Entrepreneurs have the ability to identify opportunities for innovation. Today’s guest has been doing that his whole career in industries that were ripe for disruption. 

Josh Harley is the Founder, Chairman, and CEO of Fathom Realty, the tenth largest real estate firm in the U.S. with over ten-thousand agents. 

In this conversation, he talks about how entrepreneurs can train themselves to become more aware of the potential opportunities in front of them and how they can faithfully lead their people in a way that honors God and serves others.

If you like this content, make sure to follow, review, and share the show with others. New episodes release every Wednesday with entrepreneurial leaders around the world.

Episode Transcript

Rusty Rueff: Hey there. And welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast for wherever you are around the globe today. You know, when you think of the top innovative, disruptive industries. How far down do you have to get until you arrive at real estate? Most of us don't see it as the most cutting edge field to get into. But that's exactly why today's guest chose this industry. Josh Harley is the founder, chairman and CEO of Fathom Realty. It's the 10th largest real estate firm in the United States with over 10,000 agents. The firm has achieved great success due to Josh's innovative approach to an industry that he saw that was ripe for disruption. Here he talks about how entrepreneurs can train themselves to become more aware of the potential opportunities in front of them and how they can faithfully lead their people in a way that honors God and serves others. Let's get into the conversation.

Rusty Rueff: So, William, how's your Latin?

William Norvell: Ooh, I say poor to very poor.

Rusty Rueff: Poor to very poor. So my Latin isn't good, but chatGPT is awesome. chatGPT. So I threw in this word realists to try to get to a meaning of something. And realist means relating to things. And it refers to property that it consists of land and any structures or improvements on it. And then there is a word that goes behind realist, and it's the word estate originally referring to an individual's wealth or possessions, including land, which over time became the term real estate, which I didn't really understand. Where did that come from? Because I always looked at and goes, Well, of course it's real. It's not Unreal estate. It's right there in front of us. But it goes all the way back to the time when we spoke Latin in Rome.

William Norvell: Those things always one fascinate me, and I had no idea. But it's kind of like said this one, I'm going to put myself up for ridicule here. This can be a loss, but I'm going to throw it out there. I just found out the other day that sand is between the sea and the land.

Rusty Rueff: Seriously?

William Norvell: Seriously.

Rusty Rueff: Good one. That's a good one.

William Norvell: The real thing. I am so glad you didn't know that. That was a risk. That was a risk. I took it.

Rusty Rueff: That's a good one. We could go on and on. But we're going to welcome in our guest who knows a little more about real estate than the two of us. In fact, I would say he knows it probably 10,000 times more than we do because he's got 10,000 employees in his company. And yet it's the 10th largest real estate firm in the United States. So we've got a top ten guy with us today. Josh Harley, welcome to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast.

Josh Harley: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. I really love that you guys are doing it means a lot to me. I know it means a lot to other investors and entrepreneurs and everyone else who's just trying to understand what's happened in the world, but do it in the lens of Christlike people.

Rusty Rueff: Well, we try to do our best. And, you know, Henry had this vision a long, long time ago that, you know, we needed to equip faith driven entrepreneurs, not just help fund them, which is where he and William and others started with the sovereign's capital. And that's what we've been trying to faithfully do for lots of years now. And to have you here to help us do that today with our listeners is just fantastic. And, you know, you have a fascinating story. Your background covers so many things and we're going to dive into some of those. But I think you're your story of the real estate space and how you got started and, you know, just one step to another to where you are today is pretty unique in the field. So share that journey with us, if you will.

Josh Harley: Sure. I appreciate the opportunity to share that story. So my story actually starts back when I was in the Marine Corps and I got to the Marine Corps and I was looking for a job to take care of my family. And I got this great gig and this right before 911 happened. And I got this great job paying me six figures, you know, out of the military, making six figures, you know, go from 20,000 a year to six figures is incredible. But since 911 happened in the Dallas area, I got laid off, got a job again, got laid off again, got a job again, got laid off, literally got laid off in like three times in a 12 month period. And it was incredibly painful and scary. And I got fed up like, you know what? Forget it. I'm a do it myself. If I'm going to put my life in anyone's hands, is going to be my own. And it's doing God's. And so I decided to start my first company and is really focused around now Internet lead generation. Back then it was actually the automotive space. I knew someone that was in automotive cars was still moving fast back then. And so I came in and I started helping him sell his cars. But online, this is before eBay motors and things like that. And so I really got a great understanding of Internet sales and lead generation. Unfortunately, that company did so well that eventually failed. So what I mean is like I basically became a commodity. And when a business model is really successful, sometimes it becomes a commodity to where it's no good anymore. Like everyone's doing it. It just doesn't make sense. And so that business just blew up. It was successful and just as fast was kind of a flash in the pan. It went out of business. And now that I knew some of the real estate space, new homebuilding specifically, I took that same thing I learned in the automotive side of the Internet lead generation. And I've moved over in to the new homebuilding side and I started helping out Builder in that sales department. Again, this predates almost anyone doing this in the real estate space and new home building. So so just having a website that you can go to. We're actually putting the floor plans in the homes and everything online for people to find and buy. And so I believe our first year increased our sales by 90 million. And for a regional like just in the state of Texas regional builder that's incredible. But that gave me the idea to do the same thing in real estate. And when I say real estate, obviously new home building is real estate. But for real estate agents, I saw an issue, right. One of the things about being an entrepreneur you always look for something's broken, like how do I fix that and how do I. Build a business out of that. And so I saw an opportunity, instead of generating leads for a builder, can I generate leads for a real estate agent instead? Because if you generate lease for a builder, that buyer may buy just for that builder. If they decide to buy across the street from another builder, you lose the deal. But if I gave that same lead to a realtor, I got paid no matter where they go or if they bought a resale home, if they decide to lease instead. And so that was kind of really the genesis there. But I could see God's hands through all of it, because you know that even though the first business failed, it gave me everything I needed to be able to move on to the next business that ended up being exceptionally successful. So I'm very thankful that it feels like I'm very thankful I got laid off over and over again because had I not, it would have never forced me to push through that brick wall to be an entrepreneur.

William Norvell: Josh It's a fascinating thing. I'm going to ask you to go a layer deeper there, if that's okay. And here's why. I'm wondering, how did you feel during that? Because I can see you looking back on it, right? How did you process that with God as it was happening? And what was that journey to? I'm thankful I was laid off three times. Like, I imagine that was it. But that happens in, you know, in an entrepreneurial sense. Businesses fail. And then the next idea. I'm just curious if you could walk through those emotions with us on that and how you ended up there.

Josh Harley: No, I think it's a great question, William, thank you. So the first time I got laid off, I thought, you know, it's life, It happens. I hear about people getting laid off all the time. You know, it's not just I'm not being fired, so I don't want to take it personally. It didn't hit me that hard. In fact, I got a job immediately. I mean, as I'm packing up my stuff, I got a call from someone saying, hey, you know, we heard you're an exceptional recruiter for this company. We want to bring you on board. You know, found out later on, you know, two months later, they shut that whole office down. But so the first time is like, you know what? Life happens, move on. Got a job opportunity right away. God's good. You know, we're there the second time it's done because already I'm falling behind in my bills, you know? And when you're a recruiter, especially I.T. recruiter, you get a very, very small base salary, basically minimum wage. And then most your money is made through commissions. Well, it takes time to hire people and get them placed. Right. And so obviously, I'm falling behind on the bills, starting to feel desperate. I've got, you know, a brand new baby at home. You know, it's it's scary. So I'm looking at God, okay, God, I trust you. You know, I know you're going to take care of us, but can you show me how know I need you to speak to me right now. And so that was tough. And when it happened the second time, you know, it took me a couple of weeks. I got another job, moved in. You know what? We're going to move forward. We're back in the saddle and then get laid off a third time. And now I say, okay, you know, there's got to be more to this. You know, God's telling me something that maybe I'm in the wrong industry. Maybe God wants something else. Because I realized a long time ago, long before this, is that sometimes God opens doors. Sometimes God closes doors, too. And I really felt that God was closing that door. I couldn't God's never audibly spoken to me through some burning bush. But, you know, I can feel his presence. I can feel him talking to me. And so I really felt like I was calling me to do something more. And I'm very creative, very artistic. And I felt like, look, if you truly believe that we're made in God's image, you know, part of that is being creative and innovative. And you look at the Earth, the work, you know, I love science. You look around so you know that God is just incredibly creative and he made us that way as well. And so I use that creativity. So I feel like God was shutting that door. And that's why I look back and I was thankful for it, because as scary as it was, I always had that entrepreneurial spirit. I always wanted to do something, but I needed God to shut that door to actually step out in faith.

Rusty Rueff: We're going to jump more into the real estate business. But now you got me thinking about other things, too, which is really good. So, Josh, you have a fascinating background because you were a marine and you also taught people hand-to-hand combat. How much of that in your background, you know, being up against the toughest of toughest life threatening situations also helped you maybe get through some of these, you know, what looked to be obstacles from job to job to job. But was there something that, you know, in your mindset that also helped there?

Josh Harley: Absolutely. First of all, it's one of those it's hard to lose your temper when you've been shot at. Yeah, that kind of idea. I mean, just life can hit you hard, but it's never going to be as hard as that. It's never going be as hard as having to bury your friends. It's never going be as hard as, you know, being a combat situation. I was an infantry sergeant. And so it's sometimes you put things in perspective. Now, I want to make sure I say that stress the stress of stress. You know, you can have the stress of losing your mother or father, and that puts you in great stress. And that amount of stress you feel feels exactly the same as, you know, losing a friend in combat or being shot at. It's different. You can claim that, well, my stress is harder than your stress, but it's really not. Your body can deal with exact same way. But the benefit to constantly being stressed over and over and over again, as you become thick skinned, you're able to deal with things in stride instead of getting upset and sort of hiding under the bed or looking for that proverbial safe space. You know, you can't do that. You got to move on. I think one of the things the Marine Corps taught me, my father, my father's 35 years in the military, you know, he drill that into me as well, is that you don't have time to sit back and cry about something and stress about something. You've got to use that stress as a motivator, harness it and use it for good. And I think that's one of the things the Marine Corps teaches you when the explosions happen when the gunfire, you don't freeze, you move, and it actually prompts you to move prompts you to drive forward. And I think that's really incredibly important, especially as an entrepreneur, because life is going to throw Curveball after Curveball. One of the things you learn in the Marine Corps is you make plans, but you make plans for plans for plans because something is going to go wrong. So you've got to have a backup plan for your backup plan. And that's one of the things I learned as well as you're always. Here's what I want to do. In a perfect world, that's what's going to happen. But what if it doesn't? You know, what's the unintended consequence of this action? What could go wrong and then start putting things in place? So if that does go wrong, here's how I'm going to deal with it so I can pivot immediately. And I think that's something that I learned from the Marine Corps. I think that's something that everyone should learn as quickly as they can. I hate when people say fail often and fail fast. Think that's stupid because, yes, you're going to fail. And if it's going to fail, then get it over with. Don't fail often if you don't have to, you know, still do that purpose, you know, But if it's going to happen, don't chase good money after bad either.

Rusty Rueff: Now, that's really good. So now take that, because I love we shouldn't run past stress as stress as stress, because I think, you know, as entrepreneurs, we carry a lot of stress. You know, and I was talking to our founder that I advised the other day, and he said, you know, the highest of highs and the lowest of lows, man, you know, this is just this is hard and, you know, the stress that he feels. But at the same time, you know, you've been recognized as a disrupter and an innovator in an industry that, you know, probably wasn't all that welcoming of innovation and disruption. And somewhere in there also is, you know, winning the next fight, winning the next battle in that realm. So talk to us about, you know, what you had to do to step into this industry from the ground up, be an innovator, be a disruptor, and then take that and expound that out to advice for our entrepreneurs.

Josh Harley: Well, sure. So, first of all, one of the things I love to do, if you want to innovate and disrupt, the first thing you need to do is look for an industry or an area that you can innovate or disrupt. And so that's what I loved about real estate, is that it's still to this day behind the times, there's still so much more innovation, disruption that can be had in this space. You know, it's hard to do that in many other spaces. Even automotive has gotten incredibly technologically advanced. It's still behind the times a little bit as well. But there's so many industries just are so far along, and yet real estate is still relationship driven. It's still very one on one. You know, everyone's kind of on an island on their own, so there's a lot of space. And really that's what attracted me to real estate in the first place. There's a lot of opportunity to be able to disrupt and to be able to innovate. But your point, I used to keep this wall. I used to keep a corkboard, and I called it my wall of nasty because I got so many emails and letters, you know, from other broker owners that are telling me that I'm ruining the industry and then I'm putting them out of business. And that I'm, you know, just nasty, just nasty stuff. And yet I believe that as you innovate and disrupt, it actually makes everybody better. And that's what's been happening. The real estate industry has been getting better as more of us have come in to disrupt the space, because as you do that, it challenges you, challenges each other to dig deeper and work harder, to be a better service to your clients or provide a better service to your employees and so on. So but I think that's first, if you want to get into an industry, pick an industry that's still ripe for disruption and that's to this day is still real estate. You know, for me, I always love that term, you know, when life gives you lemons. Have you heard that term? I sure ever saw it. When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. You know, it's not just about seeing the brighter side, which I think a lot of people think about. It's also about seeing an opportunity in the problem. And almost every great business comes from someone who wanted to solve a problem. You know, most people see an obstacle and simply turn around and quit. But as I mentioned before, your God places those obstacles are lives to help us stretch ourselves. You know, if you believe [this one metaphor] If you believe that were built in his likeness, you have to believe that he endowed us with imagination, ingenuity, and the desire to create. And that's a long way of saying that if you see a problem, you do you believe that a lot of people have that same problem? Can you come up with a solution for that problem? And then is that solution marketable? I think the real key is this, by the way, more important is it is a big enough of an idea to pay your bills and feed your family because just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should. I see a lot of investors invest a lot of time, energy and money into something that never pays the bills and they wonder why they're not succeeding.

William Norvell: Okay. So I want to ask a two part question here that I think will take us as writers to one, I don't think we've given you a chance to share. Like, what was the disruptive idea for you with Fathom? Right. And then two on top of that, I heard about the nasty emails. I think this will be part of the same answer. But if it's not, I would love to know what keeps you going in the face of that? Did you just see it and you just knew it was the right answer, right? Or was it, you know, staying faithful and small steps? Or was it one big vision that you had that you just knew was going to work? You know what I mean? So what is the big innovation you were chasing? And then how do you stay? I mean, those are tough emails, you know, and in the face. How did you stay faithful in the midst of those times?

Josh Harley: Well, first, I'll tell you when every time I got one of those emails, it motivated me. It's almost a badge of honor when someone says something gymnastic, you know, because you're innovating, you're like you're breaking the space or disrupting the space. So when I first came into real estate, I didn't come in to be a real estate agent. I came in to do the same thing in automotive where I was doing Internet lead generation but doing for automotive. And then homebuilders are doing for real estate agents. And this was 2006 time period. And we all know what happened. 2006-2007 was the housing crisis. Right. The housing recession. What a horrible time to start a business. So I started a business all around lead generation and is incredibly successful at generating leads Where I was very unsuccessful, was getting paid for those leads because real estate agents were struggling to pay their bills. I'd spend, I think, the first ten deals I sent out to get paid on with. They actually got closed. I got paid on two deals out of ten at 20%. Success rate is not a good success rate. So I realized very quickly, you know, I had to pivot and that's why I said before is like, you're going to fail at times. That's where I think fail fast, you know, get past it. Don't keep chasing good money after bad. So where I sort of come up with scale, let me be a real estate agent and own the team. Instead, I'll generate leads for my team. That way I guarantee to get paid. I'm really glad that happened, though, because I failed that first when I pivoted very quickly. I realized there's just this huge opportunity in the real estate industry, not necessarily just for real estate leads, you know, generally leads for agents, but in how agents got paid. So, for example, I won't tell you the company I was with, but I was with a very large company. I started my team. I was incredibly successful my first year. I had a team, about 12 agents that worked for me. My first year in real estate closed hundreds of homes. The issue was that we gave over $100,000 of commission splits to that brokerage I was with. There's a lot of money. And for what? They never sent me a single lead. We're too big to be in their office space. Were too busy of the training classes. Like what was the value exchange? Now think in any business. It's incredibly important to understand what that value exchanges, you know what value you're giving it in exchange for what money you're getting back, and so on. So I started looking that and I realized, you know, why am I paying $100,000 a year? And that gave me that was my big aha moment where most people come into real estate and try to disrupt the space when it relates to the consumer, you know, with better websites or lower commissions to the consumer. I started thinking about how do I disrupt the space where it comes to the agents? How do I lift up and empower agents instead, and how do I help them make more money? And so what I did is I built a new brokerage that focused on the agent instead of the brokerage, made it very agent centric, instead of broker centric. And so we did is we provide all the tools, technology, training, resources of the legacy brands do, but at a very small flat transaction fee. So instead of paying an average about 3000-3500 per transaction, we charge $550 per transaction. And what's crazy about that, because I have a technology background, I was able to build technology in such a way that even though I charge $550 per transaction, I actually end up making more money than my peers who charge $3,500 per transaction. And that's kind of a big AHA for investors who are looking at our business like, Well, how is that even possible? So technology is allowed to streamline the operations, keep our costs low as we pass that savings on to agents and agents if they want to reduce their fees to the consumer, you know, lower commissions for selling homes or rebates on the buyer side, they can do that, but that's on them. So my focus is how do I lift up and empower the agents to make them be the best they can be? Allow them to make more money. And ultimately, that's been incredibly powerful for me as well, because, you know, where I was looking to build a business, what I realized that we're changing lives. And that's something that that drives me forward every single day, so if you ask. You know, the face of all that wall is nasty. What keeps driving forward is the stories I hear from the agents about how, you know, our business model, you know, save them from foreclosure or help pay for the kids college or whatever else. It's not a story I hear every once while. It's a story here literally weekly that drives me forward. So I'm a big believer that Fathom, you know, this company Fathom realty is my mission field gives me an opportunity to serve people in the way that Christ is, you know, and God has called us to do that.

Rusty Rueff: I'm curious about your decision. So there's technology and software that you built that enables these leads to be much more profitable, lower cost. Did you go through the discussion with yourself or with you and your advisors and board that we should keep this for ourselves or we should turn around and sell this to all real estate companies?

Josh Harley: So I was self-funded all the way up to the point we went public. We probably got two and half years ago. So self-funded through the whole time. I had to start the brokerage first. By doing that, I had to basically go several years out of paycheck, which really, you know, stressed my wife out, stressed me out. But every time I made money, I pumped it back into the business. And as a businessman of money, I started pumping into developing our own technology. So, again, a lot of people develop technology when it comes to consumer facing websites. Instead of that, I focused on building technology more of an ERP system like technology that allows us to run the brokerage more efficiently, which means less employees, less costs, less third party software. So that allows keep our costs incredibly low, and that's what allows us to continue to grow at the rate we do and be able to make more money on a per transaction basis than our peers do. So it's a hard way to answer that question. But the technology was the first vision, but I had to build the business first to be able to fund the technology. And so it kind of went in the iterations technologies first. So now your question is like that technology is so efficient for Fathom, why can't I use that to help empower more brokerages? And we're doing just that. So right now, our technology, we've got over 750 other companies using our technology, touching over 40 or 50,000 agents that utilize our technology. We have two technology companies. One is a big data aggregator, really focus on hyperlocal data. And then the other one is the basically ERP system that now includes agents websites, brokerage websites and so on. So it's the full solution, the next iteration. Is, you know, we've got a little bit more technology to develop that once we do licensing that technology to our competition, basically. There's 86,000 brokerages in this country and most of them are barely surviving. And yet we charge a fraction of what they do and we're thriving.

William Norvell: Wow, that's crazy. I didn't know there were 86,000 brokerages in the U.S.. That is a staggering number. I want to switch gears just a little bit. You gave us a little taste of the switch a little bit to how your faith has interacted with building Fathom. We saw you Matthew 20:26 on your website. And just just walk us through how that manifest itself and the organization that you've been building.

Josh Harley: So Matthew 20:26, the second part is, you know, whoever must be great must become a servant. And to me, that's really everything. So I mentioned before that Fathom Realty's more my mission field. I really believe that God is calling me to lead this company because we can't touch so many lives. But the way we do that is by serving others. You know, I think the greatest commandment is love. And so loving other serving others. If you look at our guiding principles and you can see it right on our website, our guiding principles are all based on biblical principles. And the very first one is love. And so, you know, when you think about serving other people, that's what God calls us to do. But also, even though it sounds altruistic, if you actually implement that into your personal life in your business, life is incredibly powerful. You know, so I'll say it like let's say as a real estate agent, the more you truly serve and love your clients and place them first, not the commissions, but truly placed their needs first, the more likely they are to refer other people to you and your business grows. Same thing with real estate agents. The more I truly serve and love my agents and place them first, not myself, not my needs, not the brokerage, but them, the more likely they are for other agents to us. And last month, 60% of our growth was from agents referring other agents. That's not me recruiting. That's agents telling other agents about how awesome Fathom is. You've got to join Fathom because look what they're doing for us. So I can sit there and brag about how great Fathom is. But the proof is in the pudding. When other agents are telling other agents about how great fathom is. And so that really stems from the idea of servant leadership. So my first job was in McDonald's. Now, this is McDonald's in Alaska. So I grew up in Alaska. Within the first six months of working McDonald's. I was 15 years old before I even turned 16. They promoted me to shift manager. Like here I am, like not even sixteen years old yet. And they promoted shift manager. You know, I've got adults that are now working for me. So I went to my father, who, by the way, is, you know, 35 years in the Coast Guard, but also a pastor. And so, you know, he's always in the Bible. And I made the mistake, maybe not the mistake, but the time I felt a mistake of asking him because he actually he was very high ranking in the military. He had hundreds of people beneath him, just like I did when I was in the military. And so I said, Dad, you know, what do I need to know about leadership? Now, I didn't use the term leadership back then was like, what you need to know about managing people. And what's a 15 year old sack him. Exactly. I said it, but so instead of telling me the answer, he said, Josh, I want you to tell me what the Bible says about leadership and about, you know, managing others. I was like, Really? And so he hands me a concordance and I start obeying my father. So I started to look into the corners and I went back that all I can find is stories about the deacons, basically. Right. That are serving the widows and orphans. He's like, I want you to dig a little deeper this. I want you to focus on the life of Christ. And that was the biggest aha of my life, because when you step outside of, you know, the story of Jesus and you think about from a business standpoint of a leadership standpoint, he was an incredible leader. You know, he poured himself. Yes. He spoke to the multitudes. He spoke to hundreds, if not thousands and thousands of people. But he poured into a few people and helped each one be their best so they can turn around and pour into other people so that they could turn around, pour in other people. And I realized that was really the secret to leadership, is not telling people what to do, but pouring into people, helping them be their best, serving them. And so by the time I was 17, I was the assistant store manager of McDonald's in the Marine Corps. I picked up Sergeant in two and a half years in the infantry. And the infantry usually takes about four and a half years to pick up corporal, which is E-4, I pick up Sergeant two and a half years. But all that came down to that one Bible study, really understanding the idea of serving other people. So I had the opportunity to get promoted. I had a few people beneath me. Instead of going out there drinking with them, I focused on helping them be better. And as my fire team shined and I ultimately shined, even though that wasn't the purpose when I helped them be their best, it makes me look good as well. And I came in another promotion and again and again and again. And so almost all my promotions were meritorious promotions. And so it's just it's amazing when you when you look at the Bible, I really do believe that the Bible is probably the greatest business book ever written. It has incredible so many business principles in the Bible you can use, even though you might be taken out of context a little bit. The fact is it works. And so I really think that the idea of servant leadership is powerful, and that's what really helped us excel in Fathom Realty. So as the more I truly serve and love our agents, the more they want to share the people about us. Every business meeting we have, we pray, and then we always ask us if we make a decision, how does it affect our people and if it negatively affects our people, we shouldn't do it even if it makes, you know, the company more money. And every time we made a hard decision like that, I really believe that God blesses that because the business are growing from it, because the employees are people see those decisions that you purposely did something that may have hurt you, but it was for their benefit. And then you get better productivity or better referrals or whatever out of that. So it's amazing when you apply God's principles into your business.

William Norvell: Amen, I'm turning over to Rusty here in a second, but one more question. So I'm thinking about that. So you obviously have 10,000 agents now, right? I mean, large, large organizations. So I'm curious if you could take us back in time a little bit to maybe when you had five, 20, 50, 100 people? Right. What are the stories of servant leadership? Because, you know, we get a lot of for and there's a lot of stuff that needs to get done, right. You don't have enough people to do enough things. You know, legal docs need to be read and outreach needs to happen. But everything you say, like I believe you write, it's like I'm in. And then I go, okay, but how does that work when I have so many things to get done that I wake up and I just think about my people? What are the specific actions you might have taken? Maybe that seemed counterintuitive at the time, but paid off in the long run.

Josh Harley: I think it's priorities. You know, ultimately, if you believe that you want to run your business and God honoring way, then you need to put other people first. You need to follow, you know, his commandments for our lives and the first one being love. So one of the things I do, there's almost not a day that goes by. It used to be not the other day that I don't reach out to 2 to 3 people and just ask them how they're doing. And the fact that there's 10,600 agents, not to mention I've got hundreds of employees in seven different companies. And so it's important to pick up the phone to call people. Sometimes they hung up on me because I don't really believe the CEO is calling them that to call their manager like, hey, would you let Susan know that it really is me? But it means a lot to them, what I do. And so what I have to think about is, okay, that has real intrinsic value, more value than you can actually quantify. And so I look at here's the 50,000 things I've got to do today. Which ones drive the company forward, which ones make the company money, which ones improve the culture. And those need to be the focus. All the other things I can outsource, I'll hire someone to do the things that don't make the company money and don't improve the culture. But I can't outsource culture. Culture has to start with me and I've got to drive that into my people. And so not only do I do that myself, I try to show my managers to do the same thing, so they reach out to their people. They're always pouring into their people and loving on their people. We've got a hopefully soon to be too, but right now we have a chaplain because we can't call a director of culture, but he's our chaplain. So we've got chaplain, the company, that anytime something happens, you know, he immediately reaches out to them. You know, if they're open to it, he'll pray with them. Find out what they need, and then we'll reach out to all of our agents and will, you know, raise money for them or we'll get close together. If someone lost their house, we'll find a place for them to stay. And so, you know, we do a lot to feed that culture because the culture is incredibly important. But I think that's really the key is figure out, identify what is important to the business, you know, culture driving revenue and find the things that can be outsourced that aren't as important, that don't make the company money and let someone else do it. Yes, it's going to cost a a bit of money, but that's going to reward you long term. Now, don't be do a $20 an hour job. You know, when you should be doing something is going to make a company $1,000 an hour or be pouring into people who will be able to be more productive that collectively over time will be able to generate thousands of dollars more per hour than you could do on your own.

Rusty Rueff: I want to ask you to give advice to our listeners, we're going to go to Lightning Round here in a second with William. But so we talk a lot about how faith can shape our work and shape our entrepreneurial journey. But also our work and our entrepreneurial journey can shape and grow our faith. If we pay attention to it. And so if you've got a story or advice to give to our listeners about how your faith has grown or been shaped because of your entrepreneurial journey, that would just be awesome. It'd be an awesome gift.

Josh Harley: Yeah, You know, so I'll tell you that my faith has definitely gotten stronger, you know, as I've grown the business as well, because I see the fruits of that labor. So I see the results. So, you know, as I follow God's command in my life and I try to do the right thing, right. People see that. People see that. I try to always make the right decisions, do the right things. People see that I love on them. I always try to place them first. And so as people see that, whether they believe in God or not, it inspires them, inspires them to be better, inspires them to be like me when I'm trying to be like Christ. So, I mean, I try to be like Christ, and even they don't believe. They try to be like me. Then we end up all improving. And then when they ask me, Why do you do what you do? Like, I don't shove my faith on people's throats. I also don't hide my faith either. But I don't shut it down their throats. My job. We're not a Christian company per say. Meaning the mission statement of our company is not to lead people for Christ. But it's really important because the more I do that, people often ask me, Why do you do what you do? And oops, don't ask that question because now I'm going to share my faith. Because you asked. Right now I get to share my faith. And so the point I'm making is that the more I lead my faith and live my faith in the business, the more I see change in other people's lives as well. And that inspires me to keep going because it shows me that God is real and God is powerful when God changes lives, but God changes lives through us. He doesn't need us. He didn't need us at all. Doesn't need our money, doesn't need us. But he uses us because he knows we need it, too.

William Norvell: Got it. Okay. We're going to move to our last 5 minutes. We called the lightning round. That's why we are moving fast here. The theory is 30 to 60 second answers. We do not have a countdown timer. We do not hold to that policy, but it's loose, and it's exciting if you lean into it. So we're a jump in. First question going to be about Alaska. And I'm going to buy the policy because that's the first trip I ever surprise my wife with. So I know Homer, Alaska. Well, I almost got killed by a giant whale. Different story for a different time. Exciting place. I love it. So you grew up there. What is the craziest Alaska story you have?

Josh Harley: I'm a t crazy ice core that you're not expecting. So I told you I worked at McDonald's. A McDonald's? That's fine. Dining rooms out in Alaska. So every night at 6 p.m., we would put candlelight on all the tables. It became fine dining every night in Alaska, you don't get a lot Alaska like all the shopping is done via. Back in the day, the Sears catalog, the J.C. Penney catalog. My brother's still a police officer up there. Also has a Krav Maga gym up there as well. I mean, things are crazy expensive, but I could tell you lots of story about hunting and fishing and bears. Oh, no. But I thought that was a pretty crazy one. No one ever believes that McDonald's is fine dining in Alaska.

Rusty Rueff: It's not that you don't get a lot of things in Alaska. You get a lot of sunlight in the summer. There's a lot of sunlight up there in the summer.

Josh Harley: It's so obnoxious. That's not the problem. Well, actually, it is the problem. So people don't know this about Alaska. But you ever drive home at nighttime, like when the sun is setting, the sun's in your eyes. It's like, I hate that time of day. Well, that's how it's like in Alaska, like especially up in the Fairbanks areas. The further north you go, it's always you're right, it follows the horizon because it never sets, right? So it's always all day long. It's always in your eyes. It's obnoxious, so it's not as good as it sounds.

Rusty Rueff: Okay, so who can write a better those little pithy, cute real estate ads about the charming, cozy, you know, fixer upper who can do it better, a writer or chatGPT oof!

Josh Harley: I would say an experienced agent could probably write it better. But with time. I've played a lot with chatGTP, and it's crazy. I asked to write a country Western song about someone who finds God in the waves, you know, on the beach. And it was amazing. It was really, really good. It was like, Oh my goodness. I made a few tweaks to it. It was a winner winter winter chicken dinner.

William Norvell: Okay, last minute. Our favorite thing that we love to close with. We love to close by going back to God's Word, which you've done a few times here in this podcast, of course. But we love to end with just a place that maybe God speaking to you. It could be something to meditate on. Your whole life, could be something you read this morning, could be a story, could be a verse, but just something that a place in God's Word that's coming alive to you and potentially new ways in the season you find yourself.

Josh Harley: I love that one. And it's a perfect way to end this right now in church. Actually planting a church in Wylie, my brother in law is actually the pastor. And right now we're going through Genesis. I have a bad habit of reading ahead all the time we're in Genesis three, and I think I'm in Genesis 43, I tend to read ahead just a little bit, but I was kind of reading about Joseph and I've read his story. I can't tell you how many times. And it started making me think about David also, and it started making me think that, you know, every time I read the Bible, I learned something new and I had an epiphany. I was just thinking about Joseph, and it made me think about David and so many others, but about how they were faced with struggles that would break most people. And that this principle hit me, you know, don't be the victim of your story. Be the hero. Make the decision to stand up and fight for a better life by becoming really a better you. And I think God helps us do that. So now is the time. You know not tomorrow, not someday, but now. And the Bible is the greatest self. I said, This is the greatest self-help book ever written for both personal and business. And I would encourage everyone to look for the answers in its pages when faced with life struggles.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, awesome to have you on the show. And I know William and I just enjoyed this. Sorry Henry wasn't here to enjoy it as well, but he'll listen in and we just pray for a blessing over your business and over you and your family. Keep doing what you're doing, brother, and we appreciate you.

Josh Harley: Thank you, Rusty. Thank you William, appreciate you both.

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