— by Jerry Meek

Peter Drucker once said, “There is no success without a successor.” 

So many businesses don’t have a successor, but it’s arguably one of the most important things any business leader can plan. I am blessed to say that my son, Jeremy, is more than just a successor. He is a faithful, qualified, and committed business partner at Desert Star Construction (DSC), and the two of us have been on a healthy journey of leading together. 

DSC was born out of the carpentry business started when I partnered with my dad at 19 years old. Instead of competing with each other, we completed each other. Having the right person as a business partner made all the difference. We worked long hours and remained focused on doing our best daily. This small carpentry business grew into a general contracting business that builds large estate homes for the wealthiest people in the world.

Since DSC has been a family business for three generations, I often hear the question, “How can you navigate a family and business relationship without problems?” 

Regardless of the size of your business, it’s possible to work well with a family business partner if you prioritize clear communication and a humble, Christ-like relationship. Here’s what I’ve learned over the years.

My Four Core Values for Working with a Family Business Partner

I believe that trust, communication, desire, and humility are everything when looking for the right business partner (family business partner or not) and are the main components that have led to the success of our partnership.

Trust

Trust must be the foundation of any partnership, especially when it comes to business partnerships with your family members.

Ultimately, trust has been at the foundation of our relationship. I had to trust Jeremy enough to believe he was the right business partner. I also had to trust him enough to let go of control and continue passing him responsibilities in our business. At one point, I had to get four surgeries around the same time, resulting in a three-month recovery period. Because of the trust that Jeremy had earned, he fearlessly led the entire time I was away. When I heard about how well the projects were going and how the team was on top of all of their projects, I recognized that my stepping away allowed Jeremy to lead more confidently.

Since then, I’ve set a clearly-stated boundary of trust. I know I don’t need to be a part of every team meeting but only part of the meetings where I can add value. It’s important to me that both Jeremy and the team know that I trust Jeremy enough to lead. We regularly talk about healthy boundaries and which meetings I should and shouldn’t be a part of. 

Communication

We’ve prioritized hard, uncomfortable conversations since the beginning of our family business partnership.

Before my son and I ever began to lead together, we charted a plan for what the business transition would look like. We talked through our differences, perceived nepotism, the tension of finances, and anything else that would be difficult to discuss before moving forward.

We continue to have necessary conversations through our monthly “legacy meetings,” where we only talk business, not family. These meetings have been a pivotal part of our success as family business partners because they allow us intentional time for essential training, difficult conversations, and continued succession planning. If work gets brought up during family time, we bookmark it and save it for the next “legacy” meeting.

Desire

We work well together because both of our hearts are in it.

When looking for a business partner, especially someone in your family, make sure they share the same passion and have the skill set to do the job with excellence. We never forced Jeremy to take over; he wanted to. He pursued multiple degrees that gave him the knowledge and experience he needed to work within our business and lead it to the next level.

I also think it’s essential to make sure you are choosing a family business partner you enjoy being around and having fun with. We spend so much of our time at work, it must be enjoyable.

Choose a partner or family member whose heart is in the business, and if you know you can’t have fun with them, I’d urge you to rethink your decision.

Humility

We view our partnership as two servants coming together to serve one another.

I want Jeremy to succeed more than ever before, and I want him to avoid the speed bumps I had to face on my journey. As faithful servants, we share our inheritance and don’t ignore the team members who aren’t blood. We make a place for them.

When we recognize that this business is not ours but God’s, we show up and steward it differently. We open every legacy meeting in prayer and don’t simply delegate to people; we develop people.

Are You Struggling to Work Well with a Family Business Partner? Here are Next Steps

It usually takes fifteen years to transition a family into a business, and we did it in ten. How? I genuinely believe it’s because of Jeremy and my trust, communication, desire, and humility. These values aren’t just “good ideas,” they’re guiding principles we put into practice every day. From clearly-stated boundaries to intentional conversations, my son and I have tried our best to live our lives as successful business partners.

If you’re struggling to work well with a family business partner, then I encourage you to let go of your plan and ask God about his plan for the future of your business.

Seeking to live in His reflection,

Jerry Meek

One of the “Marks of a Faith Driven Entrepreneur” is In Partnership. We know we can’t run a business entirely on our own. God has created us to live in community and to put our trust in things outside our own power and control. Learn more about navigating what it means to partner with others as an entrepreneur.

Recent articles

You’ve heard the phrase “it takes a village to raise a family.” Well, Kenyan entrepreneur Joram Mwinamo thinks it applies to businesses as well.

Joram founded and runs SNDBX International, a collaborative co-working space unlike any other. Entrepreneurs who join the community gain access to over 30 expert consultants in non-competing fields, from digital marketing to law. It’s truly a one stop shop for founders to build and scale their businesses.

He joins the show to talk about his uniquely African approach to business and to show us what the rest of the world can learn from the continent.

Episode Transcript

Rusty Rueff: Welcome back, everyone, to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Whether you’ve been with us for a long time or this is your first time downloading us, thank you so much. In the early days, you remember that what we used to do is we talk about, hey, we’re going off to someplace where we really never went off to, someplace. We would always virtually go to places like we’re going to Kansas City or we’re going to Dallas or today, you know, we’re in Cleveland. Well, I’m going to do it again because today we’re actually in Kenya. We’re not actually in Kenya, but we’re going to Kenya. And I think that’s really cool. So come with us to Kenya, because our guest today is Joram Mwinamo. He’s the co-founder and CEO of the SNDBX at Sandbox International. If you’re looking it up, its capital S N D B X Sandbox International, it’s a one stop shop for entrepreneurs and truly is a one stop shop. It’s a village model. The village model of SNDBX is globally unique as they bring together over 30 professional services under one roof so that entrepreneurs have the expertise they need to scale up their businesses. Joram also co-founded Grew and ultimately exited Wylld International. That’s w y l d e. That was an innovative business strategy and consulting services organization based out of Kenya. Joram is passionate about uncovering the potential of Africa and having a global influence. He’s a mentor for the Impact Startup program in Berlin and sits on the board of Amnesty International Kenya. He joins us today to talk about the value that a village mindset. And I want you to hang to that a village mindset, the value it can bring to entrepreneurs around the world. Let’s listen in.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur. I’m here as most of the time, almost always with Rusty and William. And we won’t trouble you with all the college football talk that we’ve had. We probably won’t even air this until February, so it won’t matter then. But I’ll tell you what will matter than the fact that we did the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast and conference from Africa this year is something that’s still being talked about and I think it will be talked about for years and years. In fact, we’re headed back there in February for yet more events, just really excited about what God is doing on the continent of Africa. And many of you listeners may also know that we have a sister podcast called Faith Driven Entrepreneur Africa with Ndidi Nwuneli as a co-host along with Richard Okello and Efosa Ojomo. We also have the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Asia podcast. So we have regional site with regional content, but this is the original podcast, and from time to time we want to take some really interesting stories that give our primarily American audience as we have gone ahead and people who are just focused on Africa have gone off to the Africa podcast and those are just interest in Asia. We’ve gone off the Asia podcast. So what we’re left with here is more of a global movement set and what we want to be able to do is make sure that they too understand what God is doing in both Asia and today in Africa. And we have one of those stories with a new friend of mine named Joram Mwinamo and I, we get the chance to meet Joram when we were with the film crew in Kenya, when we were filming the Faith Driven Entrepreneur conference, and I was just really encouraged by what we saw. And so as we thought of a crossover episode, we thought of this one. And so Rusty and William, we’re going to take our team. We’re going to take our audience, if you will, to Africa today. Rusty was there just a couple of months ago and has developed an appreciation for the continent what God is doing there. So Rusty and William, good morning.

Rusty Rueff: Good morning. Good morning. This is going to be great. We had such a phenomenal time. We’ve been on a visiting safari. It was just fantastic and it was the first time I’d been to Kenya and as a runner that was a big deal for me. It was a big deal. It’s sort of like the running Mecca, right? And I actually got out and it was able to run in the wild with a guide. And our guest today will appreciate it probably more than YouTube guys do. But I went up a hill around the corner and there was standing a black rhino. And so the black rhino is not one that you want to mess with.

Henry Kaestner: You can mess with the white rhinos apparently, though.

Rusty Rueff: Well that….. Rhinos. No, no, no, rhinos. But now is a what a fantastic country. What an amazing amount of things that are going on on the continent. And I think today is going to be a fantastic way for us to just get a little bit of peek and to what God’s doing in Kenya.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, indeed William we need to get you to Africa.

Willam Norvell: I’d love to have never made it. It’s on my list.

Henry Kaestner: One of the things Ndidi talks about in her podcast, as she has done such a great job of hosting, is her motivation and encouragement to change the narrative of what people think about Africa. And as you listen this podcast today, I don’t know whether your perception is one of a safari or if it’s one of fair trade coffee or if it’s teaching handicrafts. And all those things are absolutely part of the African story. And the beauty and the diversity is incredible. But the other thing that many people may not have a really good sense of is the economic dynamism of the launch of some really neat category defining businesses in a region in what I’m talking now within Africa, of East Africa, in particular in Kenya, Nairobi, some incredible technology entrepreneurs that have been really able to come out of this sense of leapfrogging over existing technology and really much of the innovation coming out of payments, even some telecommunications, but definitely financial services that’s defining how the world thinks about these sectors is coming out of Nairobi. And some of that is coming out of what God is doing through Joram. So, Joram, without further ado, welcome to the program. Welcome to the show. Super encouraged by you and your story and for you to share with us about what God is going through SNDBX.

Joram Mwinamo: Yeah, Thank you so much for having me. Really excited to be with you guys.

Henry Kaestner: At Faith Driven Entrepreneur. We talk a lot about the problems we have with a lone wolf mentality that many entrepreneurs experience, but what you’ve implemented is something you call a village model of sorts at SNDBX, and it’s based on an old African proverb. Could you tell us about the proverb and how it shaped the vision for SNDBX?

Joram Mwinamo: Yes. So this is an African proverb that is found in actually a lot of African communities in all the different languages and tribes. It’ll be stated differently. But at the end of it, the proverb is that it takes a village to raise a child. And what that basically meant is that the child had never belonged to one individual, but basically belong to the village. So that gives the leeway for everyone to parents the child, like everyone, had permission to discipline the child if need to be without permission from the parents. But even when it came to things like ensuring the child got through school and university, then everyone would come together, contribute money and make sure that, you know, they get a good education. So we took the same proverb into the SNDBX where we say it also takes a village to raise a good business. And what that means is that entrepreneurs can walk into the SNDBX and they find this whole army of like 33 different experts with different areas of expertise that all passionate and focus around helping that one business succeed as much as they can. And so every entrepreneur who walks in here is basically not alone, but has an army of people, you know, trained on them to basically succeed. And it doesn’t just go as far as the entrepreneur succeeding, but even together, like with each other at the village, all the experts also make sure that every other expert also nobody is left behind. We collaborate to also make sure that everybody is succeeding in their business. So it’s almost like bringing a different model that says it’s not just about one person, you know, succeeding or, on the flipside, failing by themselves, but ensuring that everyone succeeds together in the village. And so there’s so many things we do professionally and socially that just ensures that we move together as one unit and as a group and that everyone gets to succeed at the end of the day.

Henry Kaestner: So that’s really interesting to me and I want to get into that a little bit more and just understand how broad that buy in is of the village, whether it’s of fellow entrepreneurs, whether it’s just your staff. But before I do that, before I ask that question, I want to give a little bit more of a backdrop. And I really wish we could take our listeners on a tour of the facilities. They could get an appreciation for it, but I just try to do it a bit verbally here. So SNDBX is more than a co-working space. Many people listen this in America are gonna think co-working and I understand that concept. But with SNDBX, it’s a space for entrepreneurs can go and be supported by people who are experts in the fields that entrepreneurs need help with to scale and grow from insurance to tech marketing systems development. In some ways, you’ve really become like this one stop shop for entrepreneurs. With that as abackground, is it the staff that’s all trying to make sure these entrepreneurs succeed, or is that sense of the village? Does that extend to your fellow entrepreneurs in a part of your cohort and just riff on that a bit? Just what is the village mean? Is it just the village elders to do this, or is it the fellow schoolchildren in the village?

Joram Mwinamo: Yeah, So the village is really, you know, bringing together different companies. So each of these experts run a consultancy of their own. So it could be a legal firm, it can be a marketing firm, it can be a HR firm or a financial management firm. So all the 33 companies I mentioned are actually small firms, but then get into an agreement with the SNDBX itself. We ensure that in the model we have non competing professionals coming together under one roof. And so that creates the perfect conditions for collaboration because everyone has something they bring to the table, they bring a different expertise. They bring that company on their networks, they bring their clients to the SNDBX and at one point or another, every client will need to one or another of the services that we offer the SNDBX. And so we’ve managed to like split up the areas of expertise into these focused areas where we get people who are really, really good at what they do. So if it’s branding, they have this depth in branding and being able to capture the, you know, the brand strategy of a business, if it’s legal, they are able to go all the way into like the corporate legal that, you know, entrepreneurs need. If it’s risk management, being able to break down the complex concepts of risk management, for an entrepreneur to understand what value to bring to their business. So, you know, bringing all this together, what it means is that a Kenyan entrepreneur can walk into one space and find access to all the different services instead of running to 33 different offices to find the different services, they can find it in one location that the community is very integrated means they get so much more value than one siloed view. You know, in the traditional sense, you’d get somebody go to the accountant and they get all these great strategies on how to cut costs. But then when they go to the HR, the HR says, Look, we need to train our people, which means you’re going to be increasing costs. And that could confuse the entrepreneur. But at SNDBX, the HR and finance would sit together and talk about, you know, what the value that is to be created this in line without [….] are and then the HR and accountant would then agree on what the best strategy would be to help the entrepreneur. So in a sense, we’ve created like the collaboration brings much better solutions to the entrepreneur, and then we end up forming this one big community. It’s not uncommon to come to the SNDBX and find our entrepreneurs. Just maybe they came for consultation, but after that they just choose to hang around and talk and have conversations with other different experts and part of the community. Sometimes we have social events where you’ll find that they become part of it and we are building like this club of entrepreneurs who are part of the larger village. And so it really is unprecedented. Like by the time we finished designing this, we hadn’t seen anything like it in the world where you’d find legal accounting, marketing, background, you know, insurance, travel and everything under one roof just collaborating to help brands. And out of that, we began to see amazing stories of people getting helped, you know, around the clock and from different angles such that they’re able to get really the best strategies that help their businesses to grow. So we increasingly think this is something that’s going to take root more and more just based on the value that we’ve seen ourselves create.

Rusty Rueff: So, Joram, I’m really curious about the whole SNDBX thing, because I think you’re right. It’s a very unique model. You don’t see other people trying to do this. How did you operate during COVID?

Joram Mwinamo: I think COVID was one of the times when we really saw the power of the village working together. It was a difficult time. A lot of the people in the village had either parents or friends or family members either go get sick. We did have, unfortunately, a few incidences where people were bereaved, but it was just amazing how the community, the village, rallied together to be there for each other, which was powerful because then it meant we were not just there to be together when making money, but also in the difficult times are also, you know, just through challenging times. They could also stand together. A lot of us are actually majority of us are Bible believing Christians, and we would pray together, We would visited each other. We would support each other a lot during the difficult times. One of the things that defines a lot of things that happened during COVID, because we do collect a lot of data of how the businesses are doing, is that one, despite the fact that we have a coworking model and nobody felt the need to not be part of the community during COVID and continue to pay, because having the community together one was encouraging. We shared a lot of strategies on how to stay alive, you know, how to thrive. And we did actually help businesses grow like 70% in the first year of Covid that was 2020. And in 2021 we had like a further average growth of about 80%. And so not only were we very resilient, but it showed that the model was able to create a lot of value in just keeping everyone strong and growing during the COVID time. And a lot of people were able to keep up the payments that kept the coworking space alive during that time. So something about the village model and working together has really created a lot of value during this time. And now that we are out of that period, the growth is like on steroids now. And so, yeah, like people are really busy hiring and growing and can’t have enough of serving the entrepreneurs that come through our doors.

Rusty Rueff: And that’s awesome. That’s awesome.

Rusty Rueff: We interrupt this broadcast to ask you an important question. You like when others help you find good things, right? Well, if you made it this far in the episode, chances are you think something about it was good and you can easily spread it around if you follow three easy steps. Rate. Follow and share the podcast. That’s it. Thanks for the support. Now back to the show.

Rusty Rueff: You know, you talk about these non competing experts and bring them together. And look, everybody listening on the podcast today is not going to have the gift of having a village around them in the way that you’ve done SNDBX. But I think everyone should be creating their own village. Right. We always talk about don’t go alone. You know, you need people and you want to surround yourself with experts. What are two or three attributes that you use to qualify and to evaluate these non competing experts so that you know that they’re going to be generous with their time and they’re going to be authentic and they’re going to, you know, follow up with what they say and be Integris. Because I think any entrepreneur that’s listening could take these attributes that you’re going to give us here, hopefully, and begin to assess and evaluate their own set of experts, our village that they’re trying to put together. So what do you look for?

Joram Mwinamo: I think one of the big things is just looking at people who are passionate about helping others’ growth, serving entrepreneurs or SMI can be a labor of love. You’re not going to grow rich overnight. You know, having to create new business models, kind of serve people on a smaller scale, but it can pay off really big with time if you’re, like, focused on it and committed. But the other thing that we’ve seen, we realize not everyone has grown with an abundance mentality. Not everyone has grown with the mentality that, you know, collaborating can bring the greater good for everyone rather than just some benefit for a few, and many others suffer. And so we’ve all learned to be giving of ourselves. You know, you can’t do everything in the village based on a commercial. This is the time that you find people exchanging value or knowledge or just walking together to help each other grow so much more. And because it’s fulfilling to see the kind of growth that can come out of the kind of things that we are doing. I think we’ve seen amazing, amazing stories of growth of even some of our clients growing to be the kind of businesses that are not just doing business in Kenya or in East Africa, but across Africa and some have become so good that they even have clients from across the world. And so earlier we had talked about just changing the narrative about African businesses. And I think one of the big things that we’ve been able to achieve at the village is helping Africans to have a different perspective about themselves. And what I keep saying is, you know, God created us in his own image and likeness. And I think sometimes Africans may struggle to see themselves in that image and likeness of God, where he was, you know, very creative at the beginning of, you know, creating the world, our humanity and putting everything together in the different days in an orderly fashion. And I just encourage a lot of the experts to see themselves as in that very image and likeness of they can be creative, they can come up with amazing creative solutions for African problems, they can come up with creative and amazing companies that can create stuff in Africa that the rest of the world wants to learn from, wants to copy from, wants to, you know, get some ideas from. And I think like SNDBX are the forefront of that. This village formula is one of the things that I’ve seen a lot of companies just get very excited about from the West. I lived in Norway once, I’ve lived in Europe and worked there and kind of came back, you know, with a sense that life could get quite individualistic when everything is catered for you. But while I was there, I would encourage a lot more community into what it is that was happening around me. And I could see other people get excited about that whole community aspect. I think the village or the community is one of the things Africa may reintroduce to the rest of the world as a mainstay of doing business or just living life together.

Rusty Rueff: That’s awesome. Yeah. I don’t want us to leave without reinforcing a couple of points you’ve made there about, you know, these non competing experts. This village that you create. One is I heard working with people who have a spirit of abundance, right. Who have an attitude of abundance. And the second thing I heard was people who are creative. Right. And so I think sometimes what happens when we surround ourselves with people, we say, oh, you know, I really need a great attorney and I need a great accountant. I need great you know, this is they end up staying, I’m going to use the pun. They stay in their own sandbox instead of coming to your SNDBX and being creative. Right. They think, well, because I’m an attorney, you know, I only give my legal. Well, no, let’s surround ourselves with people who have great expertise, but also bring creativity to our businesses. And therefore, the SNDBX is bigger than we all can play in it. Right? So I love that. I love that. I’m going to turn this over to William in a second, but before we do that. So you went to Norway. You’ve been to other places, but yet you came back to Africa and have been a part of creating a thriving entrepreneurial environment, economy. And I want you to dive a little more into that, because we’ll have listeners here who feel like, well, I may be in Kansas City and I need to go to Silicon Valley to succeed. Right. Or to get to where that is. Instead of saying, Well, what if I tap into the ecosystem here and I just stay here in Kentucky or Indiana or Virginia or any of the other places that we might have listeners. So just open that up a little bit for us.

Henry Kaestner: Or for the Africans that are in Kansas City right now.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, that’s right.

Henry Kaestner: Come on back. Come on back. There you go. Because otherwise, the African diaspora is an amazing, amazing thing. But as the listeners here, motivated by their faith, have a heart for Africa, I think that maybe the Africa that they see might be different than the Africa they left ten years ago. And it could really use them right now.

Rusty Rueff: It’s good. I think it’s good.

Joram Mwinamo: Definitely. I had a very deep conviction that we were on the cusp of something different happening in Africa. All the fundamental statistics seem to show that there’s just this latent potential bubbling under the continent and on the surface. I also had a very deep conviction that, you know, I have a deep belief that entrepreneurship is all about problem solving. And I keep saying that where you have the most problems then should create the next billionaires. And Africa seems to be the point where there are all these problems that need to be solved. But I don’t think that Africans themselves, for a very long time have seen themselves as the problem solvers of the immediate problems around them. But something seems to be shifting where there seem to be an increasing realization that there’s all these resources, there’s a youthful population, you know, there’s growing Internet connectivity across the continent by mobile phone, and there’s different types of innovations, like the mobile money in Kenya started coming to the fore. A lot of people then began to see that, look, we can create solutions that are unique to ourselves, that are so amazing that the rest of the world wants to copy from us. I remember traveling around the world and just having to explain and show people how our mobile money system works very simply over an SMS system, and I would see people completely amazed by how something so simple can be so powerful. I could do transactions online when I’m in the U.S. or anywhere in the world and send money back home to somebody. And now I can see, you know, you have your Apple pays and Venmo and everything and sort. I’ve come up after that and largely lending and borrowing from what it is that had happened on the African continent. And so with such examples, I think it’s clear that there is a lot that we have to offer, But I think a lot of it has to start with us seeing ourselves differently, seeing ourselves as creatives, seeing ourselves as problem solvers. And as we’ve begun to solve this problem, there’s so much value that has begun to be created on the continent. I think out of the last in the last five years out of the top ten fastest growing economies, I think eight out of ten have been African economies. We’ve had a lot of regime change is a lot more stable economies and political systems. And so I’m really bullish about the African economy for the next ten, 20, 30 years. I think the next great stories of this world, of companies, of growing economies, are going to be coming out of Africa. And so, I mean, we are pretty open. We are pretty hospitable to working with the rest of the world to make this a reality. But I think a lot has changed where the Africans are really confident in themselves and working hard to build these solutions that change their economies.

Willam Norvell: Hmm. That’s amazing. Joram, thank you for taking us on that tour and reminding us where some of these things have come from. Really amazing to think through that. And I want to shift just a tiny bit here as we move towards the back half of the podcast to your own personal journey. And, you know, obviously a lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs that find themselves at various levels of discouragement. Right. There’s some great mountaintop moments, but there’s many more that are not. How has even in the midst of success, how have you wrestled through the discouragement that can come day to day or week to week or month to month? And how has your faith and or other people helped you through that journey?

Joram Mwinamo: Yeah, I in the story of building my company, I’m one of those who at one point, you know, because of how difficult things were when I was running, my previous company actually ended up having to deal with depression and anxiety like mental health issues through some pretty discouraging times. I think just, you know, having to fight through some of the challenges that our business environments still have to offer. Like corruption, like, you know, difficult economic environments or difficult government protocols and the like. They do drive me to a point where I really struggled, you know, dealing with some of these issues and getting into really dark times and business did not seem like it was watching out and then having to get into a place of just the documents that comes with depression and anxiety. But one, I do believe quite strongly that if it wasn’t for a village and just having to admit that, you know, in the midst of the challenges that are happening and having to be open and vulnerable with other people and have them step in and cover for me and the times when I was completely incapacitated and couldn’t, you know, function well, but also getting the encouragement that would come from the village and being able to seek help from people like specialists in therapy and the like, and then being able to walk that journey back to a place where the business has succeeded. You know, prayer for me during those very dark times was quite helpful. I think a lot of people in my situation would probably have given up or shut down or something. But just having, again, communities around me in from church, from my family, my wife encouraging through that period help to shine a light when things are quite difficult, I find because I do coach a lot of entrepreneurs as well and I did quite a lot of that. I do find that people tend to isolate themselves even more during the dark periods, and so my encouragement is like, be proactive about creating that village around you that will encourage you in dark times, that will help lift you out of the dark times. Don’t isolate yourself. And even as you pray, you know that times, maybe in the darkness, you are not able to treat yourself better and you have a village of people around you who can uphold you just in prayer and encouragement can make things a lot more bearable than if you choose to go the lone wolf route. And so that really would be my encouragement. Like don’t try and be a hero to try and do this all by yourself. I know the media tends to celebrate people as self-made, but I strongly believe that without a village around you, you could not go through such difficult times.

Willam Norvell: Hmm. Thank you for walking us through that. It’s it’s amazing that last point you made, I think is so important. I feel like I hit that point for the first time four or five years ago in my life. I used to not understand when people said, I can’t pray anymore. So what do you mean you can’t pray anymore? And four, five years ago, some things just happen in my life where I finally, for the first time recite. And I remember sitting in those text messages and those notes saying, I can’t do it anymore. Can you pray on my behalf? And I didn’t think I’d ever reach that point. So thank you for sharing that and reminding us that we are made for community. And there are those times when we need people to pray for us, when we can’t do it ourselves. And God so gracious to answer those moments. So drum with that. At the end of our podcast, we were going to shift to something we call the Lightning Round. If there’s a cultural distance there, I don’t know if there is, but what it means is quick questions. I think you got it from the smile. Quick questions. Quick answers. Henry tries to encourage people 30 to 60 seconds. We’ve rarely hit that, but we try our best. So you’re going to get it from all sides here. Rusty and Henry invite everyone back in. But we’re going to run through some quick questions and try to get some great comments. First would be what’s your audience know about the state of business in Africa that they don’t know today?

Joram Mwinamo: Yeah, I think the next greatest business is to come out of this world, are going to come out of Africa. I think you’re increasingly going to see with a 1.2 billion population of young people, you’re going to see a lot of opportunities for creating value, creating innovations. Yeah, just creating infrastructure and creating opportunities for the large populations of Africa, for job creation, for economic impact. I am like dead set, convicted about the fact that that’s going to be the case. And so if you’re not part of making it happen, you’re going to miss some.

Willam Norvell: Awesome If food happened to be 80% of someone’s reason to travel to Africa, where should they go first for the single best food?

Joram Mwinamo: Oh wow, I say I would say Kenya at that coast has some of the most amazing food you could come across. And so I would encourage them to come to Mombasa and get to eat things like Pilau. And they just have a lot of amazing cuisines of the different types of foods. I think they spent the most time of all the different tribes of Kenya perfecting how they cook.

Rusty Rueff: All right. I’m going to stay with food. Why can’t I make good ugali? I’ve tried. What’s the secret?

Joram Mwinamo: It needs a special flour for those who don’t know. Ugali is a special food in Kenya made out of maize meal, and so it needs a special flour. The one you have in America is not going to cut it. You need to get the special one in Kenya […..] I can ship you some.

Rusty Rueff: I will follow up with you. I love Ugali.

Henry Kaestner: Okay, I’ve got one before I hand it back to William for the final close. Is there a ministry or a charity that you like to give to one that you feel that when you give to it, you see God working through your donations in a way that brings you joy?

Joram Mwinamo: Yeah. So I’ve just come off the board of an organization called Nakuru Children’s Trust, where we’ve been able to take quite a number of kids, now numbering the hundreds in Kenya through educational opportunities, all the way to probably tertiary education where possible. And yet just seeing the lives of those who would not previously had the opportunity to go all the way in their education for one reason or another, and being part of an organization that is supported by both Kenyans and Americans. Making that a reality has been quite fulfilling.

Willam Norvell: That’s amazing. And as we do come to the close of our show, what we always love to ask is try to invite you to share a piece of God’s word that may be coming alive to you today. It could be something. This morning he spoke to you, could be something you’ve been meditating on your whole life. But we just loved to always continue to see how God’s Word is alive and moving and invite our guests to share with our audience something that’s stirring in their heart today.

Joram Mwinamo: Yeah. So it’s interesting. We have been going through in our church. I attended Nairobi Chapel congruent in Kenya, one of the big non-denominational churches here. And yeah, so we’re going through a study of the Book of Ruth and it’s very interesting. Like this past Sunday, it felt like God was speaking directly to me. Even my wife kept turning to me and saying, You know, this sermon is specifically for you. And it’s basically about how, you know, just Ruth made herself busy in a foreign land and active and using what she had just to work and then got spotted during that time. And what’s his name is Pastor Ondachi was telling us was basically a lot of us because of fear would hold back from trying out something that’s in line with the talents that God has given us and therefore we end up missing out on so many opportunities. And he drew so many parallels even to the parable of the talents and just a parallel with Ruth’s life. If she sat back and said, I’m affraid, I’m not qualified for this, I can’t do anything useful, she would end up just having not been spotted and elevated to a place where I think there’s a lot of things said about her industrious nature, a lot of things said about her loyalty, a lot of things said about how hard working she was. And if you translate that, whether it’s to the entrepreneurship space or to the career space, if we don’t have fear, if we are industrious, if we throw ourselves into taking up opportunities and doing things in line with our talents, that could end up opening up new opportunities. It could be writing a book, it could be, you know, authoring something new, it could be starting a business. It could just be doing something that we’ve been passionate about, that God has put in us. And it’s basically in line with that, that people begin to notice what you’re doing and you get elevated opportunities. Basically come to those who are already in the field doing something. I’m a living testimony of that. If I had never taken the step to, you know, set up a business that was helping entrepreneurs, I would never have come across the opportunities to have people fund the set up of a SNDBX. I look where I am today telling my story in this podcast and who knows what other opportunities could open out of this to make our global vision a reality. So I tell people don’t have any fear, you know, step out, have courage, do that which God has placed in you and you don’t know who will pick that up and amplified.

Henry Kaestner: Fear of God and don’t have any fear that something profound that just came to me, Joram, I’m just I’m grateful for you. I’m grateful for the way that you’ve been able to share with us a different vision for Africa, what God is doing there. I love how have you come back and done something with the village concept that is absolutely African origin and bring it to bear in a way that allows entrepreneurs to succeed at scale in a world class way, showing excellence along the way. I’m grateful for your friendship and your leadership in your partnership in the Faith Driven Entrepreneur movement. Thank you.

Joram Mwinamo: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me to all these spaces. It’s been amazing how my life has changed since I got into this movement and networked. And all the friends I have rebirth and the synergis of this movement. We collaborate quite a bit here in Kenya and it’s been amazing the things that we’ve done together to help entrepreneurs grow.

— by Andrew Ripley

It’s been almost two decades since the release of Pastor Rick Warren’s landmark book, The Purpose Driven Life, and the purpose movement is deeply indebted to Pastor Rick for shifting the conversation, grounding it in scripture, and bringing it to our collective consciousness.

But people are still struggling to understand and live their purpose, and the purpose movement has continued to unfold over the last 20 years.

In my own work, with the Fruition Project and other endeavors, I am driven by these three insights:

Purpose is a divine journey not a destination. 

True purpose isn’t something out there to be found—some elusive “X” on the treasure map of life. It’s not really about “that one job” you’re supposed to have or “that one thing” you’re supposed to do. It’s a way of being—a daily process, guided by God. 2 Thessalonians 1:11 calls this process fruition. It draws on your God-given gifts, calls you out of yourself, and invites you to reimagine your purpose in the light of God’s purposes.

Knowing your purpose doesn’t mean much if you don’t live

Even if they have a sense of purpose, most people don’t really know how to live it on a daily basis. If purpose isn’t practiced daily, it’s a nice-sounding idea that goes nowhere. The good news: Christian scripture and tradition offer the deepest well of spiritual practice and habit formation resources the world has ever known.

Purpose is a *we* thing.

Most people assume purpose is an individual thing. This is a mistake because it’s in and through Christ-centered community that purpose comes to fruition.

The Hero Model of Purpose

Most people in the western world—consciously or subconsciously—ascribe to a “hero model” of purpose. Life is a movie, and I want to be the star. The clouds part, a spotlight shines down from heaven, a drumroll rises from the deep, God waves a magic purpose wand, and in a great crescendo of trumpets and light, my purpose is revealed. The world sees me there on my pedestal, and behold, I am very good!

Sure, I want to make the world better for people, but if I’m being honest, I want some credit, too. And I want to be paid well. And I want it to be fun—and not too hard.

When many people talk about purpose, they’re talking about “that one thing”—that one pursuit or job that makes everything make sense and makes their lives fit together in perfect, harmonious bliss.

In the hero model, purpose is shaped in our image. We want purpose that…

• Comes quickly and clearly

• Makes us happy and comfortable

• Wins us the admiration and respect of others

But purpose that fits all your wants and desires probably isn’t your deepest purpose. You can live with purpose today, but it may take years to unfold fully. It may be hard at times and even a little uncomfortable. It may not look very impressive to others. They may not notice at all.

Wait, doesn’t Jeremiah 29:11 tell us that God is preparing a future of perfect blessedness for us? Yes! But we forget that it’s a blessedness on God’s terms—not our terms. And “us” doesn’t just mean “me”—this passage wasn’t written to Bill in Babylon. It was written to the people of Israel in Babylonian captivity. And when we read verse 11, we like to skip over verse 10: “Only when Babylon’s seventy years are completed will I visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place.

Jeremiah 29 probably didn’t sound like good news to the captives in Babylon because it meant they probably wouldn’t make it back to Jerusalem. Their children probably wouldn’t make it back. Ah, but their children’s children…

Something Better

None of this feels like good news if we want the magic wand of instantaneous, heroic purpose. But it is good news because there’s something better. It all starts with God’s purposes.

Scripture makes God’s purposes clear: to save the world…to draw a lost, broken world home into His arms. We see it in God’s covenantal relationship with Israel described in the Old Testament, and it finds full expression in Jesus. The opening chapters of the New Testament speak of Christ’s purpose: to embody God’s saving presence—to make it visible, tangible, and personal.

And it’s in Him that we find our purpose.

True purpose is shaped in the image of Christ. In Christ, we come alive, remade and set free…yes, from the power of sin but also for the power of purpose.

God is doing something big in and through you, after all. It just has nothing to do with what the world thinks is “big.” How much money do you make? How big is your house? How many social media followers do you have? Fruition has nothing to do with any of these things.

Your purpose has nothing to do with being celebrated by the world…nothing to do with maximizing your comfort and your sense of self-worth…nothing to do with building a lasting legacy in your name. In the grand scheme of things, your life is a breath—a vapor—here and gone (James 4:14). Your name will someday be forgotten to the world, and even if it weren’t, what good would that do you?

True purpose isn’t about all that. It’s harder and messier—and better.

True purpose has everything to do with becoming part of something bigger than you. God has a vision for the world, and He wants your help in making that vision real. God stitches you into community for the purpose of sharing life and faith. He calls you to sacrifice for the betterment of others. He gives you gifts and trusts you to put them to work.

Kingdom: A Beautiful and Mysterious Tension 

God has a beautiful vision for the world. Jesus calls it “the kingdom of God.” It’s what God wants the world to look like, and it’s a vision that WILL come to be.

This plan, which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth, with Christ as head. (Ephesians 1:10)

God’s vision has been planned since the beginning of time, but it’s not yet fully here. It will be completed “when the time is right.”

And yet…it is here. When Jesus Christ came to earth, kingdom—God’s beautiful vision for the world—came with Him. Jesus made this clear when He said to the Pharisees, “The kingdom of God is among you.” (Luke 17:20-21)

Everything Jesus did…everything He said…everything He was…demonstrated kingdom, and everything He touched—every life, every relationship, every tradition—echoed with the imprint of kingdom. He was “the Way,” meaning that He was both the roadmap for and the driving force behind kingdom building.

All creation will someday come together in the peace and wholeness of Christ. We long for that day. And this union is emerging, even now. Both can be true. And God’s purposes are revealed in both. God wants to build something, but God wants to build it a certain way.

This, then, is our destiny and our purpose: not to find our place in the spotlight…not to lift our names high but to be a small part of this unfolding process, rooting our purpose in God’s purposes and doing everything we can to lift high the name of Jesus.

The Fruition Model of Purpose

When we think of the word “fruition,” we think of the end goal, and that’s not wrong. But “fruition” also speaks to the process of getting there. Kingdom is both here now and coming soon, and this is also true of personal purpose. In fact, the emergence of kingdom and the emergence of purpose are connected.

We ask our God to make you worthy of the life he has called you to live. May he fulfill by his power all your desire for goodness and complete your work of faith. ­

– 2 Thessalonians 1:11

At the deepest level, your purpose is to glorify God by becoming a purposeful person. Yes, you will accomplish things. But ultimately, GOD accomplishes God’s kingdom purposes, so fruition isn’t just about what you accomplish. It’s about how you live and who you become in the process.

We invite you to stop worrying about “that one thing you’re supposed to do with your life.” Fruition is a way of being—in all aspects of life. It happens when you:

• Root yourself in God’s kingdom vision

• Look beyond yourself to the needs of others

• Use what God gives you to the best of your ability

• Build the habits that make purpose part of your daily life

As you work those four pursuits in your life, your efforts will help bring kingdom fruition. The process will also change you, and this change IS kingdom fruition.

Will this process help you find your “dream job”? Maybe. But God might want to work on your dreams a little bit first. And the perfect job for you might not even exist yet. AND it’s possible to live purposefully in just about any job. AND fruition isn’t just about your career; it’s about everything you do, from job to family life to volunteering to how you interact with strangers and shop for groceries. This study is designed to help you be purposeful in all aspects of life, whether you’re 15 or 85.

Not Easy, But Good

Oliver was 3, with curly black hair and a smile brighter than a thousand suns. When I learned he had been diagnosed with muscular dystrophy, I was so heartsick I couldn’t move. A few days later, Oliver’s dad rocked my world with his testimony as we grieved together on a bench outside our church:

“I’m sad for the loss of the life I thought Oliver was going to have, but I’m learning that my vision for his life isn’t the measuring stick of his worth. He’ll be who God created him to be. He will be enough. And I’m going to do everything I can to help him live the fullest, most beautiful, most joyous life he possibly can.”

Yes, brother. This reminded me of an old quote from Martin Luther: “Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree.”

Oliver will need lots of help in this life, and someday his physical life will end…which makes him exactly the same as you and me. But we’ll plant in Oliver’s life, and he’ll plant in ours. We’ll teach him about the love of Christ through deep presence, as Jesus did. And he’ll teach us, too—that struggle isn’t the end of joy but the beginning.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom and yet renounce controversy are people who want crops without plowing the ground.

– Frederick Douglass

As my friend and I sat together that day, he looked at me and said, “I choose faith.” And in the days since, I’ve witnessed fruition happening in Oliver’s father’s life. He’s always been a great dad, but now he loves being a dad, even when it’s messy and hard. He has become a strong leader in our church, reminding us of what’s important and what’s not. And—maybe because of his greater appreciation for the beauty of creation—his career as a designer has really taken off.

Oliver’s life may not be comfortable, but it will be good. He and his family will plant and water their apple trees. And their abundant God will work fruition in them.

In Matthew 13, Jesus compares the kingdom to a mustard seed—tiny but full of potential. And in the eyes of God, the future tree promised by the seed is just as real now as it will be then. Where we see seeds, God sees a forest.

God simply asks that we lean in with love and work the process. God desires fruition. Our purpose isn’t just to be the tree; our purpose is to become the tree.

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There’s a lot of chatter out there about the challenges around recruiting and retaining employees. Dave Dunkel is an expert on these issues. The recently retired CEO has been leading an employment agency for over 40 years and has been on the front lines of major changes. In 1995, he played a pivotal role in taking the company–Kforce–public, a dream of his father’s who founded the organization decades earlier. Dave helped the team adapt to the staffing changes that came with the rise of the internet. He’s adapted to cultural and generational changes, and he’s stayed faithfully dedicated to excellence throughout. He joins us today to talk about how companies can attract and retain the right people, why community is so critical for Christian entrepreneurs, and what his favorite songs to play when he was in a cover band.

Episode Transcript

Rusty Rueff: Welcome back, everyone, to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. I’m Rusty. You know, there’s a lot of chatter out there today about the challenges around recruiting and retaining employees. Dave Dunkel is an expert on these issues. The recently retired CEO has been leading an employment agency for over 40 years and has been on the front lines of major changes. In 1995, he played a pivotal role in taking the company K Force public, a dream of his father’s, who founded the organization decades earlier. Dave helped the team adapt to the staffing changes that came with the rise of the Internet. He’s also adapted to cultural and generational changes, and he’s stayed faithfully dedicated to excellence throughout. He joins us today to talk about how companies can attract and retain the right people, why community is so critical for Faith driven entrepreneurs, and what his favorite songs to play were when he was in a cover band. Lots to cover. Let’s listen in.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We are finding ourselves in New Hampshire. We haven’t been in New Hampshire Rusty in a long, long time. This is our summer break. And you’re in Rhode Island, so you’re closer than I am.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, it’s not far, but I can’t remember the last time we actually took the podcast virtually to New Hampshire. Have we?

Henry Kaestner: We have once with a guy named Jason Syverson. Really neat guy. Entrepreneur

Rusty Rueff: Oh that’s right

Henry Kaestner: Long time ago. But God is doing amazing things all around the world. And yes, absolutely in New Hampshire. And we’re talking before we went live with our special guests today about just the role that New Hampshire has played over the years. And if you’re a big geopolitical buff, Bretton Woods on top of Mount Washington, played an amazing role in world history. And if you don’t know what I’m talking about and you’re interested, look it up and you’ll see how that agreement at the end of World War Two, set for 75 years of peace and prosperity globally. And it all started in the state of New Hampshire, where Dave Dunkel is in Rusty. This is a really special guest because I don’t know that there’s more beyond discipleship and endeavoring to know God. I don’t know that there’s any more meaningful thing for an entrepreneur to wrestle with than attracting and retaining great talent. And it’s your background and it most assuredly is the background of our guest today. So I am pretty fired up about today’s guest.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, I think it’s going to be great. Yeah. If you’re not wrestling with how to attract talent, how to retain talent, how to motivate talent, then you’re probably not in business. Yeah. You know, that’s you know, that’s what it is, you know, and so that we can tackle that today with Dave is just going to be exciting. So why don’t we jump into it?

Henry Kaestner: Indeed, indeed. Dave, welcome to the program. It’s good to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining.

David Dunkel: Thanks for having me. It’s exciting to be here and excited to talk about talent.

Henry Kaestner: Cool. So let’s start with the big news. As of the start of this year, you stepped down from your role as CEO of K Force, where you work since 1994, the year that I met my wife, May 12th, 1994. As a quick aside, do you still serve as a chairman there? But we want to hear about the transition as every day Saturday, What are you doing? Our audience now knows that you’re in New Hampshire, at least for this season. What does retirement look like? Big vacation, sleeping until noon. Tell us.

David Dunkel: I will tell you this, that I don’t know what retirement looks like because I’m not really retired. It’s a little bit of a misnomer. I actually went part time and it was a part of the agreement that I had with our board in the transition and with our current CEO. So my life hasn’t really changed a whole lot. My time’s freed up some, but I’m still doing calls with our CEO and with some of our executives and I actually facilitate. We have a Bible study that we do online with Microsoft teams, so I’ll be involved with that. I just took a whole group of people through a teaching called Abiding in the Word. And so I still get to be involved in a lot of the things that are going on. But the best part is that I’m not responsible every day for all of the CEO level duties, so my time is freed up quite a bit. But I would also say, you know, that God is had a plan for what he wanted to do through me during this time, and that’s becoming more clear. I follow a fundamental rule don’t commit to anything for the first six months, take some time, relax and see where God’s leading. And my wife got a revelation the day that they announced it, and God said to her that I have arranged things to work out perfectly for Dave because what he’s about to enter into is far more significant. And so she came in and she got this before her cup of coffee, which is kind of unusual. But she came in and share that with me. And it was really cool because I’ve sensed that God was actually preparing me for something new and more significant in my post CEO career. And so starting to get a glimpse for that now and the impact that we can have on the lives of people.

Henry Kaestner: So love that number of different angles. I want to get to what that might be in a second. A lot of people talk about the fact that retirement is not a concept that’s in the Bible and that you’re really leaning into new season and you’re encouraged by the fact that you’re sensing, as you process this with your bride is that it might be more significant. Tell us, as you’re in that process, what are you glimpsing?

David Dunkel: Well, one of the things that I’ve seen is the multiplication impact of being able to help people learn how to walk with God, discern God’s will, and then applying that in ministry. So I’m actively involved with C 12. I’m actually chairman of C 12 Board as well. And I know that you’re familiar with C 12 the principles that we’re applying with the mission and the vision of bringing the gospel to the marketplace and teaching leaders in how to literally lead their businesses that God has given them as stewards has been just a great blessing. So we spend several days a week on calls with disciple and calls and helping people work through ministry kinds of issues and business kinds of issues from a faith based perspective. So my week is still largely tied up with calls that are dealing with multiple folks or one on one calls with people and helping them to apply biblical concepts in their business.

Henry Kaestner: So for those of our listeners who do not yet know about C 12 and the odds are that you do because we talk about it quite frequently, C12 is a phenomenal ministry of getting together with your peers, men and women running businesses of the same type of size in local community over a long time doing life together and really an iron sharpening iron type of format, they’re expanding to Malaysia, to Brazil, and really just have an incredible base here in the States. You probably hear us talk a lot about content and community and we have Faith Driven Entrepreneur groups. As you go through a foundations group, we then encourage those that have gone through these marks of faith driven entrepreneur to go into a permanent local community and C 12 is such a great service provider for that. So thank you for your leadership there and your service there. Incredibly valuable and something that I’d encourage all of our listeners to check out as to whether that’s a fit for them. And I don’t want to be presumptuous and say this fit for everybody and yet maybe it is. So thank you for that.

David Dunkel: For sure.

Rusty Rueff: I want to I want to jump in here because I don’t want to lose one quick thought that you had before we get too far along this idea that and I do want to talk about community and how important it’s been in your own professional career, but this idea of stopping for a moment, you know, when you’re in a point of transition in your professional career and allowing God to speak, you know, I give this advice to people all the time. And what I find is that they they hurry through that time. Right. And the fact that you decided six months was your mark. And that doesn’t have to be everybody’s mark. Could be three months. It could be sometimes it could be a month or two weeks. But stopping and not jumping to the next thing until you hear God talk to you, I think is the nugget of wisdom that I’m taking from you in my capturing that correctly.

David Dunkel: Yeah, I think the thing for me was that I’ve been doing what I have been doing for 42 years. I actually was the founder of the company that actually acquired the predecessor, which my dad had been a part of founding, and this is back in 1980, and we went all the way through the 94 when we bought out the franchisor and they’ve taken the company public and then went through basically going from $40 million up to 1.7 billion. So I really had never had a break. I had never not been in the position where I had been the leader, the CEO, and carrying every day the burden of the organization, the people, the responsibility. So I wanted to get a sense for what that felt like and then give God the space so that I could hear the small still voice and in my quiet time, not be rushed, not be hurried, and just let him speak to me what it was that he wanted for me. And the cool thing is that one of the things he wanted was just for me to spend time with my wife. So we’ve had a fantastic first six months. We’ve just experienced time with the kids and grandkids and travel and doing ministry together and it’s just been a real thrill. So God’s next season also included my wife and I doing things in ministry together, which is cool.

Rusty Rueff: And it’s very cool. Yeah, Sometimes I think that when I read that verse, be still and know that I’m God, you can read it and it can be very soft, right? Be still and know that I’m God. That’s not how I read it. I have to hear it. Be still Rusty, just be still and know that I’m God. And sometimes I think that’s you know what entrepreneurs, you know, we just we go so fast and so hard that, you know, we need somebody just to grab us and shake us and say, be still. So you talked about the importance of community and what you’re now doing with C 12 and, you know, this great career that you’ve had. Being a CEO in the predecessor, as you said, at a company before that. Can you take a second, though, and tell us your own experiences of having other like minded leaders that helped you along the way? And are there any great stories and examples of, you know, had you not had that along on your journey, that you might have made the left hand turn when you should have made the right hand turn?

David Dunkel: Sure. Well, I could say, first of all, that I probably would have been voted least likely to succeed in my high school class if they had such a category back then. Because, you know, my career, I believe, was entirely the work of God. I believe that he knew from the beginning that there would be a come a time when he would wholly have my heart and that he began working and purpose in my life well before I even recognized it. So as my career unfolded and evolved, I developed a greater and greater thirst for knowledge of the word and fellowship and community. And it really started back in the mid-nineties, right after we had gone public, when I felt that I had a real need to go deeper in my walk and also to be around like minded believers. And that’s where actually when I joined C12 and actually became a member of Bob Jacobs’ Group, which was the founder of C12, and just being in the group with like minded people who had a biblical approach and a knowledge of the word and the level of accountability and the comfort to be able to share openly and transparently was absolutely critical to my own career. I didn’t realize at the time what I didn’t know, but what I did know was that I could go to them for wisdom and would receive that wisdom from them in lots of different ways. But I can think of one really cool example. One time we were getting ready to add corporate chaplains, and I really believe that corporate chaplains can make a huge difference in our firm in ministering to our people. It happened to be at a time when our industry was down, our stock had fallen, and I went to our general counsel and I told them, I said, Listen, I think now is the time for us to bring in corporate chaplains. I’d be a great employee system program. And he said, Dave, if you looked at the stock price, this is probably isn’t the time for you to take this risk. And one of my C12 guys called me, gave me encouragement right at the time that I was having this conversation happen to be in the parking lot and gave me encouragement and wisdom. Buck Jacobs gave me encouragement. A wisdom pointed out that each branch of the government and the military all had their own chaplains. It carried the day. We ended up going and bringing in chaplains. We’ve now had a chaplain within K force now for, geez, I guess almost 30 years. We’ve seen multiple salvation as we’ve seen people who were at death’s door be saved through supernatural means. We’ve seen all kinds of things happen. And I can trace it back to those times when I had the encouragement and the wisdom from the guys in our group.

Henry Kaestner: I love that corporate chaplains that were hitting on all the great partners here, C 12 and then just the concept of chaplains to include corporate chaplains of America and marketplace chaplains. Great impact on my company at Bandwidth, and I love hearing the same over a 30 year period. Chaplaincy is a just a powerful force and a lot of people give push back on something like that. At bandWith, we had a benefit for families who were adopting kids and it was $10,000. If you’re going adopt a child, we’ll give you $10,000 really believing that that’s a way to really invest in the sanctity of life in a positive frame. And when we talked about corporate chaplaincy, we did that before chaplaincy. But as we started getting some pushback on chaplaincy, we said, look, you should feel no pressure to ever call the chaplain, just as hopefully you don’t feel any pressure that you have to adopt a child. But should you ever need this benefit, it’s here for you. So I love the fact that you’ve got that, and I love the fact that we get a chance to talk about on the program. I want to bring the conversation back to something in your subject matter expert. And we have found ourselves in a time in the marketplace called the Great Resignation. And lots of business leaders are having a hard time recruiting and retaining their employees in the season. And so as an experienced leader in this space and Talent Solutions, what can you tell us about this moment in history? You’ve seen a bunch of different business cycles. Have you ever seen anything like this? And then just riff on that a bit, you know, how does a Faith Driven Entrepreneur in this type of environment through this great resignation? How do we lead?

David Dunkel: Yeah, it’s interesting you bring that up because that’s been really, I think since the COVID rebound has been the story about the great resignation talent attracting and retaining talent. And so we have the same experience internally in attracting and retaining employees and talent for K force, but also for our customers. So we get a chance firsthand to be at the forefront of this. I would say, first of all, that that is starting to change right now. The market shift as a result of the recent market downturn is taking some of the heat, if you will, of the talent market. But at the same time, I would say to you that talent is still the biggest differentiator between one firm and another. And from my own experience, I would say that the single biggest factor in attracting and retaining talent is the culture. And culture is probably the hardest thing to build, and it’s the most difficult thing to replicate. And so culture really is a reflection of the heart of the leader and the values of the firm. And so talent tends to gravitate towards the culture that it most closely identifies with and those that feel as though they’re being recognized, that they’re being loved, that they’re being rewarded. All of those things are factors in people’s making, decisions about where they want to go and spend their careers. And I think you see that now. And because you see a pretty diverse culture across the landscape of American companies, I can’t speak to international, but you’ve got progressive organizations, you’ve got conservative organizations, you’ve got lots of different cultures that are going on. So people as a whole are going to generally tend to go towards organizations that they feel most comfortable with the culture. So the real question is how well do we present that culture and how effective are we in helping people to see what our culture is and allowing them to choose that this is a place that they want to be? Because for us as a firm, I can look at our executive team and so forth. I mean, we have so little turnover. Our executive team is 30 years, 25 years, and it’s because of the fact that we’ve spent so much time on cultural alignment and making sure that our people recognize that they’re loved, they’re respected, they’re rewarded, and that they align with the culture and the values. And in the end, they think that really is the most important job of the leader.

Rusty Rueff: And I hear you speaking, Dave. We’re not talking about ping pong tables and extra food. And while all of those things are part of culture and how we work from home or not work from home, you’re talking about culture at its core, right, At the values and principles level.

David Dunkel: Exactly. And living it out, you know, simple examples. We created a foundation internally back in the early 2000. I was praying and I asked God, I said, Father, why have you blessed me? And he said to me, he said, I have blessed you that you would be a blessing to others. I didn’t recognize it at the time, but that was his covenant. And the covenant was that we have indeed been blessed to be a blessing. And so we created a foundation to help provide for people, single moms that were struggling financially, to help provide education, to work with ministries and so forth. So we put feet to the value of stewardship and living out a faith in the marketplace so that they could see what that meant. And it wasn’t just fuzzy stuff, it was real. There’s an orphanage that we work with very closely in Tampa called Hope Children’s Home, entirely supported by donations. And our folks just rallied around this place. And to see where it is today, I mean, we’ve built cottages for families to be reunited, playgrounds, I mean, just are all these things. And our people got involved. And so it was an awakening for me to recognize that it was so critical for everyone to experience, everyone to touch it. It wasn’t ping pong tables. It wasn’t bringing golden retrievers to work. It was actually living out, loving your people and letting them experience it firsthand and then sharing that love in the communities and with the ministries and the charities that were on their hearts to serve.

Rusty Rueff: So recently I was talking to someone who’s a millennial, and she was complaining about how hard it is to manage a Gen Z. And I was laughing out loud because I was like, Well, wait a minute, just that just a second ago, a hot second ago, you were the problem, you know, to the baby boomers. So we’ve got this multi-generational thing and it seems like we define these generations much shorter than we used to. I felt like in the old days, it was a big sign wave and now it’s more like an EKG, right? Ops a new generation up, ops a new generation. They’ve got their different characteristics. So can you shed any light on, you know, your insights on how about hiring and retaining this multigenerational talent? Is it that different between the generations and if there are differences. You know, how do we address those differences?

David Dunkel: Yeah, I would say that, yeah, we’ve got categories that they come up with every few years. But I would say there are very definitely differences. Probably the most significant in the millennial population has been the breakdown of the family. When you consider that 50 to 60% of the kids that are coming out now into the workforce came out of broken families, single parent households. A lot of what we do is actually to give them some fundamental discipline and accountability and love and fundamental teaching and how to conduct themselves because they didn’t grow up in a place where they had a father and a mother. They may have had one or the other. They might have had neither. So the millennial population, I think, to a large degree, has struggled with understanding their place and just having some of the fundamental values that have been taught to them, fundamental skills such as balancing a checkbook, managing money, learning how to do those things. So we actually end up parenting a lot of millennials and helping them to learn how to function as productive people in society. And at the same time, I see with the millennials that they really want to be a part of something significant. It isn’t just money, and they want to be a part of a movement. They want to be a part of something where they feel like they’re doing something of significance. And that’s where that ties in very well with the stewardship idea, because they can see that they’re doing something that’s outside of themselves and they’re making the difference for society and for other people. So indirectly, what they’re learning is really God’s design, which was to love one another as I have loved you. And they’re starting to experience that and they get to witness that in practice as different ministries that we support, different organizations, that the millennial population actually gets to experience some of the things that they probably never saw at home, never experienced because they grew up in a broken home. For sure. A very different type of leadership style is required. They also want more free time, which is interesting. They want the ability to be able to have flexibility. We actually just rolled out a whole new program. That’s what we call office occasional, which gives flexibility and choice to our people. That lets them decide whether they want to be mobile, whether they want to come into the office for meetings, whether they want to work from home. So it gives them much greater control over their life and where they spend their time. And so instead of measuring effort, we’re measuring results and we’re doing so much more effectively.

Henry Kaestner: So I love that. In a conversation on culture, you brought it to surface one of the marks of a Faith driven entrepreneurs is ministry in deed. And you hit on something that we found to be true too, and that is that a younger generation is looking for more mission, meaning and purpose. What has been your experience? You talked about this ministry that you’re working with in Tampa. How do you make it so that it is the younger generation, maybe the frontline workers entry level workers idea rather than something that comes from your favorite charity? Right. So presumably you and your wife have a favorite charity and a ministry you get involved in, and yet that may not resonate as much with all the employees. How do you let them find the ministries where they feel like they’ve really kind of bought in rather than just working at your ministry?

David Dunkel: Yeah, it’s interesting because years ago what I found is that people would come to us and say, Hey, we’d really like for K force to make a contribution to this ministry or to this charity or whatever. And so my response and our response was, rather than us giving money to something, why don’t we come alongside? So show me first where you’re spending your time and your talent and we’ll come alongside you and what you’re doing and your treasure, because it’s very easy to give away the firm’s money or other people’s money. Where is your heart and where are you spending your time and where are you applying your talents and what are you doing with your treasure? So we actually, through our stewardship program, allow people to bring their ministries, their charities to us and what it is that they would like to do. And then we have what we call firm sponsored charities that are voted on by the people. And so groups like Best Buddies and, you know, Hope Children’s Home and a bunch of different organizations which are bottom up organizations where the people themselves are the ones that actually chose them, and they are the ones who are putting their time and talent to work there. And then we come alongside them and bring some treasure to it, too.

Henry Kaestner: So I want to shift just a little bit. So that’s great. That’s very helpful. And I think it’s very actionable. I want to shift to one other thing before we bring it back to kind of the talent solutions, because I’m just very conscious of the fact that we’ve got with [….], with Rusty, who has so much experience in the very trade and the practice you are. But there’s one thing that I know that a lot of entrepreneurs are thinking about, and that is that you’re the CEO of a publicly traded company, and going public is what is thought of as the Holy Grail for so many entrepreneurs that are out there. Right? We will know that we’ve really accomplished our mission. When a banker looks at us and says we’re worthy of going public and then we go public and having taken bandwidth public, I know this the craziness of all of that, what that means, and yet everybody’s experience is different. One of the things that comes clear is you didn’t abandon your faith through that. You had chaplaincy through that. But just talk a little bit about that experience, if you can, about going public to a faith driven entrepreneurs this, listening to this and thinks that that’s when they know they will have arrived. What kind of perspective can you give that younger version of you or a younger entrepreneur that thinks that that is the destination? Just riff on that.

David Dunkel: Yeah, it’s is a great question. It’s probably surprising to most that we never really set our heart on going about going public. It was actually a vehicle by which we could accomplish our business strategy, so it was necessary for us. It was also opportunistic timing wise for us to be able to raise the capital and do the things that we needed to do in order to accomplish our strategic plan. So going public quote on quote was always seen back in the nineties as being the Holy Grail and probably the 2000s. But today I would say that if you were to ask a lot of people about it, I don’t think it has quite the same allure, if you will, that it may have in the past. And that’s largely because of the regulatory environment and the things that are required of a public company anymore. Looking back after 20 something years as a public executive, I can say that early on was a lot more fun. It was simpler. The focus was on attracting and retaining talent, serving customers, driving revenue, making earnings, deploying capital. And today it’s so much more than that. I’m sure that you guys are well versed in all of the things about DNA and ESG and all the things that are agendas. I think of a lot of the large capital purveyors, the fund managers and so forth. And so these have become distractions, I think, to a lot of public companies, because frankly, they’re draining time and resources. But looking back on my own public company experience, it was driven entirely by the need to gain liquidity for founding shareholders to raise capital for growth. It wasn’t so that we could be quote unquote public as some validation of who we were. It was just to facilitate a business model. And so for those that might be listening to this, I would just caution you to be careful and understand what your underlying motivation is for going public. If it fits the business plan and it’s necessary, great. If it’s really looking for validation of your model or looking at an opportunity to quote unquote get rich quick, I would say examine your heart.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, I concur. Okay. So other question for you. So if you look back at like 1998, K force stock is around 29 bucks. Then another year or two later it’s three, four or $5 and then it’s gone way back up and well beyond where it had been. Bandwidth came out at 20 bucks, went 298 back down to 20. What does it look like as you watch the stock price go up and then go down? How do you divorce your identity from the stock price and what the market place values you as a leader and as this company was that process like?

David Dunkel: That’s a fantastic question. It’s a great question, and it’s a funny one for me. Back in 98, research analysts report Dunkel is one of the best CEOs in the staffing industry. 2001 stock goes from 32 to 1.78 or two bucks. Dunkel is one of the worst CEOs in the staffing industry. And I laughed and just said, Oh man, how quickly we have fallen. And God use that time for me to purge pride out of my heart. Because, you know, I was starting to feel pretty good about myself, you know? Hey, man, look at what I did. Look at that. Wow. I took the company public, we got $2 billion market cap. You know, we’re all billion in revenue. We’re growing, you know, And everybody wanted to talk to me and have me speak and all this other stuff. And then poof, it was like I never existed. And I just sat there. I remember and I started laughing. I was doing my quiet time with God. And I pushed everything to the center of the table. I said, Lord, naked, I came into the world and naked. I’m going to leave it. It’s all yours. What is it that you want me to do now? And I remember him saying distinctly. He says, Good, now I can use you. So it was a golden opportunity for me to examine what my true motivations were. And there was a time that I saw people as a way to gain wealth. And then I recognized that the people themselves were the wealth and that in the kingdom of God, the real treasures, the people. And so it reoriented my values back towards the people again. And I can say that from that point forward, that God’s the wisdom and the blessing that followed was ultimately what led us to where we are now.

Henry Kaestner: Great word. Thank you.

Rusty Rueff: Dave. We’re going to get to the Lightning Round here in a moment, but I’m not going to let you get out of here without getting a little more of your wisdom on the recruiting side. So if you can think back through the different stages of your time as a CEO to the early stage of the company, the medium stage of the company, maybe to the more advanced or more mature stage, all the way to the late stage before you retired, can you impart some wisdom on the role of the CEO, in particular in recruiting for their own organization in those different stages? Because we’ve got entrepreneurs who in the early days, it’s just a couple of us. You know, we’re all very intimately involved. And then the company grows and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and they struggle with, well, how involved and what is my role? You know, I can’t interview everybody anymore. I’d love to, but I can’t. So what am I supposed to do to make this, you know, come out positively? So if you can stratify that for us, I think that’d be really helpful for our listeners.

David Dunkel: Yeah, I would say that it started originally with the people that were my direct reports, so actively involved throughout the process in the identification selection. And just as important, the development of the people that were direct reports. And then what we also called the skip level, where I would actually be involved in the identification selection and meeting with one level below the level that was directly reporting to me. I believe the culture is built from the top down. And so if I’m doing my job in the way that I’m identifying, selecting, training, developing, the people are reporting to me that they in turn will be doing the same with the people that are ultimately reporting to them. And that ripples through and becomes a part of the culture. Tenure is really important to that. I mentioned earlier that our team has largely been together for we’re talking 15, 20, 25, 30 years. So we complete each other’s sentences. We’re bound together by the common values and culture. So the ability to replicate that and in the identification and selection of people, because the culture is so entrenched, actually tends to become self-fulfilling. So one thing I had to learn personally was I had to remake myself through the different levels that we grew as an organization because I started as employee, number one had to go all the way through serving customers, letting go of customers, developing people. Hard to do because there were certain aspects of each of those jobs that I loved and didn’t want to give up. But at the same time, I recognized that for the organization to grow, it was necessary for me to grow. And then I didn’t want to be the bottleneck. So releasing roles and responsibilities, giving up those things, trusting people and realizing I couldn’t be in every meeting and didn’t have to be in every meeting. I didn’t have to be involved with every interview and didn’t have to be involved with every interview. And it became pretty clear pretty quickly who were the people who were capable of identifying and selecting the talent and doing a good job of perpetuating the culture and who couldn’t. And so if we look at our history, there’s been a period of time of pruning where we would prune back and remove people who were not going to be a part of the culture. We’re not going to be part of long term, which gave us what we called back then muscle building opportunities to grow and develop those folks who were ready to go to the next level and attract the next team.

Rusty Rueff: And did you have some kind of quality measurement? Could you look at your organization and say, okay, it’s beyond me now. I’m not involved in all of the hiring intimately, but I can tell or I can tell it’s not the quality of the organization that I want.

David Dunkel: Yeah, we would measure things. Turnover is a big indication. You know, bad leaders don’t retain people. So we would look at things like turnover, 360 evals. We use 360. We used testing we had evaluations and performance metrics. So all of the traditional tools or tools that we use, but probably the most effective one is just the intimate knowledge of the people. So the people that reported directly to me, I knew them quite well. And it wasn’t just business. It was personal. So when I would sit down with them, I talked to them about how their life is going, what’s happening in their families, how are they doing health wise, in addition to the business challenges? And I still do that today. I still have script levels with people that I both disciple and also teach business principles and so forth. So I get a real good glimpse into seeing how that culture has been replicated and is being affected today and their ability to perpetuate those values.

Rusty Rueff: That’s great. Okay, so we’re going to move to our lightning round. We love to do this. We’ve got four questions for you. Feel free to say them back to us if you want to, because I’m going to give them to you quickly and then in 90 seconds or less. You know, first thing it comes to might sound like a fun game to play. You’re okay with it.

David Dunkel: Love it.

Rusty Rueff: All right.

David Dunkel: Go for it.

Rusty Rueff: All right. Sounds good. So the first one is, what’s one thing every business leader and entrepreneur can do to better care for their employees?

David Dunkel: The best thing that I think an entrepreneur can do to care for their employees or any business leader, is to tell them they love them. And it’s got to be sincere. It’s got to be genuine. It’s got to be real. So check your own heart, because I think most people today are looking for love in all the wrong places. And when they see that someone sincerely cares for them, loves them, has their best interests at heart. That’s the most effective thing they could do.

Rusty Rueff: And you couldn’t give me a better Segway quoting another song because this one is about music. You ready? What was your favorite song to play when you were in Allman Brothers? Led Zeppelin cover band member.

David Dunkel: That’s really a great question. I got to play all kinds of great seventies music and a cover band. I had a guitar teacher who was just unbelievable. He’s passed away now. He’s with the Lord. He’s a great guy. This guy could play anything. And so when I first started learning how to play guitar, I went to him and he said to me, he goes, Well, what do you want to learn? I said, Well, I want to learn how to play Allman Brothers, Led Zeppelin […]. And so one day he came to me. He said, You are the most relentless person I have ever seen. He goes, You’ve never quit because you just keep going until you get it. I am not gifted. I have not given a musical gift. I just wanted to learn and I applied myself. So the song that I always wanted to play was Stairway to Heaven. And I can’t tell you how long it took me to learn it and how long it took me to actually be able to play it, especially the lead. So Jimmy Page is one of the best guitar players ever. So trying to figure out the lead on Stairway to Heaven is really hard. Best song I ever got to play live was playing Jessica the live version of the Allman Brothers, and I got to play with my guitar teacher with the dual leads, and that was just a thrill. I miss him. So we’ll be playing in eternity.

Henry Kaestner: That’s awesome. Have you heard the heart rendition, by the way?

David Dunkel: Yeah.

Henry Kaestner: We talked about that. So one of the great things that Rusty’s had a chance to do is he is on the board of the Kennedy Center. And I think about the heart rendition of Led Zeppelin’s Stairway to Heaven at the Kennedy Center. And so how cool would it be if you played the lead and and the Wilson sisters did the vocals?

David Dunkel: Well, when I was a little bit younger, I always thought Nancy was a little cute. So she’s also a heck of

Henry Kaestner: A little?

David Dunkel: guitar Player. Yeah, she can also smoke that guitar. I watched them play. They did a great job on Stairway to Heaven, you know, And I wanted to do Barracuda and all the other stuff that they did, but they did a fantastic job with that. So yeah, I’m getting.

Henry Kaestner: YouTube video.

David Dunkel: Yeah. By the way, I have the double neck guitar that Jimmy had and dropping down from the 12 string down to the six string and all that stuff. I mean, I spent six months trying to figure out how to do all that stuff.

Henry Kaestner: That’s super cool. Okay, we’re going to stick to the Lightning Round concept here. We’re going to answer two last ones real quickly. I know very little German. I’m German. My last name is German. But one of the things I know how to say is fire beer, dunkel bitte. And so I know that dunkel your last name means dark beer. I also know enough about your background to know that you like beer and that beer and the Law and Brawl logo even has something to do with your corporate history. What is your favorite beer? Do you have one beer? Because I can’t have more than one beer tonight. But what’s your one beer going to be? And where is it going to be?

David Dunkel: Well, I actually stopped drinking a number of years ago, and I did it as a covenant for a part of C 12. And I haven’t had a drink in probably 12 years. There will be a day that I will pick up another beer. And when I do, I don’t even think long grass sold anymore. But when I do, it will probably, you know, with all these American beers and stuff, I’ll probably just go back to the one that I started drinking when I was 18, and that was just a regular Coors beer. I just enjoyed Coors because you.

Henry Kaestner: Oh my goodness, you can get different types of beers.

Henry Kaestner: You go.

David Dunkel: You couldn’t get it on like.

Henry Kaestner: That. Smokey and the Bandit stuff.

David Dunkel: Yeah, they had a I mean, we used to have guys drive cases of it back from Colorado, so it was really good because you couldn’t have it. So of course it was the best.

Henry Kaestner: If your child is 17, this is the podcast episode for you, a little Smokey and the Bandit, a little bit of Led Zeppelin, the Allman Brothers.

David Dunkel: Coors beer.

Rusty Rueff: West of the Rockies. That’s if you only get it was the record.

Henry Kaestner: Okay, last question we have for you and this is the most important one, of course, is what are you feeling that God is speaking to you about through his word?

David Dunkel: Well, I’m a student of the word. I love spending time in the word, and I actually refer to it as abiding in the word. It took me a long time to understand what it meant to abide and to actually go into the presence of God and let God speak to me. We’re getting ready to do a ministry event where we’re teaching young adults and we’re going to teaching them abiding, discerning God’s will and effective prayer. And so I was in my office up here, and God showed me a book that was on my shelf and always meant to read and I had not read, and it was written by Andrew Murray’s Scottish guy back in the 1800s called With Christ in the School of Prayer. And so I just finished it and completed the outline of it. And probably one of the most powerful books I read in a long time in understanding what prayer actually is, how to pray, praying in the name of Christ, and what God is actually looking for in prayer. And one of the big things that jumped out at me was that we spend an awful lot of time telling God all these things that he doesn’t know while we’re praying, because certainly, you know, God’s misinformed and he needs to know all the things that we need him to do and all the problems that we want him to solve and all of these things. Well, we never stop long enough to say, Father, what is it that you have to say to me? And then listening and journaling and writing out what the father has to say. And so one of his final comments was Prayer is not a monologue, it’s a dialog. Stop and listen and let the father speak to you.

Henry Kaestner: Great word. Great word to end on. Dave, thank you very much for your story for being with us today. And may God bless you.

David Dunkel: I appreciate what you guys are doing.

— by Danielle Jones

Do you know what’s more important than making the right decision? Going where God is leading you.

In the middle of an overwhelming autumn day, God invited me to spend time with him in nature. You know what I heard him tell me? “Leave your career and position on the leadership team at a nonprofit.”

What could I do but take a leap of faith and obedience? I resigned a week later. Then, God called me back to entrepreneurship. A couple of months later, someone told me about Faith Driven Entrepreneur and I joined an inaugural Foundation Group.

The group leader asked me to write about being a Parentpreneur. So, I gladly accepted the offer and submitted an article in April. But in God’s perfect timing, it wasn’t published until July. 

On the same day, an executive producer from Florida came across my profile on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur website, and he contacted me. He and his business partner had been praying for someone to help them start up a nonprofit to serve Christian filmmakers. While I didn’t have experience in the entertainment industry, I did have a wealth of experience in nonprofit leadership. 

God often puts us into a position to launch something new. And he had equipped me with the skill-set needed for a position I never knew existed. Not only that, but he also connected me with the perfect partners to advance his Kingdom.

Here are five important lessons God has taught me about the importance of being in partnership:

1. We need to invite Christ into our meetings

   Our leadership team starts and ends each meeting with prayer, including Board of Directors’ meetings. It centers our discussion on him and ensures that our motives are for the Kingdom instead of our own desires. Recently, through Scripture about the building of the tabernacle, God impressed upon me that we were going to do all of our work through volunteers. While we weren’t sure how we were going to do it, he has provided the people to do the tasks that lay before us. We go where he is moving, even if sometimes it doesn’t make sense. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them. (Matthew 18:20)

2. Business flows when our purpose is clear

   Jesus gave everything and he calls us to give everything. The moment we go all in for Christ is a great moment, but it’s just the beginning. Life flows when our purpose is clear and when our resources align with our purpose. It’s the same with business. Our vision and purpose are: empowering Christian storytellers to produce media that shines light in a dark world. Our vision has the ability to inspire and motivate others. It is one of the most important foundational pieces of our organization—and it serves as our guiding light.

3. Laugh more, stress less

   Laughing keeps our team connected. Did you know that we are 30 times more likely to laugh with others than laugh alone? Because everyone on our team lives in a different state and all of our meetings are virtual, we have gotten good at making laughter happen! We are healthier and more productive when we laugh with one another. When we have a big win, we celebrate with laughter. When we have a stressful moment, someone on our team usually adds comedic relief.

4. Vulnerability strengthens our relationships

   Vulnerability in the workplace is the root of meaningful connection and authentic leadership. It’s amazing what we learn about our partners when we launch and run a business together—even more so when we are willing to share an emotional story. There’s a chance of getting hurt, but there’s also an opportunity for relationship and growth. Over time, our partners become our family. When we are tempted to pull apart, we pull together instead.

5. We’re all in this together

   Recently, someone told me about how they wanted to launch something to help Christian artists and realized someone else was already doing it. Instead of creating a competing organization, they contacted them to see how they could help through prayer, encouragement and doing. It takes courage to set aside our personal desires and follow God’s lead. Has God laid something on your heart and the same something on the hearts of others? Has he led you to contact someone that you don’t know? Has he told you to ask for help? It’s no coincidence. Connect with those individuals and strike up a conversation to discover how you can partner to build the Kingdom together. There is power in working together with a shared faith toward a common goal.

Faith Driven Entrepreneur reminds us that in partnership, we have the chance to link arms with people who share a relationship with Christ and who want to see His name glorified in all things. When that motivation lies behind two or more people leading an organization, there are no limits to where the work can go!

About the author: Danielle Jones is the Executive Director of Ascension Media Partners, a nonprofit that empowers Christian storytellers to produce media that shines light in a dark world. Danielle lives in Michigan where she also volunteers for Faith Driven Entrepreneur, coaches children’s soccer, and leads a ministry that brings together Christian women for prayer, encouragement, and studying scripture.

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In this episode, she has an open discussion with Henry and a good friend of the show, Paula Faris, who has plenty of insight to share about the topic as well. Throughout the conversation, the three discuss the competitive advantages to female leaders, creative solutions to big problems, and how male founders can play a role in empowering female leaders to create lasting impact.

Check out this riveting episode and don’t forget to follow along and rate the podcast on your favorite streaming platform.

Episode Transcript

Growing up, Jo Saxton assumed that most women worked outside the home. Her mother and grandmother modeled grit and hustle for her at an early age. 

She even says they had to “force” her grandma to retire at age 97. There was never any doubt that women could do great work in the marketplace in Jo’s family. 

Now, as a leader and entrepreneur herself, she is passionate about making that perspective a norm for people around the world by equipping and inspiring women leaders to rise up to their God-given calling.

In this episode, she has an open discussion with Henry and a good friend of the show, Paula Faris, who has plenty of insight to share about the topic as well. Throughout the conversation, the three discuss the competitive advantages to female leaders, creative solutions to big problems, and how male founders can play a role in empowering female leaders to create lasting impact.

Check out this riveting episode and don’t forget to follow along and rate the podcast on your favorite streaming platform.