Randy Alcorn is the founder and director of Eternal Perspective Ministries (EPM), a nonprofit organization dedicated to teaching biblical truth and drawing attention to the needy and how to help them. Randy is also a New York Times bestselling author. He has written over 55 books including Courageous... Heaven… and The Treasure Principle. His books have been translated into over 70 languages and have sold over 11 million copies. Prior to launching EPM, Randy co-pastored for fourteen years Good Shepherd Community Church in Oregon. He is a well recognized voice in the faith driven investing community and today is sharing more about the treasure principle and what it means to invest in eternity.

Episode Transcript

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Randy Alcorn: In fact, I'm commending you to store up treasures for yourself, that even sounds selfish, but obviously Jesus isn't quite us to be selfish, but it is in our own self-interest. But the bottom line of what he's saying is you can't take it with you. And that's why it's foolish to store up your treasures on Earth because either they're going to leave you or you're going to leave them. It's not a permanent relationship, right? You can't take it with you, but you can send it on ahead. And that's what he's saying by giving it away now, investing it in God's kingdom. We can invest in eternity and make a permanent and lasting difference in people's lives. That's what's so transformative about the message.

William Norvell: Welcome back. This is a special episode. This is a crossover episode, Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Faith Driven Investor, because honestly, we just feel that our guest today, Randy Alcorn, has a message that our whole audience should hear. It's a message of generosity as a message of how to discern that with God, and we just think that our entire tribe needs to learn about this needs to try to discern what that means for themselves and how that could potentially impact their investing and or their business and or their lives and or their conversation with their neighbor tonight, whatever that may be. We are excited to bring this to you and sing out this special episode we are going to bring. Justin Forman, the president of faith driven movements out from behind the scenes because as we were talking before, he just had an amazing story of how Randy's message has impacted him and his family. And I want to turn it over to him to introduce Randy through his story of how picking up this book at an airport and a plane flight changed the way he thought about generosity and how it's transcended into his whole family. So just over to you now.

Justin Forman: Thanks, William. You know, it's fun, especially we've been talking a lot about books and just the power of story. A lot of that recently, as we've been talking about the Faith Driven Entrepreneur book and just releasing that. But I'm just reminded, you know, on a special day like today, just the power that a book can have, how catalytic those moments can be. And you know, I can't remember where I was flying from, but I can remember that by the time that I had gotten off a flight and landed in Dallas, then a book and really kind of changed the way that I view things. And there's many things I've come to love about this book. But one of those was the brevity of it. It was a package, and it was, I think, almost like designed with that in mind that you can hit people with a concept so short, so sweet, so simple, so profound that you can live out. And it was a friend that had given me treasure principal years ago, and I picked that up and it just forever viewed as a young 20 30 something they just like how life is a gift and how we have to steward it. And what does it look like to kind of start out with the end in mind? And it just, you know, it's one of those things that books have the power to unlock some of the things that once you see it, you can't unsee it and it changes your perspective of things. And, you know, fast forward years later. You know, Randy and I have had the chance to be able to work together through a couple of different things. We did a video project kind of redoing the video project and retelling kind of a newer version of the story of treasure principal. And it was fun. Unbeknownst to me, last Christmas, my brother in law had been so deeply impacted by the book and made an impact on him that he surprised our 12 year old son, Tristan with that for Christmas. And so here we were in front of family, and we just kind of a fun moment to see a book that is so transformed me and transformed our family to be given that to my son. And that was a note, an challenge that really said, Man, if you can spend the time marinate on this book, go through it, finish it. You know, I'd love to take you out to dinner and talk more about it and to see that challenge that was issue there for my son to think about something that really transcends, you know, generations. There are books that do that, and this is certainly one of those. And that's why. And to your point, William, that we just wanted this to be a message that reaches everybody. Entrepreneur and investor, like we have been entrusted with things to steward. And gosh, we just want to make sure that we do that faithfully. So with that man, it's a treat and it's a gift to have Randy with us. So Randy, welcome to the podcast.

Randy Alcorn: Thanks. It's just so great to be with you guys. And thanks for that story, Justin. That was just great to hear about the treasure principal, its impact on your life and your family. That that's why you write stuff. That's why I write stuff in the prayer that it's going to change people's lives and impact them for eternity and impacting them in such a way that they're impacting others. So that really only when we're with the Lord are we going to hear all these great stories for people touched by the Holy Spirit through the things that we have done, not just the big things, but the small things.

Justin Forman: And that's great. Hey, well, it really did it for us. You know, one of the things we love to do with our guests before we get maybe into the book and some of the topics and applications they're given the fly flyover. Tell us a little bit about your story. Who are you, where you come from and how God's led you to where you are today?

Randy Alcorn: Yeah. I live in Gresham, Oregon, a suburb of Portland. Portland, Oregon, is the world capital of weirdness. Yeah, but we love it. It's a mission field, and we're here to make a difference, and we know that it's got purpose for it. I grew up right in this area and an unbelieving home. My dad was a tavern owner and had an amusement machine business that included the old pinball machines and taverns, and also he had cigaret machines and he had pool tables and shuffle boards and all of those kinds of things. So my house was actually very popular for kids because my dad would rotate his. Scenes from the different taverns and then all the access ones were in our house and our basement, so that was fun growing up having access to all those things, but it wasn't fun and growing up in an unbelieving home, there just were, you know, obviously a lack of perspective. God was not talked about, thought about mentioned. But when I was in high school, I went to a youth group at a church and got involved, heard the gospel for the first time when I was 15 years old, a sophomore in high school, I came to faith in Christ and God radically changed my life and had the joy of living my mom to Christ a couple of years later and baptizing her. My desire at first know when I found out about missionaries and what they did, and I read Torture for Christ by Richard Worm brand and God smuggler by brother Andrew and Corey Tin booms the hiding place. All those things then that tells you the era it was back in in the seventies. I'm sixty seven years old now, so I guess that means I've known the Lord for fifty two years, but he grabbed hold of me in ways I cannot even begin to describe. I really came to the Lord. Reading Scripture, you know, when I jumped in and started reading Genesis, you know, people talk about how they get to Leviticus and get confused. Well, I didn't have to get to Leviticus. None of it really made sense to me at first. But then when I skip forward to the gospels and are reading about Jesus, it had the ring of truth. God miraculously transformed my life and never been the same since we went to Bible College Seminary thought I was going to become a missionary at one point, but we decided to help plan a church and then became pastor of that church for 14 years and moved on from that to start a ministry called Internal Perspective Ministries. And that's what I've been doing ever since.

Darryl Heald: Thanks, Randi, for sharing. It's great to be here with you. Usually, you and I only cross paths during conferences.

Randy Alcorn: Right, exactly. It's been a long time.

Darryl Heald: I also was deeply impacted when my father in law gave me a book at Christmas called Money, Possessions and Eternity, and I had no intention of reading it because I thought, what? What a lousy. Yes, how about how about a new driver or shotgun or something else like that?

Randy Alcorn: And could we could we use that endorsement on the back cover?

Darryl Heald: What a

Randy Alcorn: lousy gift.

Darryl Heald: I mean, I was not very grateful. So I mean, I needed this book really bad. And you know, it was just in God's providence. So I was you young commercial real estate guy there in Atlanta. And I can't tell you why I found the book and picked up the book. And that one's a lot longer than the treasure principal, right? But it was, you know, we talked about a journey of generosity, and that's what set me. I mean, you were my teacher and mentor in that, you know, it just it changed my life. And I don't know if you remember when David Wills and I were trying to get the rights to take that as an excerpt. And then, you know, you finally came out with the treasure principle and so many stories on that. But can you give us a little context? Is that book in a lot of ways? I think there was a lot of ways kind of, you know, a huge kind of breakout book and a brainy book for you where I mean, you know, all over the world now, as you know, just the generosity messenger and the insight you give in there. Can you give us a little perspective of like how broad that message is gone? Number of books and things like that?

Randy Alcorn: Yeah, it is really been phenomenal and totally surprising. I think when the publisher asked me to write it, it was going to be the second book in a series of really small books, and they were kind of going to market them together. Well, the first book in the series was called The Prayer of Jabez. And so they really weren't connected with each other, and there were good things about that book and perhaps things I didn't feel is good about. But they decided to kind of separate what was called the life change series out into another one so that my book would be the lead book of that, largely because the project was a world onto its own. And, you know, eventually it had all the offshoots like the prayer of Jabez for left handed waffle makers and, you know, whatever. I mean, it was everything. And so here I was with this book called The Treasure Principal. But it turned out great because even though nobody would have predicted it, it's like, Oh, wow, what book can we come out with that will sell a million copies? It's actually sold over two million copies now. But how can we really capture people? Oh, let's get them a book that tells them they should be giving away their money so people have to. And money on a book that tells you to give away your money, that's just not going to go anywhere. So at the time, giving books and there were very, very few of them simply were not selling. They weren't getting into people's hearts and lives. I mean, individually, they were sure, you know, biography of ERG Latino and other great things like that. And then people would talk about giving along the way. But this was a book that focused on giving, and it was remarkable. And to this day, every week, I think I just read one. Yesterday we get these emails, these posts, these people using extracts from treasure principal people talking about how treasure principle changed their lives. People saying, by God's grace, after reading this book, we liquidated our unnecessary assets and we had a lot that were unnecessary. I mean, we didn't. This isn't a vow poverty thing. I mean, most people still own possessions and live in houses, and probably most people are middle class people, but they're just divesting themselves of treasures on Earth in order to invest treasures in heaven. And that's what Jesus said. Don't store treasures on Earth stored for of treasures in heaven. And how do you do that? Well, you do that through giving, and it's been a joy giving message. That's what I just love. I mean, not duty driven nearly as much as just joy and happiness driven. Jesus said, You know, it is more happy making it to give than to receive. That word is translated blessed. But what it means is it is more happy giving to give than to receive.

William Norvell: Oh, that's so good. And I mean, I want to give you a chance. I think you might have just done it, but you know, in a sentence or two, right? You know, what is the treasure principle? Give us a couple of seconds on just kind of what is the key thesis?

Randy Alcorn: I think what Jesus was saying when he said, Don't starve your child's treasures on Earth. We're moth and dust. Corrupt thieves can steal. But store officials, churches in heaven where he treasures their heart will be. Also, what he was saying is when it comes to treasures. They're not bad. In fact, they're good and it's OK to store up treasures for yourself. In fact, I'm commending you to store up treasures for yourself. That even sounds selfish. But obviously, Jesus isn't calling us to be selfish, but it is in our own self-interest. But the bottom line of what he's saying is you can't take it with you. And that's why it's foolish to stir up your treasures on Earth. Because either they're going to leave you or you're going to leave them. It's not a permanent relationship, right? With our treasures on Earth. You can't take it with you, but you can send it on ahead. And that's what he's saying by giving it away now, investing it in God's kingdom. And it's not just our material treasures and our money, but it's true of our time. It's true of our gifting, you know, our talents that God has given us. We can invest those in eternity and make a permanent and lasting difference in people's lives. That's what's so transformative about the message.

William Norvell: Well, that is that is and I'm reading the book too, and it changed a lot. We did a group study on it and just changed a lot. And as you, as you say, some of the quotes as I've almost forgotten that that's where I got that quote, right? It's like, Oh yeah, that's where I got that understanding. I totally forgot that it was so good. I was wondering, would you mind walk it through? How have you seen this play out in your own life? So you've mentioned a couple of different categories right time, talent, treasure. Get a little practical with us. You know, when when this message was given to you by God, how did this transform the way you've built eternal perspective ministries, how you spend your time, maybe how you pray? I don't even know because you're the expert. I'm not. I'm just curious from a practical view, how does your own life look different after you receive this message from God?

Randy Alcorn: Well, it's interesting because I wrote several books and then I felt really Lord of the Lord, too, when I was still Pastor Young Pastor to do a sermon series related to money and possessions, not just the subject of giving, but including that. And so I thought, I don't know how many weeks this is going to be. It's going to be a four week series, a six week series, an eight week series. Well, so I started doing my research and then it was just so compelling. And I'm looking at all these passages and I've seen all these things that God says in his word about money and possessions and the connection to the spiritual life. Even where Jesus says, Where your treasure is there, your heart will be also. And I began to see in my own life and God had certainly led me into giving. I was sending a lot of money overseas, giving to my church, doing ministry related things. So giving was a big part of my life. But it was not so much. Based on scripture telling me to give, it was just the overflow of the Christian life. But when I'm looking at all these pastors related to money and possessions, stewardship, God's ownership, I was stunned and I realized that I could preach two years worth of messages and just scratch the surface. And so the idea of the sermon series was God's word overflows. I mean, God is so interested in this subject and expects us to be interested in it. And there have been different estimates. But if you take all of the stewardship parables, easily 15 percent of everything Jesus had to say related directly to money and possessions more than he said about heaven and hell. Not that the subjects more important than heaven and hell, of course, were more consequential, but it is really important. Or he wouldn't invest all that time in it. So that's what really caused me to turn that into a book, which was money possessions of eternity and that launched me into this area of giving. But to your question, what really was transformative in terms of our actual life was that it wasn't long after the book came out. The original book, it's been revised and updated sense, but came out in 1989 and I was still a pastor. But what happened later that year was I felt less of the law to get involved in peaceful, nonviolent civil disobedience at abortion clinics to save the lives of children just simply standing there blocking arms, but speaking up for those who could not speak for themselves. Well, as I said, I mean, I live here in Oregon and there were parts of the country, including Dallas and Wichita and Atlanta and places in the Bible Belt or Midwest. That's its own kind of Bible belt where you could do that, and it could be fairly respectable in Portland, Oregon. It was not. The level of hostility was off the charts. So what happened was as a result of that, I had to resign as a pastor because they were coming to garnish my wages because of civil suits against me and others. And so one of those ended up being for eight point two million dollars, the largest civil suit in history, successful for a peaceful, nonviolent protest. And the result of that was I had to leave the church and I could only make minimum wage because the abortion clinics would garnish my wages, anything above minimum wage. So our lifestyle changed now. Fortunately, God had taught us already. We're giving a large percentage of my book royalties away. I was making a good wage is a pastor, but all of a sudden I was making minimum wage. And so we looked at things and we irrevocably gave away the royalties from all my books. So now I'm actually looking at the pages of money, possessions and eternity, which I finish writing about one year before I could just make minimum wage and talking about God owns it all. And depending on God for everything. And that's exactly what we were doing. That's when my life really changed, which was ironically, after writing that book.

Darryl Heald: Well, that's Randy. Thanks. That's such a such a powerful story. And you know, one of the things that I think had such an impact on me is we think about the money and possessions part, and that's really tangible. But this whole and eternity, right? The context of that. And of course, you know, you've had these famous books on heaven as well. But could you talk a little bit more just in terms of like where, you know, I think a lot of people listening to this right where we're real practical, tactical, strategic, we understand the financial realm, right? We're scaling businesses, we're investing and all. But let's talk about the eternity piece here, particularly in light of like from a relational standpoint, a family standpoint, things like that. What does that begin to look like in your own life?

Randy Alcorn: Yeah, know. I think of my family and the impact on my family, and I've told a story before about how when my daughters came out and we thought they should witness one time during the civil disobedience days and their dad, you know, getting arrested for speaking up for those who could not speak for themselves and the financial implications it had for a family. And I remember somebody saying to me, So do you realize the impact what you're doing is having on your kids, how they're going to be deprived, you having to make minimum wage and then having to see their dad go to jail? And I said, well, thank you for thinking of my kids, because, no, I really wasn't thinking of them at all. No, but I said, you know, I hope that it will change them forever. That the material things now cannot be a huge part of our lives. God will continue to provide A. good and beautiful and wonderful ways, and our kids were not deprived. But the attitudes and actions I saw in my kids when they couldn't have everything else that a lot of their friends could have. They couldn't usually go the places and do the things others were doing. Though God provided us some wonderful trips and vacations and different mission trips around the world, different things that we did together, it was wonderful. But when my daughter Angela was in high school, she and I were out on a bike ride. She's a junior in high school and we went down this new development and we saw a house that was the most beautiful house we'd ever seen in the area where we lived. And at the time, we looked at it and it was huge. It had this beautiful view of Mt. Hood. It was just landscaped beautifully, but it was still for sale. I'm in my yard and the for sale sign was $500000. Now I get it. Some people live in Southern California in different parts of the country where, you know, that's not an impressive figure. Where I live, especially back in the 90s when this happened, there were no houses around that were selling for half a million dollars. I mean, you couldn't find one. At least I'd never seen one. And so this is like the most beautiful house we've ever seen. And Angie was just great. Dad is just so gorgeous. And then all of a sudden it dawned on me, you know, and I said to her, And do you, do you know that if instead of giving away the royalties just from the last year, the royalties from my books, if we had kept them, we could have paid cash for this house? No kidding. And she's got this big smile on her face. Well, she knew what we did with the money. She knew all the things. We talked to our kids about, which I, by the way, would really recommend. Sometimes parents are doing giving and they're not talking to their kids and they're not involving their kids. And I'd say, get your kids involved, help them even make decisions about, you know, where it goes. And all of that gives them ownership so that they have vested interests in eternity. But anyway, continuing with Angela, so I said that to her, and she's just now kidding. And then I said, What age do you wish we would have kept the royalties? And we still could. I mean, we could get them back. We'd given them away, yes. But by that time, we could have taken them back. But but you wish we would and would buy this house or a house like that. And she looks at me and she laughs, genuinely. She just laughs and she said, Dad, he's just a house. And I'm telling you. Tears came to my eyes because I thought people were worried about my daughters being deprived. Well, what they got instead of. They're never going to get a huge inheritance, but they are. I hope they have received a heritage. And so that's where it gets really personal for me.

William Norvell: Well, that's good. That's good. All right. I just keep wrestling. I've read the book and my wrestle, is this sometimes Randy when I go, OK, I get it. You know, there's other things in the Bible where you go, OK, okay. Like, I'm not going to debate the theological points with you, right? Like this is clear, right? This is not debatable from that perspective, but how do our listeners get our head around treasure and have it? Right. And of course, that's better. Like, obviously, that's better, right? But two part question, right? So how do I one get my head around it, maybe theologically? And then two, you know, are there practical ways to maybe get around my own stubbornness? And you know, I've heard you talk about a financial finish line, right? Are there practical ways say, Hey, you know what? You are greedy and stubborn. And so here's some practical tips to get around that.

Randy Alcorn: Well, I think one way to think about it is a lot of people think wrongly about giving where they think, OK, all right. I know it's a good thing because they know people are needy here. I know a lot of things need to be accomplished for God's kingdom in the world, so I'll make the sacrifice and do the giving. And I realize God has given me a lot and so I can. Yeah, I can give some of the weight, but it's like a begrudging. Even people who talk about tithing as if tithing were the ultimate like tithing is the training wheels of giving. It's like the wading pool or, you know, is the end of the swimming pool where you get in. But then when you learn how to really swim, you go into the deeper water. Well, that's how it is with tithing. So to me, the people are held back and they think that tithing is the most radical kind of giving that a person could do. Well, of course, that's just that's just 10 percent. And what God has provided for us is just way, way beyond that. But I think the mistake that people sometimes make is thinking of their giving as divesting. Just I'm giving it away and I'll never see anything from it. But really, it's investing and especially when you make wise giving choices and it's truly making a difference in people's lives for eternity. And so when Jesus said, you're storing up treasures for yourself in heaven and Luke, 12, there's a parallel passage where he says that you sell your possessions, give to the poor, and then God will give you moneybags in heaven. Or sometimes it's translated money belts in heaven. So in other words, it's the transfer of wealth to another location. You could say it's a different kind of wealth, but it's using actual material wealth as the basis for creating wealth and have it now. We don't know exactly what that wealth will look like. We know that often it has to do with eternal rewards of ruling in God's Kingdom of leadership in God's Kingdom, a lot of people are thinking, Well, I don't want to rule, I just want to go around and have fun or whatever. Well, it's not ruling like in this era of under the fall of corrupt government or whatever. It's going to be magnificent hearts filled with will serve at hearts of people serving the Lord in his kingdom. You've been faithful a little. I will put you over much. I'll put you over five cities, I'll put you over 10 cities. I've written a big book called Heaven and several other books on that subject. And I think part of what's wrong is when we think of Jesus saying, Sorry, I've churches in heaven. When we think of heaven, we don't have a biblical view of heaven. The biblical view of heaven is life forever on a resurrected earth, living and resurrected bodies with resurrected fellow believers with the resurrected Jesus in a new earth of resurrected culture and resurrected nature and resurrected animals. And it's it's, you know, don't have time to develop all that and give the scriptural basis. But I've written whole books about it, and I'm telling you once you see heaven in that light, then when you think about investing and eternal rewards and investing in eternity and experiencing forever, the result of your giving way of your life and your time and your resources in this life, you think of that being something you will enjoy and others will enjoy forever, no matter what form that takes. That is an amazing, paradigm shifting thing. And ironically, it isn't just that we OK. Yeah, we have to make all these sacrifices in this life. And you know, that's that's the pitch, you know, but at least it'll pay off in eternity. No, it pays off in this life also, because then we have the joy of seeing where that money goes. I've had people say to me, or your books have sold over 11 million copies, it's almost 12 million now. Do you realize what you could do if you had kept the royalties from those books? You realize the kind of house you live in, the kind of cars you could drive, the kinds of trips you could go on. And God has allowed us to go on some magnificent trips anyway, from speaking and missions, related trips and just all. All these kinds of things. But, you know, my response is always, well, yeah, there's a lot we could have done with that money, but nothing that would have brought us as much joy as what we did with it in terms of giving them and what we are still doing with it in terms of giving it away. That is what is transformative to experience by the grace of God, not only change in other people's lives as a result of our giving, but in our lives. And let me just add this my my wife has stage four cancer in the lymph nodes. It's been a battle for four years. We had some test results recently that weren't good. We pray for her healing each and every day, complete healing. God so far has not chosen to answer that. No, he may still and will praise him if he did, but will also praise him if he doesn't choose to do that because the ball's in his court. But I'm telling you to see my wife in the world daily and talking about heaven and looking forward to being with Jesus and trusting him fully. I believe that our lives and our hearts and our attitudes would have been very different if we had not, by God's grace, learned the secret of joyful giving decades ago.

Darryl Heald: Well, thanks, Randy, that's that's super powerful, and we're sorry that you know, that circumstances as it is and just it's really amazing just to hear, though, the grace surrounding you with you and Nancy and your family despite the difficult circumstances. But you're right, the hope of glory, right, is the driver. But so one of the things I think is really interesting. You just brought up this tension between how much do we keep, how much do we spend ahead, you know, treasure in heaven. Right. But then so a lot of people in our audience, right, are entrepreneurs, starting businesses, building businesses, investors who have capital goods given the ability to create wealth. So how do I how do I not have the begrudging attitude you're talking about? And then at once, it's the freedom to say this is how God created me and how do I begin to manage that tension or find a balance with, you know, using the worldly wealth right now to be a creator, to be a, you know, investor and things like that. So can I have the freedom to do that?

Randy Alcorn: You know, I think the answer is yes in a qualified way because I've had these conversations and heard that question, of course, many times from people, because it's a very good question. I think the one thing we need to be careful not to do, and I've seen many people who have done this, and I think you have to where they say to themselves, OK, I'm going to make a ton of money and one day I'm going to give a lot of it away. Jesus did not say Where you want your treasure to eventually be there, your heart will be also. He said, where your treasure is, where you put it now is where your heart is going to be. So a lot of the people who have good intentions with that just keep accumulating and keep accumulating, and there's no end to accumulation. There is no end. And so I think what has to be done is you have to discipline yourself to say, I am going to give generously now. I am not going to wait to give generously. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean I will give away 90 percent of my income when I'm early on starting a business. For a lot of people, that just probably wouldn't work with the starting the business thing, but I still will be very generous and depend on how much God is entrusted to me. Maybe I'll give 20 percent, maybe 40 percent, 50 percent of whatever figure it is, and it all depends on the resources God has entrusted you and how it works. And there's no biblical formula and there's no magical percentage. I would never, ever under any circumstances go less than 10 percent because I just can't imagine a New Testament believer changed by the grace of Jesus, who is unwilling to do the minimum that was required of the poorest Israelite. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. But the point is, yeah, there's freedom. But then I would say not air on the side of because it's not airing at all generous giving, but it's just like, stretch yourself with the giving and ask God to bless. And you may find that of course, you'll never know in this life because you can't do it both ways. But I think in many cases, people just for their lives into the building of this business. They lose the business. The business, you know, just falls apart or the economy changes. They take the money that they made and that they invested in things out there and the investments went sour or they became very, very wealthy. And then they lost their families because their priorities weren't right because their hearts weren't right. So if you want your heart to be in the right place where your treasure is there, your heart will be. Also, put your treasure now into God's kingdom, so your heart will be in God's kingdom. Give your treasure to Jesus. Now see your heart will be with Jesus. That doesn't mean give it all away. There are times where Jesus did say, Give it all away. OK, but isn't. Do that for all of us. But whatever it is, do enough of it. Now that your heart is going there, then maybe not only might God bless you and your business, but your heart might be in such a place that when more money comes in, then you're giving more and more. But if you're always waiting for that day to come, when you're going to become a giver that day in all likelihood will never come. And you will regret one day having really wasted your life with and your resources that were really God's all along. Because he owns it all. When you could have invested in turn to be

William Norvell: so good and so here you tell that story. I guess I've heard a lot of people tell the story. You know, I've never heard someone say yes to the answer of Do I wish I have kept it? I've heard a lot of generous people. I don't think I've ever heard one person say, You know what? Actually, yes, I wish we had not given that money away. And right, that's staggering. It just hit me as you were talking. I've never heard someone say the other answer to that. And for someone who's wrestling with that, for my wife and I just went through what a Darrell's program's journey of generosity and we were wrestling with what that should look like in our life. Fred is just such a moment to remember. I've I've never met someone who said we gave away too much. We made a mistake.

Randy Alcorn: Yeah. And I don't think at the Jesuit seat of Christ, it's just hard for me to imagine. Well, you know, I'm going to reward you for this and that, and I commend you for this and that, and he is going to do that. But this I have against you, as you said to the Rev.. Churches and Rev.. I have this against you, but this I have against you. You gave away too much to feed hungry children and get clean water to people and get the Bible translated into their heart language and to help persecuted Christians all over the world and to reach people with the gospel in the far corners of the world. You really shouldn't have done that. I mean, I'm trying to imagine at the generosity of Christ him ever saying that, yes, somebody could say, Well, there's probably a case where a guy made his family go hungry so that he could give all that money away. Well, God knows if there is such a person. And there probably is somewhere. But I would say that's a rare situation, and I've had people say to me, we got to take care of our kids and living in a culture where even middle class is exorbitantly wealthy by global standards and historic standards, and people are saying, Well, we got to take care of our kids. Will you provide for your kids giving them food to eat and clothes to wear and a place to live versus just overindulging your kids constantly so they have the best of everything, which will not ultimately be character building for them?

William Norvell: It's so good. I realize you're one of the generous giving videos with Tim Keller to thinking about our heart boss. You're right. He joked. You know, if you don't know Tim as a pastor in New York and says, Yeah, I've been a pastor for 35 or 40 years, right? Said, You know, I've I've never had one congregant come to me and say, You know what? I struggle with the sin of greed. I think I'm too greedy. There's just something about our heart posture that doesn't let us go there. We just don't assume we are right.

Randy Alcorn: Exactly. And I think that's the nature of me. We talk about blind spots like, What are your blind spots? Well, I don't know, because they're blind spots, right? And that I think with greed, materialism, greed is idolatry. We're told it's putting something before God. It's worshiping the material, it's worshiping money and we do it and we do it a lot. And first, Timothy, six and other passages as well just really speak against, you know, the love of money and its impact on our lives and telling us to be rich in good deeds to give it away, laying up for ourselves treasures as a firm foundation for the coming age. The coming age is life forever on the new Earth. We got to change that perspective and when we do and we can't just do it, you know you can't. How do you make yourself less greedy? How do you make yourself generous? Well, this is only one way to give it away. There's only one way to break the back of materialism that's giving a lot away because when we give it away, we prove to ourselves that we don't have to have it to live on. And we proved to ourselves, it's not our God. And that's what you do. So you don't wait until you feel like giving in to give you give. But the more you give, the more joy you find in it. And pretty soon, giving is so wrapped up in your life you don't even think of it as a sacrifice. Other people look on, they say, Wow, you're kidding. You're giving that all away. And often they don't know. In my case, they don't know what we give from our own personal income, from what the ministry pays us. But they know all the royalties are given away. But I don't even think of it. I mean, I only think of it as privilege and joy and. And the same thing with my family that our kids are not going around hanging their heads because they're not going inherit all this money or these great houses and lands or whatever. And this is where the transformation comes in. You only overcome greed through giving more and more. If you keep it, you'll just stay greedy. In fact, when I think of the word miser, what English word is derivative of it is connected with it miserable. The miser is miserable. Think of Scrooge. Do you want to be like Scrooge? I mean, who wants to be very wealthy but utterly miserable until the transformation takes place? And Charles Dickens, when he writes that I go back and I reread that story once in a while, a Christmas Carol. And what happens to Ebony's Your Scrooge in that strange story with the three ghosts of Christmas? And all of that is the equivalent of a conversion story. It is like coming to Jesus, and everything looks different now, and life is full of joy as you give away what you always used to keep and made you miserable.

William Norvell: So again, coming up on the Christmas season, I'm going to watch that with the new light now and the new vision. So as we come to a close, had one final question. I don't know if we got exactly to it. Could you explain the concept of a financial finish line and how you've developed that and how our audience could think about that specific concept?

Randy Alcorn: Yeah, some people become highly specific with the financial finish line idea, and others take it more as not a clear line, but something that they generally strive for. There's obviously advantages to clarity where you say, All right, this is all I need. All I could use. Everything beyond that goes to God when I reach a certain amount. And obviously I'm not going to say an amount is going to differ with what people believe about it or I reach a certain amount. It's like in my investment portfolio. Do I need to keep pouring money into it so that there will just be way more than I could ever possibly use? Or do I need to give it away now and not leave it to my children after I die and hope they give it away because they may make more income than I do? I hope they do, but give it away now because God didn't entrusted to my children, he entrusted it to me. So the finish line is don't feel like you're supposed to keep most of what comes in. If God is given you a lot of money, why has he entrusted it and given is the wrong word entrusted to your care? Well, it's so you can make a difference for eternity. God will make us, it says in second Corinthians nine, he'll make us rich in every way so that, OK, what's he going to say now so that we can live in the nicest house and we can have multiple houses and the beach in the mountains and and everywhere? And so that we can go on the most exorbitant vacations and and have the most the greatest cars and multiple cars and all of that. OK. It doesn't say that you will be made rich in every way so that you may be generous on every occasion. And Corinthians eight nine, I would just say, read and reread those two chapters and ask God to change your heart. And you see how grace it's all about the grace of God manifested in people's lives and showing through giving so that grace is the lightning. Grace is the lightning that comes from heaven, that comes from God. Giving is the thunder. That is our response to the lightning. You're gonna have the lightning for the thunder to be there. And if you are not generously thunderously giving, it's probably a sign that you're not experiencing the lightning of God's grace in your life the way you should and could. But the solution? Give more and ask God to give you a cheerful heart as you give. And he'll answer that prayer. And when you see what's being done with the giving that God has privileged you to do, you will get more pleasure and more excitement from that than you could get from any material possessions ever.

William Norvell: Unfortunately, we have to come. To an end, gosh, I feels like we could go on forever. We may have to beg you to come back and go on forever some time. But where we love to end is we love to invite our guests to share a little bit of where God's word is working on them right now. And so that could be this morning. It could be a season in your life. It could be something that God's brought new to you as you've been reflecting on a during a season. But just love to see how God's word transcends our guest and our listeners and how it's it's always alive and working.

Randy Alcorn: Well, I'll tell you right now that is both a hard and an easy question to answer. It's easy to know what I should talk about because unless something changes and God intervenes and we still pray that he will. My wife is dying, and so we face that every day and still doing the treatments haven't g iven up there. But we've said, you know, if it gets to a certain point and quality of life is diminishing, we're going to take you off the chemo. And you know, all of that because we're not hanging on desperately to life in this world. It's better to die and be with Christ is greater by far to be with him. And my wife knows that and I know that. But obviously we want her to continue in this life. But I'll tell you, when you look at that in terms of eternity, it moves your heart and it just the priorities becomes so, so clear. It's kind of like what we're saying before. It's like people on their deathbed don't say, you know, I wish I had spent more time at the office and less time with my kids. I wish I had spent less time with my wife. No, the regrets or the other way they wish they'd spend more time with their wife, more time with our kids, that maybe they hadn't traveled around the world quite as much without their family. Or maybe they wouldn't have spent so much time making money that you know, now they don't have the relationships that they could have had if they had invested less in their business and more in their family or done their business in such a way that it didn't have to sacrifice the family. OK, but for us, we are just thinking God, that by his grace, years ago he did. Some things in our life were far from perfect. And I don't mean there's no such thing as greed or materialism in our lives. You know, we live in a culture of it. It's the air we breathe. But to the degree that we have been freed from that, that our hearts have been in heaven and for decades and cautions three says, set your eyes on things above where Jesus is seated at the right hand of God. By God's grace, we have been able to do that and we have no regrets and Nancy's talked about that not having regrets. So right now, I would say ironically, when we started our ministry now just over 30 years ago, I guess thirty one years ago, the verses that I chose that would be our theme for the ministry were in Second Corinthians four, where it says we look not at the things which are seen, but the things which are unseen to the things that are seen are temporary. But the things that are unseen are eternal. And that's why we named it eternal perspective ministries. But it's preceded by a verse that helps so much with understanding the meaning these light and momentary afflictions. Now think of Paul's life, who's talking and the afflictions that he went through are unbelievable. You'll look at the list of those in Second Corinthians. It's unbelievable. But these light and momentary afflictions are achieving in us and eternal weight of glory that far outweighs them all. Therefore, we look not at the things which are seen, but the things which are unseen to things which are unseen are eternal. OK, well, it's not just we'll have to put up with these afflictions, but then they'll be gone forever because we'll be in heaven will live forever on the new Earth. That's true. But what it's seen is these afflictions are achieving in us. God is doing a powerful work in our lives through our suffering. God has done the most powerful work I have ever seen in my wife's life and my life through the suffering of these last four years. He is achieving eternal purposes. When I see her in the word. Every morning, I see her journaling, she reads to me from her journal. I turn some of the things that she's written in her journal and ask her if we could use them as blogs on our EPM website. She wrote one recently called My Cancer is God's Servant, based on a passage that says all things are God's servants. He uses all things, and we know that all things will work together for good to them. That love God to them are called according to his purpose. And so not only in general, is that what we have been learning, but it has confirmed how grateful we are that God let us open our eyes years ago to the joy of giving. And we'll sit and we'll hear reports from different parts of the world and book that I hand out to somebody somewhere. And then somebody that had their car break down last week and took women or children to their house sent him some books and hearing the stories of lives being changed through the divine appointments God gives us and through the wealth he's entrusted to us. I can say this we are not living with regrets. I mean, of course you always think should have done this better. Should've done that better. It's not the mirage of perfection, but it's thank you Lord, for helping us to discover these things and live these things out together as husband and wife for decades, even though it was costly and could no longer be a pastor, could no longer make a normal wage for, well, for 20 years. But God provided and God is gracious and kind and sovereign, and we trust him 100 percent.