Pastor Kyle Kaigler grew up in Dallas, TX, and attended Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, OK. After working in the Employee Benefits business for five years, he made the switch to full-time ministry with Lake Highlands Young Life. In August 2015, Kyle, his wife and several other families started the Plano Campus where he served as Campus Pastor. Kyle has moved to CityBridge Church in Plano, TX, where he is continuing his pastoral ministry. We’re excited to talk with Pastor Kyle on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur Podcast to discuss some practical ways we all can live out our faith on a daily basis. 

Episode Transcript

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We are live here with William. William, you're sick because your co-working space is too cold.

William Norvell: Yeah. You like a double jacket today?

Henry Kaestner: I like the double jacket.

William Norvell: I like to call it as little touch of coming back to Easter cold. I'm pretty sure my kids, you know, our church opened back up fully and it was awesome for Easter. It was so much fun. We had eight or 900 people in there the first time we put our kids in the program, and we're pretty sure that's where the cold came from. But that's all right, because resurrection colds are the best colds. So it was well worth the sacrifice. It was so glorious to be back together with people out here on Easter Sunday.

Henry Kaestner: Ladies and gentlemen, there are people who glass half empty and people who glass half full. You now know which one William is, Rusty?

Rusty Rueff: Sometimes. Glass over full.

Henry Kaestner: Yes. Yeah. It's a wonder if that's what we all aspire to be. Rusty in the middle of a road trip. And it's been great to follow you.You know, you almost got blown off the road in Nebraska and now you're in Louisville, Kentucky, and you actually brought your whole like Mike Kit with you, which is super motivating.

Rusty Rueff: Oh, it's fun. I mean, you got to bring your rig with you. You know, that's all part of it.

Henry Kaestner: Apparently.

Rusty Rueff: And what fun we've had here in Louisville for the last two weeks. It's a southern town, got a little country in it, but still got urban. It's a seminary town. You know, you've got multiple seminaries here. [...] is a little further south. You got the Southern Baptist Seminary and then a couple of others like I don't know what they are, but it's very different than in the Bay Area. So little local coffee shop I've been going to every morning called Quills and you know, it's fun. You go in and you see the Bible open on the tables and small groups meeting in these coffee shops. And it's been very encouraging to me these last couple of weeks. You just look around with all the craziness that's going on in the world and yet, you know, you can see God's word being, you know, ingested and cared about by a lot of young hipsters, you know, and if I could say that, I can use that word. So it's been really a lot of fun. And hey, you know what? Let me just tell everybody, you can come to Louisville for two weeks and have an enormous amount of fun and you don't have to walk into a distillery. There's plenty of distilleries if you want to go into them, but you don't have to come to Louisville just for distilleries, which is what most people think that of the Kentucky Derby.

Henry Kaestner: Well, a quick geographic food coming on where you are right now and then where you're headed. Most people do not know that Louisville is one of the nation's centers for sushi.

Rusty Rueff: No, it isn't. Is it really?

Henry Kaestner: It is. It is. It is. And anybody listening to this right now from Louisville will tell you that. And it's because it's a FedEx or a UPS hub with like all these direct to Tokyo. And so they've got the freshest sushi from all around the world, comes through Louisville. And that would be one of the last places on earth that I would have expected. And yet Louisville has got world class sushi, our first company, Chapel of Brokers. We never talk about chapel of brokers on this show is an energy driven company through the grace of God, end up being the number one ranked electricity derivative broker in the country. We sold it to a company in Louisville, and as they wined and dined us, I found out that to be the case. And then you go to Columbus now.

Rusty Rueff: I am on Columbus.

Henry Kaestner: Columbus home. Do you know it's in Columbus that you have to do?

Rusty Rueff: No.

Henry Kaestner: Well, our listners in Columbus will tell you. Yeah, of course it does. Oh, Jeni's ice cream, you know. And Sean Penn, that had a controversial call at the end of the game and they went ahead and he locked himself in the basement for a week. And then he finally emerged to talk to the press and they're like, Where have you been for last week? He's like, In my basement watching old movies, eating Jeni's ice cream.

Rusty Rueff: That's too funny. That's too funny. Well, then I'll. I'll stop in and get some Jeni's ice cream on the way through Columbus.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, have some for me and William and our listeners. Okay, so we have Kyle Kaigler. Kyle, I'm probably mispronouncing your name.

Kyle Kaigler: You're doing great.

Henry Kaestner: Okay, thank you. We're here to talk about something really, really important. And this is something that I want to make sure is never lost with our listeners. And I want to see if I can t this up and then Kyle I want you to riff on this just a little bit as the spirit leads you. And then I'm going to ask you about who you are and where you come from. Typically, we ask our guest who they are and where they come from, and yet I want to keep the momentum building from the way. Hopefully I'll set this up and to the extent I will not do it well, you're going to bail me out. And it's as follows If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you understand that we have a ministry to spark a decentralized movement around 12 marks, the 12 marks of a Faith Driven Entrepreneur, which are called to create, identity in Christ, faithful versus willful, joyfully generous. I'm not going to go through a whole list there are on the website. You probably already know what they are, and yet we can never lose sight of the marks of a disciple as well. Spending time in God's Word is incredibly important. We do not have a mark that says a Faith Driven Entrepreneur is somebody who spends time in God's Word, and yet that and prayer need to permeate every one of the marks and to make sure that we just really nail that point home. We've got an expert with us today to help us to understand how to take scripture and make it accessible and applicable. He's developed a system that's worked well at his church with a lot of business leaders, and Kyle just pick it up. Tell us about how you've been able to do that and how business leaders have latched on to what you're doing.

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah, well, look, God's word, I think has a place for all of us in all kinds of different areas. And so we you know, one of the things we drive home here as being part of a disciple is just part of that is spending time in God's word. And so you guys probably know this, but one of the thing that motivates me is there are several places in the Scripture that say, hey, really, only one thing really matters. David says that in Psalm 27 four says one thing. I've asked the Lord that I will seek, that I'll dwell in the House of the Lord all the days of my life, to dwell in the House of the Lord, to behold His beauty and to meditate in His temple. But He says one thing. And then Luke 10:38 through 42, Mary and Martha are listening to Jesus and specifically Mary sitting at his feet, and it says she's listening. And he says, really only one thing is necessary. And then Matthew 6:31 through 33 is just talks about seeking first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be added on to you. So Jesus tells us, David tells us just that. There's really one thing that matters is really listening to the Lord. And you do that through having just not only just knowledge of Scripture, but an understanding of Scripture and the ability to listen to the Lord. So we try to communicate that all the time. And then the Scripture is the is the tool that helps us to listen to God really well. And so we've got I think what we're talking about today is years ago I came up with this thing just called a planned biblical response, and it was never necessarily meant to be for other people. It was just for me is when I get into certain situations, any situation, I want to have a planned biblical response. So if I'm insecure, if I'm moving towards sinful patterns or whatever that is, I want to have five, ten, whatever passages kind of really handy. If I don't have a memorized, I want to have them handy so I can go to those and just remind myself of what's truth and not go down a path that's going to be harmful to me or harmful to other people. So that's caught on a little bit around here is I've taught it and talked about it and it's just been a helpful tool for some people.

Henry Kaestner: Give us an example. And we're going to spend a lot more time talking about the obstacles that we might all face, the disciplines of not spending that time in Scripture and then some of the other tools that Rusty uses, William uses, I use. We hear back from our audience. But I'm really interested in this methodology you have because again, I know that you've used it with business leaders. Can you give us an example of one such application that you've heard back from a business owner or an entrepreneur in your congregation who says, You know what, Kyle, I'm so grateful for what you've done. Let me give an example. Two days ago, I was on the phone and I pull this out and this is how it inspired me.

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah, I think the one that's probably used the most often is just I've got a sheet, it's a planned biblical response to conflict or hard conversations. Right? And so that happens in the church world, that happens in the business world. And so a lot of the guys on our elder team and key leaders in our church, we talk about that a lot. And that will be passages like James 1:19 that I'll just read ahead of one of those meetings or one of our business guys will read ahead of those meetings, which is be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry. And so I know I'm there's times when I'm going into meetings and I'm a little amped up because I think I'm right. I mean, it's not rocket science. It's not complicated. It's just taking the time to just kind of go back through that and say, okay, I'm going into this meeting. We're all on the same page here. What are the four or five passages of Scripture that I need to have in my head right before I run into that meeting? And it's amazing what happens to your mind and to your heart, and it just reminds you that God's in charge you're not, and that you want him to kind of lead the meeting. So that's probably the one that is used, I would say, the most often by guys in our church and women in our church. They're business leaders and for all of our shepherds and pastors as well.

Rusty Rueff: You know, I love this philosophy of integration between, you know, business leaders and pastors. And I know that's in your heart. And we talk about it a lot on the podcast about how entrepreneurs sometimes feel like, well, my pastor doesn't understand me. And a pastor says to us, Well, I don't really understand entrepreneurs, and they talk across each other. Sometimes in your career, you've now started two churches, right? So you know a lot about launching startups. Can you talk to us a little bit about how, you know, faith driven entrepreneurs and pastors are maybe more alike than they are different?

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah, I mean, I was in the business world for a few years before I jumped into the ministry world as well. And I would say my time in the business world was incredibly significant to moving into a role as a pastor. It was just so helpful. But I would say, you know, we started this campus, we started three other campuses kind of over the course of the last 20 years. And I would just say the challenges are really similar. And what I mean by that is you're really taking something that doesn't have a lot of vision, a lot of shape, a lot of team unity, culture, especially. And I think you're trying to in all of those spaces, you're trying to shape all of that, lead all of that without being, you know, a command and control type leader, especially when you talk about the church, is because our job as shepherds is to serve our people. And so, you know, how do you do that versus some time in the business world? It can be command and control. And yet I think great business leaders are guys who think about shepherding and serving the people that work for them, their customers and all that. So there's a lot of similarities and especially, I would say just in the culture building. I don't care if it's a sports team, I don't care if it's a business, I don't care if it's a church. What culture do you want to set in your organization that's going to set you up in the church's case to make disciples, but in a business context, to really love and care and serve your customers or your employees or whoever else you're interacting with.

Rusty Rueff: And if someone really wants to be, you know, effective as a entrepreneur or a leader inside of their church, I know you have some thoughts on that. As an entrepreneur, you know, I'm going 180 miles an hour during the week, right? I'm doing everything I can, but I still want to serve my church with the skills and the experience that I have. Can you give us some tips on how best to do that?

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah, well, I think we've got several men and women in our church that have done a really good job of they're entrepreneurs. They kind of own their own small businesses or even medium businesses, but they know their target is a kingdom mindset. And so I've always told guys who have asked me about, you know, guys that have developed a career and they're thinking about changing is you want to go to the place. That gives you an amazing amount of flexibility. And so it's which the gifts that entrepreneurs have right if they choose to use it. Some entrepreneurs are so driven they can't make the time to do that, but they have the time. And so that flexibility we've got, like I said, a bunch of folks in our church that are entrepreneurs and they've developed their career and they're making choices to spend what we call their flex time serving the church. Our elders, we've got three of our elders that are those guys. We spend a ton of time together and they're they're still working. They're still raising a family, but they chose some of that flex time to really spend a lot of time serving the church, leading ministry, all that. And it's something we try to communicate all throughout our body. You say as entrepreneur is your job is not just to fill the bank account, your job is to be able to provide well for your family, you know, help fund the kingdom, all that. But also your time, your gifts, your energy is really important to the advancement of our church and the advancement of God's kingdom. More importantly.

William Norvell: Hi Kyle, I'm curious on that comment, because that flies a little bit in the face of kind of the Instagram entrepreneurship, which is, you know, sleep on the couch and you're dedicated to what God's called you to do. And you have to give everything you have to make it successful. I'm curious, how do you unpack that or how have you seen people unpack that? Because I think that'll be odd for some listeners just in what they've been told, quote unquote, entrepreneurship is right, which is know, like everything else, go to the side. Your business is what God's called you to. And I'm sure there's you know, there's a scale in here somewhere. Right. But I'm curious how you would navigate that scale.

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah, I think I would start back just at, you know, the Matthew six thing, just that you seek the Kingdom of God first and then all these things are added unto you. And so it's just that prioritization, I think, is if I'm if I'm discipling guys who are either business owners or have a desire to be entrepreneurs, I'm like, Hey, don't forget the kingdom is first, right? It's your priority. Now, how can you make sure you still disciple your family? How can you make sure that you're doing those priorities and then everything else you've got? Give that to your work and to your job. But I'm not saying we all do it well, William. I'm just saying that I think that's what God calls us to and the people that have done that. Well, I can't tell you the kingdom impact that they're having and again, keeping a long term mindset when they stand before the Lord one day and, you know, they give an account, they're going to be able to say, hey, a lot of my time, energy, finances, all of that was given for kingdom stuff and not just for making this business a success or filling my bank account or whatever that is. And so that's a discipleship thing we talk about around here. Is that helpful?

William Norvell: It is. It is. I like I said, I think it's a little counterintuitive, which the gospel should be right .

Kyle Kaigler: The temptation for me, too, is to even as a pastor, right, my job's to shepherd and lead and teach and all that. But just getting it to do list done and building the church and I can get captured in that just as fast as anybody else can.

William Norvell: Yeah, I've heard it said before, there's no greater job in the world for a workaholic than to be a pastor. Because you can always justify it, right? It's like, well, for the Lord, I have to go do this. I have to go do that.

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah, it's funny, as we hire employees, we tell people they they've got to be great at setting boundaries because you don't know a lot of times you don't know what's fun and what's work. And those things tend to kind of get confusing and all of a sudden you look up and you've worked 80 hours and you've compromised your own walk with the Lord, your family and all of that. So very tempting and our our the church world as well as the business world.

William Norvell: So so we're going to dig into plan biblical responses a little bit deeper here in just a second. The question I want to ask before is because we've had pastors on I just always love asking this question, what do you see as the role of entrepreneurship? What do you what do you see? God, when you read the Scripture, what do you see as what God says that entrepreneurs are called to? You know, where do they fit in the Kingdom of God, from your perspective? Just kind of love for you to just talk about that for a minute.

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, again, I feel like I'm repeating myself, but the first role for all of us just to be and make disciples, that's what the scripture tells us. Right? So within that context, then I would say there's a role for entrepreneurs to fund the kingdom. I think that's part of a role. I think another part of that is most entrepreneurs, as they develop their business, become somebody that whether it's younger guys or peers, actually seek out. Right? Like they are saying, oh, this guy owns his own business and man, he's been successful. And those folks maybe even coming to them for the wrong reasons. But their role is entrepreneurs is to take those guys and say, okay, let me help you remember the first priority being a disciple and now let me teach you life skills. Let me teach you business skills. Let me pass that down to a whole nother generation of people that can do the same thing, that give their life away for the kingdom. And that involves where does it fit? It fits under that discipleship. Process, but it's so significant to what happens in the kingdom.

Henry Kaestner: Okay. So one of the things that comes to mind as you're talking through this and as we get ready to talk through some of these planned biblical responses, is something I pray often for my family and particularly my children that they would have the full armor of God believing that ours is a it's a battle and we're getting out there. And we'd see lots of examples in Scripture about that. We know it's a battle against rulers and principalities and it's a spiritual battle. And so we're given the full armor of God or we've got a whole complement, sword of spirit shied of faith, breastplate of righteousness, helmets of salvation, belt of truth and feet to come fitted with the readiness of the Gospel. It strikes me that the one that is the offensive weapon, the sword of the Spirit, is the Word of God. And so there's this sense of maybe battle. You know, the Ukraine situation is going on. Maybe I'm thinking more about military stuff, typically do. But there's this concept that, okay, so I've got this sword of the spirit, it's a sword, it's in its scabbard. And I have these rounds that I can go ahead, I can pull out. And so I see something coming. The enemy's launched it from my left flank and now I've got a bunch of things and I miss that a lot. And that is the Bible is the thing that I can use to go into battle with. Let's go through some of these battlefield situations, if you'll permit me to continue this military analogy. Okay, I'll get a couple up on my desk. I've got, for instance, remembering your role. But let's go to the suffering one first planned biblical response to suffering. I feel like I'm suffering. This is really, really difficult and through a major trial. Okay, I know. Wait a second. All right. Full armor of God, sword of the spirit. Word is his word. Okay. What do I do? Walk us through that at my desk. I've got six of these. I think actually you've got probably nine or ten of them. But walk us through what that looks like and how you apply it. Real time. We're in battle.

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah. Part of it is just the intentionality that needs to happen ahead of time. I mean, in order to use this appropriately, you've got to create these things, right, these planned biblical responses. But so yeah. So I'll get in a situation where there may be a teaching, there may be a statement I make that's either going to frustrate people in our body or it may frustrate governments around us or whatever that is. And I think there's a chance that I may suffer for the sake of the gospel and righteousness. And so what pops up sometimes in my heart is a fear, right? What's going to happen? And I start pre living situations that can happen. And if I don't jump into God's word, that's going to spiral me into a really bad place or I'm going to lose sleep, I'm going to be anxious, all that kind of stuff. So I try to grab that plan, biblical response to suffering, and just be reminded about what is true, right? And so there's I mean, I'm looking at the one that I think I sent you guys, the plain biblical response to suffering. There's six verses, there are six passages there. And I will take that out and I'll literally read Psalm 119:71. My suffering was good for me, for it taught me to pay attention to your decrees. And so I'm like, okay, if I'm going to suffer, I know there are some good things that are going to come out of that. John 16:33 Right. When Jesus said, Hey, there is trouble in this world, take heart, right? For I have overcome the world. And so again, it's just I think the enemy attacks us in our mind and then it moves to our heart. And if I can catch it early enough, I don't spiral down to where I'm hurting myself or I'm hurting other people. And so that's how I use that in that particular instance. And it's even before I think the suffering may happen, I just want to have the right mindset going into that.

Rusty Rueff: So can I put one in front of you? Sure. I've got an entrepreneur right now with a co-founder. They're at each other's throats. And so conflict. He's living day in, day out. Where should I drive him for a plan? Biblical response for conflict.

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah. I mean, there's you know, I'm trying to think of specific passages. I think the stuff that just talks about, you know, be anxious for nothing but in everything. I think that's Philippians four nine through 11, right? Be anxious for nothing but of everything with prayer and supplication. Let your request be made to God. So I know I have to take care of myself. We have a term around our church here that when I'm in conflict with somebody, one of the things I do is I have to draw a circle around myself and work on everything in that before I start blaming or pointing fingers or whatever that is. So how do I how do I take the log out of my own eye right before I start pointing fingers at somebody else? And so that's what I've got. I don't have it in front of me, but that's some of the passages I go to when I'm in the middle of conflict. So this is all about preparing my heart. But I will give you guys one of the things that we do just, I would say is a strategy and it's been amazingly helpful like we were in this has been several years ago, key leaders in our church were at each other's throats. And our job as elders is to protect the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace. And Ephesians chapter four, it talks about. And so I literally in that conflict, these are all godly people, but they're super mad. Scale of 1 to 10, we're at a nine on this thing. And I just walked into that meeting. I said, okay, everybody pull out your Bibles and read where you would go in the Scripture if conflict is happening. And I mean what happened in the next 10 minutes when we all pulled out God's word, we started reading God's word. We did all of that. I mean, you hate to say it was right doctrine, spiritual magic, right? I mean, just in terms of what happened in the room and all of a sudden, 10 minutes later, we've read about taking the log out of your own eye. We've read about be quick to listen, slow to speak, and all of a sudden that conversation goes really different than if we hadn't done that 10 minutes before I've even done it. I had a couple of business guys that were kind of they had become partners and they were at each other's throat. And we just sat down and it was awkward because they were probably immature believers, but I just said, Hey, let's just remind ourselves how we want to do this. And what happens in the room is pretty amazing. And what happens in people's hearts is pretty amazing.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. What I love about this, too, is a follow up on Henry's analogy of the battlefield. You know, this is like having an entire quiver of arrows. That's what God's word is, right? And you just reach around and you can pull, you know, from God's word for the specific instance that you're in. But you can't do that if you're not in God's word. Right. You know, and I think what I also love about your planned responses is, is that you've written about so that we can grab them, right. That they're there in front of us. And even a pastor. I mean, you know, you said I don't have it right in front of me, but you know where to go get it.

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah, that's right. And I would just say that I'm almost 60. And so the memory is going. Right, right, right, right, right. And so at various times I've had all these passages memorized, right? So there's times when I work on the suffering or I work on the anxiety thing or whatever that is, but those don't stay in my head, right? I would love to have the time and energy and memory to have. I've probably got 45 of these right plan biblical responses. I would love to have all those passages memorized. I just don't. And so to your point, Rusty, I just I know exactly where they live on a folder, on my desktop, on my computer, and then I keep a folder in my backpack that just says the biggies. And so I kind of take the top ten that I use all the time. And I put those in there in case I don't have access to my computer. I can just pull that folder out that's got the biggies in it so I can just remind myself, you know, okay, going into this meeting, going into we do some city engagement stuff around here and sometimes you're going into a place that you're not comfortable with. And I just remind myself that I'm supposed to go and make disciples, right? And that go makes it's really important. And so, Lord, give me some courage.

Rusty Rueff: And I know somewhere right now one of our listeners is sitting here going, Okay, if I could just put this on the blockchain and make it immutable. I know, I know I can do this. This is going to be really cool. And somebody should I'm going to turn it over to the other guys. But I got one other question for you is, you know, you said seek ye first the kingdom of God and I have always heard that not only as seek ye first the most important thing, but I also hear it as seek ye first, the first thing you should do each day. And I'm just curious about your rhythm of being in God's word and just share that with us because, you know, we get so busy, we've got a million things going on and sometimes we miss that first thing. And then we wonder why later in the day we don't have our arrow, you know, we have our quiver, but not our arrow. And we get, you know. Kind of lost. So, you know, sharing your rhythm with us, I think, would be really helpful.

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah. And I fight as a pastor the same temptations. I think business guys fight right. Is I'm tempted at times to get up and check my text messages first, in my emails first. And in all candor, there are days when I do that right, because something's on my brain. But I will tell you, my best days are the days that I get up and I start with whatever the Psalms of the day is. So I try to read through Psalms a psalm every day to kind of start my day. And then I have a little bit different rhythm maybe than then some. Psalm I open my journal first before I really dove into God's word and just say, Speak, Lord, your servant is listening. Or I will say, Hey, God, I want to hear from you today. I'm going to live moment by moment with you today. Would you speak to me? And so before I ever really open my Bible to study and read extensively, I'm just kind of like, Okay, God, I want you to remind me that you're in charge and I'm not. My job today is to listen and to respond to your spirit. Right. And that all happens before I start into the studying of God's word, the memorizing of God's word, all that just because it establishes a listening posture for me instead of a check the box which I can really easily do. Hey, I read five chapters today and so I'm good kind of a thing. And so that listening first is really helpful to what I do, and then when I'm really doing well, did not happen certainly every day, but I close my day with time. And what's interesting is when I close my day with the Lord listening, how was my day? You know, Lord and I don't know if this will be helpful or not, but I asked myself basically four questions kind of at the end of the day, or if I take a Sabbath time and it's where did I get hooked, cold, scared or proud today. And so I try to finish my day with that. So hooked is Where did my heart get addicted? What did I get hooked to today? Often for me it's food, which is a problem for me. There are times when I'll watch way too much ESPN and I'm great with us watching ESPN. Right? But I can sit there for 2 hours and it's not a great use of my time. And so my heart got hooked around, you know, sports on TV as much cold. Where did my heart get cold today? Where did I blow by somebody that I really needed to stop and have a conversation with? Right. Was I cold hearted towards somebody and just kind of blew them up? So hooked, cold, scared is where did I pull back from a conversation about the gospel or the hard conversation with one of our folks at our church or with a staff person? That's a correcting conversation. And I chickened out. Where do I get scared? And then where did I get proud? Which is basically where did I take credit for something God did? And so I try to do that every single day. You know, Billy Graham said years ago after somebody asked him, hey, millions of people have come to Christ through your ministry. How do you stay humble? And he just said, I practice confession and repentance every day. And so that's a big part of my discipline, kind of either in the evening or in the morning, if I missed it the night before, just to kind of confess at what we call around here the seed level before things can kind of get moving and growing and become a pattern that becomes, you know, potentially a sin habit that you have a tough time breaking. And so I would say the listening piece certainly study in God's word, but then also the reflection piece, the examining piece may be something that's not a lot of people do do it, but I don't hear about it a lot.

Henry Kaestner: Man. I love a good framework. That was awesome.

William Norvell: That a lot of our listeners do to entrepreneurs, usually looking for, you know, how do we actually solve this problem? Not these theories on how to solve it.

Kyle Kaigler: Just say let's let's be clear, I stole it from Tim Keller so where I got that.

William Norvell: So that's a good spot, you know, so one of these I want it. This sounds so simple. It reminds me of I'm going to go quick sidebar reminds me of you know, Jesus is always the answer right to all of our problems. Right. And I remember I was in a I think if ever told this story before, I was in a business school class one time and our arguably our most famous professor was teaching the class. And so he's a little intimidating. And, you know, one of those moments where he's asked the same question, three or four or five times and just you can tell nobody's got to answer it, just everyone's scared to death. It's one of those where he's kind of trapped us all. Everyone's scared to death. We're not going to get it right. And there's about a two minute pause. And finally, one guy in the class raise his hands and he goes, Jesus, and the whole class just lost it. He's like, That was always the right answer in Sunday school. I don't know. I'm just used to when there's a giant pause, Jesus is the answer. And I feel like some part of this, you know, it's like, well, of course, scriptures the answer. Like, of course, knowing the word of God is, is the answer right? Is it really that simple? I mean, are we just biblically illiterate and we're not soaking ourselves in God's word? And these conversations would just be easier if we just knew the Bible better. Is it? Is it that simple or is there something else? And it's great if it's that simple. I'm just curious. Like we say, scripture matters. Every question would agree with that. But is the answer we're not actually living like that.

Kyle Kaigler: Well, I would say what we're not doing is using it right. I would say we know it. There's a lot of knowledge that we have. But are we taking it into situations, whether we quote it in a meeting or not? Is that really something that's driving us like this planned biblical response? It's got some legs around our church and with some other folks. I'm shocked, right, that folks are like and I'm like, I write six verses on a sheet of paper. Right. It's like I said, it's not rocket science, it's not complicated. But I do think because it's intentional on the front end and because it's built around topics that we find ourselves in, often it just helps us use it. To your point where I'm right, it just takes what we know and helps us to use it. And so I would say that most of your audience are probably maybe guys that do love God's Word and all that, but are they using that in how they give vision to their organizations, or are they using it and how they handle conflict, or are they using it and just how they treat customers or deal with non-compete agreements and, you know, all that kind of stuff that those guys run into. But yeah, I think it is that simple. I think it's just taking it from here to the heart and into the hands, right, to use it as a skill in our roles.

William Norvell: I love that. I love that. And you know, to dig one layer deeper is that, as you said, you know, you put six verses on a sheet of paper, right? Is it is it accessibility? Is it lack of courage? Is it lack of faith that like, wow, I know that, but but is it really going to work? Am I going to look foolish? Like, what is that? What do you think is contributing to that chasm from the head to the heart, from the knowledge to the use?

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah. I think at the end of the day, we really don't believe that it's going to be helpful in this particular situation. And like I said, like I've been a pastor a long time and I was in that meeting six years ago and we just started reading Scripture and I shouldn't have been shocked but I was completely shocked by what happened. Right. In terms of the anger and all the angst that was in the room just went out of the room and everybody calmed down and said, Oh, yeah, we're on the same page. Right? Unity of the spirit and the bond of peace really matters. And that's not what's in your mind when you jump into that room. Okay? You're about well, I want my way and I'm right. And how can I get what I want out of this instead of, oh, yeah, this is about Christ being honored here. So yes, it's just about using it and believing that God's word really is applicable and does apply to our lives and every circumstance.

Henry Kaestner: I think that this is going to be one of those episodes that a lot of our listeners will forward on to their pastors, because it shows the relationship between a pastor and an entrepreneur. And since now you have that type of audience of pastors, how might you encourage pastors that are listening to this about how they might best lead, love, serve, get to know entrepreneurs and what they're going through?

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah, well, I would just say I don't know that you would call it selfish or not, but I think it's probably the best asset they have in their church. Right. I think if you can convince guys that love the Lord, but they're spending all their time on their business if you can help. Like I met with a business guy today for lunch and we're going through some changes here on our staff. And this guy's an organizational management guru, right? And as he was talking about what he was doing, I was sitting there thinking, man, he's going to be so helpful for me as I think through some of the org changes that we're kind of talking about and how that's going to play out. It's going to cascade down to our staff and our body. And I just think entrepreneurs are. So when I say driven, I don't mean unhealthily driven, I just mean there's a there's a real healthy ambition, right? The only thing the Scriptures condemns is a selfish ambition. Right? I don't think the Scripture condemns ambition. Right. I think that's a really good thing. It talks about diligence all the time. But if we can take those guys and give them a vision for the kingdom and for taking ground and hey, come help us as we're thinking about how we reach our community, how we reach our world. We want to take your gifts and skills that you have and we want to use them. I just think so many entrepreneurs are underserved in the church, right? The church it did not take advantage of gifts and passions. You know, we use time, talent and treasure. Right? It's kind of our language around here, a lot of places. And we're getting better at it, but we don't do it. Great is just taking advantage of those guys business skills, their education, their experience in bringing it. A cross to help us make disciples.

Henry Kaestner: So I have a pet theory, and it's something that I'm wondering if you're going to you might endorse this practice or not. My sense, my hope, because I have this deep desire that entrepreneurs will understand how to serve the local church better. It's one of our marks, one of the things that I set out at the beginning. One of the marks is to do that well. And I want them to develop relationships with the pastors, is that if pastors can go and spend time walking the factory floors and are invited by the entrepreneur to spend time at the business so they can now, instead of it just being a conceptual thing of here's what's going on, they can actually have met the people the guy is talking about or just understanding kind of the product lines in a factory lines. Does this kind of meeting of the two worlds? Because it feels a lot from me. I'm not a pastor. It may be very clear, but I'm an entrepreneur. It always feels like I'm going to the pastor and never really feel like pastors are coming to me and therefore I'm never sure the pastor completely gets me. Do you ever do that?

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah. I like, you know, I sit on the board for an IT company for 17 years. Right. Just because I from my five or six years in the business world, I just love business and I love looking at the numbers and all that. And so I sat on the board of an I.T company. We went through a sell and all that kind of stuff and I just loved it. Right? And so I try to know what's going on. I can't do that for every entrepreneur in our church, but the guys that are in key leadership roles, I really do try to know what's going on in their business. One of my closest friends here is an elder and we've been friends for 40 years and so I know a lot about his business and he'll bring me in and we'll jump on the whiteboard and do that. So so the answer is yes. Obviously, pastors have to make decisions about how they prioritize their time and where they spend it and all that. But yes, I think as much as we can be with our people in their environment, I'm an old, young life guy. So going to the high school and hanging out with kids and you know, I'm 35 years old, hanging out with 18 year olds, which is weird, right? You know, but.

Henry Kaestner: How old are you hanging out with 18 year olds? Because I'm hanging out. I've got an 18 year old son you hang out with all the time.

Kyle Kaigler: I would go to high school. and it was all high school kids and they were like, you know, don't you have any friends your own age and you know, all that kind of stuff? But just going to, that's what Jesus did go and make disciples, right? Go into some area. It's an uncomfortable place for a Jew to be. Right. And so, yes, I think as much as we can, pastors should be engaged in the life and business of their body.

Henry Kaestner: Okay. We don't birth a lot of things on this podcast or we haven't recently, but I want to try one out and I want your reactions. Okay. How about a bring your pastor to work day?

Kyle Kaigler: I'm all in.

Henry Kaestner: All right, good, good. All right, we get Kyle set up. This sound like we can do that. Justin, let's. Let's see if we can get that out through the proper channels. I'm grateful for you Kyle. Thank you, William. Bring us home.

William Norvell: It might be a lot less exciting in the remote work world these days for a lot of people, but, you know, it's still fun you know. Um, well, Kyle is. Is Henry's kind of push over to me. That means we're we're ready for a close, unfortunately. And what we love to do.

Henry Kaestner: Unless Rusty got something else. I do not want to shut Rusty down either.

William Norvell: Well, that's fair.

Rusty Rueff: I'm all good. I'm all good. Kyle, you've been fantastic. And there's a number of nuggets that I think I'm going to take away, especially, you know, just about those questions. Those questions asking ourselves, are we hooked? Cold, scared, proud. I mean, I just love, love, love that. So thank you.

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah, absolutely. My pleasure. Great to be with you guys.

William Norvell: Yeah. Reminds me a lot of saying of St Francis is prayer of examine, right? Just sort of having that moment every day to remember and to reflect and and of course, now in the days of screens and things, you know, every science in the world would say, hey, shuts your screens off an hour before, and if you are nervous about tomorrow, write something down. Right, write something down. Get it out of your head so that you can sleep in a better way. And that's a great framework to do that. But so where we end our day or where we end our episodes is trying to draw just back to what we've been talking about to, the Word of God and say, Hey, you know, what has God been teaching you lately? What may be coming alive to you in a way that, you know, maybe it hasn't before? Could be something you read this morning, could be something you've been meditating on for a few months. But just want to invite you to share a piece of God's word that you're seeing differently these days.

Kyle Kaigler: Yeah, I was just yesterday in the day was in Matthew 28, kind of just as we're in post resurrection, you know, post Easter, just kind of what was happening with the disciples and the ladies that saw Jesus. And just that as Jesus had risen, He told the ladies, the angels had said, Hey, go meet me in Galilee. Right? And so but what was going on behind the scenes is that the Roman authorities were trying to hush what had just happened. Right. There's the passage that talks about how we're going to pay these two soldiers, you know, a big sum of money in order to deny that this happened and that Jesus's disciples came and stole the body. Right. And so even in the midst of exactly what had happened at the resurrection, which is the greatest moment right in the New Testament. And for our lives, there's still opposition. Right. And so that's just what I was meditating on today, is that even we're coming off of Easter, things are amazing. The enemy's still at work to try and shut down the advancement and the power of the Gospel. And so for me, it was just a great reminder that, you know, there's all kinds of things you guys know, leading companies, leading churches that can be discouraging and, you know, people leaving your church for reasons that you can't control and all that kind of stuff. And it's just a great reminder that even after the resurrection, you know, there's opposition to the gospel. And just to expect it, it's part of it we live in. To go back to the military illustration we're using today, we live in a war and that's just going to make it so. It was super encouraging for me today just to say I got to keep going to Galilee, right, to meet Jesus. You know, no matter what the opposition is, I'm going to keep going. So that was it from this morning.

Henry Kaestner: It's a very good one. Very good one. So, Rusty, we spent a lot of time talking about being in scripture and this sword of the spirit what is what's the daily practice you have? And we know, of course, that you've got a daily blog that's awesome and can be an encouragement and a great supplement to that. By the way, in your answer, plug that please. But what do you do every day to be in God's work?

Rusty Rueff: Well, I'm forced to be in God's word because I write purposed working blog Monday through Friday, and it forces me to be there, which is a great thing, because, you know, those who teach learn twice sometimes, you know. So that's been always great for me in the even years I read the Bible all the way through and I annotate it for those things that might show up in purpose, working from God's word so that I have those going forward. And this year I'm actually reading God's word all the way through using Eugene Peterson's The Message. And it speaks in such a different way to the everyday life that we have. I keep my NLT close at hand to go back and reference, but yeah, that's what I do.

Henry Kaestner: Good.

William Norvell: William Yeah. I, you know, it's funny we mention this topic because we were just some of this in my Bible study, which is now reading a book which I think happens a lot. So there's scripture in there. But, you know, weekly right now my rhythm is actually reading this book, which is not necessarily the word of God, right? And I think that happens often. So I don't know. So I'd say I'm reading that, which is a great book on apologetics. So there's scripture in there, right? My daily practice, actually, the biggest thing I've been focused on and you know, spiritual disciplines go up down is actually from a podcast guest a while back. The one thing I haven't missed in a while is 15 minutes of listening prayer, so I've been really trying to hone that discipline. So I try to do that every morning, put on some music and some soaking music and just try to hear from God. And of course, that's always better paired with Scripture, of course, but that's been my main focus lately. So this may be a giant cop out and I need to be convicted and or try something.

Henry Kaestner: And you're being convicted. No doubt about it.

William Norvell: I'll take that. I appreciate that.

Henry Kaestner: That. Listing prayer is great. I love the Nicky Gumble Bible one year rap. I've also enjoyed reading through the Bible multiple times now in a group chat that I've done with seven friends for about five years, and it's awesome guys and gals, men and women that are listening to this. I want to encourage you to spend time with God's word every day it is the sword of spirit that is ready and available and accessible to all of us. Kyle, it was great having you on the program. Grateful for you and your ministry. Grateful for you, our audience.