If you've been listening to the show or following the ministry for any amount of time, you've probably heard us say that entrepreneurs have a God-given call to create. It's actually one of what we call the 12 marks of a Faith Driven Entrepreneur. 

And in this episode, we're diving deep into our catalog to unpack this mark with leaders like Lecrae, Michael Hyatt, Curt Thompson, Makoto Fujimura, Paula Faris, and Jordan Raynor. 

Episode Transcription

Rusty Rueff: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. If you've been listening to the show or following the ministry for any amount of time, you've probably heard us say that entrepreneurs have a God given call to create. It's actually one of what we call the 12 marks of a faith driven entrepreneur. And today, we're diving deep into our catalog to pull together a special episode that unpacks this mark with leaders like Michael Hyatt, Lacrae, Curt Thompson, Makoto Fujimura and many others. To learn more about the marks, check out our website at faith driven entrepreneur.org and consider joining a group where you can work through these topics and build community with like minded peers in your area or online. Let's listen in.

Henry Kaestner: So, Lecrae, I want to bounce over to you. Our audience will know that we talk a lot about these marks of a faith driven entrepreneur, and it really starts with this concept of call to create. How do you experience God in the creative process?

Lecrae: I think, you know, creativity is really a very unique aspect of expressing, you know, what the theologians would call Imago Dei or made in the image of God. God is the ultimate creator, so he is the source of all creativity. He created the heaven and earth, the moon and the stars. And so when you are creating, you're actually reflecting his glory. You're reflecting back the awesomeness that he has instilled upon you. Ephesians two tells us that we're God's workmanship created for the things that He's preplan. And so when I create, I know that in some senses I'm walking in God's footsteps. And then the other beauty of creating is obviously God creates something out of nothing so he can take nothing and make something. We use the raw materials that God has created to make things as well following His example. But one cool thing that we get to do that no other creature on the planet can do is that we get to add value to things by creating them so we can take ore and metal and then shape it and molded and then we add value to it in the same way God took dirt and added value to it by breathing life into it. So I think that's something really special that I don't want to take for granted is that man, when people hear a song that I've made and they see it as valuable enough to want to purchase it, then I'm following in the footsteps of God because I've just taken sounds and thoughts and added value to them. And that is a beautiful aspect of being a creative.

William Norvell: You know. Henry and J.D. Greer, a pastor in North Carolina, did a video series that talked about his entrepreneurs. We feel God's pleasure of over doing some of these things that we're created to do. And I just love if you could maybe give a voice to that, if that resonates of feeling his pleasure as you create music and as you create things and businesses and enterprises.

Ben Washer: Yeah, I mean, I think any time someone's able to exercise their gifts, especially if you're a believer and you're able to exercise your gifts connected to what you feel like is serving the Lord, I mean, that's like the perfect marriage. So if you're been to be an entrepreneur and you're able to start architecting and putting together pieces and creating, you know, something out of nothing, it feels like, and you see it impact people. It's like the pinnacle of how you're designed. I mean, that's an exciting space to be in, especially at the beginning when you're all in and the burn the ships and you're just going for it.

Lecrae: Yeah, I agree. I also think it's something sweet about, you know, when you're able to exercise all your gifts and you're not overly concerned about how they'll be received or perceived, whether you know what I mean. Obviously, I think whenever you're creating something, you know, the market will always humble you unless you know what they think about it. But when you never anticipated the market to respond, you know, you're just excited for any response you get. And I think that was the sweet spot for us initially. Ben is like, he's great at visual art. He has a good ear for music, obviously entrepreneurial. And so he was able to employ all those things early on because he was able to just fill in the gaps where there was nobody. So it wasn't like, I don't know if this is the best creative design. And it was like, Well, who else is going to do it if I don't do it? You know, he's sitting in making $500 a month at this homegrown label, taking on every task. And so that was the sweet part for me, me being able to go on the road. And, you know, we didn't have banners saying CD's for sale. It was like Sharpie on a box. And those are the sweet spots as being able to use your gifts in that way. And then you hone them and you get better at them obviously.

Henry Kaestner: Obviously, one of the things he came across really clearly was this shared history that you have. and the value of partnership. And I believe so much biblical precedent being sent off and tours. And there's something really beautiful about being in partnership. Everything I've ever done successfully as an entrepreneur has been in partnership. What are some lessons you've learned and some encouragement you might offer up to the Crown about working and creating in partnership?

Lecrae: Mmmm Yeah. I mean, if you I'm talking to Christians out there and if you go to the ancient Jewish roots of our faith disciples, Jesus told his disciples in Hebrew, they're called Talmudic. And he told them to go off and have a dream. And what that is, is pairs to go off in pairs, not to do it alone. As a matter of fact, when they would study the scriptures, they would study as a team in groups or pairs to bounce ideas and thoughts off of each other. Because often times we can be blinded by our own perception of how things should be. And so you can fool yourself quite often. But working in partnership gives you the opportunity to wrestle with ideas, to wrestle with your own ideas. It gives you a sense of accountability for things that you know are not wise. And so it offers you the opportunity to grow in ways, you know, just like being married. You know, single people think they're awesome and then they get exposed. As soon as they get married that they're not as awesome as they thought they were, because now someone else has to see all of the areas that you weren't able to see. And I think that's the beauty of partnership is you can see some of the areas and faults that you may have. And then lastly, I would just say, you know, what you're doing ultimately in terms of partnership or teamwork is you're allowing yourself to take God serious when he tells us to trust one another, when he tells us to depend on one another. And also when he tells us that we in and of ourselves don't have all that it takes, you begin to appreciate the gifts that other people have. And I love staff and my weaknesses. If you know you're weak in some areas, you can staff them. And that's been a phenomenal journey for myself and the partnerships that I've experienced.

Rusty Rueff: So I'm going to ask probably an easy question for you. But I think sometimes a hard one, or at least for myself and for probably some other faith driven entrepreneurs is how do you take principles and how do we align those to our faith?

None: Right.

Rusty Rueff: I mean, seems easy, but it just ain't that easy, is it?

Michael Hyatt: It's not. But I think sometimes we make it more difficult than we need to. So let's just assume that, you know, you're operating in prayer, you're walking with God, you're trying to be obedient. You know, you're doing all the things right. You're part of the faith community, all that kind of stuff. I find it fascinating that most of the time what God requires of us is that we get clear about what we want. Three times in the Gospels, Jesus asks people, What do you want? Now, what's fascinating to me about that is he's the son of God. He absolutely knows what they want. I mean, he's asking a blind man, what do you want me to do? Well, what do you think I want? But evidently, it's important for them to get clarity about what they want before they're going to get healing. I think it's important for us to get clear about what we want as well. Now, this part may be controversial, but I love this. I learned this from John Eldridge, and that is that desire is like a map that God places into our heart, into a regenerate heart. In terms of what his will is. Because I've got involved when I was young as a Christian, I thought, well, if it's something I want to do that couldn't possibly be something God wants me to do. So I'll just do the opposite of what I want to do. Now, I don't think that's the way it is at all. I think that the desire that God has put in my heart is to help young entrepreneurs be successful, because I really believe that entrepreneurs are the driving force of culture. And so I have a real passion and a heart for this. And so as a result of that, I think that's how I get clarity. You know, getting alone, being prayerful, being thoughtful, writing things down. That's how I get clarity about God's will for my life or for my business. So in the vision driven leader, I talk about it. By the way, it's not a Christian book written from a Christian perspective, but there would be nothing in it that would probably tip you off unless you were looking for it. But one of the things I say that a vision is I talk about a vision script, so not a vision statement. You know, the short, pithy, like really clever slogan or motto that you could put on a coffee mug or on a T-shirt. No, I want something more robust that can give me operational guidance as I'm trying to build this thing that I'm a steward of. And so when I say a vision script, I'm talking about something that's a document that's 3 to 5 pages in length. It outlines a clear, inspiring, practical, attractive picture of your organization's future. It's reality as you see it, 3 to 5 years from now. And it's written in the present tense as though it were already happening. So that kind of document that's robust like that can be really powerful.

Henry Kaestner: Okay. I want to talk about this management of the team and I want to talk about delegation. And I want you to refine a little bit about the mistakes you see in delegation. You've got, I think, a ten 80-10 principle. Help us understand how to delegate and get the most out of our employees.

Michael Hyatt: Yeah, I think this is the secret to scaling a business. You know, the reason most businesses don't scale or stagnate is because they reach a ceiling. John Maxwell calls it the law of the lid, but it's because the entrepreneur or the person who starts the business just gets exhausted. You know, they exceed their capacity and there's nowhere for it left to go and they don't know how to delegate. So basically what I think you have to do as a leader is that you have to get hyper focused on what you and only you can do where you add the most value. I love this quote from Dawson Trotman, who founded the Navigators wonderful Christian organization that I was a part of for many years. But he said never do anything that others can or will do when there is so much of importance to be done that others cannot or will not do. So what are the things that only you can do? Everything else needs to either be eliminated, automated or delegated. But why is it so hard to delegate? And I think there's at least three mistakes that entrepreneurs make when it comes to delegation. First, they simply hesitate. You know, they refuse to delegate. And it's the second mistake that entrepreneurs make when it comes to delegation is they essentially abdicate. I call this the dump and run. You know, they're busy, they're harried, they're overwhelmed. So they kind of loosely explain it to a colleague or to a teammate. They say, this is what I want done. And then they're shocked when it comes back and it doesn't live up to their expectations. But another mistake they make and this is like the opposite, is they suffocate and this is micromanagement. So delegation is none of those things. Delegation is being clear and explicit on the front end. Dipping into the project occasionally to check progress, but giving people the opportunity to express their strengths. And if you build your team right, they're going to have the capabilities and the capacity to do what they can do better than you can do so that you can focus on what you and only you can do.

Henry Kaestner: Is there any other thing that you see faith driven entrepreneurs struggle with that you think you offer out as an encouragement or a challenge or any admonishment or just fill in the blanks? What's a grab bag for you to go to encourage a faith driven entrepreneur?

Michael Hyatt: I would say that your role in the world today is more important than ever. Hmm. You know, I'm actually writing a book right now that's going to be a provocative title, but I'm writing a book right now called Entrepreneurs Will Save the World.

Henry Kaestner: Mm hmm.

Michael Hyatt: And the subtitle is Why You're the Secret to Economic Recovery. You know, it's not going to be the government. It's not going to be some other institution. It's going to be entrepreneurs. Because what entrepreneurs do. The essence of who we are is that we solve problems and we solve problems at a profit. And in doing that, you know, people can say, well, but it's all self-interested. It is self-interested on the back end. But it never works until I get active solving somebody else's problems. And so, you know, I've said to the people that I coach, I've said the good thing about the pandemic and there are a lot of bad things. And I you know, I hurt for the people that have lost their jobs, lost their businesses. Some of them are my coaching clients. And, you know, I get that. But the thing I said to them is that in the middle of a crisis, there are gazillions of opportunities. And if our role as entrepreneurs is to solve problems, do we have more problems today than we did ten or 12 weeks ago? Absolutely. What that means is there are more opportunities. We just got to ask the question, what is this problem make possible? How can we turn this around? Use it to our advantage so never waste a great crisis. And this is an opportunity to accelerate the decisions you probably should have made before now. But this gives you the excuse or the motivation to make those decisions. And I think the thing that I would say to everybody listening to this take a stand for how you want to come out the other end of this crisis. Don't let that be an accident, because as an entrepreneur, as a Christian, you have a choice. You can either design the future, you know, with God's help. Or you can drift into the future and kind of take whatever comes. But the problem with drifting is this No one ever drifted to a destination they would have chosen. That only happens by design.

William Norvell: I want to set the stage for the soul of the entrepreneur with one question. You said the intersection of neuroscience and spiritual formation. I don't want to run past that. What does that mean to you? I don't think that sentence has been said on this podcast before. What does that mean to you? And then we're going to dive into how it applies to an entrepreneur.

Curt Thompson: When I hear the word entrepreneur, I think about someone who is creating something. I think about someone who's building something. Somebody who's making stuff. And I want to say that is what we are all made to do. To be made in God's image is to be first and foremost. We read in the Gospel and we read it in Genesis one, and God is a maker. And then he says, We're going to make humans to do what we do, which is we're going to make things and we're going to steward them. We're going to create and curate things. And we want to create and curate things of great beauty and great endurance, and they give life to other people. But the Bible also tells a story in which we do not live in a neutral universe. And I think it's fair to say that evil has no intention of allowing beauty to survive, and it will come to devour us. And it's what it did in Genesis chapter three, and it's what it will do with our anxiety and depression, all these kinds of things. But we want to say that evil does not get to have the last word because of Easter and because of that. When we talk about neuroscience and spiritual formation, we're really talking about the world that entrepreneurs occupy because of anything like what they are doing in creating things. You are creating the goodness and beauty in the world that God has predestined for you to create from before the foundation of the world.

William Norvell: It's fascinating. And what I want to dive into off of that is we spent a decent amount of time on the podcast talking about the lonely journey of entrepreneurship, right? It's a lonely journey only if you allow it to be at some level. Of course, Jesus can walk with us, community can walk with us. That's why our ministry exists, is to help people find people for that journey. And so I talk just a little bit about those realities. Those are real entrepreneurs who have higher levels of depression and anxiety and things like that. That is a soul level thing. That seems to be true, right? So I wonder how you would be to an entrepreneur who's either on the journey or setting out on the journey to say, Here's some realities, but here's a gift of longing for beauty and try to hold those?

Curt Thompson: Mm hmm. It's a great question. You know, we in our practice, we run what we call confessional communities. And I talk about this in the book. And one of the pillars that we describe in these groups is that we say repeatedly over and over that we are a people of great longing, longing for beauty and goodness in all kinds of explicit domains of our life. And we are a people of great grief. That's what it means to be human. We are both of those things. And we will be both of those things until we're dead. But life and the creative act and being a father of three kids under four or being an entrepreneur takes place in the presence of both of these. Because running between and we hear Jesus words that says, I tell you these things so that in me you will have peace. Because in this world you will have tribulation but be of good cheer for I've overcome the world. This sense that we were made with a longing. He's put eternity in our hearts, this longing for beauty and goodness that we can name the things about the work that we do that bring us joy, that are good and are beautiful. And at the same time, we have to be able to simultaneously name the parts of our lives where we experience grief, where it's difficult. But what's most important about both of these things is that, like, you know, when I think about this, I'm a person of grief and person of longing and person of grief. What's most important is not just those things. What is important is that I am in the community with William and Henry in which we are naming all of these things together. And when I say to you, this is the part about parenting that is really hard. And you say me. And that is really hard. And you share your experience with me. And my mind is now not alone with my grief. The not being alone transforms the felt sense of overwhelm, sadness, rage, all the things that I feel. It is transformed by presence. It is transformed by my being more deeply known by my brain, knowing that it is not alone in this. This is where Trinitarian theology is so crucially important for us. And so it's not just a matter of, Oh, I'm going to pay attention to the parts about my life that I like the most and not pay attention to the parts that are hard. It is. I want to be in a community in which we can name all of these things because it is ultimately not just the longing or the grief that is most important. It is that I am with and someone is with me in the middle of all of it. And, you know, we notice that when you how many times throughout the entire arc of the scriptures, when God is wanting to let people know that they're going to be okay. Mostly what he says is, I am with you. He doesn't say I'm with you and I'm going to do this and this and this and this. Jesus says, I am with you even to the end of the age, and he doesn't add on lots of other footnotes about what it means he's going to do just the whole notion of his presence, reenacts recapitulates. It's not good for man to be alone recapitulates, and the man and his wife were naked and unashamed. They were vulnerable with each other. They were differentiated and present for one another in the presence of God, and that this notion of creativity in the face of suffering, in the face of painful things can be sustained because of presence, not just because I have more information, not just because I have new ideas, not just because I get, you know, a new business model plan. I mean, those things are not unimportant. But at the end of the day, if I am left feeling alone in my task. I'm not going to survive this because I can be really smart, have more information, have all the power I need, all the money I need in the world. And if I am alone, I am pushing against the Earth's mandate that it's not good for me to be that way.

William Norvell: I was telling Makoto before we got here. I got to hear him speak seven years ago at a small event, and he had just written a book on culture care that I read, and it just sort of opened my eyes to how to care for these people in our culture. What part of the body of Christ they play and how could you help us think through what part of the body creative's an artist have and how we that maybe don't share that can think about that and support and love and appreciate things in new ways?

Makoto Fujimura: Yeah, all of us have different ways of understanding the world and you know, some of us are more visual like me. Some of us are kinetic, some of us, you know, listen to music and can understand immediately what the composer is trying to do. So we all have different entry points and all of us are creative. We are creatures of the imagination. And unless we find and sanctify imagination, we will be prone to follow the dictates of consumerism. And so how that works is basically our history of modern history or media. But really, we, you know, cannot live a single moment without using our imagination to understand the world. Now, most of us think imagination is like fantasy. You know, it's not something you make up, you know, the story that you make up, but that's not what imagination is. Biblically speaking, this is a direct tie because, you know, so many of the words used for our hearts in the Bible, that word, you know, that we translate into our hearts in Old Testament and New Testament, both pointing, you know, Dr. Adam Davis, who I work with, she's a Hebraic scholar. She says the closest word in English language for heart is imagination. So, you know, when we are talking about our hearts, we're actually talking about imagination, biblically speaking. But we have disassociated what's going on with our bodies and our hearts with rational means, right? We trust the rational means oftentimes, and we don't trust the heart. Now, that's a systemic problem for Christians, because if you don't connect the two, that means your Sunday faith is not going to translate into your Monday to Saturday faith. It's going to be dissociated. You know, you might have sent to checking boxes on Sundays and go through the ritual of, you know, agreeing with those principles, but it never gets into the heart. And that's where making will come in is whenever you're making, whether it be an omelet or you're gardening or you're playing baseball or whatever, that is not something that you can just simply explain to people, you know, how does a pitcher pitch his, you know, curve? And when that's you use that, right. Those are not something that you can just spell out in a calculus formula. And, you know, then everybody can do it. It's far more complicated. Even the simple, you know, motion of throwing a fastball is not very easy to teach. So what does that say about a knowledge? You know, as I say in the book, God bless faith. You know, we tend to, as Christians, argue over the recipe. We argue all day, you know, and create denominations. But really, have we tasted the fruit? Right. And if you are asking a chef to make an omelet or anything, you want to taste what he or she has made first, right before you make judgment on the recipe, if you want to know the recipe, you taste it. If it's good, then you ask for the recipe, not the other way round. Most of the time in education in the church, we do the opposite. We think that knowledge is, you know, head down. So we, you know, live every day disassociating ourselves from the act of making everybody has some way to really connect that. And those we find to be hearing, whether it be just walking outside or watching a movie and responding in a community or having a beer together or whatever that may be, Those are things that actually outlast many of the things that we think are important that we assent to. Now, they're not unimportant, but they are disconnected.

William Norvell: And that's fascinating in culture care you talk a lot about the importance of creating and embracing beauty as an antidote to cultural brokenness? And of course, there's a lot of people listening. Brokenness culturally is very high right now, specifically in the U.S., as you mentioned, so were most of our audiences. We have people from around the world, but a good number here in the U.S. And, you know, you have this beautiful line we can write that, you know, beauty has a way of feeding our souls. And I just wonder, how have you come to know Christ more through generating beauty and art? And for those of us who maybe can't. Generate as much. How do our souls get fed? You know, how does beauty revive someone's soul who maybe doesn't quite get it?

Makoto Fujimura: Well, thanks for that question. First of all, I know I think the word I understand means to stand under. Oftentimes, we over stand and try to force our perceptions on, you know, our previous knowledge into that mystery. And that doesn't work. That produces actually that dissonance between what we can experience in learning about something new. You know, you can expect to learn a new language overnight. It takes years of listening and actually new neurons, you know, connecting, right. Connections being made in your brain that's new. And that same thing with anything music, art, theater, cinema. It takes years of paying attention and listening and learning from the masters. And so that practice actually is a discipline that I think every successful entrepreneur will have to have, because it's not just, you know, you're creating a product that's going to sell. And, you know, we start out that way. We think, you know, this is a great idea. It's going to be a hit. Oftentimes, you know, we're humbled by our own assumptions and we realize like, oh, I actually have to listen to my customers. I have to test this out in various cultures in order to see if my ideas can even have any kind of success. And so, you know, we go through the process of, you know, standing under the customers, standing under whatever the field we're serving to understand that this is an entry point. And my ideas, would it work? Well, that depends on whether you understood it well enough or not. Right. So it's not just head knowledge, but it's experience. It's knowledge of actually, you know, being on the ground to experience the testing stages and so forth. And so my sense is that most of us have both the capacity and inclination and interest in learning something new.

Liz Bohannon: For you. What is the difference between or what was the difference between, Hey, I'm going through a particularly challenging season that's kind of requiring my all in this specific area of my life and I need to work through that and it'll be challenging, but I'll come out on the other side of it versus I need to change something because I think that that's something just in general, like as an entrepreneur, I really struggle to know, okay, what's a season that it's right for me to be like all in because I know that there's end in sight and then when am I telling myself it's a season? But actually, if it's a season after season, after season after season, that's actually your life, right? So I'm curious like, what was it for you specifically in this moment that made you realize, Oh, this isn't just a particularly busy or challenging season. This is I need to, as you said, pump the brakes. Like, what was that signal for you?

Paula Faris: Yeah, it's finding that difference between just like a little pivot and a total reroute, you know, or a detour, like, how do you know the difference? So, you know, I had sensed a stirring in my spirit that I was supposed to pump the brakes. But then, you know, I'm like, God, you called me to this. Why would you call me out of it? Right? I worked so hard. I'm doing this for you, right? Why in the world would you ask me to walk away at the top of my game? Right? And so I started to have this restlessness within my spirit that I was supposed to do this. And then I was like, you know, I was so scared about it. People will think I'm crazy that, you know, I was a has been that I'm washed up, that I couldn't hack it. And so I just kind of pushed those feelings to the side, right? I pushed them to the side and I dug in even harder. And then I write in my book called out that I think that God allowed a very trying season to happen to get my attention. And so people will say, Oh, you're a brave for walking away at the height of your career. I wasn't brave. I was just like, follow in the signs. I was I felt like Joe. So within, you know, a short period of time, I had some major things happen to me that got my attention. So I'm either at this point like, life's fine. I'm sure God wants me to keep going at this pace. Or I was like, There's a big white flag. God, you got my attention. If I'm not going to slow down, you are physically slowing me down. And that's what God did. And so I kind of went kicking and screaming, to be honest. And so I finally decided, okay, I'm going to do this. It's crazy. I'm at the top of my game, who does this? But just realizing, you know, that my values were clashing with the choices that I made. So pump the brakes and 2018 couldn't figure out who I was outside of my job. Right. And then, you know, a year and a half later, I did leave ABC.

Liz Bohannon: Can you tell us a little bit more about that season? Like what was it when you said, I couldn't figure out who I was outside of my job? Like, what did that look like? What were the questions that you were asking yourself and what were the signals to you that your identity was so wrapped up in your job but you didn't know it when you were in the midst of it?

Paula Faris: Well, it's like it was the loss of something, right? And there's always I didn't expect that vast array of emotions, from anger to denial to I was feeling everything. But I think there was more. I was angry at God in some capacity that he forced this on me. Right. And then I was angry at myself because I, I always took pride in the fact that I was a believer and that I could walk. I would literally I would say I can walk away from what I do, is still know who I am. But actually, when the rubber met the road and I had to walk away from what I did and I didn't have those fancy titles attached to my name, I didn't know who I was anymore. And so just like it was a season of self-discovery and reckoning, eating crow, you know, like everything I thought that I was and the way that I thought I had built my career, there was a lot of self-reflection. And then, you know, I feel like God just slowly started to heal my heart and show me that my identity and worth were never supposed to come from a job. And my value wasn't vocation. My worth was not work. You know, my calling wasn't just career. So I was angry at a lot of people, a lot of institutions, including myself. Right, for how I got to that point. But God gave me a lot of freedom and permission to try new things and new seasons because my worth is not in my work and my value isn't just my vocation, and God's going to call me to do a lot of different things. Throughout my life, I thought I had to be a broadcaster forever. He showed me, I'm going to call you too many different things in many different seasons, but your ultimate purpose is to love God and love people. And wherever you're placed, vocationally, that's the conduit. That's the way in which you will love God and of people. So it's honestly given me like this new lease on life and permission to try new things and new seasons, which is why I'm dabbling my toes in, you know, this area, which is go to my heart for like eight years to really give working moms a voice and to change the game for them to become an entrepreneur. I'm not an entrepreneur or anything. I don't have my master's in business. I don't know the. First thing about it. But I know God gave me this passion that I've had for a long time, and I know that my worth is it in my work. So I'm just going for it and I continue to press in. I'm like, God, if you want me to keep going for it, keep bringing the right people around, keep surrounding me with the right voices.

Sue Alice: That you talked about just you're not a business background. You never thought about becoming an entrepreneur. I think we hear all the time from entrepreneurs that find themselves in that same space of I'm not sure if I'm qualified to do this or I don't have the background for that. What have you learned since starting CARRY about yourself, about being a working mom, about being an entrepreneur? What are some of those new lessons God is teaching you?

Paula Faris: Well, I'm realizing that, like again, God calls us to do different things in different seasons, but like my gifts and talents that won't change that. God gave me my ability to ask questions. I like to challenge people. I like to champion people. And I just had to kind of redirect that to this new space as leaders. This is probably one of the biggest things I've learned is it's so powerful to say, I don't know what I don't know. Right. And to just acknowledge that. But what I do know, this is a space I do know I do know how to challenge people and to champion them. And I do know how to ask the right questions. And I do know that God put this on my heart. I have a peace about it, but I'm still just so scared. And I've learned that the peace and the fear will go together. So just get used to those two things. Get used to not sleeping a lot, you know, waking up in the middle of the night, that's normal. But getting used to the peace and the fear that you have to reconcile in a new space that you didn't see for yourself where you feel unqualified, completely unqualified to pursue. So those are just a couple of the things that I've learned. But yeah, it can be overwhelming. But, you know, one of my friends just said I was like, you can get paralyzed, you know, paralysis by analysis and you don't know what to do. And she's like, just do the next right thing. Just keep doing the next right thing. And that's what I've been doing. I'm just taking steps. I'm doing the next right thing. And it's scary and it's very, very unknown. But God continues to honor it. And that's how it is with entrepreneurship, with faith, with being a faith driven entrepreneur, you have to take those first steps. That's what it is to be a child of God. That's part of the faith journey. But you have to take a step of faith and you've got to get used to the peace and the fear coexisting together.

Henry Kaestner: There is something beautiful about the gospel of Jesus Christ and that it is infinite in its simplicity and infinite in its complexity. It's so simple that even a child can understand the beauty of the message of the gospel, and yet we can plumb the depths of the Bible and the work that God has done in the world. And we would, in even angels, look to learn these things, to look into these things. That is the gospel. So they've been around for millions of years. They haven't completely figured it out. So it's infinite in its complexity and it's infinite in its beauty. But Jordan has written a book that talks about how faith driven entrepreneurship can actually be a really, really simple tool. And the call to create is all through this new book that he's written. And it is beautifully illustrated, and I'm so grateful for a book that allows a parent to be able to help a young child understand how God might use their creativity for his glory and to bring that young child close to him as they progress. So, Jordan, thank you for your work. Tell us a bit about it.

Jordan Raynor: So, honestly, you know, the seed of this idea came when I was writing my first book for grown ups called The Create, which I interviewed you. Henry, for you make it appearance, as you know, and called to create. And that because really was me trying to help us all see that, you know, before God tells us that He is holier, loving or omnipotent, He tells us he's a God who creates and make things, but not a God who creates alone, a God who, in his inimitable goodness and grace invites you and I to create alongside of him. And when I was writing that book, there was the seed of this idea that one day I wanted to translate that message in the language that kids could understand. And then when I started having kids of my own, I think that seed started to germinate. So fast forward to today, six years later. I've got three young daughters and I have read them, I don't know, maybe a dozen books on the creation account of Genesis one. And you guys know that you're right. All of these books follow the same pattern. On day one, God created this. On day two God created that day three, four, five, six, the end. And these books, if I'm frank, like, drive me bonkers because we're burying the lead of the creation in the sixth day. Was it the end of creation? It was just the beginning. It's when God pass the baton to you and me and told us to go fill this earth. And so that's the message we're trying to convey in the creator in you. It's essentially a three act drama. In 3 minutes, we're an act one. You're seeing God create. We're using language and illustrations that show him working right, act two about a third of the way through the book. It says this. It says, And now you might think that our story is ending because every other book about Genesis one tells you it's ending. We don't say that, but in fact, it's just beginning because God made you to look like him, to act and work and create with him. Because while in six days God created a lot, there are so many things that he simply did not like bridges and baseballs, sand castles and s'mores. God asks us to create and fill the planet with more. And then the last act is just this like, beautiful montage illustrated by my illustration partner, Jonathan Voss. Watching these kids fill the earth with art and lemonade stands and businesses and tree forts and culture. And what we've seen is kids have latched on to this book is our hope is that they're going to view their current work, whether it's art projects around the house, whether it's their future careers, whatever, with renewed God ordained purpose and joy. And by God's grace, we're already seeing some of that for just a couple of months after the book's been released.

Henry Kaestner: You know, one of the things I've heard you talk about before is that church, of course, is a great thing. And yet we know that there are cultural influences. They're going to shape our children. Tell us a little bit more about what that looks like.

Jordan Raynor: Oh, my goodness. The sad, cold, hard fact is that our kids are going to grow up with the largest generation of kids on record who have no religious affiliation, none whatsoever. And as those kids get older, they're not going to walk into the walls of a church to learn about Jesus for the first time. Maybe they will, maybe God work a miracle, and they will. But the statistics as we know them now, that's likely not going to have it. So where are they going to learn about Christ? They're going to learn about Christ through mainstream films created by Apprentices of Jesus, through novels that subtly and winsome and artistically awaken people's hearts to their need for redemption. They're going to learn about God through businesses created by founded by current faith driven entrepreneurs and the next generation of faith driven entrepreneurs. They're going to learn about God through culture. I strongly believe that more than likely it's going to be by re embracing the first commission to call the create. Then our kids are going to be the most effective at the Great Commission and the call to make disciples. And I think we can plant the seed to that message right now, helping our kids understand these very simple truths that number one got creates a number two, he invites them to create alongside of them. That's part of the reason why I wrote The Creator in you.

Rusty Rueff: You know, it feels to me like you're calling out to entrepreneurs, that you're calling out for those who want to build on what we have and try to take it to the next level to play a role in this. I mean, do you see that?

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, totally. Right. Entrepreneurs have disproportional impact and influence in this world, right? In faith driven entrepreneurs, those animated by the gospel of Jesus Christ have tremendous opportunities to, number one, scratch off the thin veil between heaven and earth. Right. To make this world. To make the kingdom come a little bit more on Earth as it is in heaven. Number two, to make disciples. Very talked about that in number three, just a real foundational level. I don't think we talk about this enough. The work of entrepreneurs, the work of any Christian doing good work that contributes to human flourishing simply brings God pleasure, bring him pleasure, brings them happiness. The Psalms say that God takes delight in every detail of the lives that the godly that includes you going to work tomorrow and building your business with excellence and love and in accordance with his commands. And if you do that, I think we can bank on the fact that the father is smiling to us, that we bring him joy. And that should be good in and of itself. That in and of itself should be enough to motivate us to go to work tomorrow and do the work a little bit better simply as a means of making our father happy.

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