Jordan Raynor is a serial entrepreneur, best selling author, and community builder who speaks to the eternal impact of work. He has written several best selling books including, “Called to Create: A Biblical Invitation to Create, Innovate, and Risk,” “Redeeming Your Time,” and “Master of One.” Today, we talk to Jordan about his most recent book, “The Creator in You,” which is written specifically for kids. Jordan wants the next generation to understand that on the sixth day of creation, God gave us the calling to be his image bearers and to fill the earth by doing what he did first: create.

Episode Transcript

Rusty Rueff: Hey, everyone, once again, you founders the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We can't tell you how much we appreciate week after week you downloading and being a part of our community. So thank you. Our guest today is Jordan Raynor. He's a serial entrepreneur. He's a best selling author. And he's a community builder who speaks to the eternal impact of work. He's written several bestselling books, including Called To Create a Biblical Invitation to Create, Innovate and Risk. He also wrote Redeeming Your Time and Master of One. And today we talked to Jordan about his most recent book, The Creator in You, which is written specifically for kids. See, Jordan wants the next generation to understand that on the sixth day of creation, God gave us the calling to be His image bearers and to fill the earth by doing what he did first create. Through this book, Jordan hopes to inspire readers of all ages to view the work they create, whether it's crafts or sand castles or even future cities with purpose, enthusiasm and joy. In addition to his work as an author, Jordan is the CEO of the venture backed tech startup Threshold 360, which is on a mission to allow anyone to virtually step inside any location on earth. Jordan will be joining us as a speaker for Faith Driven Entrepreneur live in September. And today we look forward to having a close friend of the movement join us on the FDE podcast. Let's listen in.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. And I do not want to time did this because I think that today's podcast in some ways is going to be timeless. We're going to be talking about reaching a new audience with the Faith Driven Entrepreneur message. So I don't necessarily want to say exactly when this is, even though it is at the end of July 2022. But it's been a little while since Rusty, William and I got together, have been at least a month, maybe two. And I have missed you. I've missed you both.

Wiliam Norvell: You too.

Rusty Rueff: Well done on not time stamping it. That was really well done.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah.

Wiliam Norvell: I would I would talk about how it's been a crazy summer, but that would add a timestamp.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And not keeping it hot. It's not hot anywhere. It's really hot.

Henry Kaestner: For our frequent listeners that will know. And there are some I tell you, I've been so encouraged by actually funny people said, you know, I've listened to every one of your Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast and like really it's unbelievable. Even I haven't. I missed a couple and I don't even know that I've listen to the ones that I missed. But some people have done that. But if you've been listening to this for a long time. Thank you. It's an incredible encouragement, number one. Number two, yes. If you find this is encouragement to you, please do think if there are other faith driven entrepreneurs that you think would benefit from listening to this. But you also know that Rusty is bicoastal and Rusty, William and I hail from the Bay Area. I think that the message we have is it goes beyond the bounds of geography, and it most absolutely does in the summertime when Rusty joins us from Rhode Island.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, on the other coast, it's all good. And, you know, over the years you didn't think about William. You were in Atlanta. Now you're back, you know? So, yeah, we've been all over the place with each other. It's all great.

Henry Kaestner: Indeed. And then but let's get to our guest today as we're talking before we went live with Jordan Raynor. It's a surprise to all of us that Jordan hasn't been on the show yet. Jordan has been passionate about the craft, a faith driven entrepreneurship and being used by God in the marketplace for His glory. The occasion of this interview is about a book that he released that really just captured me, and we can talk about that a bit, but I think I want to talk about hopefully more of his work in general, too. But specific to this, why we're talking today. There's something beautiful about the gospel of Jesus Christ and that it is infinite in its simplicity and infinite in its complexity. It's so simple that even a child can understand the beauty of the message of the Gospel, and yet we can plumb the depths of the Bible and the work that God has done in the world. And we would in even angels look to learn these things, look into these things. That is the gospel. So they've been around for millions of years. They haven't completely figured it out. So it's infinite in its complexity and it's infinite in its beauty. But Jordan has written a book that talks about how Faith driven entrepreneurship can actually be really, really simple, too. And the call to create is all through this new book that he's written. And it is beautifully illustrated. And I'm so grateful for a book that allows a parent to be able to help a young child understand how God might use their creativity for His glory and to bring that young child close to him as they progress. Because nothing like that, to the best of my knowledge, has ever existed before. Jordan's gone off and done it, and he's done it with excellence. So, Jordan, welcome to the program. Thank you for your work. Tell us a bit about it.

Jordan Raynor: It's a joy to be with you guys, Tim Keller said. This book is almost unique. I don't I don't know what would make it unique. I got to ask Tim, but almost unique is good enough. I feel really good about that. Yes, it's pretty good. So, honestly, you know, the seed of this idea came when I was writing my first book for grown ups Called to Create, which I interviewed you, Henry, for you make it appearances, you know, and called to create. And that book is really was me trying to help us all see that you know before God tells us that he is holy or loving or omnipotent, he tells us he's a God who creates and makes things but not a God who creates alone a God who, in his inimitable goodness and grace, invites you and I to create alongside of him. And when I was writing that book, there was the seed of this idea that one day I wanted to translate that message in the language that kids could understand. And then when I started having kids of my own, I think that seed started to germinate. So fast forward to today, six years later, I've got three young daughters and I have read them, I don't know, maybe a dozen books on the creation account of Genesis one. And you guys know the drill right. All of these books follow the same pattern on day one God created this, on day two God created that. Day three, four, five, six, the end. And these books, if I'm being frankly are driving bonkers because we're burying the lead of the creation account, the sixth day was not the end of creation? It was just the beginning. It's when God pass the baton to you and me and told us to go fill this earth. And so that's the message we're trying to convey in the creator in you. It's essentially a three act drama. In 3 minutes, where in an act one you're seeing God create. We're using language and illustrations that show him working right, act two about a third of the way through the book. It says this, it says And now you might think that our story is ending because every other book about Genesis one tells you it's ending. We don't say that. But the fact this is just beginning because God made you to look like Him, to act and work and create with him, because while in six days God created a lot, there are so many things that he simply did not like bridges and baseballs, sand castles and s'mores. God asked us to create and fill the planet with more. And then the last act is just this like beautiful montage illustrated by my illustration partner, Jonathan Voss. Watching these kids fill the earth with art and lemonade stands and businesses and tree forts and culture. And what we've seen is kids have latched on to this book is our hope is that they're going to view their current work, whether it's art projects around the house, whether it's their future careers, whenever, with renewed God, ordained purpose and joy and by God's grace, we're already seeing some of that for just a couple of months after the book's been released.

Henry Kaestner: You know, so many great stories of dropouts getting out there and starting a business. Do you see entire generation of kids dropping out of preschool to start businesses?

Jordan Raynor: I don't know about that. I don't know that I go that far.

Henry Kaestner: I'm telling you. But there's something about the cultural influences enriching our kids. Yeah. And one of the things I have heard you talk about before is that church, of course, is a great thing. And yet we know that there are cultural influences they're going to shape our children. Tell us a little bit more about what that was.

Jordan Raynor: Yes, oh, my goodness. The sad, cold, hard fact. Is that our kids are going to grow up with the largest generation of kids on record who have no religious affiliation, none whatsoever. And as those kids get older, they're not going to walk into the walls of a church to learn about Jesus for the first time. Maybe they will. Maybe God work a miracle, and they will. But the statistics as we know them now, that's likely not going to happen. So where are they going to learn about Christ? They're going to learn about Christ through mainstream films created by apprentices of Jesus, through novels that subtly and winsomely and artistically awaken people's hearts to their need for redemption. They're going to learn about God through businesses created by founded by current Faith driven entrepreneurs and the next generation of Faith driven entrepreneurs. They're going to learn about God through culture. I strongly believe that more than likely it's going to be by re embracing the first commission that's called to create. Then our kids are going to be the most effective at the Great Commission and the call to make disciples. And I think we can plant the seed of that message right now, helping our kids understand these very simple truths that, number one, God creates and number two. He invites them to create alongside of them. That's part of the reason why I wrote The Creator in you.

Rusty Rueff: So Jordan, I mean, I totally agree with you on the church side. And I find it somewhat sad, though, because the church at one time it was the pioneer right in arts and music. That's where we went to find the Handel's Messiah. You know, they performed them in churches. So but that's kind of receded. So can we get back to that? And if you think we can, how do we do it?

Jordan Raynor: I think we can use the deal. The Church is the leader in arts and music and culture for a long, long, long time. It's only in the last 200 years that we've really lost our mantle of leadership here. And you know what else has happened in the last 200 years? At the risk of sounding heretical, please hear me out. The Great Commission, for the first time in church history has become the only commission of the church functionally right. If you go back more than 200 years, the church history. Number one, the term great commission literally didn't exist. Let's not forget this. This isn't a part of the biblical manuscripts, is it? Great? Yeah, but it's not the only thing. Also, if you go backward 200 years, the early church never interpreted Jesus words in Matthew 28 to go and make disciples of all nations as the exclusive thing that the church is supposed to do. Historically, the church has accepted that Christians have a dual vocation. The first commission to create, to fill the earth, to subdue it, to implement God's sovereign rule over every square inch of creation. And the Great Commission. The Call to make disciples. Can we get back to our leadership in the arts and business culture? Absolutely. But it's got to be by ensuring that we don't preach the great commission so myopically that we totally drown out the first commission, which God has never, ever once in his word, rescinded.

Rusty Rueff: You know, it feels to me like you're calling out to entrepreneurs that you're calling out for those who want to build on what we have and try to take it to the next level to play a role in this. I mean, do you see that?

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, totally. Right. Entrepreneurs have disproportionate impact and influence in this world. Right. And Faith driven entrepreneurs, those animated by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, have tremendous opportunities to, number one, scratch off the thin veil between heaven and earth. Right? To make this world, to make the kingdom come a little bit more on Earth as it is in heaven. Number two, to make disciples. We've already talked about that. And number three, just a real foundational level. I don't think we talk about this enough. The work of entrepreneurs, the work of any Christian doing good work that contributes to human flourishing simply brings God pleasure. Bringing pleasure brings them happiness. The Psalms say that God takes delight in every detail of the lives of the Godly. That includes you going to work tomorrow and building your business with excellence and love and in accordance with this commands. And if you do that, I think we can back up the fact that the father's smiling upon us, that we bring him joy, and that should be good in and of itself. That in and of itself should be enough to motivate us to go to work tomorrow. Do the work a little bit better, simply as a means of making our father happy.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. So that I mean, that should remind all of us that creativity and in our ability to create is a God given call. Doesn't matter what you do, right? We all can create, but it seems like we get barriers in front of us, right? It's like we should be as creative, we should push through. But you know, either the way we're raised or culture, society says, no, you can't. That's too big of an idea. No, you should not. I mean, I almost hear like you're saying, that we've got to figure out a way to go back to be childlike.

Jordan Raynor: Yeah.

Rusty Rueff: You know, where we can see the clouds and see the animals in the clouds and it doesn't matter to someone says, you know, no, you can't.

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, totally. And I think there's this idea that you've never won. Some people have grown up believing that they're not creative. And theologically that just doesn't work. Right? It's [...]work. It says we are not creation optional beings because we're made in the image of the creator God. Right. Number two, though, even those of us who do feel creative, do feel entrepreneurial, are stunted by the tyranny of utility. Right? We are so utilitarian obsessed. Everything has to have function. Everything has to have explicit purpose that leads to direct our why. Listen, I'm all about our why, but look at Genesis. Look at Revelation 21. We worship a God who creates with gratuitous, needless, excessive beauty. There are 17,500 species of butterflies in the world. There's not a lot of purpose in that. It is God, show it off how creative he is. The New Jerusalem. The base of the New Jerusalem is 5600 miles of precious stones. That's roughly from my house in Florida to Romania. What's the purpose of 5600 miles of precious stones? Nothing. Just excessive beauty. God creates with excessive joy and excessive beauty. And we could do the same, right? We don't have to stay confined to the utilitarian boxes. No, this is overly simplistic, right? We don't have a ton of time to really draw out the nuance here. That's really important. But I think that vision is part of what we're trying to capture in the Creator in you. You're showing God just creating with extravagance and beauty.

Wiliam Norvell: Oh, that is beautiful, Jordan. I know you said we don't have time to go into all the nuance. I want to go one small layer deeper, though. So great. Someone listening. That's right. I love it. I've never thought about 17,000 species of butterflies, although I do read a great insect book with my four year old every night and I learn a lot. Like, what does that mean for a day to day entrepreneur? So, so much traveling has been in 5600 milestones. Like does that mean do some wasteful things? Does it mean do them good? What does that mean for somebody listening?

Jordan Raynor: Here's what it means to me. Here's how I apply to my work as an author, and entrepreneur. I fight real hard for originality and not just riffing off of others ideas. I fight really hard for true breakthrough, innovative ideas because I know the Creator, God is the source of infinite creativity and ingenuity, lives and dwells and works through me. Right? That's what it means practically, that if I come up through a problem and I'm only making the product 5% better than the next thing, I'm trying to go back to the drawing board remembering that the God of the universe you create 17,500 species of butterflies is in me and helps me to create things that are truly original because that's whose image I made in.

Wiliam Norvell: Hmm. That's good. That's good. Okay, so perfect segway. Tell us your creation story. How did you get where you are? You just kind of gave us the tip of the iceberg there. But how did you get into writing and encouraging people? How did you get into this path and where did you come from?

Jordan Raynor: Oh, man, it's very messy path. That's the short answer.

Wiliam Norvell: Aren't they all.

Jordan Raynor: Right. So here's the short story. First vocational love, eighth grade. I knew I was going to run for political campaigns for the rest of my life. And I was, like, pretty serious about this. Through high school, I was running campaigns in high school and college, did a quick internship at the Bush White House, and then decided that wasn't for me, pivoted to entrepreneurship, did that for about ten years and had a lot of fun doing it. And about half of that time that I spent full time in tech, I had no construct of a theology of work. I had no idea how my work mattered to God. I was a Christian, but there was no connection between my faith and my work. And one Sunday I was at church. I was thinking about starting a new venture, and I heard, unfortunately, what's a very familiar sermon that I think a lot of our listeners have heard this sermon that was making me feel guilty for wanting to go start another business when there was a need for people to move and plant churches and move to mud huts 5000 miles away from home. And so my wife and I started praying really seriously about two paths. Number one, start another business or number two, go plant a church. And by God's grace, alone, I had a godly mentor. My wife pulled me aside after church one day, Skye led bible study in our church. He's like, Hey, I heard you're thinking about planting a church. I am like yeah, I'm thinking this guy's going to pat me on the back, maybe write a check to get us going. And he just looked me square in the eyes. It's like, Yeah, I got to be honest, that sounds really dumb for you specifically. And I was like, What are you talking about? He's like, Jordan, you're a gifted entrepreneur. You have created jobs. You've created some wealth for your investors. Why do you think you have to go plant a church in order to quote unquote, do ministry? Don't you get to your work as an entrepreneur is ministry. And I said, no, I have literally no idea what you're talking about. So he gave me Tim Keller Every Good Endeavor, and it radically changed my life. It helped me understand what we've been talking about that before God tells us He is love. He tells us that He's the creator God, is I saying called to create, the first entrepreneur. And that's just radically shifted my perspective. So obviously, I didn't go to plant a church. I went and ran somebody else's business for a few years, this business called Threshold 360. And then eventually the irony, of course, is I left that world to write full time, encouraging others to stay where they're at and do ministry as entrepreneurs. But that's the short, rough story of how this all came to be.

Wiliam Norvell: That's amazing. And I want to poke at one piece of that because a lot of entrepreneurs and we have aspirational entrepreneurs, of course, listen as well. I want to ask you a question about when you said we prayed really seriously with your wife. Yeah. What does that mean? What did that look like to you? What how did you discern the voice of God when you were trying to decide? You know, obviously, from I'm listening to you, I. Well, both of those would probably be pleasing to him one way or the other. There was no wrong answer. But also, how did you decide and what does prays seriously mean to you and what did it mean to you during that season?

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, it's really good. Praying seriously, didn't mean we're, like, weeping and laying on the floor . It's just me praying consistently about this thing and taking one small step at a time in the direction of exploring these options. But honestly, the way we made the decision at the time was largely through that mentor of mine, who said it sounded really dumb for me to go plant in a church. It was God speaking through another believer that helped us discern the right path. I wouldn't have said this back then, but I think now, looking back, I can say as an encouragement to listeners in so long as our decisions aren't out of step with God's word, I don't think there is a right or wrong decision. I think God in his goodness gives us a lot of freedom. He has this big picture mission for all of us to bring him glory in everything that we do. He says, alright, kids, how do you want to do that? Choose your own adventure. Like those old books used to say, right? I think he gives us a lot of freedom in them. And now we need to do that wisely. We need to seek out counsel as we do, his scriptures really clear about that. The Scripture is also clear that regardless what path we choose, the Lord's purposes will prevail every single time. Tim Keller says for a Christian, there is no Plan B, and as I've gotten older and further in my career, that's given me a lot of freedom to just make decisions and getting frankly increasingly focused in my career on the work. I think I could do most exceptionally well for the glory to God and the good of others.

Wiliam Norvell: Amen. Amen. Yeah. Prayer, scripture and wise counsel. I remember hearing that from my crew director 20 years ago. It's good advice, obliging, good places. And so last question I have for you and turn over to the other team here. So you have served as a chairman of a venture backed startup. So, you know, we don't talk exclusively about tech startups here, of course, but that's an experience of yours. What did you learn? What did you learn? Being in the middle of that and understanding what's going on and what were your experiences?

Jordan Raynor: It's a lot more fun to go to board meetings when you're not CEO. That's that's what I learned. No, I mean, so looking back on my trajectory and I'm still pretty heavily engaged in this business, Threshold 360, I ran it as CEO for two and a half years. It's actually one of the first times I met Henry was when I was running that business, and then I been chairman, now executive chairman for three years and I think in that transition. In that transition of roles. I think the number one thing I learned is that I'm not that special, that I could pass the baton to the next leader of that business and nothing would happen. Nothing would break. I remember coming to the office one week after I stepped down as CEO for my first one on one with my successor. And I'm like checking in on my old team, to meet these people I hire like, Oh, how are things going? And I'm expected to be like. Oh man the places burned down. We need you back. Please come back whenever. And it was just like, yeah everything's great, everything's cool, and it spoke to a truth. I think we see all throughout Scripture. God doesn't need any one person to accomplish the work He wants done in the world. Right? He didn't need Moses to lead his people into the Promised Land, so he chose Joshua. He didn't need David to complete the temple, so he chose Solomon. He doesn't need me to do anything if I die tomorrow with unfinished symphonies. And the things that were on my to do list are still on God's to do list. He's going to complete them with or without me. And I don't know, like that enables me to rest. It enables me to be at peace with my never ending to do list. And talk a little bit about this in my book, Redeeming Your Time. And I just saw that firsthand with that experience with Threshold and making that trip. There's I'm not that special. Neither are you. And the irony is that's an encouraging thing. It's a freeing think. It's a life giving truth that we find in God's word.

Henry Kaestner: So we are and we aren't. Let me push back on that a little bit.

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, good.

Henry Kaestner: So without saying that you're wrong because you're not wrong.

Jordan Raynor: Say I'm wrong. That's all right.

Henry Kaestner: Well, I think it's the beauty of the tension between the fact that we are incredibly special. We're creating the image of this creative [...] where his image bearers, of course, we're very special. So special that he sent his son to die for us because he want to redeem. And yet, of course, all the things you say are incredibly important and incredibly true. He does not need us to accomplish his purposes. But wow, what a special thing it is. When we lean into the invitation, we accept the invitation to participate in what he's doing for his glory. And that's one of the things in my entrepreneurial journey I've gotten a little bit more comfortable with over time, which is this kind of concept of selfish ambition, which is, well, yes, the scripture that talks about taking up a cross is true and applicable. There is God has created me in His image, and it created me with a yearning to be happy, to feel God's pleasure. When you think about the Chariots of Fire movie, and so I'm about experiencing God's joy, and I think that we have this opportunity to lean into that. But if we think that it has to be done under our power, it won't happen and we won't experience any joy. Yeah, so just navigate .

Jordan Raynor: Very well said.

Henry Kaestner: balance between not being important and yet being incredibly important at the same time. I miss that balance of all the time.

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, me too. And I think what's helping me is realizing that. It is in who Christ says I am. That makes me special. I have no inherent specialness. Right? He calls me an adopted child of God. Right. And that gives me infinite worth and dignity. And if you want to use the word, quote unquote, specialness. Right. And yet at the same time. I am just one of billions of actors in this Grand Kingdom building drama that God has invited me into, and I love getting lost as an extra in that story.

Rusty Rueff: If our listeners are anything like me right now, I'm sitting here going, Why can't I have Jordan as my board chair? I mean?

Jordan Raynor: Trust me. If they knew, they wouldn't be thinking that.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. No, but, you know, approaching it in the way that you approach it with humility, with sort of a lot of self-actualization. But I'm not going to let you get away from here without imparting some wisdom from that seat as the board chair or as a, you know, significant board member to our entrepreneurs who are trying to work with their boards and be more effective, be more productive, have better relationships, you know, just leave us with some nuggets here that we can take with us.

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, I'll leave you with maybe the number one piece of advice. Not maybe definitely the number one piece of advice that I've given to our CEO over and over and over again. When you're running a startup, this growing really quickly, everything looks important and almost nothing is right. And so you've got to make the time when you have no time, when you apparently have no time. You've got to make the time to discern what's really essential. And oftentimes that looks like doing nothing. Nothing, literally, literally. Just take it a walk away from your laptop, not answering my emails as soon as they come in and just making time to think right. I really believe that's the silver bullet to effectiveness. When you're running an organization that's changing and growing so rapidly is the discipline to break away from the laptop and just think, right? So that's one thing I'm always coaching our CEOs. Here's the other piece of advice I would give between CEOs and boards. I've seen some CEOs make this mistake before where they treat board meetings. This is real practical advice board meetings as just reports, right? Like I'm coming in or reporting on the business. That is not a great use of everybody's time. Right. Use an email report or something ahead of the meeting to brief everybody on the core metrics or whatever and tee up the things you want to talk about in the room and be vulnerable with your board. Your board knows that you don't have it all figured out, that you don't have all the answers to your questions. So you're going to have a much better experience and frankly, a much more fruitful business. If you come into the room with legitimate questions that you don't know the answers to and humbly submit yourself to the expertize of people who have already been there, it can help you solve the problem.

Rusty Rueff: It's great advice.

Henry Kaestner: Indeed.

Rusty Rueff: Great advice.

Henry Kaestner: Okay. This is a time in our program when we go to lightning round.

Jordan Raynor: Lightning round.

Henry Kaestner: And to keep you on your toes. Two rules. Number one, whatever show notes the team sent out to you in advance about what the lightning around questions would be. It won't be those.

Jordan Raynor: Great I love this.

Henry Kaestner: And now you're really on your toes.

Jordan Raynor: This is great. I love this

Henry Kaestner: Number two, you've got to keep your responses to 30 seconds or less.

Jordan Raynor: Done.

Henry Kaestner: Or you get disqualified.

Jordan Raynor: Disqualified? What happens then? Negative points. Okay. I get.

Henry Kaestner: It is just awful things.

Rusty Rueff: Oh you don't want to go into it.

Henry Kaestner: Okay. You ready?

Jordan Raynor: I'm ready.

Henry Kaestner: Okay. Creator in you. I think we've established on this podcast that it's a book that every parent is, if indeed they love their children, should go. Okay.

Jordan Raynor: Important [...].

Henry Kaestner: Okay. You are the parent. You're the father of three girls. What is the second most important book for a parent to buy and read with their children?

Jordan Raynor: The Jesus Storybook Bible.

Henry Kaestner: There you go. Gosh, that's well answered. I'm right with you on that one. Okay. That was very good you use much less.

Jordan Raynor: That was 2 seconds.

Wiliam Norvell: But you don't get the 27 seconds back to the book.

Jordan Raynor: Ok Got it got it.

Wiliam Norvell: Clear on rules. In fact, just don't add up, these don't add up.

Henry Kaestner: In fact, since we now know that you blew out your quota, you now have to do the next one in less than 3 seconds.

Jordan Raynor: Got it. Got it.

Henry Kaestner: You spent nine months recruiting a replacement. Very important. The transition. You had at threshold 360. Give us just one nugget. Just one thing to think about when finding a replacement. Finding your successor please.

Jordan Raynor: Don't think about people. Think about profile. Even if you got people in mind who could be great for the job on the team outside the company. Ignore the name. Profile the role. Who do you need? Agnostic of names. That's it

Henry Kaestner: That's a very good common mistake I've made is I've got somebody in mind and I just try to fit them in the role. And then a lot of times it doesn't work well because I didn't start with profile first. That was great wisdom. Very good. Okay, number three, you're now a creative. You've been an operator, entrepreneur, investor. You're a creative. What do you overcome? What is a go to to overcome writer's block?

Jordan Raynor: I honestly don't get writer's block. I get this question a lot.

Henry Kaestner: Wow.

Jordan Raynor: It never happens. And I think it's related two things. Number one, I write at the exact same time every day. I don't wait for inspiration or strike. I write from 745 to 9:45 a.m. every single day, and I don't just read books and let them sit there. I read and take notes as I go and I have a library of 5500 notes. So if I got writer's block, I just go into my note. Archive in Evernote, search by tag, see what's building up and double down on that topic. I'll know if that's helpful.

Henry Kaestner: Well done, partners. you have anything, I could go on in this forever. I'm fascinated by this. And Jordan's doing very.

Rusty Rueff: Always write inside. Or did you go outside sometimes to write.

Jordan Raynor: Oh man, I live in Tampa in the summer, so never outside in the summer. I will say this, this is a writer's block answer. Actually, if I'm like really stumped on something, I'll change location. I'll go to a coffee shop. Or if it's a really hard problem, I walk and 100% of the time I solve the problem.

Wiliam Norvell: That's a good percentage. You should probably walk more.

Jordan Raynor: I probably walk a lot more.

Wiliam Norvell: Yeah, just throwing that out there. Okay. So I've recently been turned back on to fiction, so this may be a question random two fiction books for creative people to think through, and that might spark something that some of us that just keep reading business books and nonfiction books maybe need to break out of.

Jordan Raynor: I think I've read two fiction books maybe in my entire life, so I'm not the best person. [...]. Narnia. Right. I do love Narnia. I read it every few years. I do not do a lot of fiction, but I have been reading more nonfiction that reads like fiction. That's very narrative driven that some of my favorite books. I just read an extraordinary book on the Apollo eight mission. The first guys to go to the moon. It's called Rocketman. It was one of the best written books I've ever read. It reminded me a lot of my all time favorite book, Shoe Doc by Phil Knight. It was just so beautifully written.

Wiliam Norvell: Agree, incredible, incredible book. Yeah, historical fiction counts. That's fun, too.

Rusty Rueff: Do you think that God storyboarded the creation story?

Jordan Raynor: I sure hope so. I sure hope so. Like a Pixar film? Yeah.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. I mean, he storyboarded it out and then he said, okay, now I'm going to go do it. Or do you think you just did it off the cuff?

Jordan Raynor: I don't know. I mean. All right. Let's look at all right. Let's let's really answer the question. Look at Exodus. And they're like, I don't know what it is. 13 chapters of Exodus, where God is giving insanely detailed plans for building the Tabernacle. Mm hmm. I don't know. I think we worship a God who plans. Hopefully, they took the form of storyboards. I don't know. I don't think he creates on a way. He can..sure. Of course he do whatever he wants, Sovereign. But yeah, that's a good question. It's a fun question.

Wiliam Norvell: But if it turns out it was like a BlackBerry app. Who knew? Right.

Jordan Raynor: Who knew?

Henry Kaestner: [...] I'm in the Old Testament now. I'm doing the Bible when you're with Nicky Gumbel and just finishing out Kings. I got to tell you that when you think about the juxtaposition with the care and the detail and the planning and the beauty and the majesty of what Solomon's Temple must have looked like, and then the destruction. And part of it is just bit by bit, it's dismantling with the good and the bad kings of Judah that just lost their way. And then these kings came in and they, you know, they dismantle the bronze, and then the Holy Sea was taken for parts and just, oh, my goodness. And I just my hope for those listeners that are faith driven entrepreneurs is that we will build something for God's glory and that it will last not because He needs it, but because these are things that can bear witness to him. And that that when we talk about succession, that the people that will go ahead and run the enterprise are going to be the next generation to take the mantle of bringing about God's glory in the marketplace, who will continue to be men and women after God's heart and that his people will not be dismantled and sent off into a Babylonian captivity? But man, it's just so depressing just to see the dismantling of that temple that God spent so much time and thought and planning and executing on. Hmm.

Jordan Raynor: And listen, I'm going to go here. Let's not forget this. This is a whole other episode. Some time. Maybe you guys have unpacked this at length before, but Isaiah 60. Revelation 21 26. It's pretty clear that these businesses were running. Some of them have a chance of physically lasting out of the New Earth. Revelation 4:11 The Saints are saying you are worthy our Lord and God receive glory and honor and power for you created all things and by your will they existed and were created. As we're singing that I think we're going to see some of the widgets, some of the work of our hands, purified, redeemed, but right there on the new earth, laid at the feet of Jesus as an offering to adorn the new Jerusalem.

Wiliam Norvell: Amen Wow.

Jordan Raynor: That should inspire us.

Wiliam Norvell: I agree.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, absolutely.

Henry Kaestner: Okay, so this last one is kind of a part of Lightning Round. Kind of not. But it is the way we end every one of our podcast. William teed up for us.

Wiliam Norvell: Yeah. At the end, what we love to do is we've talked about a little bit here, it's to bring it back to God's word and just understand. It's amazing to find out how he continues to live and breathe this word into our guest life and how that transcends into our listeners lives. So we love to invite you to share piece of God's word that may be coming alive to you right now. Could be something this morning, could be something in the season of life, could be something you've been carrying with you as long as you've known Jesus. I just want to invite you to share something from his scripture that is on your mind today.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot, this is easy. I think about a lot of the last six months or so. And I think it's because so much of my work in this [...], it puts a great example. The Creator in you is all about doing a work for God, right? He's called us to this mission. He's called us to create for His glory. But man, I can find myself and I'm willing to bet a lot of our listeners can find themselves getting so obsessed with doing our work for God that we neglect to do it with Him and really aware of His presence. Basking in his grace and his gospel at a personal level is that's what I'm seeing in the word, right? I was reading Revelation 21 the other day, the next children's book, spoiler alert. That's where we're going in before God gives us the task of ruling and reigning the new heavens of the new earth with him forever, it says, he's just with us. We're with God. He's coming to dwell with us. That's what he wants, primarily. God doesn't need us. He wants us. We're children. And that's been rocking my world a little bit and re learning that truth and applying it to my life in my work each day.

Henry Kaestner: I like that. I like that a lot. Reigning with God that makes us all reigners.

Jordan Raynor: There you go.

Henry Kaestner: More so than Jordan Raynor and that.

Good one.

Yeah. In a podcast edition, which we're talking about being a dad, we'll close it off with a dad joke. Jordan It is awesome being with you. Grateful for the work you do. Looking forward to having you back on with the next book and just, just riffing with you again. God bless you, brother.

Jordan Raynor: It has been a joy being with you guys. Thank you.