In this conversation, Jordan Raynor challenges the belief that the only way our work matters for eternity is if we use it to share the gospel, arguing that our work has intrinsic value to God. 

He’ll build upon half truths to make them whole by tracing the story back to what he calls “the first commission:” the command to be ambassadors for God on this earth, creating culture in ways that honor and glorify him now and for all eternity. 

Entrepreneur, this is your calling. To create and innovate for God’s kingdom under his power and for his glory. 

Jordan also explores the concept of the unabridged gospel, emphasizing that Jesus came to redeem all things, not just our souls. He’ll encourage Faith Driven Entrepreneurs to be intentional and sacrificial in their work, and to focus on eternal rewards rather than temporary achievements. 

• Find the book here

• Hear Jordan’s first episode with us here

Episode Transcript

Jospeh Honescko: Every entrepreneur knows their work matters here and now. But how do the businesses we build have an eternal impact? Today's guest, Jordan Raynor, thinks a lot of the teaching on this question has revolved around what he calls half truths. Things like. Your company matters only as much as it helps others come to Christ or your sole priority is to live out the Great Commission to make disciples. For many entrepreneurs, this view of calling has left us scratching our heads. We know evangelism is a fundamental part of the Christian life, but if that's all there is, why does God give us the desires and gifts to build in the first place? Wouldn't all other work just be a distraction? We don't think so. And in this episode, Jordan's going to unpack the ideas behind his new book, the Sacredness of Secular Work to show how all we do matters because of the impact it has now on earth and later in Heaven, he'll build upon familiar half truths to make them whole. By tracing the story back to what he calls the first commission, the command to be ambassadors for God, creating culture in ways that honor and glorify him. I'm Joey Honescko, and you're listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Let's get into it.

Rusty Rueff: You know, Joey. I just got to say something. Dude, you don't look. You don't sound like Henry or William. Which means you can't talk about Alabama football. You can't talk about Baltimore crabs. You can't talk about ice cream. So what? What's the deal?

Jospeh Honescko: No, it's a good question. As I said, I am, Joey Honescko, which by definition makes me not William or Henry. But I will say that I have a pint of Jeni's ice cream in my freezer right now as we speak, so I do feel like I get to carry. Now, the Alabama football can't bring any of that. But what we're doing is we've mentioned this a couple times on the show, but we are mixing up some things this year. And one of the things that we realized is that we had Rusty, Henry and William and every episode, we squished them into a room together and asked all three of them to be people that just asked questions, and they have so much insight to give that we thought, hey, why don't you put someone asking questions? And then we'll have a little bit more that we can hear from Rusty, Henry and William at various times, amongst others that will come on as co-host. So in last week's episode, you heard Henry. Then this week we have Rusty to interview Jordan Raynor. Jordan, welcome back to the show. Man.

Jordan Raynor: Joey. Rusty, it's good to be back.

Jospeh Honescko: Yeah, we've had you on. It was. It was a little bit ago. At this point, I was looking back as episode 219, where we talked about your children's book creator in you, and then you also spoke at the 2022 conference. But this one, we're going to dive into the sacredness of secular work. It's a very thoughtful book. It's a very theologically rich book. It's out today, actually, but you've got some you've got some hot takes in this book, and you've got a couple things that it seems like maybe have ruffled some feathers. So just kind of talk to us a little bit about that and how you've been thinking through some of some of the reactions to what you have here.

Jordan Raynor: Oh man. Yeah, I'd be happy to. You call them hot takes. I would call them ancient takes. Right. Yeah. You know, so the core idea of this book in the question is me and Joey, I am a faith driven entrepreneur myself. I talk to a lot of faith driven entrepreneurs. And when you tell a faith driven entrepreneur that, hey, your work that you're doing Monday through Friday matters for eternity, the most typical response you hear is, oh, Amen. My job is my mission field, right? And listen, that is, of course, gloriously true. But if the only way our work matters for eternity is because we can use our jobs to share the gospel with customers and coworkers, then frankly, the vast majority of us are wasting the vast majority of our time. Right? Like, let's be absurdly generous and say that the average faith driven entrepreneur spends three hours a month walking team members through the Roman's road. That means roughly 1% of your time matters for eternity. And I don't know about you guys, but like, I find that to be deeply depressing. More importantly, it's deeply unbiblical, right? And I would argue it's rooted in this very, very modern idea that the Great Commission, which before I'm labeled a heretic, let me say really clearly, is indeed great, is a non optional command for every single follower of Jesus Christ. I think the lie again, the brand new lie in church history is that the Great Commission is the singular mission of the Christian life, and we just don't see evidence for that in Scripture. And I would argue that there are a lot of dangers in treating the Great Commission as the only commission we can get into that if you want. That's what's been ruffling some feathers. But man, I've been encouraged, honestly, Joey, that once people get into the nuance of this conversation across theological lines, I've got Southern Baptist, I got Presbyterians that I got met that's been like, yeah, no, that's right. And this could not be more important for how we define which work is sacred and which work matters for eternity.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. That whole idea of the Great Commission, as you say in the book, was just a heading right?

Jordan Raynor: Yeah. So let's do real quick history lesson here. Let's, you know, nerd up our glasses here. So check this out. Three faculty members at the uber conservative Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary said, quote, before at least the 17th century, the Great Commission was largely ignored when discussing the church's missional assignment. End quote. So how did we get here? How do we get to this place where we think that saving souls is the only thing that matters? And I would argue that one of the ways we got here is through this manmade heading called the Great Commission. That term is not a part of the inherent Word of God. It's simply the catchiest marketing slogan of the modern bishops movement. Now, again, the command itself is absolutely a part of the inherent Word of God. The Great Commission is not an option to be considered. As Hudson Taylor said accurately. It is a command to be obeyed. But here's the irony. I actually think by elevating one of Jesus's commands to the singular all important one, we ironically become less effective at the Great Commission. Right. Because we got faith driven entrepreneurs going to church every Sunday, feeling guilty that they are not, quote unquote, going to all nations to make disciples, when in reality it's faith driven entrepreneurs who are most likely to make disciples in our post-Christian context even more likely than the pastor on their stage or the missionary on the refrigerator.

Jospeh Honescko: So talk to us a little bit about that real quick. Jordan, in your book, you call it the first commission, but talk about a little bit of that role that entrepreneurs play and how they are making more disciples in a post-Christian world.

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of different directions we could take that. Let's just be really explicit about this first commission, this first, literally the first thing God asked humankind to do in Genesis 1:26 through 28. This is called the cultural mandate by a lot of people. I prefer the first commission, this command, to be fruitful and increase in number to fill the earth and subdue it and rule over it with God and for his glory. Right. What does this text mean? This means more than procreation, right? This is a call to cultural creation, to civilization. Wayne Grudem, the general editor of the ESV Study Bible, says this, the first commission is, quote, to make the earth more useful for human beings benefit and enjoyment end quote. And isn't that exactly what you do founder? As you and your team seek to leverage software in the raw materials of this world to make this world more useful for other human beings benefit and enjoyment. The problem is, this nasty little lie, I would argue, is crept up in the church in the last couple hundred years that says that somehow the Great Commission has replaced the first commission. That's the lie. Great Commission is great, but we're still called to the first commission after God sends a flood to Noah and his family, Noah and his family get off the boat in Genesis 9:1. What does God say to them? Be fruitful and increase in numbers. Fill the earth with culture and civilization. The first commission is never once retracted by God. In fact, it's part of our eternal vocation on the new earth, where Isaiah 65 says, we're going to build houses and plant vineyards and long enjoy the work of our hands. And so our work today leading into the first Commission has intrinsic value to God. It doesn't just have value. When we leverage that work to some instrumental spiritual end, it is an end and a good and a form of worship in and of itself.

Rusty Rueff: There's also another piece of not only the what, but also the how, right? You know, the scriptures full of how we're to go about now fulfilling, as you say, the first commission. As entrepreneurs who are about creating new things and figuring out ways to do it better to solve problems. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, the how and how the how might work in this first commission?

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, man. So in a couple of weeks, we've got Valentine's Day coming up. Everybody's social media feeds are going to be cluttered with, all sorts of Valentine's Day messages and a really important passage. Scripture. First Corinthians, chapter 13, the famous love passage that we read at all of our weddings. You know what's interesting to me, though? Marriage is not the context that Paul is writing that passage in. The context of First Corinthians 13 is the stewardship of spiritual and vocational gifts. That's what he's talking about in chapter 12. And then in 12:31 he says, hey, I'll show you the most excellent way to steward those vocational gifts. You ready for it? Love is patient. Love is kind. Love to love is not self-seeking. Love is not easily angered. So maybe we could just sit with that passage alone, Rusty, and do a whole season of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast on what does the how look like? What does the how look like for faith driven entrepreneur to love people in distinctly Christlike ways. Man, that's just one place to start. Go to the beatitudes. Go anywhere in the New Testament and we're going to see the how. And I think it's time that we as faith driven entrepreneurs stop not stop asking, but ask less questions about the what of what we do.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, yeah.

Jordan Raynor: Ask even less question about the why of what we do. Because we are aiming for the glory of God and the good version and ask more questions about, okay, let's roll up our sleeves and figure out how to do this sacred work in a distinctively Christlike way. Because, man, I just I spent so many years as a tech entrepreneur feeling half alive Monday through Friday. All right. Because I didn't feel the permission to love my work that God created me to do. But think about the irony of this, right? We're just talking about the first commission. Genesis one work was God's first gift to humanity, right? And so we are glorifying God as we lean into the first commission. And the thing he made us to do is faith driven entrepreneurs. It is giving us joy, but it's giving him joy because he created us to enjoy that good and purposeful work.

Jospeh Honescko: Yeah, you said something there, Jordan, about feeling half alive in a lot of your tech entrepreneur journey. Yeah, and I think that's related to what you say a lot in the book, is that a lot of what we believed are half truths. Yeah. So it's not that you're reinventing the wheel. They're not, as I jokingly called them earlier, hot takes. They're what you're more accurately called them ancient takes. And the fact that they are rooted in this full picture of the gospel and the full picture of the scriptures. And one of the things speaking of the gospel that you talk about is the way that we've made this abridged gospel, which is that Jesus died to save us from our sins. And you invite us into a fuller picture that doesn't deny that reality, but shows up maybe broader picture. Can you talk about what you call the unabridged gospel a little bit?

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, I would be happy to. I would argue, I don't think I really have to make this argument very strong. I don't think anyone's going to disagree. The dominant version of Jesus' good news preached in churches, at least here in the United States, is, oh, the gospel, the good news that Jesus came to save you and me from our sins. And every word of that statement is, of course, gloriously true. But it is tragically incomplete, right? The gospel is not just good news for my life. The gospel is good news for the world, for culture, for business. Right? It's good news for our cities. Colossians one says Christ came to reconcile to himself all things. And let's go back to the beginning of our Bibles. In Genesis one, God called all of creation spiritual and material good, our souls in the material world. Genesis three Satan broke every part of that perfect creation, and God promised to send a Redeemer that would not just strike Satan's head. We're not just do battle with Satan, but that would crush Satan's head in total indisputable victory. And so if Christ's redemption does not go as far as the curse of sin, then God has failed. That's what we're saying when we're saying he only came to save us from our sins. And the implications of this could not be more important, because if Jesus only came to save our souls, then the only way that our work as entrepreneurs matters for eternity is if we leverage those jobs to the instrumental end of saving souls, because the rest of creation be damned, Jesus didn't come to redeem it. But if Jesus truly king as we sing every Christmas to make God's blessings flow far as the curse is found to reconcile to himself all things, including the material world. Then my work with the material world, typing on aluminum MacBooks, planting trees, harvesting the raw materials of this earth to serve customers must matter for eternity because Jesus blood paid to ransom. That material world I'm working with, as well as my soul that is animating that work. That's why this matters so much. The unabridged gospel Jesus is King of all. And so my work with all things is deeply sacred and matters for eternity.

Rusty Rueff: It's funny how we kind of jump to the front and then we jump to the end here, because at the end you give us how to best position yourself to make yourselves disciples at work. And, you know, you give us seven points and there's a lot of humanity in these seven points, like be good so that they can't ignore you. You've got be a friend. I love the last one. Be prepared to clear your calendar when you start to talk to others about what God is doing in your life and what God can do in other's lives. So it's a mindset shift here and a mindset shift here that can have not only ramifications in our daily work, but. To get back to the Great Commission. It can have eternal ramifications.

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, that's exactly right. I say, in the introduction of the sacredness of secular work, I don't want this book just to be interesting. I want it to be profoundly helpful. Right. And to that end, there's 24 practices baked into the book to help you make your work matter more for eternity. And a lot of those are focus on the first commission. Like what? For example, one of those practices is how do we optimize a current product we are building to literally and physically last onto the new Earth? Because Isaiah 60 promises us that some cultural artifacts are going to physically be present in the New Jerusalem. But Rusty, you're hinting at some of my favorite practices in the back of the book relate to the Great Commission, and maybe the one that's been most helpful to early readers has been this idea of building a list of launchers to intentionally steer conversations with coworkers from the surface to the serious to the spiritual. So let me break that down. I think there's two ditches that a lot of Christians find themselves falling into. The first ditch is what we've already been talking about in this conversation, believing that the only actions of eternal significance are those that we leverage to the instrumental end of sharing the gospel. That's a lie, right? And if you want to know why you read the book, or we could talk more about this on the podcast. But the second ditch is equally dangerous. Being so content with the intrinsic value of our work that we rarely, if ever, speak up and leverage our work to the instrumental end of sharing the gospel. And Wilberforce avoided this ditch well. So obviously he's most famous for helping to abolish the slave trade. See the first commission in the British Parliament. But he was also a disciple making machine, and his favorite tool for doing so was a very simple journal called his List of launchers. A list of launchers is really just two things. Number one, the list of names of people you are praying for their salvation, right? And number two, next to each name a list of topics, questions, or conversation starters that you think will lead your next conversation with that person. From surface level things to serious things, and then to spiritual things.

Jospeh Honescko: I think one thing you're saying there, Jordan, is this idea of intentionality and sacrifice, that to engage in these ways, you have to. It's not just gonna organically happen necessarily. There's gonna have to be some intentionality. There's going to have to be some kind of steps that you're taking in these. And I feel like that's maybe another barrier, maybe kind of talking about your two ditches to climb out of that ditch is this idea that it's going to take some the mindset shift, but also some action?

Jordan Raynor: Oh, 100%. I wrote a book a couple years ago called Redeeming Your Time. The title came from Paul's words in Ephesians five, where he's explaining what is our response to the gospel. And he says, see then that you walk carefully, not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. In other words, be intentional. We are not in heaven's waiting room. We have been saved by faith through grace. Period. Full stop. Praise the Lord not by works so that nobody can boast. See Ephesians two eight through nine. But we have been saved for the good works that God prepared in advance for us to do. And those good works do not mean exclusively evangelism. Right? That Greek word that Paul uses there, Eragon, actually literally means work, task, and employment. But evangelism is part of those good works. But we got to be intentional about redeeming our time with our coworkers a buying up every opportunity we can to share the hope, the unabridged gospel, the good news that Jesus is King of all.

Rusty Rueff: You know. What I also like about what you're talking is, and we're going to have listeners who are going to go, man, I love that idea of the launchers. I'm going to set myself up a Google doc to get those right. But I have a high level of anxiety to do that in the workplace. Yep. Right. And it's going to take some courage. But what I like about the way that you talk about looking for those opportunities to move from the surface to the serious, ultimately to the spiritual, is it no one pushes back?

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, that's exactly right. And this takes this takes discernment, right. Like we want a microwave people into believe in Jesus Christ. We have been so conditioned by the industrial Revolution to expect instantaneous results in everything. That is not how this works, according to Paul. Go read first Corinthians three. Apollos, plant the seed, I watered it. God's making the thing grow. Plants take a freaking long time to grow. I don't know if you've noticed this, right? I think we got to give up this idea that somehow. We can share the gospel with somebody and they can make a decision in five minutes. Does that happen? Sure. I've heard those stories right. We got to be patient and also recognize that God doesn't need any of us to do anything to redeem any part of creation, to save any particular person. His purposes will not be thwarted. See Job 42 two. He does not need us. He wants us. And he is inviting us to participate in work he is already doing with or without our directive. And I think we as faith driven entrepreneurs, ought to be embracing this trend to bring your whole selves to work. We should be on the bleeding edge of this. This gives us every opportunity to talk about our why. One of my favorite things to do, I just did one yesterday, is talk to Christian employee resource groups at large companies, or even better, interfaith employee resource groups at big companies. They're having this dialog to bring your whole self, mind, body and spirit to work and praise God for that, because by God's common grace, he's working through all those people, working together to uncover truth, to put people on a path to long for truth that can only be found in Christ alone. And I think, particularly in entrepreneurial circles, there is a hunger for these types of conversations because entrepreneurs are curious, right? And they're open to truth wherever they can find it. And we've got the market cornered on truth. All truth is God's truth, right? And so we trust me, I understand I understand the fears to engage here. I ran a 130 person company. Listen, I balked way more times than I care to admit it. Sharing my faith in that context. Right? I think one of the things I'm most ashamed about in my life, where a few team members, after I left, texting me after they saw something on social media like, oh, you're a Christian. Shame on me. We are running out of time to do the work that God has called us to do, right? And it is not going to be in this next. Tim Keller was on my podcast right before he passed away talking about this in this next generation, maybe the next 2 or 3, it is not going to be, quote unquote, full time missionaries and religious professionals who are most effective at the Great Commission. It will be mere Christians because the fastest growing religious affiliation is no religious affiliation. So where are your fellow founders and vendors and customers going to hear the good news of Jesus through you and me, but only if we have courage, and only if we are intentional about praying for these people, salvation, and being willing to speak up and raise our hand and say that we are followers of Jesus Christ.

Jospeh Honescko: You mentioned the employee resource groups, and we've had a few folks on the show Josh Harley, Tom Ferguson, Brooke Bukowski, all of them run these public companies. Pat Gelsinger would be another one who's really leading the way. And I think that you used the word earlier of this post-Christian context. Yeah. And I think a lot of people in the church can be afraid of that word because it feels like it's a damaging thing, but it sounds like the way you're positioning it is it actually creates this opportunity for discussion and openness to enter the dialog. Is that fair to say that this post-Christian is actually opens up new opportunities, particularly for entrepreneurs?

Jordan Raynor: 100%. And let's just do a quick recap of history. The church has always been most effective. And most true to what Jesus called us to be when we were in, quote unquote, exile. Like all these headlines of all war. Now, we've always been in exile. Jesus promised us that we would always be in exile on this side of the new earth. This shouldn't surprise us when I think what I'd love to see in the church is just a re embracing of that exile, knowing that, oh, by the way, Christ was in exile. He did not isolate from the darkness. He entered into our hot mess in order to shine the light of God. And that's what we're called to today. Not being scared of exile, not being oh, man, cultural trends are changing. So I should go quit my job and go to an employer that is better aligned with my values. Where did we get this thinking? What are we talking about? The stars shine brightest. The darker the night gets. And I pray that that'll be so. For God's church and the faith driven entrepreneurs and investors and workers. He's placed in every square inch of creation.

Jospeh Honescko: Well, and when Israel was in literal exile, God's command to them was to seek the welfare of the city, to go build culture. It's almost a repeat of that first commission. And I think you said something earlier that I don't want to jump over, because I think it's such an important part, which is that God doesn't need us to do this work. And I think that I've often felt this sense of, oh, he doesn't need us. So like, it doesn't matter. But what it actually is, is it's an invitation to this adventurous life. It's good news that he doesn't need us, but he's actually saying, hey, I'm going to do this really awesome thing. Do you want to join me in that task? Right. Like, we've been using this language a lot internally. If it feels like it's sacrifice and we're trading down. But the life of The disciple is one where we're trading up. We're actually invited into this adventure. This isn't this isn't a hang your head down. Get through it till we get to heaven. This is an invitation to enjoy life now and have life to the full.

Jordan Raynor: And have life to the full. But man, I don't know that we can have this conversation Joey, without touching on, one of the things in the sacredness of secular work that's caused the most controversy, this topic that is never explored in a lot of churches today, this concept of eternal rewards. And we avoid this topic for good reason. The perverted prosperity gospel has radically taken this idea and promised us our best life. Now that's garbage. Amen. We're all on the same page here. Yep. But Jesus did promise us our best life. Now, let me go further. Jesus commanded us to pursue our best life later. If we sacrifice for his sake in the present. I mean, so many entrepreneurs who feel guilty about chasing after return rewards like treasures and crowns. Scripture makes clear one of those rewards is increased job responsibilities on the new Earth. But to maintain that it is wrong to be motivated by these rewards. To quote doctor Randy Alcorn, quote unquote, is to bring a serious accusation against Jesus Christ, because there's like two dozen passages of Scripture where Jesus is not just suggesting, but commanding us to chase after these things, because I think he knew that every one of his followers. It's not an option as to whether or not we will be motivated by rewards. The question is, are we going to be motivated by the temporal reward of the praise of man, or the eternal reward of the pleasure of God? That's it. And so Jesus is saying, hey, listen, my kingdom will not be thwarted. I'm going to finish this work with or without you, but I want you to be a part of it, and I want you to be a part of it so bad, right, that I'm going to motivate you with these unbelievable riches. If you will delay your best life now for your best life. Later in in the book, one of the other practices that readers have really loved is idea building an anti bucket list. I think when we really understand the promise of the new Earth and the promise of eternal rewards, we'll stop spending so much time talking about our bucket list and start spending more time about our anti bucket list. These things we are intentionally sacrificing in the present, so that we can accumulate as many eternal rewards and experiences as possible on the New Earth.

Jospeh Honescko: Yeah, I love that, Jordan. Because again, it's just another one of those examples of a great ancient take because when you read revelation, when you revelation 21 is one of my favorite passages in Scripture, because the way it talks about the heaven and earth meeting together, and it's so clear that it is earth is not wiped away. So it's very obviously in there, but for whatever reason, it feels radical to talk about Earth being recreated in this way. I love the way you put it in the book, which is that we're going back to Eden, surrounded by the work of God's hands and some of our own. And so we're going to come to a close here with our last question. You're already bringing Scripture into it, but we always love to close every episode we have with guests asking just what the Lord is teaching you through His word. Today could be last week, could be the last little bit. But what's something that the Lord has been speaking to you recently?

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, there's a passage that I keep coming back to. I've mentioned it so many times on the mere Christians podcast that my audience is tired of hearing it. But it's a good way to end this conversation. Listen to Psalm 37:23. Psalm 37:23 says, the Lord directs the steps of the godly. And delights in every detail of their lives. In other words. God doesn't just delight in watching you write a big check to your church. He doesn't just delight in watching you leverage your list of launchers to share the gospel with your coworkers, although of course, he delights in those things. He delights in 100% of your time at work. Every zoom meeting you lead, every product you build. Every PowerPoint you pitch is an opportunity to contribute to the eternal joy of God.

Jospeh Honescko: Man. That's beautiful. Thank you Jordan. Thank you Rusty. The book is the sacredness of secular work. We'll have a link to it in the show description. Such a great time with both you guys. Thanks for joining us.

Jospeh Honescko: Thanks for listening to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Our ministry exists to equip and resource entrepreneurs just like you with content and community. We know entrepreneurship can be a lonely journey, but it doesn't have to be. We've got groups that meet in churches, coffee shops, living rooms, and boardrooms around the world. Find one in your area or volunteer to lead one and bring this global movement to your own backyard. There's no cost, no catch, just connection. Find out more at Faith Driven entrepreneur.org.

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