Everyone has different end goals for what they’d call ultimate success, but most of us are chasing after something.

For many entrepreneurs, “going public” stands as the ultimate sign that you’ve truly “made it.” And if that’s the case, then today’s guest, Renji Bijoy, is on the verge of making it.

But that’s not what keeps him going.

Renji is the CEO and Founder of Immersed, the company behind the world’s most used AR/VR app on the planet. In an industry full of potential dangers where Christians are quick to back away, Renji and his team have decided to lean in.

In this conversation, Renji’s talks with Joey Honescko and Henry Kaestner about what it’s like to lead and innovate in a new, emerging industry. He and Henry will also share how their faith has kept them grounded in the highs and lows that come with worldly success.

Listen to Renji’s first episode: https://www.faithdrivenentrepreneur.org/podcast-inventory/episode-161-the-immersed-story-with-renji-bijoy

Learn more about Immersed:

https://immersed.com/

Episode Transcript

Joseph Honescko: Every entrepreneur has different end goals for what they'd call success. But all of us are chasing after something. For many of us, going public stands as this ultimate sign that you've truly made it. And if that were true, then today's guest, Renji Bijoy would be on the verge of making it. But that's not what keeps him motivated. Renji is the CEO and founder of Immersed, the company behind the world's most used AR/VR app. In an industry full of potential dangers where Christians are quick to back away, Renji and his team have decided to lean in.

Renji Bijoy: There's this perspective that AR VR looks like sort of this dystopian, escapist whole, but I think a VR world that's led by believers can look very, very different.

Joseph Honescko: In this conversation, Renji is going to talk with me and Henry Kaestner about what it's like to lead and innovate in a new, emerging industry. He and Henry will also share how their faith has helped them stay grounded in the highs and the lows that come with worldly success. He'll talk about the challenges, the opportunities, and the ways that he's continued to be open about his faith in the midst of a growing business. I'm Joey Honescko, and you're listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Let's get into it. Welcome back, everyone to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. I'm Joey Honescko and I'm joined by my co-host for the day, Henry Kaestner. Henry, how are you doing, man?

Henry Kaestner: Joey I'm doing awesome. I know that you're going through thunderstorms in Texas, and it just made me think that today we're going to be in Texas, not only because you're in Dallas, but because we're going to Austin, one of my favorite cities on the planet.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, absolutely. We got Renji Bijoy with us. Renji, man, how are you doing calling in from Austin?

Renji Bijoy: Yeah, doing well man. Thanks so much for having me on here.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah. It was over 100 episodes ago that we had you on, which is crazy, but, yeah, we talked a lot about kind of your faith journey and some of the things there, but people should go back and listen to it, to hear some of that context. You kind of gave us the early overview of immersed back then, but even in those two years since then, I imagine a lot has changed, not only for immersed. As you guys are considering going public. I'm going to talk about that in a second, but also just in the space. I mean, I feel like it's grown so rapidly. What has it been like adapting to these fast paced changes? How have you kind of managed some of that?

Renji Bijoy: Yeah, well, I will say the fast paced changes have always been a tailwind. It's always been momentum that's only helped us. But we've had to be patient. Right. And I guess that is the case for a lot of companies. Like for example, OpenAI has been around for what, 6 or 7 years as well. And things really turned around for them just in the past couple of years. Right? So like, you know, people can call it an overnight success, but it's a seven year overnight success, so to speak. Right? So when we entered the VR space, first off, I had no idea what the history of VR was. And the reason why that matters is here. I'll just kind of say it in two seconds. Like the company called Oculus that Palmer Luckey started. He founded it in 2012. Two years later, in 2014, he sold it to Facebook, now called meta, for $3 billion. And by the way, he's my age, right? So back then he was, what, 23 or something at 23 years old. And he worked on it at meta for the, you know, next following couple of years between I think 2014 to 2016. But what's so crazy is as long as you tacked on the letters VR at the end of your startup's name, you would automatically get funding back in 2014, 2015. And it turns out by 2016, all of these startups would rise and fall. And that left pretty much no VC money left for VR in 2017. By the time I entered the space, so little did I know I entered the VR trough of sorrow. And little did I know we would be on this journey for the next seven years to try to get to a point where VR can be at least somewhat attractive to the general public. So back in 2017, when I went through Techstars, based in Chicago, I didn't know that Zuckerberg was being overzealous and overambitious. On his timeline for AR VR. He had mentioned that by 2020, we're all going to be using glasses instead of smartphones. And you know, we're already in 2024 and that's still not the case. And so I think at the end of the day, it's been really cool to see how the Lord has constantly given us the conviction of just one foot in front, the other. Stay focused, steadfast, keep executing. And at the end of the day, he'll have his way. So there are many times in the past, I would say, 4 or 5 years, where our product has gotten to the point where it has the most amount of user usage in AR, VR, period. I don't know if you guys know that because ours is not a game, ours is a work product and people have to use it 30, 40, 50 hours a week plus every week. And because of that, we've accumulated the most amount of user data in all of AR, VR. And so this is why a couple of years ago, meta had wanted to acquire us. You know, last year Google had sort of bring up the conversation around acquisition, but I also kept kicking the can down the road with that conversation, too, because I think in a day like if there was a tech giant that was run by believers, I think that our culture would probably look very different. And so, like my conviction over the years has gone from, you know, maybe someday I'll just sell this thing and go work on the next thing to now, man, I don't know if I could sell this because it's starting to have more and more reach, more and more impact. And if, Lord willing, someday this becomes the next Google or Facebook or Microsoft or whatever, and I would really love for us to be able to impact culture with sort of this next generation of computing, aka spatial computing, to be run by believers. And, you know, we'll see what the Lord does. But that's kind of what the heart of the mission is behind this.

Henry Kaestner: I love that heart of vision, and I want to come back to that. And that's the more important thing. A practical thing is you're talking about the Trough of Sorrows. I haven't heard that term before, but it's I think back to our own entrepreneurial journey of bandwidth. We started in 99, but it wasn't really until 2001 that we got our [...] right. As Global Crossing was imploding, right as the dotcom bust was happening and Pets.com and billions of dollars were being lost. And that was the time we got in. And through the grace of God, it worked out great. Talk to us a little bit more about this sense of having a faithful presence in AR, VR. We hear all sorts of different things about what this alternate reality might look like and what it might be, and what technology will allow us to do and imagine. See, and some of it's virtuous and a lot of it is not. Yeah. What does it look like when you start contemplating these things in the rap that the space gets? What does it look like to have a faithful presence there?

Renji Bijoy: Yeah. I mean, I think even with the advent of the internet or different devices that come out like iPhones and iPads and, you know, kids get addicted to it and all these sort of negative things happen. And there's a lot of good things too. But what I will say is a trend that I've noticed is especially in the church world, is that oftentimes we put our moralistic flag in the ground saying, we're going to boycott this thing, we're not going to adopt this. And then 10 or 15 years later, they do adopt it because society does, and they want to be part of society, and then they're just late to the game and things like the internet or things like the iPhone or screen time or now VR, we can see that a lot of people, they're afraid of what they don't understand. And oftentimes before they're able to have any sort of level of impact or influence, they boycott it and then join 15 years later hoping they could have some level of influence. And so, my conviction has been it's important to get early into this space so that we can be the ones who guide and of course, correct it because we are the ones setting the standard. And so, yes, I understand that there's this perspective that AR, VR based on science fiction looks like sort of this dystopian, escapist whole and kind of your closet and you don't eat, you know, you don't have any sunlight. Back in a day like that is what a VR world run by the world looks like. But I think of AR VR world that's led by believers can look very, very different. And candidly, I'm already seeing that now. Right where again, I'm going to repeat the stat immersed, which is a virtual office product, is the world's most used AR VR app on the planet. And guess what? It's run by believers. And so I have a lot of hope and excitement for what this next generation of computing looks like. Because yes, there's a world in which maybe Apple figures out how to get the most amount of user usage and adoption, and then they get to set the standards. Or there's a world in which I believe Immersed could do that. And what that means is we can do a lot of things to fight how people use these technologies for things like sex trafficking, for things like black market, selling organs, the things that are very selling, I guess, terrorist activity. There's a lot of things that we can do as believers that because our convictions are rooted in Scripture and where the Lord is leading us, as opposed to what our public perception or public image looks like, or how much money we can make. At the end of the day, I feel like a company led by the Holy Spirit would probably have a pretty dramatically different outcome and effect on society than a company that's just mainly chasing money.

Joseph Honescko: So one thing you're talking about here is this idea of the Trough of Sorrows. You were walking through this faithfully. Even in the midst of those struggles. You mentioned this idea of it looking like an overnight success when it's really a seven year overnight success. And something that it sounds like you've seen is that that faithful endurance, you've seen it lead to some success. Now that you're at this place, you're considering going public. You're in that process. So how are you continuing to think about faithfulness as you grow in success and as you grow in this place where you're taking the company public?

Renji Bijoy: Yeah. I mean, I think that it really starts with knowing who you are and knowing who God is and knowing that I'll say this massive chasm in regards to holiness and knowing that I am no better than anyone else. So when it comes to us building, immersed, when it comes to us, getting to, you know, build a company that may potentially be listed on the Nasdaq in a month from now. That's something that might, on paper, sound prestigious, might sound fun. Well, first off, I know it's going to be a lot of hard work, but also at the same time, like, I know who I am. I'm a person who was separated from the Lord and the fact that he saved me. I'm not owed anything more than the next person, and I'm not anything more than the next person, so I don't know. I think that the way that we lead this company, the way that we hire, the way that we not only promote a certain type of culture internally at the company, but also protect that culture, and then how that spills over into the way that we interact with our users on our discord community, or how that leads to how we interact with potential partners or customers or enterprise customers or whatever. The reason why, for example, we even have an immersed community on discord where our users will literally fly to each other's cities to hang out with each other and talk about the immerse community. Like, it's crazy how the Lord really sort of gives us a redeemed mind and heart to understand how to love people, and I think that that's a very overlooked thing in business or even in the Christian world where it's crazy. It's been such a huge advantage to be a believer in building companies. So what I mean by that is, you know, even, for example, when I was 24 and I first started this company, I guess for whatever reason, maybe part of it is the beard. But some people thought I was older than I was, but I think it was mainly because of the fact that, like my personal conviction, for example, is I just don't use profanity the way that I conduct myself when I'm around other people, and also just in general, my convictions, it makes people think that I'm older than I am, or at least especially when I was 24 and they thought I was 40. But you know, that does not because I'm trying to portray some sort of mature image, but instead it's just the intrinsic convictions that the Lord has given me of, hey, like, don't tear other people down, don't yell at other people. All those types of things that we as believers seem like it's common sense, but actually is foolishness to the world, right? Like when I've been watching these sort of Steve Jobs movies, and I'm seeing how he used to like, shout at people and, you know, they'd work through the middle of the night and he's still angry at them. It's like, well, he wouldn't have really known better because the Lord didn't open his eyes to see those things. And then you kind of fast forward to, you know, 2011, when he had passed his funeral, was a very I see, I was grieving because here's a person who had an insane, lasting impact, to the point where everyone, even on this podcast, is using his products even today. And yet, when it comes to the relationships of the people that he had around him and then also his standing with God, I have no idea where he ended up on that. Like I know that he was seeking, but I don't know where he ended up on that. And so when we're building this company and you know, you can call it success. Sure. I think the part that our team is really excited about is the way that we get to influence culture. We get to influence the way that people use technology, and we get to build things that other people get to use, especially with a redemptive outcome or desire in mind. So I'd say kind of going back to your original question, I think that the heart that the Lord has given myself and other believers on the team in regards to who we are, the grace that he's given us, and this mission that we're now given the privilege of being on. Right is I mean, if you go back to acts 5:41, they counted themselves to be kind of worthy to be shamed for his name. And so, like when I think about immersed, this is a privilege that we get to even build this company and be able to take this thing public where I'll be ridiculed, I'll be mocked, I'll have people who will be shorting our stock. One of the co-founders of Airbnb told me that, going public is it's almost like you're signing up to get sued. Just expect it. And, you know, I've never been in a lawsuit. I'm not looking forward if that ends up happening. But at the end of the day, if this is the calling of the Lord's placing on our lives for let's do it in a way that honors him and let's be okay with what the results are. Because in the end, even though it might be tiring right now, in the end we will enter his eternal rest forever. And I want to look back on my life and know that I was more well utilized than well-rested, if that makes sense.

Joseph Honescko: Yeah, totally. And it sounds like I mean, so much of what you're saying starts with what you started that answer with, with this idea of the identity in Christ, of knowing exactly who you are. And I love that you said there's this huge advantage to being a believer in business, because even something as exciting and as big as going public, like the co-founder of Airbnb said, it's going to come with all sorts of challenges. And Henry, I was thinking about a story you told me recently where there were. Days when bandwidth went public and, you were just checking the stock prices every day, and you saw giant drops. And I imagine that you needed that identity. You needed to be rooted in Christ to face those kinds of challenges. And so from your experience, even Henry going public, seeing that, how did the identity in Christ sort of power you through the excitement, but also those lows?

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I'm remarkably grateful for the experience because it helped me to really test on something that I always believed to be true, but wasn't 100% sure identity in Christ. And, you know, we've talked to Jeremy Lin before about what is your identity if you're staying on a free throw line, getting ready in the middle of Linsanity to sing some free throws against Kobe Bryant, if you're identity is is a professional basketball player, you're in big trouble, right? Because you miss those and it's all over. And you see in some of those mental sports like golf, right. Say golf is 90% mental and the other 10%, you know, the other 10% is less mental. It's all about what's right. And those types of things and free throws are one of those things. Having a faith in an identity and something else is really important. And absolutely, as a publicly traded CEO, I would have told you my identity was in Christ before going public. And yet, man, there's nothing like getting tested when the stock goes up 198 and then over the course the next three years or so, it goes down to nine. 198 to 9. While the company's growing. Nothing wrong with the company. Company's still growing, getting increasingly, you know, just doing better on the top line in the bottom line. And company goes from 198 to 9, and you see it go down two days and up a day and down two days and up a day. And it's a wonderful, beautiful test. Now, through grace of God, the company continues to grow top line and bottom line. And the stock is no longer nine. And so there's the blessing and a curse. The blessing is is this constant reminder because all of a sudden you look at it and you think your identity. There's never been a point in time where Renji you've been able to say, okay, my net worth is exactly this, and I wonder how my net worth changed today. When you go public, you can see how your net worth changed over the last five minutes. And that's a weird thing, especially again, if it goes and Lord willing well for Renji. But when it goes from 198 to 9, it's really something else and it becomes a great gift. Character is built through adversity, but I Renji, I'm super excited for it because going public also allows you to have more of a yes, a public face. And for an entrepreneur like yourself that has this redemptive focus on an industry that you are in, it is something that will allow other people to participate in the work that God is doing through immersed, to be able to be strapped in a mask with you. And that's really exciting. And that can be really encouraging.

Renji Bijoy: Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up as far as like how your net worth was impacted day by day, minute by minute. And I don't know, like for me, I'm not looking forward to the days where people poke fun at it. For example, like I all the times, the articles about how Elon Musk's net worth, you know, dropped by $100 billion in a few months, and it's like, well, first off, that's not like him. Macroeconomic conditions are not really his faults, but obviously that hurts him. Right? It's funny how like all of the like say you have, you know, 99 compliments and you have one negative comment. That one negative comment really sticks with you. And it really, you know, lives rent free in your mind is just really a, practice of the Lord. Sort of like a test of the Lord teaching you to be patient and and I can't even imagine in comparison, when Jesus died and he. Well, even before that, he when he was being tortured and spat on by his own creation, that was mocking and ridiculing him. I'm like, man, I haven't experienced anything to that extent. And so I was going public. I'm like, oh, you know, maybe there's certain aspects of this that's going to be pretty tough and difficult, but I think that that's not something the Lord can't sympathize with. And I think that that's in a day if the goal here is the mission at hand, and if the goal here is for more souls to be one and for all of us to be in heaven with him, then that's where my eyes got to be set on. Not necessarily my net worth or what people say about me.

Henry Kaestner: When are you talking about more souls being in heaven? You sure? Just a little bit. When we talked years and years ago, talked a little bit about sharing your faith winsomely in the workforce among founders, coworkers, etc., have you seen as you continue to scale, how does that operate? You're more of a public guy right now. Surely there's more pressure to kind of put a lid on those things. What does that look like for you?

Renji Bijoy: It's it's funny you say that because I always feel like the more successful that the Lord allows me to be, the more YOLO ish my mindset becomes. Meaning I'm more and more vocal about my faith. I'm like, look, I made it this far. And yeah, well, I guess what I mean by that is like, I mean, even just the past year or two, maybe a year and a half, there's just been a couple of other founders who've come to the faith, not even by my direct discipleship or interactions. It's more almost in spite of me meaning, you know, one person I know, he moved to Austin from California, and he randomly saw me at a coffee shop where I was sort of doing like a Bible study group with some guys, and he walked up. He's like, yo, dude, I didn't realize you live in Austin. I was like, yeah, I had no idea. You live in Austin.He was just like, yeah, I just move here and he's like, what are you guys reading? I was like, it's kind of awkward, but I read this book called Radical by David Platt, and it's about evangelism. And he's like, oh, interesting. You mean like getting other people to convert to Christianity? I was like, I mean, I guess you can look at it that way if you want. But the way I look at it is, you know, the fact that the Lord had saved us and opened up our eyes to see the world the way that he sees it, or at least try to like. Yeah, I mean, that's my hope for everyone is to not live the life that they were born with, but rather, you know, essentially be born again. And so it's funny because after that conversation, I went to my LinkedIn profile and you saw kind of my profession of faith that's on there and on his own without me pushing him at all, without me even knowing. He started reading the Bible on his own. And maybe three months later he texted me saying, hey Renji, by the way, I just, you know, randomly decided to start reading the Bible. And I checked out Matthew and Mark and I think he read some of the acts. He's like, what books should I read next. I was I was like, well, what the heck? Why are you even reading to begin with? Because I don't know. I just saw it on your profile and I was so confused as to why you care about this stuff, when I always thought that being a Christian meant that you were dumb. Meaning? Like he just thought that it was more of like a a Southern American thing, right? That they believe in it just because their parents told him to. But they're not intellectual enough to realize that there is no God. And I guess because he thought that I was a decent founder, decent at what I do for a living. He thought maybe there's something more to Christianity than you thought. And so all that to say, like months later, he ended up coming to the faith and one of my employees on my team, who was also a believer, he met this guy like three years ago and then recently saw him again after not seeing him for like three years. And he's like, dude, that guy is a totally different person. What the heck happened? I was like, dude, all that happened was the Lord literally had him go to my LinkedIn profile and that made him start reading the Bible. And then the Lord saved them. So all that to say, like stories like that, it's not even me bringing anyone's the faith. I can't open up anyone's eyes. It's really the Lord doing the work and me just staying faithful in the present. And I get to partake in the joy that it is to win another brother whose eyes are finally opened and finally sees a purpose to life.

Joseph Honescko: What a powerful story, Renji. That's incredible to hear that in all your answers. There's such a groundedness in your identity in Christ. There's such a humility. And I'm thinking about the fact that many of our listeners are not going to ever go public. They're never going to have something that maybe raises the largest funds, but they all have these different measures of success, and pride sneaks its way into all of our lives, regardless of where we're at. And I wonder if you would be able to say just something about like, how do you fight against that pride?

Renji Bijoy: Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Sorry. It's like fight tears when thinking about this. Like, for me, when I think about my sin and I think about what, like times were in the moments, I don't realize that what I just said was prideful or I don't realize what I said was not gentle to like an employee or whatever it is. And I go to my Lord and I realize who I am and who he is and who he calls me to be. And the Holy Spirit really humbles me. If that makes sense, it really helps put things into perspective. I generally use a lot of like sort of overly aggressive illustrations, but like, I feel like I just like get punched in the face of like, yo, chill out, you are my child, just like anyone else's. And at the end of the day, the Lord is the one who, yeah, instills humility in people. And I would not say that there's any sort of quote unquote, practical behavioral modifications that will ever be enough to get you to bear the Holy Spirit's driven fruit. There's no way to do that consistently for your entire life, because only Jesus, the only one who ever lived a perfect life. And so, I don't know, like, it's hard for me to even talk to other founders about how do you stay humble? How do you love people on your team, or how do you woo people based off of character versus money? And I'm like, my only answer, dude, is you need to have a relationship with God who is empowering you to walk by the Holy Spirit. So all that to say, like the only practical thing I can say is run back to the Lord constantly. What I mean by that is like if he is not the closest person to you, if he is not the one who you talk to throughout the day, if he's not the one that you are, always put it this way, like people ask me, well, you know, what are your spiritual disciplines? What are your routines and your practices? And I'm like, honestly, at the end of day, man, like moment by moment, I need the Lord. And that's what I would focus on is how do you grow in your understanding for that? Or rather, how do you grow in your awareness of the reality of that? Because if you don't believe that, it's just because you're blind, you don't see it. And so when it comes to my relationship with God. It's not about necessarily. Only in the mornings I open up scripture and I read it, or certain times of the day I pray or whatever. It's really a dependance on the Lord, because he's the one who will teach you how to operate as a strong leader. He's the one who will teach you how to love people. He's the one who teach you why you should be humble. And so when it comes to me even talking to founders, believer or not, I can almost never give them anything other than you just need to cling to the Lord. Who's the one who created you, who knew you when you were a a baby, a child, who knew you when you went through difficult situations in your childhood, in high school and college, and now in your career? The only person who knows you to the depths of your soul and loves you more than you will ever love yourself. He is the only one who could ever teach you how to live life properly. And so yeah, my only practical advice is run to the Lord because he loves you and wants you to, and also because he's the only one who can empower you to live this life to its fullest.

Henry Kaestner: I am nothing without the Lord Jesus. I'm defined by his purpose for me. He will lead me wherever he needs me to be, and I will gladly follow. Those are not my words. Those are Renji's words from the About Us section. The about section on LinkedIn. Renji, you've in public now we're looking in the future. You've been public for six months. Fidelity calls up and says, you know, we really like we really like your company a lot. But man, that statement on the about for LinkedIn, we just can't do that. Can't do that. I can't see our shareholders taking a look at companies we invest in. And then I see somebody that is subscribing to a faith tradition that's exclusive and offensive. And so we're just, you know, we could be in for a couple of million shares, but we're just not going to be able to be in. What do you say?

Renji Bijoy: I can see you find another company to invest in. I'm going to say like like, look, I mean, first, I think that I think in a day, like. As much as I can try to use man's money and efforts and strategies, this thing cannot and will not be any, existentially impactful and successful if it's not the Lord's will. And so whether it be fidelity, whether it be Elon Musk himself, whoever, right. The dude with the most money or I guess now, Jeff Bezos, apparently it doesn't matter who wants to give us money. It doesn't matter even if the company runs out of money, like the Lord has already shown me that this company will live and or die by his will. And I'm okay with that. And if there's a company like fidelity or anyone else who wants to invest, with a CEO who is not a believer, then that's fine. That's not us. But I think in a day like, yeah, I'd rather quit my job than be in a position where I have to hide my face, hide the relationship I have with the Lord. Yeah, I'm not super worried about that. Because again, at the end of it all, like, I'm not trying to be the richest person in the grave, right? I'm trying to be a person who's brought souls with me to heaven.

Henry Kaestner: True that. Super motivating. Okay, we like to close out every one of these about what you're hearing from God through His Word. Believing Scripture is alive, that God continues to speak to us through it. Anything pop out from your reading? Daily, weekly? Monthly? Something recent that's just like, you know what? I feel like God speaking to me through that passage.

Renji Bijoy: Yeah, I feel like I really struggle to read scripture and it not, like, pierce me in my soul. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is sort of later in John ten, I guess people oftentimes sort of read over this. They mainly think about John ten. As you know, Jesus is the good Shepherd and you know, his sheep know his voice. And but there's a part kind of midway through where he specifically talks about how he lays his life down on his own accord. No one takes his life from him. And when you think about the fact that he is the sovereign creator of the universe, he's not a victim of anything. He can do whatever he wants. And even just thinking about how the Great Commission. Right. Matthew 28:19 I think of how all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus. And at the end of that section he says, and I will be with you till the end of the age. And you think about how. Man as a believer, as a child of God. What am I afraid of here on earth? If he is given all authority in heaven and on earth, and he will be with me until the end of the age. If no one takes his life from him, but he lays it down of his own accord. And that's the God that I serve. Going public is easy. Building a company like this, that is to change the trajectory of the world's culture. If this is to become like the next iPhone or whatever it is, that there are billions of devices that are being adopted all around the world, and there is government entities that are pursuing us because they want to take control of it. And I'm having to speak in front of the Supreme Courts to answer first things, even answer for my faith. I will be the first person the Lord knows. I will be the first person that is willing to lay down their life for that. I will be the first person that will see it as a joyful thing, to count myself worthy, to be shamed for his name. And he knows that, as Peter said, that he would lay his life down for him. Peter also denied him three times. And so when I think about how. Jesus came back to Peter and said, Peter, do you love me? Three times. And he said, well, then feed my sheep. I identify with Peter because I know that I am faulty. I know that I am fallible, I know that I'm not perfect and I'm not God's best child. I'm not the best disciple. But all I know is all I have is him. I don't have a company. I don't have wealth. I have nothing here on earth. But I do have the Lord. And because I have him, I have everything. And that's all I ever need. And my hope is that that's what every founder would ever want. My hope is that their eyes see that I know that the Lord can perform those miracles. And so that's my hope and prayer.

Joseph Honescko: Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn't have to be. We've got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms, and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There's no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at Faith Driven entrepreneur.org.

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