. Maybe like a dad wound of something that we’re carrying, something that’s hurt us, where we felt overlooked by the church. We felt missed, we felt neglected. And when you see guys like David take up that opportunity to say, no, this gospel, this situation that we find ourselves in, what an opportunity there is for entrepreneurs and men. What a talk it was that he was able to give it the event. And so, you know, one of the things we wanted to do is we always want to highlight those messages that stand out as messages that we feel like is something that really defines this moment or this movement that we’re in. And so we wanted to share with you that talk at the conference. And then we would spend some time talking about that afterwards. So let’s go ahead and play this talk from David Platt.

David Platt Entrepreneur. I want to encourage you with four verses, three declarations, two exhortations and one picture. So we’ll start with four verses. Esther Chapter four verses 13 through 16.

‘Then Mordechai told them to reply to Esther. Do not think to yourself that in the King’s palace you will escape any more than all the other Jews. For if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place. But you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this? Then Esther told them to reply to Mordecai. Go gather all the Jews to be found in Susa and hold a fast on my behalf and do not eat or drink for three days. Night or day. I and my young women will also fast as you do. Then I will go to the king. Though it is against the law. And if I perish, I perish.’

In these four verses. I want to show you three declarations that Mordecai makes specifically to Esther.

One, he tells Esther we are living in a time of historic need. So let me remind you the context behind what we just read. As a result of the exile, God’s people, the Jewish people in the Old Testament had been scattered first among the Babylonians, then they were taken over by the Persians. So the Persians were ruling over the Jewish people at this point. And in the chapter right before these verses, we meet a guy named Heymann who persuaded the King of Persia to decree that on a certain day, all the Jewish people should be killed. And that’s what the king did. The King of Persia decreed the annihilation of all the Jews. Meanwhile, Esther, who was a Jewish woman, was the Queen. But the king didn’t know she was Jewish. And Esther hadn’t even heard about the King’s decree. So Esther’s older cousin, Mordecai, who had essentially adopted her as a daughter, sent her a message in the palace, told her what was going on, and said she needed to try and stop this. The problem was she hadn’t seen the king for a while and she wasn’t scheduled to see him anytime soon. And right before the verses we just read in verse 11 of chapter four, Esther says, Everybody knows that if any woman or man goes to the king without being invited, one thing happens. They die. So for Esther, it would be risking her life to even try and see the king, much less ask him to totally change an edict he’s made. So Esther sends that message to Mordecai. And that’s when Mordecai says what we just read. Mordechai says, Esther, you don’t realize this is the time. Our moment of historic need for all the Jewish people, including you. He says in verse 13, Don’t think to yourself that in the King’s palace you will escape any more than all the other Jews. We’re living in a time of historic need, yet declaration number two.

We’re living in a time of historic opportunity. Esther, Mordechai says you’re the queen and you’re Jewish. The queen is practically the only person who could persuade the king to change his mind. And you, a Jewish woman, are the queen. Esther, We’re living in a time of historic need and historic opportunity, which sets the stage for the third declaration. Esther, God has sovereignly ordained your life, and this time to play a unique part in the accomplishment of his purpose. I love Mordechai, his words in verse 14. Esther Relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews. Mordechai is sure of that. This is the people of God. We’re talking about the people of God who have the promises of God. Promises that He will keep them and preserve them and sustain them and save them. Mordechai knows God will not let his people be annihilated. Relief and deliverance will rise. God has a purpose and He is sovereignly orchestrating everything in the world for the accomplishment of that purpose, including your life, Esther. And that’s when the line comes. And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a time as this. And this is what I love about the Book of Esther.

People have practically criticized this book because it doesn’t mention the name of God, but the sovereign fingerprints of God are all over every page of this story. The Book of Esther is a divine drama with cosmic coincidences at every turn. Think about it. How did Esther become queen in the first place?

Well, one day Queen Vashti just so happened to upset her husband. And he just so happened to cast her out, which just so happened to create a need for a new queen. Enter Esther, who just so happened to be a beautiful Jewish woman who just so happened to find favor in the king’s eyes. And Esther just so happens to be Monaco’s cousin, who just so happens one day to hear about a plot to kill the king. And Mordechai just so happens to tell Esther, who tells the king and the king’s life is saved. Mordechai, His act is written down in a book. But it just so happens that for some reason, he’s not honored at that point. All that leads to Heyman, an evil man who just so happens to become prominent in the kingdom. He’s the one who wants to kill all the Jews, and he hates Mordechai because Mordechai won’t bow down to Heymann like everybody else. That makes Heyman mad. And he decides he’s going to have the King kill Mordechai. Heyman has gallows built for Mordechai and his. Plan is to go to the king the next morning and ask for Mordecai to be killed. But it just so happens that that night King can’t sleep. And he says, somebody read a book to me. And it just so happens that the guy who goes to get a bedtime story for the king out of all the books, he could have pulled off the shelf, he picks the one that tells the story of how Mordecai saved the king’s life. The king says, Did we honor this man, Mordecai? The servant says no. So the king decides that’s what he’s going to do first thing in the morning. And just as soon as the sun rises, as the king is ready to honor Mordecai. Guess who just so happens to walk into the King’s Room? Haman So the king just so happens to say, Hey, man, how do you think I should honor somebody who’s super special? Haman thinks the king is talking about him. So Haman says, put royal robes on him and parade him around for everybody to praise. The king says, Great idea. Do that for Mordecai. And all of a sudden, Haman finds himself robing up the guy he wanted to hang, leading him through the land for everybody to honor. But Haman still got some hope because Queen Esther has invited him to a banquet with her and the king. So he’s thinking he’s pretty special until he gets to the banquet. And Queen Esther says we’ve got a problem. King You’ve decreed the destruction of the Jews and your wife’s a Jew. The king says, Who in the world made me do that? And Esther says. The king is furious. He leaves the room. Heyman falls on his face before pleading for mercy. The king just so happens to come back in at that time. He thinks Haman’s mistreating his wife. And he says, that’s it. I’m hanging you. And it just so happens that some gallows had recently been built. And within hours, Haman says hello to them. Like you can’t write this script.

Do you realize what the book of Esther is teaching about history? God has the whole thing rigged, and he’s rigged it for a reason. God has a purpose. He has promised to save his people for the sake of his praise among all the peoples of the world. And he’s sovereignly orchestrating everything toward that end. And this is why these verses count by mind when I think about you. Because as entrepreneurs, we are living in a time of historic need.

I show you this map. It has three distinct colors green, yellow and red. The green zones on this map show places in the world that have been reached with the gospel, the good news of God’s love and Jesus. Obviously, green doesn’t mean everybody in those areas is a follower of Jesus, but it does mean that disciples have been made and churches have been planted in these green zones, and most people who live there will encounter a Christian at some point in their lives who can share the gospel with them. Then you have yellow zones where there is less knowledge of the gospel. Some Christians, some churches, but usually those are places where there used to be a stronger church presence and a stronger Christian presence. You look at parts of Europe that that would apply to or. These are places where the gospels more recently come and there’s a few Christians, few churches there, but not a lot and not nearly as many as in the green. And then you come to the red zones on this map that show places in the world that have not been reached by the gospel. Places where there are relatively few. And some of these places know Christians know churches, which means that most people in red zones will never at any point in their lives encounter a follower of Jesus who can share the gospel with them. Practically, if you live in a red zone, the likelihood is that will be born. You live and you’ll die without even hearing the good news of God’s love in Jesus. And approximately 3.2 billion people live in the red zones of the world. That’s a staggering number.

And we know from God’s word that none of them can be saved from their sin if they don’t hear the good news of God’s love in Jesus. That’s why Paul wrote the book of Romans. He made it clear in Romans ten. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ, and they can’t hear the Word of Christ, the gospel. If somebody doesn’t share the gospel with them. I do realize what this means. Think about it with me. The world population is continually increasing, including the number of people in red zones, and our outdated models of church and mission aren’t doing near enough to reach them with the gospel. Which means So follow this that there are more people in the world today who have never heard the gospel than ever before in history. There are more people being born, living, dying and entering into a crisis eternity than ever before in history. That’s happening on our watch. Yet at the same time. So follow this.

We’re also living in a time of historic opportunity. So, yes, there are more unreached people in the world today than ever before in history on our watch. But we also have more opportunities to reach them than ever before in history. You think about just travel. Paul could have never imagined as he sailed from one city the next or walked by foot from one to the next. He never could have fathomed a machine that can pick you up in the air, transport you around the world, just about anywhere in a day like air travel. This is amazing technology. How long did it take for Paul to write a letter or dictate it and then have it sent over weeks or months? People would receive it and then weeks or months later reply to it. He never could have fathomed communicating with people around the world in real time, in multiple languages through a device we hold in our pockets. Travel, technology, urbanization. The fact that just 200 short years ago, the world was less than 3% urban and now it’s well over a majority urban and continually increasing. You think about how many of us live with relatively unprecedented wealth in the history of the world. You think about the globalization of the marketplace and the opportunities there are for work around the world, for the gospel to spread through business where we live and to the ends of the earth, where different nations will actually pay for the gospel to spread to their nations on the wings of work. We have opportunities not just for hundreds of missionaries to go through outdated models, but for hundreds of thousands and millions of Christians to scatter in the world in all kinds of different ways, not just by leaving their jobs, but by leveraging the wings of work for the spread of the gospel in the world. And this is where you come in, because God has sovereignly ordained your life and this time to play a unique part in the accomplishment of his purpose.

Entrepreneur, God has not saved you to sideline you on this mission. God has sovereignly ordained your life in this moment to play a wonderfully unique part in the accomplishment of his purpose. You have unique skills, gifts, experiences that I don’t have, and a lot of other people don’t have a you know, how to look for solutions that solve problems in the marketplace. You know what mechanisms are needed to acquire customers? You know how to allocate capital and make bets towards solutions that will work in competitive industries in the world. You have gifts to understand how finances and products can be used and leveraged way. So what would it look like to channel all of that toward what I would say without question is the world’s greatest problem. Billions of people who haven’t even heard the gospel, that alone can restore them to God. As a pastor who doesn’t know what you know or have what you have. I see you. I thank God for who you are and what is called you to do and how he’s empowered you to do it. And I just want to say, in the name of Jesus, play your unique part in the accomplishment of his world wide purpose. Yes. Starting right where you live. Right Where you work with the people around you, and then looking for opportunities that you have in the globalization of today’s marketplace. Knowing that one day I be sure of this revelation seven, nine and ten, a multitude that no one can count from every nation, tribe, language and people is going to gather around the throne of God and give him glory through Jesus for salvation. That will happen. And God has designed your life to play a unique part in bringing that about. So what do you do?

Two exhortations.

Number one, seek God’s face. Did you notice the first thing estrogen when she heard that news from Mordecai? Well, notice what she didn’t do. She didn’t just get to work. She didn’t start whiteboarding a plan or strategizing with her team. She didn’t just run out and start getting things done. Instead, she ran to God himself. Verse 15, Esther told them to reply to Mordecai. Go gather all the Jews to be found in Susa. Hold a fast on my behalf. Don’t eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my young women will fast as you do. Esther said. I’m going to see God’s face. That’s what we all need to do. And this is where I want to remind you, brothers and sisters, that before we’re called to get things done for God, we’re called to get alone with God. This is where I want to remind you that the most important part of your life is not your stats and stories or rates and returns on sheets. The most important part of your life is the part that no one else sees. Success in your life is not measured by your production. Success in your life is measured by your personal intimacy with God himself. And I’ll be the first to admit I’ve missed this. I think about a long season of my life when the church I pastor was growing. I’d written a book that was selling a lot of copies. I was being invited to speak across the country and around the world at various events. I was loving it and I was working hard and seeing all kinds of good things happen on the outside. Everything looked great. But during this long season, my time alone with God was basically non-existent. Sure I could turn on a public prayer and a worship service just like that, but I would hardly ever just meet with God alone to know Him more. I’d study the Bible or to preach it, but not just because I wanted to hear from God. Like that frightens me how successful I could be in the eyes of the church, the Christian culture, even in my own eyes, and do it totally apart from intimacy with God. And by God’s grace, he brought me to a point of repentance. He did so through my wife, who I just asked her one day to try to periodically ask her, How can I love you better? And usually she’ll say, you’re doing great, and maybe you can work on this, but you’re doing great. This day there is no you’re doing great. She said, You work all the time. You stay up late. You get up early, you don’t sleep, you don’t eat healthy. You don’t exercise. And I don’t know when you have quiet time alone with God. And she said, if you don’t make major changes in your life, you’re not going to be around to love me very long. And it was. Needed wakeup call. That led to a host of changes in my life, starting first and foremost with concentrated time with God every morning that, by his grace, has not abated over time and has grown sweeter literally every single day. And you know, it’s interesting. Last few years of my life and work have kind of felt like the opposite of those days. Pastoring in Metro D.C.. The last few years has brought greater challenges and more criticism and less popularity and even mudslinging on my reputation and for a variety of other reasons. On top of that, much closer to home, this season has been one of the most difficult seasons of my life. But God has been closer to me than ever before. I told my wife on a recent date night. I’ve it’s been really hard days, but I can honestly say I know God more. I love God more than I’m enjoying closer communion with God than I ever have. So I told her, I guess if God is the goal, then these are great days. And the good news is that God is the goal. I just want to encourage you. Brothers and sisters, don’t forget that God is the goal. Seek his face about everything and everyone else. Make intimacy with God the consuming ambition of your life. Seek his face.

And second, surrender your life, Esther says in verse 16. Let’s fast and pray. I’ll go to the king, though it’s against the law. If I perish, I perish. What a statement. Esther didn’t know what this would mean for her. Esther didn’t know if this would cost her life, but Esther said regardless. God’s put me in this time and this place for his purpose. So I surrender my life to the accomplishment of his purpose. Brother or sister? Don’t think that you can play your part in the accomplishment of God’s purpose without personal cost. The more you give your life to God’s purpose in the world, the more you and your family and your work will be met with the force of hell. And the harder it will get, not the easier. There’s a sense in which Satan would love for you to do your work while you sit back and enjoy a nice, comfortable Christian spin on the American dream. But you were made for so much more than that. You were made for a much bigger dream than that. A dream that’s so big it’s worth your life. That leads to one picture. I want to show you. It actually progresses. This first picture on the screen. If you look around Jerusalem and around Antioch and around Rome, there’s like a little bit of yellow. And those places represent the regions known to contain Christians. At the beginning of Paul’s ministry, when he began spreading the gospel. And in just second, I want to show you a second picture, and it’s going to show you the regions known to contain Christians. At the end of Paul’s life. This wanted to see if you can tell a difference. Look at this second picture with me. You see that yellow light up? And many of the places where Paul traveled. And I’m not saying Paul was the only person to impact that map. But I would say Paul had a major impact on that map. But what’s interesting is Paul wrote the book of Romans because he wanted some help in getting the gospel to Spain because they’d never heard the gospel there. And if you look at this map, you’ll see that there’s no yellow around Spain. So what should we conclude? Paul, you failed. You had a goal. You didn’t reach it. You didn’t get to the place, accomplish the task you set out to do. Well, before we draw that conclusion that Paul failed. And just a second, I want to show you one more map that shows the regions known to contain Christians within two short centuries after Paul’s death. And I want you to see if you can tell the difference in this map. Look at it with me. Again, I’m not saying that Paul was the only person that impacted this map. But I am saying do not underestimate. What God will do, not just in your life while you’re on this earth, but through your life, far beyond your time here. When you give your life to His purpose as you know what it’s like to invest your resources to see a return. And I want to close this few minutes I have with you with the challenge for you to live for returns that you cannot see, to live for the kinds of returns that last far beyond you and far beyond what you can see in this historic time of unprecedented need and opportunity with the grace that God has sovereignly given. Seek His face and surrender your life to leave a legacy for the glory of God in this world that far outlasts you. You were made for this. And I guarantee you, when you find yourself around a throne with men and women from every nation, tribe, language and people enjoying and exalting God for all of eternity through Jesus, you will not regret living for this.

Henry Kaestner Just and that was awesome. I mean, David’s message, you know, I’ve been following David now for maybe 15 years or so. Ever since he did Radical. I remember when we first launched sovereigns maybe 12 years ago going down to Birmingham medium in person. And this passion that he had that was radical, you know, as in the book and look, you know, on 12 or 15 years on since we first connected and sort of following him here, he’s developed an appreciation for the marketplace and seen it as an instrument to bring the gospel out, but to bring discipleship down. And then then also, as he started to partner with this, with some of the things we’re doing, solving more serious problems, I mean, just this whole full complement of the body of Christ, getting out there, thinking about risk differently and his just the way that he presents the message is so compelling. It’s convicting. But increasingly I think it’s becoming much more actionable. So instead of just like, this is wrong, this is broken, wake up, Gary. Go fix it. The nuance in the way that he brings together a strategy about how to partner with entrepreneurs and investors in the marketplace and where each one finds its own role, It’s really, really compelling. He’s become a great thought partner on that for us, hasn’t he?

Justin Forman Yeah, he has. It really is something like, you know, I mean, I can’t remember how many times I’ve read the story. You hear the story of Esther, you hear Mordecai, you hear all these actors. But I love just how a simple reframing of language can give you a new perspective. And just the way that David will work that end of like it just so happens, it just so happens, it just so happens. And when you see that woven through history. And then you see a pastor like you mentioning saying it just so happens that globalization has happened. It just so happens it travels. And it just so happens that business today is more connected globally than it’s ever been. It just so happens that the church has been about God’s crusade and the mission and in this for so long. But yet entrepreneurs have this pent up demand that’s kind of saying like, Man, I want to get in the game. And it just so happens that the world is knocking on their door more than ever. It just so happens that trust. It just so happens that they’re looking them. I mean, the statistic in that idea and listeners of podcasts have heard us talk about this before that how small business owners today are nine times more trusted than politicians. Some of the people that we look to to solve problems in the past are not the answer of today. And we trust small business owners and entrepreneurs in a unique way. And when you see a pastor getting behind that mission and that message, you know, we’ve talked about this before. If we talked about pride, we talked about that there’s easy times where we can think and whether it’s in entrepreneurship or in the church or everything that’s all about this program, this idea, this thing. But when you see a guy like David saying now it’s about unleashing people to go out, unleashing people beyond a program, beyond schedule activity to wherever it is that God called them, man, what a gift it is to see a pastor say that. Man. It’s just such an encouragement to so many.

Henry Kaestner Yeah, it is. And also it’s just you get super motivated by their extension that stories for such a time as this. And so when you look at all the different complexities in the world and the just you know on one hand 2 billion people living on less than $10 a day, a very large number of them professing the name of Christ and also war that’s going on, but also incredible exponential advances in artificial intelligence and genetic therapies. And it’s almost overwhelming. But God in his infinite sovereignty knew that we would be here as feature in our stories for such a time as this In here, with all the incredible complexity advancing God’s kingdom under His power for his glory and so leaning in as not for just realizing that God saw this happen, knew it, and saw us as being worthy of being on the planet, solving problems to advance his kingdom. In this day and age, it’s super motivating.

Justin Forman It is. It’s super motivating. I love how David just finished that talk where he just talks about this idea of like, You will not regret it. You will not regret stepping into this. You will not regret chasing that big dream that God has for his stepping into this adventure, giving that purpose. I love the map. When you talked about Paul’s journey and he talked about at the end and the perspective that he gave about Paul, and he’s talked about the early missionary journeys and his goal to reach Spain. But in his lifetime that didn’t happen. And yet in the picture, in the thing that he showed there at the conference talking about what happened in the decades, in the years to come in that perspective, that the gospel did indeed get there. And it’s sometimes he calls us to be more of that Moses than the Joshua. Maybe he calls us to the edge of that promised land, but we might not go in and see it. And to think entrepreneurs in their faithfulness in this moment, they might not ever see the perspective of families change. They might not ever see how a city, a community or the next generation might be changing. But man, isn’t that exciting. Isn’t that exciting to think about that perspective? Sometimes you want to see it. You want to be able to kind of like get a glimpse of it, but like to think of something that could be bigger than your lifetime. Bigger than something that you might see, man. Like, we all want that. And I think when you see that laid out in the gospel and you see the moment that we’re in, that’s what we’re living in. We’re living in something so much bigger than this moment. So much bigger than this age. This is the moment. These are the years that are going to echo for decades to come.

Henry Kaestner Indeed, so far, true or not, towards joining us all, just getting down our knees and just celebrating, praising God that we are in the place we are, because it just so happens that we have the background and the experience that we have. And it just so happens that we have this support system and, you know, around us. And it just so happens that there’s a unique time in the market in your community for you to innovate. And it just so happens, most importantly, that there’s a God who loves you so much that he sent his son to die for you. And it’s out of joy and gratitude for that realization that we come and is the motive for us to innovate and to create. So grateful for David Partner. I’m grateful for you. I’m grateful for the podcast and we don’t get a chance to thank them enough, but we get a whole team behind us that makes us look and sound good. And of course, there’s only so much they can do to make me look good, but they at least make me sound good. And I’m grateful to people like Julian. I’m grateful to Richard Bala and Joey Ionescu and just the whole faith driven crowd that makes this happen. And I’m grateful to you. So many listeners have come to me and said, I heard about the podcast from a friend of mine afford it. And so as the Spirit moves you to share this podcast with, others know that that would be great encouragement to us if not them.

Justin Forman Yeah. Hey, one other thing, Henry. I can’t help but leave us with this other thought. It just so happens that guys like David have raised their hands that, Hey, I want to be also about encouraging other pastors that are wrestling through this issue, that are wrestling through this idea. They don’t know how to make sense of it. You know, sometimes we want to tight box and a program to fit it in and sometimes we would just want a safe place to wander and to stretch our mind to think what this could look like. And, you know, it’s been a fun thing in the making. But here in the coming weeks, you’re going to start to hear about an event that we’re doing in February, an online event that is going to gather pastors together with this message and to wrestle through what it looks like. We’re going to have some teaching from Nikki Gumbel, Derwin Gray, David Platt, bunch of other friends that are going to be speaking about this, from pastors to other pastors. But we’re also inviting entrepreneurs to be a part of that conversation, too. And so if you are thinking about this issue and thinking, man, this would be a gift to bring this ministry and this program or this course to our church. This is a chance to do that. So you can attend that event through the gracious support of donors. This is an event that is free and that we are not only just going to say, here’s a conference and experience that think different, but we’re going to give it tools so that if you so choose to run a ministry and a program there in your church, that all of that will be fully accessible to you, no cost and catch when it’s an exciting day in the moment of the movement where pastors are saying something here is happening and it’s time to listen. It’s time to learn and time to wrestle through this together. And so we’re really looking forward to that. So details to come here soon. Stay tuned for that. But so grateful for David and his friendship and partnership and continuing to do that with us.

Henry Kaestner I am too. I am too super excited about February. Partnership with a local church is really key, but it takes most of our listeners are going to be featuring not from ours, not pastors, for you to go ahead and come to your pastor and encourage them to go to the conference in February, but then just generally to partner to reach out to these faith or not friends that are in your church and in your community. It takes a partnership and it probably takes you initiating that contact. So please pray and think about doing that and let us know if we can help you. By the way, online, on YouTube, we’ve got a great video. The Dear Entrepreneur video. Is that great? That’s a great tool for folks to use.

Justin Forman Yeah, great tool. If you’re looking for something for three minutes to share with your pastor and to have that conversation bridge to pieces of a conversation that has a great piece, short clip, I would really encourage you do your entrepreneur search it on YouTube. You’ll find it on our website. That can be a great tool to bridge that conversation and bring this to the forefront.

Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you. With content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. We’ve got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There’s no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at faith driven entrepreneur.org.

I came to the somewhat shocking conclusion that I was one of the greediest generations of evangelical Christians ever to inhabit planet Earth. Richard Garnett

In this episode of the Faith Driven Investor Podcast, join Justin Forman as he honors the life and legacy of Richard Garnett, a faith-driven entrepreneur and actor who recently passed away after a courageous decade-long battle with cancer.

This poignant episode features a powerful teaching from Richard himself, focusing on investing in what truly matters. As we reflect on Richard’s recent passing, his message takes on new depth and urgency. Tune in for an inspiring exploration of intentional living, generosity, and the art of cherishing each moment.

If you’d like to hear more about the Faith Driven Entrepreneur community groups, go to faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/groups.

Justin Forman Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Faith Driven Investor podcast. It is a gift to be with you guys today. There are some days more than others that we just look around and appreciate and have perspective of making the most out of every moment and not taking for granted anything that we have in front of us. And this is one of those days. About a week ago, a friend forwarded a story of Richard Garnett, and it was a talk that he had given some time ago. But we got a chance to watch it and listen to how is it a professional actor of 15 years and TV and film and theater? He went on to be a feature of an entrepreneur and a faith driven investor and thinking intentionally about how to be generous with his time, how to be generous with the things that he was stewarding. And man, there are times when you can hear theory, you can hear idea. And then there’s times when you hear people’s story. And when you hear people’s story in light of the moment and what they’re battling and battling health and sickness and the journey that Richard was on, that somehow those pictures become that much more real and that much more vivid. And last week, Richard went home to be with Jesus after battling cancer for the past ten years. And there are a few messages that I think I’ve heard in the last year or the last ten years that are as powerful as this. So we wanted to share this with you. We’re grateful for our friends, McClellan Foundation and others that captured this and wanted to share this with the movement so that it might be an inspiration and encouragement and a challenge to us all. Let’s listen.

Richard Garnett I’m Richard, and I’m dying. And I thought I’d tell you my story. I work in financial services, and one of my favorite clients, their headquarters is in Brussels. And if you go into the men’s toilets in their offices in Brussels, in front of each men’s urinal is a sheet of A4. It’s laminated for obvious reasons, and it has on it what’s called their lessons from the Loo. It’s basically all the deals that went south where they’ve lost 20, 30, 40, 50 million and the lessons that they’ve learned. So what I’d love to share with you is my lessons from the loo of life when it comes to money.

Richard Garnett I became a Christian when I was 16. For the first half of my life, first 20 years, God called me to be a professional actor. That didn’t involve making a lot of money, you’ll be surprised to know. I was taught to give the first 10% to the church and the other 90% you can do with what you want. Actually, we couldn’t afford orange juice. We couldn’t afford biscuits. Didn’t amount to much. And then in the late 90s, I was in Japan doing some Shakespeare. I’d been away from home for five months and our third daughter was born. And I cried out to God for a way to earn a living that didn’t involve living out of a suitcase. And he very graciously answered my prayer.

Richard Garnett I was asked long story cut short by the chairman of one of the largest companies in the world that I never heard of to kind of help him do his speeches and do his communication. And that started the journey of what we and my team do for the last 25 years. Basically, we help people persuade other people to give them hundreds of millions of pounds. And the challenge of that is I will find myself earning in half a day or a day what I had been earning in a week, two weeks, a month as an actor. What did I do with that? Well, 10% went to the local church. The rest of it, I’d been told, was mine to do with what I wanted. So what did I do? I looked around my church. I looked around my town where I live. I without even thinking about it, I inflated my lifestyle. What had been holidays in the UK became holidays abroad. What was will wool became cashmere. The kids went to private school. We moved out every five years because we could; up and up the property ladder. And after a while I felt a deep disquiet that that was the right thing to do. And.

Richard Garnett You know, Jesus tells the story about the farmer who has excess at the end of the year and builds barns. Can you remember the word that Jesus uses to describe that farmer; the fool. I was that fool. I came to the conclusion that I was a living embodiment of foolishness. Now, Jesus had some advice, actually, kind of at the back end of that story, he says, ‘Be rich towards God.’  But what did that actually look like?

Richard Garnett So I started to do some research. And what I found staggered me. If you take evangelical Christians in the world, 20% of them reside in the West. Let’s call it North America, Europe, the UK, and 80% reside in the rest of the world. So you’ve got the wealthy church and the poor church, the wealthy church, evangelical Christians in the in the West. Guess every year what proportion of our income we give away. 2.5%. I came to the somewhat shocking conclusion that I was one of the greediest generations of evangelical Christians ever to inhabit planet Earth. We give out 2.5% to our local churches. On the whole, they spend roughly statistically 50% on buildings, 25% on the staff team, 10% on missions. Some of that goes abroad. Net what does that mean? That means for every hundred pounds that God gives to evangelical Christians in the West, 25 pence goes outside the West. One quarter of 1%. And this didn’t strike me as fair.

Richard Garnett So what was my responsibility to that? I didn’t consider myself wealthy. I basically drove a Ford Mondeo estate. I had clients who earned 100 million a year. They were wealthy. I wasn’t. And I did the research. Guess how much you have to earn to be in the top 1% of the wealthiest people on the planet. 30,000 pounds a year. I was earning more than 30,000 pounds a year. I was at the top of God’s financial pyramid. If God wanted to fund His work around the world, I’d be the first person that He came to.

Richard Garnett So what did I do? I opened a stewardship account. We upped our giving percentage. And then the question was, Well, who do we give to? So at the time, my local church was raising 4 million for a building refurbishment program. And I can remember saying to my vicar, I’m not sure if God had 4 million spare. He’d invested in that. Now, leaving aside the extraordinary hypocrisy of me saying that having moved from a perfectly fine four bedroom house to the five bedroom house, that was my do wrapper. Leaving aside that hypocrisy, I still thought that was the right thing to say. So we did support our local church, but also we determined that most of it would go overseas because that’s where the huge opportunity for the gospel is and that’s where the massive needs are.

Richard Garnett So where? So my clients are very smart investors and one of their principles are invest in great people doing great things. So that’s what I prayed for. Great people doing great things. There was a girl in our church. She’d just come back from a gap year. She was 18 years old. She went to Romania and in her gap year she found five and seven year olds sleeping off the streets. So she started an orphanage in her gap year. She wanted money. There was money in our pot and our stewardship pot. We supported her. Then my business partner took me to Uganda to an orphanage. I didn’t want to go to Africa, frankly. The idea horrified me. But he dragged me there. He bribed me to go there. And what I found astonished me. I found couples had moved into the African bush at the height of the Aids crisis. Christian couples and they built a house and the house had three rooms. In the first room they put seven beds for the seven orphaned girls they adopted. In the second room, they put another seven beds for the seven orphaned boys they adopted. In the third room is where they lived.

Richard Garnett And I suddenly had this epiphany. I’m not part of some irrelevant subculture of Christians in the UK. Believe in weird stuff. I’m part of a global network of inspirational, extraordinary people doing amazing things, and they could do with my help. And I had enough money in the pot to help them. I can remember taking my daughter there and we went on holiday to one of Uganda’s national parks. It’s beautiful. And when I was on holiday, I suddenly thought, I wonder if these kids have been on holiday in their own country. And I said to Sam, how much would it cost to actually take these 80 kids in their parents community of 150 people on holiday, Probably the only holiday of their life to one of their own national parks. And he gave me the number. Do you know what the number was? It was less than we would spend on a bog standard two week holiday in Europe for a family. There was money in the pot.

Richard Garnett Jesus said something really interesting about money. He says where your treasure is, then will your heart be? When I invested in that holiday, it gave me such joy. Such joy, and it still does to this day. And the more I invested in this kingdom, the more joy I got. More than the joy of a new house, a foreign holiday, whatever it might be.

Richard Garnett And then somebody said, Why don’t you meet a man called Eric in Paris? We’ll meet at the bistro. Never a hard thing to do to have a meeting in a Parisian bistro. I went there and I said, Eric, what are you doing? He said, This was the beginning of the 2000s. I want to use the Internet to convert the French. Good luck with that. How are you doing that? This was the beginning of the Internet, by the way. So my corporate clients were using the Internet, but I hadn’t met a Christian who was doing it. He said, I’m converting the gospel into like a seven minute YouTube video called The Father’s Love Letter. And then strategically using Google AdWords to draw people to watch it. And when they watch it, they can click on a link if they want to become a Christian. I went, That’s smart. So what are you finding in terms of conversion rates? He said for every 100 people who watch it, four people say they want to become a Christian. I went, That’s extraordinary. And what’s your vision? He said, Well, I want to translate it into the other major languages. There are 30 of them English, Spanish, Farsi, Japanese, Chinese, etc., etc. But how much would that cost? He gave me a number. There was money in my pocket for it. And I’ll tell you, I came out of that meeting and I’ll tell you how I felt.

Richard Garnett Imagine it’s about 20, 30 years ago. You’re in Harvard. Next door to you is a strange man called Mark Zuckerberg. And he wanders in one day and he said, I’m going to start this thing. I’ve got a weird name for it, Facebook, but I need some cash. And if you give me some cash, I’ll give you shares in the business. If you knew then what you know now, what would you sell in order to get shares? Be the first investor in Facebook. I would sell everything and wander around in underpants for a year. I’d persuade my parents to sell their home to cash in their chips. That’s what I felt like. My my mindspace moved from. What’s the minimum percentage I can get away with before God? And what is the most I can get for a turtle treasure? Here’s what I think God pays us. And this is chocolate money. Can you see this?

Richard Garnett It’s what you consume at Christmas. All the money we have this side of happiness. Chocolate money. We can consume it all when we invest it globally in what He’s doing locally, regionally, nationally. Internationally. It becomes eternal treasure. And suddenly I was thinking, why should I spend 20 grand on a car when I can buy a bill banger for five and invest 15 for eternity?

Richard Garnett Long story short, I’ll take you to 2005. Our marriage collapsed. I was feeling awful. What was my first response to that? I’ll buy myself a holiday home that will make me feel better. I like to say I like golf. I get somewhere there. And then a friend rang me up and said, Don’t be stupid, Richard. You’re self-medicating your pain. There are better things to do with the money and the work. There’s a devotional I love called God Calling, two old ladies about 100 years ago, Anonymous. When they prayed, Jesus spoke to them. And they write down. They wrote down what He said. And every January the 5th, I’d read this is what Jesus said to them about money.

Richard Garnett Don’t be afraid of poverty. Let money flow freely. I will let it flow in. But you must let it flow out. I never send money to stagnate only to those who pass it on. Keep nothing for yourself. Hoard nothing. Only have what you need and use.

Richard Garnett This is my law of discipleship. I wanted to be brave. I wanted to be brave. I wanted to be like that. I wanted to live without a safety net. So I stopped paying into my pension fund and I set my lifestyle. And then I determined to give whatever the excess was away to invest it in the kingdom. I wanted to do that, but it was terrifying. Every January, I’d feel the enemy say to me, Richard, because I’m self-employed, at the beginning of the year, my diary is empty. Every genre, I’d feel the enemy say to me, you know, this is the year you get found out. You know, there’s the year that nobody’s going to ring you. And I felt Jesus saying to me, Will you give me until Christmas, Richard? If you’re on a park bench at Christmas, we can have a conversation. For 15 years. I was filling that park bench and I’ve got 15 of these paper diaries in my bedroom to prove that you cannot give God that God meets your needs in every conceivable way. And that for me was really, really exciting to be part of that journey.

Richard Garnett And then I’ll take you to 2014. Christmas Eve. I’m in a hospital in Watford and a young man who looks like he’s about 16 is actually a doctor, comes and kneels down and looks up into my eyes. That’s never a good sign, is it? And he says, You’ve got cancer. We think you got cancer. On January the 5th, I was with an oncologist and they confirmed it. My cancer was mesothelioma. It comes from asbestos. They reckon it comes from asbestos in old theaters, actually, and it’s incurable. And they said you’ve got about a year, 18 months to live. At that point, my son, who was in the meeting, had his laptop over and he said, Dad, I found it. I said, What have you found? He said, I found him. He said, Tell him a joke. The oncologist was somewhat surprised. I said, okay, what’s the joke? You said? How do you treat a patient with me so clearly? Omar? As best as you can anyway. Memorable moments. Since then, I’ve had chemotherapy. Two big operations, 60 rounds of immunotherapy, 60 rounds of radiotherapy. Couple of months ago, they said the cancer’s move from the right lung to the left lung. It’s stopped working. So we’re going back to chemo. So I’m in the middle of chemo, so my brains are fog and I have to sit down and. Here’s my thought. The closer I get to death, the more grateful I am. Because I’ll tell you this. If somebody has got a servant, I’ve got the opposite. I’ve been awful at talking about my faith to other people. I’ve been dreadful at inviting people to Alpha or Christianity explored whatever it might be. But the fact that Jesus gave me an opportunity to invest some of the money that He’s given me in the first place. I mean, don’t you find it fairly hysterical that a rather stupid unemployed actor is is employed to advise people, to persuade other people to give them hundreds of millions of pounds? I find that ludicrous. But the chance to make a difference. We have a cancer club at church. It’s not the most popular club, to be fair. I like it. We’ve lost a few. We’ve gained a few over the years. One of my friends, Sandra, is dying at the moment and she said the closer I get to death, everything drops away. Apart from two things. Love the love that God has for me, the love that I have for others and making a difference every day. Can I make a difference? She coaches from her bed. Six people. She’s an extraordinary woman and I can resonate with that. The chance to make a difference is so important to me.

Richard Garnett A young man called Ed phoned me up a couple of years ago, said We found a people group in India that has no gospel presence at all, and we found 15 Indian evangelists who want to go full time to invest their time in reaching the gospel with them. I went, Ed, how much would that cost? He went, all in all, 15 full time evangelists, unreached people group. 12,000 pounds a year. 12,000 pounds a year to change the lives of an entire people group. That really excited me. It still does. Let me end with three things I’d love to say to you. Do you know if Western evangelicals gave not 2.5%, but 10%, do you know how much more money would flood into the kingdom every year? I’ll tell you, 100 billion pounds. That’s 100,000 million pounds. That’s the same that Putin is pouring into the war in Ukraine. Imagine that as a power for good across the West, across the world.

Richard Garnett But I’m not asking you to be more generous of that reason. It’s for purely selfish reasons. This side of heaven. I’ve known very few things that give more joy than being a part of what God is doing financially and in eternity. Actually, we get this treasure. What is this treasure? John Lennox, who many of you know is a mass professor at at Oxford, a lovely Christian man, and he’s written a book on what to do when we invest our time and treasure and talent. And he uses the story that Jesus tells of the dodgy steward. He used money to buy friends. And he says, when we invest our time and our treasure in what God is doing, we. We make friends. We make friends. I have friends all over the world. By God’s grace. And I’m so looking forward to getting to Harvard because we can sit down and I’m going to hear their stories. And the fact that I’ve been able to play some tiny, tiny, tiny, minuscule part in their stories thrills me now. And I know Will through me then I hope that’s part of my treasure.

Richard Garnett One of my great heroes in life is a man called George Mueller. For those of you who don’t know, George Mueller was a Victorian German gentleman who got called to move to Bristol, and God called to look after orphans. And in the course of his life, he looked after 10,000 orphans. And he’s one of the founding fathers of orphan care in the UK. George Mueller life as to extraordinary elements to it. Number one, he never asked anybody for money. And looking after 10,000 orphans costs a lot of money. The only person he asked was God. Every day he asked God and God gave him. 210 million pounds at today’s prices. Now, why could God trust him so much? I think the second thing that makes Muller extraordinary is of the 210 million pounds that God gave him, he gave away to other ministries all across the world. 70 million. One third he gave away. Do you know what Miller’s legacy is? Because at some time he supported 200 missionaries in China. Well, his legacy isn’t just what he’s achieved in the UK. It’s the growth of the Chinese church. Muller’s legacy, 150 years later, is 120 million Christians in China who are there because partly of what he funded. So my question to you is, are you not just serving your local communities and your churches, but are you serving the global church? Because Western money can make a huge difference.

Richard Garnett Let’s take the 4 million that we spent on our refurbishing our church. If you invested 1 million and you gave it to my friend Ed and the charity called 500 K in India. India, you know, has 500,000 villages with no Christian presence at all. 1 million. There would support 500 full time evangelists for three years and lead to the planting of between 1000 and 1500 churches. If you put 1 million to work in Africa, where so many families live on less than a dollar a day, and you gave it to a Christian charity called Five Talents, you’d actually support 10,000 women. The poorest of the poor. To be able to read and write and count and save and earn their way out of poverty. If you invested 1 million in Bible translation because we know without the Bible, you can’t evangelize. And still 2 billion people on the planet with no translation of scripture in their heart language. If you invest in just 1 million, you be able to translate the Bible for a people group of 20 million. And make God’s story accessible to them. And then if you were really strategic and you decided to use the Internet to access the 12 least rich countries in the world, you know what 1 million would achieve if you gave it to Jesus dot net, who are very smart at this stuff. You’d basically, in those 12 countries, enable the gospel to be seen 100 million times, which would lead to 200,000 people indicating that they wanted to come to Christ and to be followed up on line. Think of the difference that 4 million can make around the world. The last thing I want to say is this. Thank you. Thank you. And bless you in everything you have done for his kingdom and everything you are doing and in everything you will do. Bless you.

Justin Forman After listening to that message, there might not be a lot of words that need to be said. I can’t think of many, but I hope that you’re inspired. I hope that you’re challenged. I hope that you’re encouraged. I hope that if you’re listening on this on the drive home, that it gives you just a whole booster shot of energy when you run into the things of your family. If you’re running into the workplace, would it leave all of us with this idea that it’s worth the trade, it’s worth the trade of living a life that’s fully alive, living a life that is staring into the headwinds of what society and what culture might say, but saying we are living for something so much bigger than this world. Many of you guys might have a chance to join that conversation even this week. The Faith Driven Entrepreneur Conference. I pray along that journey that you might find friends, that you might find community, that you might find people and fellow travelers that you can lock arms with and live that intentional life, that surrendered life that Richard just shared with us. God, I pray blessings on each and every entrepreneur as they’re listening to this. I’m so grateful for the words that you have given that you gave Richard and that you shared with us today. May we? We’ve challenged and inspired to live fully a life fully devoted to you. And it’s in your name we pray. Amen.

For every 1000 people you influence, you have 100 critics. Rick Warren

Join Grammy-nominated artist Lecrae Moore, along with Faith Driven Movement co-founders Justin Forman and Henry Kaestner, as they delve into the challenging yet crucial topic of handling criticism. In this insightful episode, our guests share:

• Lecrae’s personal experiences with criticism in the music industry

• Biblical perspectives on receiving and processing feedback

• Strategies for distinguishing between constructive criticism and unproductive negativity

• The importance of knowing your true audience and purpose

• How to use criticism as a tool for growth and refining your entrepreneurial vision

Whether you’re a seasoned business leader or just starting your entrepreneurial journey, this conversation offers valuable wisdom on turning criticism into a catalyst for personal and professional development. Tune in to learn how faith can guide you through the challenges of leadership and innovation.

If you’d like to hear more about the Faith Driven Entrepreneur community groups, go to faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/groups.

Joey Honescko You’re listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. A show dedicated to the movement of founders and leaders around the world who are using their businesses for the glory of God and the good of others. Let’s get into it.

Justin Forman Are you West Coast, East Coast. For everybody listening.

Henry Kaestner Where I am, back on the West Coast, our first full week actually in California for the entire summer. But bunch of things going on. Drop the younger two off at college. The oldest one going back is on the course. It’s on three boys at college. This is not a great year for cash flow, but it’s a great year to celebrate launching kids.

Justin Forman Indeed. Indeed. A new chapter for you and Kimberly.

Henry Kaestner It is. It’s actually a big deal. It is also a time of year where two other things happen. One is that Nikki and Pepper will go through the lessons from the good and bad kings of Judah. One of my favorite things is Phaedra, not us. Going back to these any biographies, if you will, of the Good Kings of Judas. Fascinating. Maybe. Definitely my favorite part of the Old Testament. But the other part is that this is the season where we’re just coming along toward the conference, right?

Justin Forman Indeed it is. We coincided with the start of college football, so we try to make sure that we get in there just at the same time as college football. So, you know, as people are returning, you know, to traditions, to routines. Pick up your college football and then pick up the fifth through an entrepreneur conference. So, yeah, it’s an exciting time. So now we’re getting ready for that here, just in a couple of weeks of September 20th for those of you guys are gonna be taking it live and over probably 220 different locations around the world. It is one of the most exciting days for our team because we get to see and experience the impact and get to be with entrepreneurs and so many different places. I know it’s such an encouragement to our crew just to get out there and to be with everybody. And it’s fun to hear all the stories, whether it’s friends gathering in a living room or people packing out room in a church. It’s just fun to see the different ways that we’re all gathering it is.

Henry Kaestner So today we’ve got a really important topic and we’ve never addressed criticism. I think, I don’t know, 350 episodes of the podcast. And yet criticism is such a part of our lives. We give it out, we take it as entrepreneurs, we get a lot of it, and the Bible’s got a lot to say about criticism. We can unpack that a little bit. But one of our favorite partners on the content side for Fate Driven Entrepreneur and then featuring on Tomorrow for students is Lecrae right?

Justin Forman Indeed, yeah. Look, it’s great to spend some time together as we’re filming for students and for this conference and so excited for people to see a glimpse into his story at the conference. We’re going to be debuting this new story that we filmed with him and Ben and just the story of Rich Records and one that I think is really similar to a lot of people’s entrepreneurial venture, that one faithful step that leads to another, that leads to another. And you’re looking back at a pattern of long obedience and a similar direction. It’s just fun to capture that story and see both ourselves in that where we are today, but also for our kids to see themselves in that story. And so, yeah, we’re really looking forward to sharing that and debuting at the conference. And today we filmed something special, something extra of a little bit behind the scenes of some of the talks that he gave. And he riffed on some of these topics. And as Henry mentioned, criticism. It’s something so practical and it faces us most days. And so we wanted to start off by sharing a little bit of this excerpt from that, and then we’ll pick up the conversation afterwards. So let’s go ahead and play that clip.

Lecrae Moore The problem with bridges is that they get walked on from both sides. Now, I experienced this most when I released my album, Rehab. Secular critics didn’t understand it because it felt so Christian, and many of my core Christian fans didn’t understand it because they were used to me playing the pastor rapper role. Still, I was certain that I was moving in a direction and God was calling me. And this album felt like a new beginning.

Lecrae Moore Rehab caught the attention of some mainstream influencers, and I was invited to participate in the B.E.T. Cipher And this is an event in conjunction with the BET Hip Hop Awards with some of the best young rappers gather to rap 16 bars and show off their talent. Those familiar with this cipher know this can make or break an artist. This was a watershed moment, so I knew I couldn’t just spit out a few lyrical bars like everyone else. Sure, I wanted to have a good delivery, but I also wanted to show everyone that you can be excellent at your craft and true to your faith. At the same time, I eventually just decided to rap what I felt.

Lecrae Moore You probably watching like I never heard of him. A murder him. The nerve of him. Rock n with premiere. That’s so absurd of him. Wait until he split a couple verbs at them. If you really want to hate. Wait, he got the word when I heard him holler. Jesus. The Notorious. No. The most glorious homie.

Lecrae Moore Some Christians who saw it weren’t happy with me using the Notorious B.I.G. Reference to talk about Jesus. It didn’t like me giving a nod to DJ Premier, whose produced for most of mainstream hip hop elite. But I had just taken the same approach as Paul in Acts chapter 17. Look it up and I think you’ll see what I mean.

Lecrae Moore Our situations weren’t that much different. I remember talking with Pastor Rick Warren afterwards. I told him of how I was struggling with the fallout. He said, for every 1000 people you influence, you have 100 critics. And many of them will be Christian. That just comes with the territory.

Lecrae Moore What I came to realize is that critics always have a lot of fury, but they rarely have a lot of facts. Still, critics can make a lot of noise in our heads and hearts and that can be a difficult thing to navigate whether you’re a musician or an entrepreneur, because as much as we want to act like the opinion of other people, doesn’t matter. It does. Why?

Lecrae Moore As entrepreneurs, we’re building, innovating and creating in an effort to make sense of a broken world. We see a problem we can solve or a gap we can feel in Our expression of that is something the whole world sees. Of course, we want our creation to be accepted because in a way it makes us feel accepted. But we’re grasping for acceptance from a broken world we’re trying to make sense of. If we can step back for a moment, we see how impossible this is.

Lecrae Moore Even Jesus experienced the ups and downs of physical acceptance. As Pastor Rick said, even the 12 Christ followers who supposedly knew Jesus best were full of criticism. Here’s my encouragement to you. If you get this now, it’ll help you immensely. As creators, builders and leaders. We’re stepping out into the unknown. We’re connecting dots in new and unique ways, and that can be difficult for some people to accept. What did Jesus do? He would escape the crowds to be with God. He would look to God for acceptance. And when he felt most beaten down, Jesus would ask his Father in heaven for strength and guidance.

Lecrae Moore Criticism is going to come for us as entrepreneurs. Especially as we disrupt the status quo. How we handle it is something we take with us through life, a career, and certainly if we’re called to lead. Leadership is lonely. It’s tough. It can change the world. It can impact people’s lives around us. Good. Challenging and everything in between. Leadership can come at a great cost to us. Handling criticism with grace and humility is a skill to develop and work through. Becoming secure in our identity, knowing where we are and in the end, where we’re going. This internal mindset can give us the confidence we need to step into the arena with a superpower that is uncommon for me.

Henry Kaestner So, Justin, you and I have the occasion to interact with people in LinkedIn and in different circles. And of course there’s our loyal podcast crowd that’ll come in with encouragement, which is awesome, but also some criticism. But what we get, of course, pales in comparison to somebody that’s been nominated for Grammys. And what I love, what Lecrae did right there was he unpacked something we all deal with as entrepreneurs, we all deal with as leaders and really kind of laid out a framework that I think is really helpful for how I think about criticism, both in how I perceive it and also maybe even in terms of how I give it. How about you?

Justin Forman Yeah. And just powerful stuff. I think like, as you said, entrepreneurs were disrupting or breaking mold. Yeah. And I think there’s few times when you think about the church, when you think about entrepreneurs, that when you’re going to turn things upside down, when you’re going to change things, when you’re going to change and go against the grain, which is so much of what entrepreneurship is, that you’re going to get that feedback, You’re going to get some people that are going to praise you and think it’s the greatest thing in the world. And some people that that are going to be pretty loud about what they don’t like. And you know, one of the things I love about what he’s talking about is I think maybe it’s in other places where Lecrae said this is, you know, if you live for their acceptance, you’ll die from their rejection. And I think one of the most fundamental things here that like where he starts us off is just this idea of like, what is our audience? You know, we talk about this all the time in entrepreneurship where we can, you know, slide into different things, slide into different audiences. Who is it that we are really trying to reach? And you can talk about that from a marketing perspective, but it’s really easy to talk about that from this perspective when you talk about criticism is like, who is it that your audience is? Who is it that you’re playing for? And I think if we’re honest, so many of us slide into an audience that we’re seeking the acceptance of the world. We’re seeking the praise of the world, we’re seeking the praise of peers, We’re seeking that more than we’re seeking from the perspective and, you know, appreciation from our Heavenly Father. And in his trite is that my sound, I think we slide into that a whole lot more than we realize.

Henry Kaestner There’s no doubt about it. I think you bring up something there. It’s really important. It’s about who is our audience. And I think that there’s so much here. I think on one hand, I’m tempted to just think just about what Teddy Roosevelt had to say, which is that the credit belongs to the man who’s actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who heirs who come short again and again because there’s no effort without error and shortcoming by who actually strives to do the deeds, who knows the great enthusiasms, etc.. And I think about that. And part of me thinks that, gosh, we should just really shut down criticism because you’re not in the arena and we should play for an audience of one. And yet, as we understand who our audience is, the counterpoint in the Bible would be that whoever he’s life giving correction will be at home among the wise. The question is how do we look to get great feedback with iron sharpening iron from those that we want to serve, those that we want to lead to make our products and services that much more effective. So we can’t shut it down to say, okay, they’re not in the arena, we’re not going to listen to them, although I love Teddy Roosevelt, but how do we thoughtfully kick in the right type of criticism? I think maybe what you’re suggesting is it starts with knowing who are audiences and it be able to listen for that criticism from them rather than just being deflated by all criticism from audiences.

Justin Forman Yeah, I think you can easily conflate criticism like, you know, maybe the proverbial through taking criticism from inside the church or from something outside the church. And we’re talking about people that are in the arena or outside the arena. I mean, it’s easy to go back to like John 15 or it talks about like if the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as your own as it is. You do not belong to the world. But I have chosen you out of the world. This is why the world hates you. And so when you hear some of that and you can see that the criticism that we’re going to get from those people that don’t understand or why they don’t understand our perspective, they don’t understand our frame, it’s really easy for people to give you no criticism when they don’t understand where you’re coming from. I think if we separate, that is what you’re kind of getting at and saying, okay, that’s promised, that is guaranteed. We need to figure out how to deal with that and be winsome in how we share story and respond to that. But then we’ve got to separate the other side of things to say, okay, what is it about the person in the arena that is giving you that feedback? And I know what you’re hearing, but like there is something that when you get criticism and you get feedback from a fellow believer that in the trenches it’s maybe on a similar entrepreneurial venture, there’s probably a unique way that we listen to that a little bit different. Not necessarily saying it better, but like we listen to it differently because there’s our respect and understanding. You feel like you’re kind of coming from some similar wise. But I think the first step I think, is important, as you’re saying, to separate the two audiences and to know what kind of criticism that is we’re receiving.

Henry Kaestner Yeah. Just as a mash up with so many different things, because I also think about considered pure joy, my brothers and sisters when you go through trials. So I think that may be a framework because I love frameworks. Maybe another illustration that we’ve all heard might be helpful here, and that is how we think about and take on prophecy. Where we’re to go ahead and to listen to it and then to carefully go back to Scripture and find out where whatever the prophet says is consistent with God’s word. In this case, knowing that taking on board criticisms important, especially from those in our audience. And if we do so and do well, it will be iron sharpening iron and we will be counted among the wise, as we just learned from Proverbs 1531 there. Maybe we take it on and then we bring to the Lord said, Lord number one, allow me only to hear the type of criticism that it’s helpful for me to achieve your purposes through me, under your power, for your glory. Because, Lord, gosh, I didn’t get sucked into this being about my glory and my glory gets really offended if people don’t like me. So Lord, please help me to mark that. But Lord, help me to see maybe through something from Godly counsel or through your word or through this prayer right now that will help me to understand what just came on board. That will help me to come up with a better product or service and it be better.

Justin Forman Yeah. And I love what you’re hitting on there because Lecrae did the same thing when he talked about looking at the patterns of his of life. And we look at the rhythms of what he’s going through with that. And, you know, I love his language. Ruiz is talking about Pastor Rick when talking about the analogy or the breakdown of like for every, you know, thousand praises you get, you have 100 critics. But then he went on to talk about this idea of that as Jesus encountered criticism because he certainly did that he had a pattern of dealing with it. And that’s exactly what you’re mentioning, of withdrawing to having a moment to reflect, to pray, to ask for discernment in that, to handle that criticism with grace and humility and to walk through it. And so I think there’s a moment that our flesh and our heart, when we hear that criticism, that’s where our most vulnerable. That’s when we like using our football language for the season that we’re in. You’re you’re in danger of being drawn offsides. But if you have that moment to pull away, to reflect the process with your counselors, your friends, your people that can speak and help you see those blind spots. That is the first step because so often times, what are some of the criticism that ends up worse and ends up in the news cycle? It’s the people that responded quick. It’s the people that responded fast. It’s that like it was tit for tat and it just went on and on and on. And then before you know it, you don’t even really know what the arguments about what the criticism is about where it all began. And I think you’re hitting on something so important is what does it look like, the pause? What does it mean to step back and absorb it?

Henry Kaestner Yeah. And, you know, it makes me reflect on something else that entrepreneurs, or at least I struggle with too, and that is pride. And I said at the outset of the program that I’m going through it. There are good and bad kings of dude. I’m in Second Chronicles. I love it. And I think about some of the good kings like Isaiah and Hezekiah, who were, you know, after God’s own heart and they were doing great things, and yet pride crept in. So criticism provides us this kind of like barometer with how we’re doing on Pride, because without it’s kind of hard. I mean, if we’ve got godly counsel and people can speak the truth in our lives, yeah, it’s there. But when criticism comes on board, it’s this moment to say, okay, this is hard for me to hear. Why? And to what extent is it my pride that is obfuscating the real opportunity to get barrier or is this on its merits or what does that look like? And so I like that part of it for me, which is it’s like, okay, this makes me feel uncomfortable. Is my pride wounded? And if that’s it, if it’s my pride being wounded, I probably have the pride problem.

Justin Forman Yeah, it’s such a good thing. I think it’s funny, isn’t it? I mean, like, you can hear a thousand praises and then it’s a handful of criticisms that seem to linger. Like, I don’t know what it is about that, that we I mean, we know that we’re all full and we know that we’re broke and we know that there’s pride. We know that there’s all those things. But like, isn’t it strange how the words of a critic can sometimes linger on and hold on and dig roots a lot longer than other things? Some praise can kind of go in one ear, out the other, some encouragement, whatever it might be. But yeah, I think that’s a good challenge to search our souls to like, why does that criticism hit? Why are we wrestling of that? Why does it stick with us? Is it because we’re trying to carry some perception that. We’re ultimately going to fall short of. There’s just something to that ratio that just it’s so true and it’s so real, but it doesn’t make sense. The math clearly doesn’t add up.

Henry Kaestner Yeah. Well, great topic. I think this is one we can go into much deeper over time and maybe we’ll have some other great gold examples of people like Lecrae they’re really wrestling with. And I think that also it just helps us to understand that we should probably have more content talking about pride, and we’d love to hear from you, the audience too, about what are the different topics you’re wrestling with. Maybe where do we get it right on this episode? And encouragement is always great. And then maybe hear one of the critics and that we will be wiser. You’ll love on us. And a Proverbs 1531 way for us taking on board your feedback and your input about how to serve you. The future of natural our better.

Justin Forman Yeah, indeed. I’m excited about this. I’m excited about everybody getting a chance to hear from Lecrae at the conference in the event what a great opportunity is. I’m thrilled that the dad of three that conversations like this are going to happen with them at a young age. Because I love what Lucrezia talked about there at the end is if you get a hold of this early and I think we hear this in Jeremy Lin story as well, when we film, that is if you can get a hold and you can center and just understand your identity in Christ every day and understand who it is that you serve, man, what an opportunity. So really looking forward to that. Stay tuned for the student series is coming out later this fall in November. But for those of you that are listening, my biggest encouragement is not to walk this journey alone. Lock arms with fellow travelers on this journey and be a part of one of these faith through and entrepreneur groups and watch parties that are meeting up. So if you get a chance, check it out at the Faith of an Entrepreneur conference.org website or at the feature an entrepreneur website and find a location in your area. And if there isn’t one and take a step closer to a conversation, will be excited to see where that goes. You’ll be excited how you can be just a ripple and just a chain reaction of so many people being encouraged. It’s been ridiculously encouraging for Henry and I over the past six seven years to hear those stories of how one person’s faith wants to start. A group led to dozens and dozens and dozens of people thinking differently about how they see their work. So if you haven’t checked that out and.

Henry Kaestner I want to know before we sign off, I want to note that this year we are encouraging and those of you many of you are entrepreneurs at scale and there’s just stuff going on during the workweek to make this hard. But you’re a leader in your community and you can, in partnership with your pastor, say, we’re going to put in a bulletin announcement. We’re going to do it on a Saturday morning, and you both can draw people in because sometimes we just want to acknowledge, sometimes it’s hard to get away. But while it’s September 20th, we’re all seeing a lot of watch parties are going to be meeting after work hours. So there’s more flexibility in what we’re doing this year with the conference than we’ve ever had in the past. And if you say, you know what, September’s lousy for any one of a number of different reasons, but this is something I’d love to do on the first weekend of October, talk to our team, come inbound, let us know how we can serve you as you in turn, serve others.

Justin Forman Amen. Great to be with you and.

Joey Honescko Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. We’ve got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There’s no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at faith driven entrepreneur.org.

In this episode, Joey, Justin, and Henry discuss the new initiative called Solving the World’s Greatest Problems. They address the skepticism around the audacious goal and emphasize the importance of being empowered by the Holy Spirit. They also highlight the role of the community in solving these problems and the need for collaboration and support. The initiative aims to provide clear next steps for individuals to build, invest, and give towards solving these problems. The podcast episodes focus on storytelling and creating a call to action for listeners.

For more information on Solving the World’s Greatest Problems go to https://www.solvingtheworldsgreatestproblems.org/.

If you’d like to hear more about the Faith Driven Entrepreneur community groups, go to faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/groups.

Episode Transcript

Joey Honescko You’re listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Podcast, a show dedicated to the movement of founders and leaders around the world who are using their businesses for the glory of God and the good of others. Let’s get into it. Welcome back, everyone to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. I’m your host, Joey Honescko, alongside Justin Foreman and Henry Kastner. And today we’re talking problem solving on a massive scale. We’re going to talk about this new initiative. We have at Faith Driven Entrepreneur called Solving the World’s Greatest Problems. And this is sort of part one of two episodes, because next week, we’re going to premiere the first episode of the Solving the World’s Greatest Problems podcast. That is much more narrative. A lot of storytelling, a lot of interesting audio elements and things like that. So we’re going to get into all that in just a second. But first, gentlemen, how are you guys doing? How are you feeling about this episode?

Henry Kaestner We’re talking about something super important that gives me great energy and life, and hopefully it’ll give our audience the same. I should note, though, that I am back. All this stuff is top of mind because I’m just back from five and a half weeks on the road to include some great time in West Africa. So a lot of the things that I saw there and the just the success that God is growing in the marketplace, there is top of mind, perfect backdrop for our conversation with the two of you.

Justin Forman Yeah, perfect backdrop. Some of those travels, you know, and there’s a lot of that that’s going to drain you. But there’s also events and things along the way that fuel you. And when we were talking about solving the world’s greatest problems, I know Henry and I are just back from an incredible time at the Christian Economic Forum. Chuck Bentley, there’s such great, great legacy tradition work that’s been done there to gather so many of the movers, in this space, solving problems. And, man, it’s travel is tiring, but yet that is refueling. And what a ministry. What an opportunity it was for us to be there.

Henry Kaestner Indeed, indeed Quebec City to. I don’t know if there’s a prettier, more historic city in all of North America. That’s epic.

Joey Honescko Yeah. That’s awesome. Well, Justin, you just mentioned it. That idea of solving the world’s greatest problems. And I want to kick us off here because we’ve announced now that there’s a new initiative called Solving the World’s Greatest Problems. And I want to give us some time in this episode to go through the ins and outs of all that. But before we do that, we know on this podcast that I can be a bit of a skeptic and a bit of a cynic, and I think that I’m not the only one that’s an entrepreneur that can do that. So I want to start with the title of this initiative, because it is called Solving the World’s Greatest Problems, which is a, ambitious goal. And so I know you guys have thought about this. I know you guys are thoughtful about why you name the things, what, you name them. So I want to give you guys a chance to talk to the cynics like me that are saying, hey, that’s an audacious goal. That’s a big goal. Talk to us about how that’s still possible to seed the church, actually solve the world’s greatest problems.

Justin Forman Yeah, great. Great question. I could say that that’s what happens when you let the marketing team take an idea and run with it, and that’s what you get. But, I think it starts with where it ends. Where do we want this to land? And I’m often reminded of Jon Erwin, the film producer that we’re all familiar with. I Can Only Imagine, also doing some great stuff with the Wonder Project. And some of the content is going to continue to come out, and he’s often quoted as talking about this idea of like knowing your audience. So many filmmakers, producers are creating content from a place of their passion and what they feel. And when we think about this initiative, I think that we’re starting from a place of like, who are we creating this for? And, when we think about this and we think about solving the world’s greatest problems, we’re thinking about those people that are on the sidelines. Who are those people that aren’t in the game yet, right now, who are those people that have been casually observing, watching, or they’ve been stuck somewhere? And when we think about that audience, you know, some of that’s language, you know, I mean, we just had this incredible experience, like we talked about the Christian Economic Forum. There’s other great experiences that Henry and I are blessed to partner with and be a part of Praxis in some of their gatherings. But there’s only a limit, and there’s there’s a limit to how many people can make it to those events and be a part of those events and these dense networks and small communities. Solving the world’s greatest problems is trying to be that bridge. It’s trying to be that bridge to that next band of leaders. Outside of those conversation, maybe you can’t hop on the plane, you can’t be a part of that. And yet you feel this calling in your heart to say, how do we get involved? What does it look like to get in the game? And I think we wrestle through this a lot in the church. Then we talk about this in content languages. We conflate the audiences of people in the church and people out of the church. And sometimes we think the same message can hit the same people. And with solving the world’s greatest problems. We’re trying to, aim for those people that are outside the conversation. And when you do that, the question is, what has stopped them before. Why haven’t they paid attention? Is there language? Is it accessibility? Is it content? Is it some of those things. And I think. There’s so many people on there that have experienced the joy of the adventure that’s on the other side. But for those people that haven’t experienced it, haven’t taken that step. The question I’d have is it does it feel more like a duty and an obligation more than this joyful, fully alive journey? And I think people want that quest. They want that journey. They want that. You know, Lord of the rings adventure where there’s. It’s dangerous, there’s grit, it’s risk and all of that. And, when you think about that and you think about language and we think about the entrepreneurs and investors we’re trying to get in the game, and you think, what do entrepreneurs investors do? They solve problems. And when you think about the pains of the world, the opportunities of entrepreneurs, investors think it’s born a lot about this language. And this idea of the world has problems. We all sense it. We feel it. We turn the news on, how do we connect that and make it easy for entrepreneurs and investors to see themselves in that story? And when you talk about languages solving problems, nobody does that more. And nobody does that more often than entrepreneurs investors.

Joey Honescko Yeah, I love that. And I love that idea. Henry, I’ve heard you talk about this where, you know, it’s a big goal, but to some extent, I’ve heard you say the idea that it’s a big goal, but we serve a big God who does big things. And so it’s not just that we’re shouldering the load. The entrepreneurs and investors, not that they’re shouldering the load to solve these problems, but that they’re actually empowered by the spirit. And, Henry, I’ve heard you talk about that quite a bit. So I want to give you a little space to to kind of elaborate on that or add anything else you have on just this concept of solving the world’s greatest problems.

Henry Kaestner Yeah. Let me start off by saying I’ll join you has been a little bit of a skeptic or a cynic on this, at least in terms of the titling. When we first started talking about the title, I didn’t like it. We don’t solve problems under our own power, and if we solve them for our own glory, we’re in big trouble. Were redoing the Tower Babel all over again. And so the the tagline that accompanies solving world’s greatest problems has to be under God’s power and for his glory. I’m always a little bit skeptical when somebody comes in and says, hey, join us and change the world. It makes it sound like we can do that as humans and we can’t. We are in a battle and it’s not against flesh and blood. It’s a spiritual battle, and we stand no chance of being able to solve any problem or enter into any battle and emerge victorious without this full armor of God, sword of the spirit, shield of faith, breastplate of righteousness all complement. And yet. I also really like a title that it kind of explains what you’re doing, and we want the body of Christ to get rallied behind a cause that’s big and it’s bigger than them because there is a battle. There is a. Just a real opportunity to get out there on something bigger than ourselves. And, you know, we see wars at different places around the world right now, and we see people that are dying and willing to give up their lives for a much lesser causes than God’s power and God’s glory in his kingdom. How do we tap into that as a church, in a church that hasn’t been known as being very active on the front lines for quite some period of time? You know, to be clear, massive exceptions all around the world, the body of Christ courageously leaning in. And yet we want to be rallied to a cause and almost look, well, not almost just to be that cultural. Exemplar like we were back in the 1800s and early 1900s when we were building schools and churches, of course, but hospitals all around the world, we were different. People said, you know, I want what they have, right? Start talks about that. That’s when the body of Christ grows. So let’s rally people to a big issue, a big opportunity and saw be involved under God’s power for his glory in solving the world’s greatest problems because many of them. Can be solved. There are things we can make massive progress. The church is doing that. If we can rally more of us together to do it in community, it can be awesome. So let’s call it what it is solving world’s greatest problems. But let’s be clear that with ourselves, we can’t do anything but with the power in the form of God and His Spirit, we can.

Justin Forman Yeah. I mean, what a great place to start. And there’s no better place to be grounded is we have to recognize God calling us to be faithful and to step out. But this is all him. This is what he chooses to do, how he might choose to work. But I think I’ll push back a little bit on the skepticism side of things. I think there’s a skepticism or like, should we call it this big audacious call? Should we call this? And I’m wondering, where does that skepticism come from? And I think if our taking a stab at it, I think it’s because we bombarded with this idea that we can’t the world’s tallest, we can’t, you know, media, whatever it is, the airwaves that are being controlled are telling us that we can’t you know, we were talking about this analogy at a Christian economic forum. And, when we think about this initiative and we think about content, some of the first steps, like what’s the why and what’s the strategy? And I was reminded of this when we traveled, a couple months ago. We went to northern. So the continent and they’re in Europe, in Brussels and Amsterdam and, you know, on the flight over there, and got hooked on this, docu or the series, if you guys might be familiar with Masters of the air is kind of the follow up to Band of Brothers. It’s on Apple TV, and it follows the the path of the Hundredth Bombing Group. And what they did starting off in England, how they were bombing, continental Europe, trying to prepare for the invasion. And then they talked about this idea and they said, you know, we didn’t make the decision to move forward with Normandy. We didn’t make the decision to set foot there until we had air superiority, until we had control of the skies, because if not. You know, we’re sitting ducks and there’s no chance that we can really kind of accomplish that. And I think that some of the skepticism that’s out there is because the airwaves and we don’t have air superiority, we don’t have this in the church. We don’t even have it. We certainly don’t have it outside in church. And I’m wondering if we even have an inside the church. Have we convinced ourselves that it is possible? Have we seen enough stories to know that it is possible to find light breaking through this darkness? And so we’ve experienced that. We’ve all experienced in in different levels. When you hear the personal stories, we’ve seen that the videos we’ve seen, you know, see him re in the work in Singapore and tight end worth that. They’ve been doing it green hoping you know Anthony Tan and grab and move Terry Thomas and movement schools with Cassian. We see all of these places. But I think what’s missing is is we need a platform. We need a place in a space where we can see the church is winning and say, yes, this this is the kind of thing that makes us proud of the home team. This is the kind of thing that makes it things as possible. So yeah, it’s not a surprise to me that I think most of us are starting from a place of skepticism. But I think our first step is to recognize there are people all around us, both on the other side of the world and in our backyard, that are showing that it is possible, if you step out, that it is possible, and that combined and collectively, the church is winning a whole lot more than we think.

Henry Kaestner Yeah. God’s kingdom is advancing. Jesus came to announce the coming of the Kingdom of God. And, I think there are a lot of different folks that might think about this differently theologically. But, you know, when we pray, Lord, your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. I think that he might have us. I believe he has has been instruments of that under his power for his glory. And if his kingdom is advancing, we are in the process of solving those problems, building toward the New Jerusalem and and making all things new. And so let’s, I love what you talked there about their supremacy part. I think that that’s, and let’s go to the body of Christ and encourage him like we are show, let’s show the places where we’re winning and so that people and feel really good about the home team.

Justin Forman Yeah. And what I thought here and then I want to ask, kind of reverse the reverse the conversation here on Joey. I think one of the things when we talk about language of this initiative is that I think that we’ve gone as far as duty and obligation is going to take us in the church. I think we have to move into the place where we show the upside down adventure and the joy that comes with it. And I think part of that is a language conversation. I mean, we can look at the last 20 years, we can look at the last generation, the church. We can look at everything there. We know duty and obligation has either a low glass ceiling or it’s leading us in decline. And so when we think about the language of this, I think, yes, it’s audacious. Yes. It’s all what God wants to do with it, how he might take it, how he might use it. But the language that we use to rally people to it. How do we cut away from obligation and duty and more to the joy that is in that adventure? And so, you know, I know we think about that from a story standpoint. But I’m going to flip this here to you, Joey, because, you know, from FTE and all the different podcasts and everything here, you’re instrumental in meeting us into the creativity and the new initiatives of it. I want you to talk for a moment. I mean, we’re announcing this new initiative, but there is a different podcast. There is a different way that we’re going to go about doing that. And maybe if you could speak to kind of some of the early episodes that you’ve been leading us on and working through and kind of what’s going into the style and the approach to it all.

Joey Honescko Yeah for sure. Really cool to get to tell these stories. And I think to your point, Justin, of the churches winning, we are seeing those wins happen. So even for a hyper skeptic person like me, it’s actually quite rewarding to hear the stories of the church doing these incredible things. And what both of you have mentioned, that some of these problems, all these problems are actually solvable, and we’re seeing people actually solve them. So, the first one, we called it episode zero, and it was kind of a precursor to the whole initiative. And it tells the story of Dana and Bill Wicker, men who are two individuals that are a lot like many faith driven entrepreneurs and investors. They, came into some some wealth that they weren’t expecting necessarily, like many do whenever there’s a liquidity event or, an inheritance in their case. And they really wrestled with the question, what does it mean to handle this? Well, to steward this well, as Christians, as believers, and they really started navigating into how they could use their income, by building and investing and giving, not just giving charitably, but giving charitably and also investing that capital and also using it. They do an angel network and all these different things, and none of that’s prescriptive or presumptuous. And we’ll talk about that later. But, that’s kind of episode zero. And then episode one really kind of focuses on, Mark green, who many people might be familiar with the green family, hobby lobby model Mart was the was the one who started Mardell when he was like 19 or something in Oklahoma. Really cool story. But as he went on, he also felt this need to do more. He had a successful business. It was doing well, but he was like, man, what do I want to be remembered for? What kind of impact do I want to have on the world? And he really got passionate about Bible translation, and that opened his world to all sorts of things that he began to build, to invest and give towards. So all of those are kind of the overview. We tell these stories in a very narrative form. It’s kind of like Guy raz, how I Built This meets, NPR’s Radiolab meets This American Life. So it’s sort of a three act structure. It’s real creative. There’s sound effects and music, and it’s a lot of fun to produce. So there’s that aspect of it, too. And then the third thing I’d say, and I want to get y’all’s thoughts on this as well, is a key part of what we try to do with those episodes is create a call to action. And Justin, you were talking about that idea of the accessibility and the idea that, for so many people, this is something that they don’t know how to start. And so I’ve heard you use the language of trying to create those avenues. That is simplicity on the other side of complexity, because there’s tons of stuff to navigate. And so one of the things we’re trying to do with the podcast and the initiative as a whole is give people these really clear next steps and next directions. And so, Justin, you want to talk a little bit about that. Yeah. Just that. Yeah. Yeah. Access.

Justin Forman You know, as we get into that, one of the things I would say is I really appreciate Joy the way that you bring like these cultural illustrations, I think entrepreneurs and investors understand. And I think the way that we’ve talked about topics like you could say, like Bible translation, you can talk about in a certain way that only captures the people that are already thinking about it or the way that we’ve talked about it for the last 20 years, and only captures the people that are left. What I love about the podcast and episodes you’ve shared with the team is, is that you’re presenting it in a way that entrepreneurs and investors can understand, like that first episode that that coming up or actually may have just released is this idea of Coca Cola and talking about the market share that it has and how like there is what is it, less than 10% of the world that doesn’t even I think that using your language recognize the gospel, the fizzy drink. And you know, when we see that market share as entrepreneurial investors, we know what that means. We know the downstream ramifications of that. We know what it means when your brand has had that kind of penetration. And then you compare and contrast that with the gospel itself and think, I mean, how is it that a fizzy drink is more known than the gospel that we carry? And so I love that element, but I’ll, I’ll dive into kind of what you framed up as. We want to make sure that those episodes leave people with a place of action. You know, we often talk about it here in Texas. There’s not many pep rallies without a football game. But I think to your point, what is the greatest barrier now? There’s many. But I think one of the barriers I know Henry’s passion about this is that where question when you get launched in the where question, it can be paralyzing when you’re trying to find the best places to build or to invest and to give in. You know, we were talking about this the other day. In relation to Google, what it was 25 years ago, about 25 plus years ago, that Google started. Somebody had a time capsule of a screenshot of Google and said, this is an index containing 25 million pages, and it was their first, screenshot of their, their search engine. And in parentheses, they had to even say soon to be much bigger because they were saying, like, there’s more information coming. But the point of that little subtlety was there’s more and there’s more and there’s more information. I think it was at dinner last night that, I don’t know, one of the kids was saying that there was like 2.5 million videos uploaded every day. And you just think about just how we’ve moved from a place of like scarcity on information to being so overwhelmed that it’s paralyzing. You know, I think that we saw this even recently when people are talking about the Giving Pledge and they talked about the way it motivated people to generosity, but people are getting stuck. They’ve convinced that they need to do something, but they don’t know where to give. They don’t know where to invest. They don’t know where to deploy this capital. And so, led by Andrew and our team and others across the movement, a collaboration of family offices, ministries. Working through it, we’re endeavoring to say, how can we highlight some of the best first steps? It’s not the only step, but how do we highlight some of those best first steps on each one of those? So when you go in there and you find out about, you know, solving a problem like trafficking, you’re going to see places where you can give some great ministries like International Justice Mission and work that you can give to, but you’re also going to find some of the best places where you might invest and hear about, you know, the Freedom Fund with Eagle Venture and ways that you can invest into businesses that are trying to root out trafficking all around us. And so I think you’re right. We have an overwhelming task ahead of us. There is an overwhelming amount of information out there. And yet I think there are tools coming of age and there’s collaborations happening where we can find the simplicity on the other side of complexity.

Henry Kaestner Amen. Absolutely. And I think that we can’t reinforce the concept of big enough. It’s a three part approach and strategy to solving the world’s greatest problems. And when God calls us, I don’t think he compartmentalize our vocations from our giving, from our investments. He just wants us to know him more fully and then be captivated by the injustice or in addressing poverty. That’s in the world. And it’s Galatians 210, let’s take care of the poor, the very thing we should be eager to do. But each of us plays a role in that, and for many of us, it’s to build something to solve that problem. There are thousands of phenomenal, faith driven entrepreneurs that are leaning into opportunities, solving problems, and that’s where much of our audience is going to resonate with the stories that we highlight there. Others, of course, are going to be thinking about giving. And we know that giving is a big place, and we know that it’s more blessed to give than receive. And we see over and over in Scripture about how giving is important. And yet we also know that there’s a lot of great research talking about where giving might do more harm, both to the recipient and to the giver. And there’s toxic charity and that aid. And so giving needs to be done thoughtfully. And we’re going to try to wade into that. I mean, these are very complex issues. We’re not going to be able to be the authoritative source on everything, but we’re going to try really hard to find those that have given their lives to investigating these problems that are as close as you can come to as an authority on the problems in the world. But before we go too much further in it, gosh, I don’t think on every podcast episode I try to present myself as a resonant theologian, but we also need to acknowledge the fact that I know what the biggest problem is in the world, and we could just stop the whole ministry right here. The biggest problem in the world is me. The biggest problem in the world is sin. And, gcam. What I’m doing here, I’ve got to give proper attribution. Is G.K. Chesterton in Orthodoxy. I am the biggest problem. Sin is the biggest problem. And then there’s a real spiritual battle. So we have to be conscious of all those things, but we’re gonna endeavor to do just that. We’re going to try to find this simplicity on the other side of complexity in such a way that will draw people closer into a relationship with God as they get down on their knees and say, Lord, show me the problems you want me to be involved in solving, and then allow me to participate in solving those problems. In spite of the fact that I’m an imperfect vessel. May I shine your glory through me as I get to work on some really cool projects with others together and the community of Christ.

Joey Honescko Yeah, it’s a good, G.K. Chesterton quote. I did want you. You mentioned the big concept there, Henry, and you kind of talked about it. The idea of build, invest in, give. Can you unpack just for a second that framework. And we talked about there are three legs of a stool. They’re not different things. They often overlap. So can you just give a little bit of a framework for what we mean when we talk about big or build invest in give and how they relate to one another?

Henry Kaestner Sure, absolutely. So weird. I think that we’re called to love God as we understand the value, the gift of life, giving us our our response to that is that then come in to worship God as the one leper out of the ten and and in a loud voice just proclaim his glory and then say, I want to bring all that I am and all that I have, since it’s all yours anyway. To the altar is my meaningful form of worship, and for a lot of people, what they have is entrepreneurial ability. They’re natural problem solvers. They get out there, they find a minimum viable product, they get product market fit, they lean into the problem to be solved. They they get and inspire and encourage others to join a team to solve the same problem. They work well with their customer and with partners and vendors and and that’s what their gifting is. And so many cases, with challenges, there needs to be a new entrepreneurial, just. Solution to what we’re looking at. And in some cases profits can come alongside it. And in other cases, it’s not the primary motivation being to to solve a problem or lean into or find an outcome that needs to be addressed. So that’s that’s the build and that’s much of our legacy. We started life off as faith driven entrepreneur. The largest of the different ministries were involved in now reaching almost 100,000ft or not friends around the world. So of course we have a passion towards continuing to serve and inspire and encourage that constituency, those people. And then when you look at invest, you know the origin behind the faith driven investor ministry that we have that’s been around now for about five years, also with content and community, is providing like minded capital alongside those entrepreneurs being able to pour our lives in in terms of being a great mentor or a coach. And of course, bringing in the type of capital allows those entrepreneurs to have, in many cases, the the fuel that they need to accomplish all that God has set out for them to do. And then giving will continue to be a big part of what we always do when we come to understand that it’s all God’s anyway. Giving is something that brings us closer to knowing God in a way that’s different than building and investing. As entrepreneurs and investors, when we build or we invest, it’s incredibly powerful. And because it’s done in the marketplace where 39 of the 40 miracles in acts happen. It does. It deserves top billing. And yet there’s something about giving, giving it up. Freely given, which means we can’t lay claim to it anymore. We’re not going to be the entrepreneur that’s going to be talked about in newspapers and heralded by our peers, and we’re not going to get the type of investment return that sees our pile continue to to rise. When we give, we’re giving it up in a way that allows us to be freed from the shackles that might otherwise hold us back in the spirit of mammon. And so, because our biggest and highest use is to know the God of the universe and his love for us the most, we want to get rid of the things that would otherwise entangle us. And finances are so oftentimes our case, and then get it in the hands of people that can address those real problems. And in many cases, that’s relief. And it’s coming in after disasters. And in other cases it’s it’s investing in giving to education. And we need to despite the fact there’s lots of research out there about how giving can be done poorly, giving can also be done really, really well. So we need to wade into that too.

Justin Forman Yeah, I think the way that like that’s such a deep way of looking at it, I, I mean I think oftentimes I think a cultural way I would equate it to is we spend so much time saying, who’s the greatest basketball player in all time? LeBron, Kobe, Michael, which one it is. If we wanted to step into being a moment of prescriptive, I would have my favorite. And I would agree with my friend Henry here who just voted. So now that that’s clear. While we might like Michael, it all changes when the conversation change. Changes from not who’s the best player, but what if they were playing on the same team? And I think that’s what this site is so much about. It’s like, what does it look like if the people that are called the build, the people that are called to come behind and invest, the key people that might come well ahead of time and seed that we’re behind with giving. What if all of that was on the team? What if we change that conversation? There’s no doubt you’d look at that and say that’s most dominant three on three team you’ve ever seen. If you put those three together. And I think that’s what we’re on the verge of or something like this is where the world waking up to saying each has its place. There’s an order, there’s a sequence to it. But also like, how do we actually do it? And I think that while we’re starting with content and, you know, we can talk about maybe some of the community things that we hope will come out of it. We want to be clear, to say that this is not going to just stop there. Whether it’s putting the light on, giving, collaborations, investing, collaboration, other things, funds that are happening, we want to make sure that people find ways to get into the game. And so, that might be coming alongside some of the giving collaborations that are out there that might be highlighting some of the funds that already exist, or it might mean inspiring people to go start a new fund or a new giving collaboration. But we are very convinced that we have to make it easy. We have to make it accessible for people to take that next step. And so while we’re not there today, and there’s still a long way to go to get to that, it’s going to place, it’s going to be a place where we’re going to experiment, we’re going to test some things. And as Henry said on some of the videos, more releases, it is early and we will make mistakes. No doubt we are going to make mistakes. That’s what entrepreneurs and investors do. You try, experiment might fail. You’re going to retool and you’re going to get back out there. But we need to make sure that we’re cracking ways, cracking the code on ways for people to get in the game and not just talk about it.

Joey Honescko Yeah. That’s great. Think, one one thing that you mentioned there, talking about playing on the same team in collaboration. You also mentioned that idea of community and at faith in an entrepreneur and faith driven investor. Both parties are very passionate about not just content, but content and community. And bringing those people together. So let’s stop just for a second about the role that community will play in solving the world’s greatest problems, not just in the initiative, but even in all of the episodes that we’ve, already produced for the podcast community was such a key part of the giving story, the investing story, the building stories. Like no matter who it was, they needed other people to help shape them, help them to think differently about it. So just Henry, maybe you start us off, just talk about the role that community plays when we are solving the world’s greatest problems. And then maybe, Justin, you can come in and talk about the role community will play in the actual initiative itself.

Henry Kaestner Anytime Jesus sent people off, he sent them off in twos. And we’ve got to do this in community. And, and and it’s much more fun. But and you know so I talked about Galatians 210 before, which is to take care of the poor, the very thing we should be eager to do. Ephesians 210 talks about the fact that we each have different things to bring to the equation. When we can be brought together in a community of others, and somebody has one perspective and somebody else has a different experience, and someone has got some, some drive and some organized organizational power, and somebody else has got the power of intercession. When you bring together a community of people focused on solving a problem that’s unbelievably dangerous, and it’s dangerous from the forces that would otherwise hold back. The solving of problems of, of injustice. And so that’s one of the things we’ve learned as part of our DNA and fate driven, not foreign, fate driven investor. In each case, we highlight, content, great storytelling. And then it’s really community come from the content Justin says is very, very well come for the content, stay for the community and people have. And we expect the same thing here.

Justin Forman Yeah. I think, what I would add on here is I know we’re coming to a close is I think that there’s an element when you think about community. That’s been one of the greatest challenges in the church for years is trying to find assimilation. And how do you get people together, oftentimes is broken down by your zip code or the age of your kids, and those are meaningful things. Don’t get me wrong, there’s tons of reasons why some of that works, but I think another one that’s undersold at times is when you find some people that share a passion for a similar problem, but then want to find a plan and get get going to find it. And, you know, there’s a great ministry out there and halftime and we’re partnering with them and this and in different other areas of the ministry to say, what does it look like for people to intentionally really get clear and discover the problem that you feel called to solved, but then to get free from some of the things that might be holding you back, but then to get going and take those steps of getting in the game with friends. You know, we were just at Christian Economic Forum and Chuck Bentley, one of the phrases he says is, you know, so often you can look throughout history and some of the great problems of the world were solved by friends coming together. So therefore go and make friends. And I think that that is really. The spirit of this idea of community is to find those people that share that passion for the similar problems, and to go and make friends and have fun doing it.

Henry Kaestner Indeed.

Joey Honescko Yeah. That’s great. Well, thank you both for kind of giving an overview of the initiative, talking about the heart behind it. It is like you guys are both said it’s an audacious goal, but it’s something that is possible because of the Holy Spirit. And so he can do incredible things through his willing church. And so, listeners, check out the website. That’s probably the best thing to do from here solving the world’s greatest problems. Dot org you can navigate there are, 30, 30 problems. Yeah, 30 problems, seven categories of these problems. You can navigate through each one individually and see stories that inspire you to do something, give you some great next steps on places to give or potentially invest. You can see tons of videos, listen to the podcast, and then start thinking about how you might want to get involved in that community as well. So Justin Henry, appreciate you both joining and giving a little bit of overview for this joy.

Henry Kaestner Grateful for you. Thank you for helping, making it happen and leading. And great to be with you guys.

Joey Honescko Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you. With content in community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn’t have to be. We’ve got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms, and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There’s no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at Faith Driven entrepreneur.org.