In addition to being one of the co-authors of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur book, Chip Ingram is one of those people that we can't seem to have on this podcast enough. 
If you've followed along for a while, you've no doubt heard him before, but today, he's going to join us and share why he's excited about the Faith Driven Entrepreneur book AND what his latest book, titled Yes! You Really Can Change has to say for every entrepreneur out there.

Episode Transcript

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Chip Ingram: For an entrepreneur, especially when you can get out of I don't have to prove anything and I don't have to impress anyone except I'm going by faith, do what God shows me. Is that a challenge? Yes, but it is awesome and liberating.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast, we have one of our favorites, maybe our favorite guest, at least if you determine by frequency on the show. So you know that we value Chip as a friend, as a cocreator, as a pastor, as a leader, and just been a great encouragement to others who spent time with us on the podcast and on our conferences. He is a very widely distributed radio host and author, and we have him now in his beautiful studios in downtown San Jose. Chip, welcome back.

Chip Ingram: Henry, it is great to see you. And it's always a thrill to rub shoulders with fellow entrepreneurs and the people that honestly change the world. And it's challenging. And I'm just excited to get to spend some time with you and the team.

Henry Kaestner: Well, thank you and thank you all. So here's an opportunity. I've never done this before. This is something that should give us a chance to do more frequently than I. And you'll know why here in a second, because we're going to talk about his upcoming book. But Chip and I, together with JD Greer, have come out with a book, are coming out with a book called The Faith Driven Entrepreneur. And Chip Ingram may not know this yet, but Lecrae is writing our forward, which is exciting and cool. And for our listeners who haven't ordered their copy, why should they why should a Faith Driven Entrepreneur care about what you have to say? What I have to say, what J.D. has to say about being a Faith Driven Entrepreneur, isn't it just as simple as just kind of like, you know, I should go to church and I should probably pray and then I've got a business to run. I need to get out there and just kind of execute and and, you know, Lord willing, I'll be profitable and I'll be able to give money to everybody's ministry. Why would you consider reading a book on the topic?

Chip Ingram: Well, because I think what you just stated is probably how a lot of people think. And I don't think that is even remotely what God wants or thinks. The biggest takeaway from this book is I've read your chapters, Mine and Jades is real integration of being a man or woman of God and being a cutting edge successful entrepreneur without compromise is possible. It's positive and it's powerful and honest. Entrepreneurs know that integrating your faith authentically all the time from the inside out and I don't mean just in work, but relates to personal life, family, even beyond integrity. That's a challenge. And I think you really wrestle those things to the ground and give people some real help in that.

Henry Kaestner: Well, thank you, really. Of course, the operating pronoun there is we and so you've got chapters on stewardship, faithful and willful, and what pastors and entrepreneurs have in common. What are some takeaways that people can look forward to reading about with that?

Chip Ingram: You know, we've had lots of conversations. In fact, we had one like twenty our conversation when we did international trip together, we got there and got back. And it was very interesting.

Henry Kaestner: We did a day trip to Manila, didn't we?

Chip Ingram: Yes, we did. That will be marked as one of the unique experiences in my life to fly to Manila, be on the ground for eight hours and fly back. But I think for high energy active entrepreneurs, the challenge and this is true of pastors that have an entrepreneurial spirit as well. It's what's my part and what's God's part? I mean, we talk about you're a steward, but OK, I'm supposed to rest and trust in God and his wisdom, not strive, not be a workaholic, not feel this unbelievable pressure to make it happen. And yet I'm not to be passive. How do you do that? That's what I think we address in this book. I think in an understandable way. I think it's foggy and vague and try and entrepreneurs hit it and miss it. And we just go sort of we zoom out of balance one direction only the pendulum to zoom out of balance in the other direction. And I think this book will really help entrepreneurs in that to discern that, to realize, you know, I don't have to keep telling those around me. You know, once we get through this big launch, once we get through this, once we do this, once we do that, then things are going to change, which is the lie that we tell ourselves and those that love us. It is possible to be at rest, to have a peaceful heart, to take risk, to be very engaged in intense at times, and also to know when to say no and not feel like the world depends on me. And that's as much or more an art as it is a science. And I think you and JD speak well to that. And I gave it my best shot as well.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, it was a very good shot. I'm very grateful. It's a real treat for me. So as much as I'm semi tempted to talk more about some of the issues that we unpack there, I'm also a little uncomfortable about the self promotion. But I feel much better about talking about a book that you're coming out with that I think is really important. And it's called Yes, You Can Really Change. Talk to us about it. What's in the book? What's it about? What's the reason for writing it?

Chip Ingram: Well, it is about life change. I mean, we are made entrepreneurs know this more than anyone else. The status quo makes us crazy. I would say the status quo. I don't want to be irreverent. It makes God crazy. We were made to change. His goal is to make us more and more like his son. And so this book is it's really about how change happens. My experience after many years as a pastor rubbing shoulders with, you know, business leaders, CEOs, is there's this once the external change is like, OK, the big morals or maybe my language or, you know, I basically tell the truth in business deals. There's those internal things that often get stuck greed, lust, resentment, anger, unresolved conflict, comparing yourself with others. God has an agenda and a way to transform us from the inside out. And my experience is most Christians don't know what that looks like. Most Christians are trying very hard to be a good person and involved in some good religious activities and some spiritual disciplines. But when you peel all that away, there's some things that God longs to change and they're really stuck. They really don't know how that works.

Henry Kaestner: So when people read it and they're feeling stuck and they want to get out of being stuck, what's it take away that you want the readers to get at? And just you hope that changes in their lives afterwards? The one thing, again, just the takeaway and not in a way that shortchanges the very important of unpacking how you get there that you're able to do in the book. But give us take takeaway, please.

Chip Ingram: The fundamental takeaway is verse one of the reasons for its grasping how deeply you're loved, who you really are and who you are, and then walking in a manner that is worthy of Christ. It's spiritual maturity. It's becoming like Christ in your speech, your thoughts, your actions, your business. And here's a make a fine distinction. Not working hard to look like you have good speech, good action. You know, I wrote my journal, I'd like to say it was twenty years ago, but it was about a year and a half ago and it was one of those defining honest moments with God in a time of repentance, actually. And I remember writing, Father, I realize at times I spend more energy trying to look humble and more energy trying to look loving than I actually spend being humble and being loving. And you know, that part of our DNA, if you're an entrepreneur, it's make it happen. And if you want to make it happen, you are always tempted or most of us to make the ends justify the means. And I think what I really long for people to see is living out of the overflow of your relationship with Christ that allows you to be at peace, that brings freedom and honestly causes you to do things in ways that people shake their head and say, I didn't think you could be that kind of Christian and be successful in business. You're breaking a lot of the rules here that you really believe in this Jesus that you talk about in this kingdom agenda that he has and that his upside down values. You know what? They don't make a lot of sense to me. You know, if you're an unbeliever. That I am. I am. And that was the goal. Let your light so shine before men, right. That they could see your good deeds, that the evidence and how we actually live, how our business is run, how we treat our employees, how we respond to a crisis, what do we do when there is failure? How do we treat people who failed? The take away is doing that the way Jesus would do it if he lived inside your body. And if you're a follower of Jesus, that's the reality, Jesus lives inside your body, you're his temple. And my dream is that people would learn just how to do that progressively, not perfectly, until we get to heaven and make a huge difference for God's kingdom.

Speaker 3: Amen. I mean, when you say that I wish you had a podcast just recently on that talked about the difference between being and doing right and how so many entrepreneurs get caught up in the doing art and reminded me of I was recently studying Deuteronomy eight and you know, God talks about how he took the Israeli 30 years so that they would learn humility. And I just it struck me it's like he wasn't concerned with whether they were going to build this thing or build this tower if they were going to. He just wanted them to learn humility. And I just think it's so profound that that's how much God cares about our hearts and who we are. And I think it pairs well with something I've heard you talk about before that I want to let you have some time on is what it means to live. I think the close cousin to humility are what allows humility to happen is grace, right. And understanding God's grace. And those are just like a beautiful paradox to live together. And I'd love for you to tell us what does it mean to live from God's approval as opposed to living for his approval and specifically for an entrepreneur, Deuteronomy? I imagine there are people like know I'm supposed to be doing, doing, doing. And God's like, no, just sit and be humble and know who I am. But I want to talk about that a little bit.

Chip Ingram: Well, God is teaching them that he's their father and he's leading they're called the children of Israel and he's taking them on an agenda. And he's our father. We're taught to pray that and he's taking us on an agenda. And when we grow up in our families and in our school systems, what we learn is when you have bad behavior, you get punished. And when you have good behavior, you get rewarded. And it's really challenging after we know Christ personally to not fall back into that psychology and where we begin to think of God as sort of this ruler, this father, this judge, and in other words, man, I want to do good things because he'll love me when I'm doing good. And boy, if I ever mess up, then he doesn't want to talk to me. He doesn't care about me. He doesn't love me. And so when you live for God's approval, you are consciously or at least in my case, very unconsciously, you're living out of transaction and performance. When I'm doing well, I feel good about me. You know, I'm reading the Bible and praying. I'm treating my employees. Well, you know, the margins are up. I'm making progress. Boy, when I failed, I blew up in that meeting. I've got unresolved anger, man. I just promised my wife the last three nights I'd be home and I haven't made it to dinner a single time. And I'm uptight and in meetings and I feel like, well, I can't talk to God now. You know, I'm I'm out of his favor. And by contrast, you know, this book is about Ephesians Chapter four and how life change actually occurs. But, you know, math goes like this. If there's an officiants four, that means there's a one, two and three and one, two and three are about being loved, redeemed, about having a father, about being sealed with the spirit. And at the very end of Chapter three, before he says anything about what we're to do, Paul says, I BAM I need before the father. And he says, I'm praying now that God would grant to all believers the height and depth and length and breadth and note to love of Christ that surpasses understanding that he do supernatural work so that we could live out of. I'm already loved. I'm already accepted for an entrepreneur, especially when you can get out of. I don't have to prove anything and I don't have to impress anyone except I'm going to buy faith, do what God shows me. Is that a challenge? Yes, but it is awesome and liberating.

William Norvell: They meant a quote I heard one time. I don't know where I picked up and set up. Grace can take you places that hustling can't.

Chip Ingram: I've not heard that. I like that. It reminds me of a I think one of the greatest lines, especially for I think entrepreneurs, because we were activators and, you know, achievers and Dallas. Willard says the greatest gift you will ever give God or any other person on the earth is not what you do, but who you become. And having sort of that entrepreneurial gene on the one hand, but my focus has been on, you know, building churches and ministries, I can say something that a lot of entrepreneurs can't. I've buried a lot of people. I mean, I've done lots and lots and lots and lots of funerals after 38 years as a pastor. And I have sat with those little cheese sandwiches afterwards when you're at the home. I just did a funeral of a very close friend last Thursday. And no one ever talks about the company they built, no one ever talks about. Wow, what a cool watch they had, where they vacationed, how many homes they had, what their startup was worth, what venture capital firm got behind him. You know what awards they won. The only thing that people that really care about talk about after you're gone, when they sit around and they both laugh and tell stories and remember you is they talk about the quality of their relationship with you and the kind of person that you were. And I think that's why God so often he gives us challenging commands and they often feel restrictive. But he just so knows what will be best for us or just drive, drive, drive to produce, produce, produce, achieve, achieve, achieve. A lot of that is in this big hole in our hearts that somehow when we go public, somehow when the startup really gets launched, somehow when I get funded, somehow when I'm written up in form, somehow you just keep filling in it. Then I'm a somebody. And those of you that have already been through this somehow and have been written up in Forbes or the startup work or you own a company, I know part of the Faith Driven Entrepreneur journey is to kind of reach back and say to some younger entrepreneurs, it's a lie. Don't buy the lie. There's more to life than whatever you think the big success is. So, you know, my heart in this book is to help that average man, that average woman go on an internal journey where that gets so solidified that they can actually live out of the grace of God and not out of this pounding performance that we just default to.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, that's great. You know, to that point, you actually write that evangelical Christianity has developed a culture in which no one's really surprised. When someone prays to receive Christ, then they just continue on in the same lifestyle. Right. With minimal change. Why do we think that is? I mean, how do we get to that point? And I think you're uniquely qualified to maybe help us understand how do we challenge that trend?

Chip Ingram: Yeah, I'm really, really tempted to quote many, many Bible passages. And then I love to read philosophy and history. And I'm reading a lot about the last 100 years or so in America and in trends. But I'm going to skip all that and give you three very practical reasons. But they're kind of rooted. No. One is a marriage occurred between the American dream and the gospel, and they got so intertwined that we got confused about what the gospel is and the American dream. And so part of our desire to get the gospel to people, we want to identify with the culture. And so this idea of being a consumer, being upwardly mobile, little by little by little, not just in the extreme prosperity areas, but in good Bible teaching churches, there came to be this sense that Jesus really came to Earth to make my life successful, a great marriage, wonderful kids, upwardly mobile, great education. And when he doesn't kind of give me this great life, well, I'm pretty disappointed on him. And if he didn't, you know, do his part of the bargain, I don't know if I'm going to do mine. The second is that biblical illiteracy, once you remove the truth and then there's relative truth and then there's a pounding culture. A lot of people don't know what the Bible says. I mean, I've been to very good Bible or in the churches and had a bunch of young professionals, all in their 20s, all very bright, all at a church that you would all know, a pastor that I know really, really wonderful. And for about 12 weeks, they all sat around my table in Atlanta and my wife fed all of them. And I did a Bible study for about 12 weeks. And I mean, it wasn't three weeks. And some of them were living together, blatant morality. And literally it wasn't like there was no sense of shame. It was you think this is wrong? And we would go to the scriptures and wow, you know, I didn't know that was there. So I think that's the second part. And then I think the third, which is pretty obvious, the cultural pressures. We had a sense where in the 50s changed in the 60s, rapidly changing in 70, the 80s. But the Judeo-Christian ethic tell the truth. Some certain aspects of morality, the culture supported the gospel view of life that's completely changed. And with that, then what you find is to believe that marriage is between a man or woman, for instance, to believe that there is absolute truth. You're on the outside looking in. And so I think that cultural pressure has caused a lot of people who, you know, would consider themselves Christian, go to church a couple of times a month, intellectually at least. Believe that Jesus is God, say the right things that doesn't get transferred into how they actually live their life. But I think the difference is it's not with the cognizant awareness that my life is really off. I'm really out of line with God. I think there's a pretty strong deception that, hey, I believe in God. I'm trying to be a good person. And I go to church now and then. And I think we've redefined Christianity is, you know, be a little religious and try to be a little bit nicer person and have your morals, you know, five percent better than the next guy.

Rusty Rueff: Is that also what you because you talk about passive faith. Yeah. So is that what you're trying to say there? And I mean, there are some dangers in passive faith, right?

Chip Ingram: Oh, it's the most dangerous place in all the universe to be is deceived by definition. When you're deceived, you don't know it. The average Christian few statistics and I'll try and wrap this into a cogent thought. The average committed believer goes to church one point six times a month is in the Bible less than two times a week. And then if you can imagine, even regularly, one to two hours, a couple of times a month to strengthen your faith and maybe reading the Bible once a week, maybe even getting together once a month and talking about spiritual things. Imagine the other one hundred and sixty eight hours of every week divided by all the bombardment of culture, movies, Netflix, social media. And it's an avalanche of untruth in many cases that literally is crushing people's soul. But when I feel like when I look around and say, you know, the people that I know are Christians, you know, they go once, maybe twice a month and I go to the mountains once a week. This you got to be with the kids in the traveling team. You know, we've made lots of ways where we look around. And the new standard is how is everyone else doing instead of what does God say? And if you're not in the scriptures, you don't know what God says. And there's this movement. I don't mean this critically. I mean this with compassion. In Bible teaching many evangelical churches, there's a compromising of some very clear biblical moral standards and Christian institutions that are sort of affirming, you know what, I'm not sure Jesus was all that serious about this. You know, no sex before marriage. And, you know, and so what happens is the teaching even gets compromised. And so we have a generation of people who are in a pew. All the research says about eight out of ten people who would claim to be followers of Jesus. Their life is marginally or no different than their unbelieving counterparts. And it's two sides. It's scary because of the consequences. But I want to push the other side. It's so sad because you're missing out on so much. I mean, when God says do not be conformed any longer, like obedient children instead first Peter one, he says, but live a holy life because he's holy. You're called to be holy be transformed by the renewing of your mind. The intent and the heart's desire was that people would experience the good, acceptable and perfect will of God wants us to have great relationships. He wants us to be at peace. And passive faith doesn't deliver that.

William Norvell: All right. Yep. I'm going to I'm going to try to let you have some time to speak to this level of doers. So we've got you know, our audience is entrepreneurs. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say, no matter what you say, when people hear, you know, you need to be holier. And when people hear those statistics, they're going to say, OK, I know how to do this. I need to get the Bible seven days a week. I need to get in church three point nine times a month, maybe even four point six, if that's possible. That's a long month, but five Sundays, right? That's where my mind goes. I'll share myself. Right. I'm like, gosh, I'm in. So so I need to go memorize Psalm twenty three tomorrow morning and I need to do this and I do that. I just go into that. And I've seen I know you write in the book that, you know, spiritual transformation is not the result of trying harder to be holy or do better. I hear that. I say amen to that. I don't know how to do it. Could you give me and maybe some of our other listeners, some. How do I do that? It's truth, but I receive it and can act on it.

Rusty Rueff: He's asking, does God have copies?

Chip Ingram: Yeah, yes and no.

William Norvell: OK, that's the new that's the paradox is through it,

Chip Ingram: there is always going to be a challenge and a tension between our being and our doing. At the risk of being Bible teacher, let me speak to an entrepreneur. You always start with the end in mind. You have this picture of what you want to see happen. That's how God works. So let me, in my mind, walk you through a very quick overview. Ephesians Chapter four, because if you don't understand the flow, you'll just jump. Into like what you just said, well, I just memorize more, I'll do more, I'll go to church more. At the core of life change is understanding identity. It's all about identity, it's not about performance gaining, impressing, it is you were in darkness, you are now in light. You were a son of darkness. You're now the son of light. You've been sealed. You've been paid for your valuable, your wanted. Your future is secure. Now, I want you to have your beliefs or your lifestyle to be reflected in your behavior. And so the first place you go, contrary to what we do in most churches and I've been guilty of this is the first place we tend to go is read the Bible, pray, go to church more, etc.. Where the Bible goes is a command walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, and then listen with all humility, gentleness and patience, bearing with one another the very first place genuine life change happens in an environment just like that little green worm becomes a butterfly in the environment of a cocoon, genuine, deep live change where you're doing flows out of your being. It happens in a level of relationships that many of us never have experienced. So the first step is, OK, I'm a brand new person. I have to be in close connection with other very genuine other believers. And that first place is my family. So with all humility, I'm going to grow by putting the needs of my wife and my children. If I'm married or my roommate ahead of myself, I can't do that. Good. Now ask me for help. Well, then I'm going to do that with all gentleness. That means letting go of my rights. That means I'm going to do it. Well, I can't do that. Good. You can't do that. I'm going to help you ask me to help you to to use the power that you have instead of using people to use it to serve others. And then they're going to make you a little bit crazy. And so you have to be patient with them. I don't have that in me. In other words, what happens is you're in this close proximity of relationships. The first command and how to walk is these. And then he goes bearing up with them and talks about this unity. And so what I want everyone to hear is the American individualistic sort of me, God, my Bible, our work really hard, I can teach myself. That is an impossible to change. It happens in the cocoon of authentic, deep relationships. Most entrepreneurs don't have that. In fact, what you guys are doing with the small groups are critical. The second thing is the power isn't your will versus seven through ten. I just covered verses one through six. Seven to ten is what Christ accomplished in between Friday when he died and Sunday morning when he rose and he defeated Death Sin Satan and declared it in the lower parts of the earth. And so he wants us to understand you've been given spiritual gifts, but the evidence, the reminder of those gifts are this. It's supernatural. It's I've given it to you. I beat death. I beat the power of sin. I took the penalty. And this giftedness, these talents, what I've given you, I want you to use those as a steward rather than this is my toolbox to make me great. And then he goes on to say an eleven to sixteen. I'm going to put some people in your life to help you get where you can't go on your own. Apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, teachers for the work of the ministry. Why? So until we all achieve the fullness of Christ, that's the goal. And then he says, if you really want to know whether you're changing or not, he says, then we're not tossed like children here and there. By every wind of doctrine, we speak the truth and love to one another, and we learn to participate to find out where we fit doctrinal stability. You know, the scriptures speaking the truth in love and then finding your part where you're connected and loving others. And so what I want people to know is that's just the runway. And then verse 17 to 24 is going to teach you your personal responsibility. Once you sort of are in that environment, it says, OK, put off the old. It's like taking off dirty clothes. I used to be on porn. I used to drink too much. I used to womanize. Stop it. Renew your mind. This is what God says I am going to memorize. Here's some doing. I'm going to memorize scripture. I'm going to put good things in my mind, and then I'm going to put on these activities and then what he does. And verses twenty five to thirty two, he's going to say you can't just try hard to do those. You have to go into training and he'll take five specific areas that I walk people through that are strategic, going to training around integrity, go into training around work, go into training around your emotions, go into training around your attitudes. And I talk about how to take it off, renew your mind, put it on. So it's the whole chapter. And for people to understand it's a journey, it's a process. It can't be done alone. It has already been accomplished. And this is that phrase, and you'll hate it, but it's true, it's appropriating what you already have. The Christian life is letting Jesus live his life through you, not you busting your rear end, I'll say that on this one in order to somehow step up and be that good Christian entrepreneur that, you know, your high integrity, you got a great marriage, you're being a great dad, you're growing a good company, and inside your soul is crushed and there's envy inside and there's fear and there's anxiety that is not God's plan for us. Sounds like you got a sermon instead of a discussion. Sorry about that.

William Norvell: So I was just going to say, that's a you know, those old school things used to rip them off. It's like a five minute sermon, James. I was like just gave us a sermon. Jamira It was a service jam. We're just going to get a print that Amen

Henry Kaestner: appropriating what you already have. A guy called me up seven or eight years ago and he said, listen, I think I've got a word from the Lord for you. And I'm like, OK, go with. And he said, you know what? My sense is that you're really good giver. And I feel pretty good about myself, I said, but my sense is also that you're really bad receiver and like, Oh my goodness, I felt good for about two seconds there. And then I think that entrepreneurs tend to be doers rather than because we tend to be givers rather than receivers appropriating what we already have and letting that sit in. Someone gave us you can't change. You can't really think and expect to change aside from being bandaids or any type of change in your actions will be temporary if you haven't really just really received.

Chip Ingram: Yeah, I think you're right. In fact, you know, the number one entrepreneur in the church is Peter. I mean, Jesus didn't you know, sometimes we downplay yes. They weren't the most educated guys, but they had a fishing business, you know. And what was his number one challenge? Lord, don't wash my feet. And I think my time with God has so changed from did I read my Bible, how long do I have to pray? How many verses of my memorizing and how am I negotiating all of that to. I just want to be with you. I would like to hear what you want to say. I'm glad that you want to see me. I'm glad that you're kind. I'm glad your understanding is infinite. Like this morning, I woke up extraordinarily early for me and I laid there for a while thinking it's got to get at least to the four before I'm going to get out of bed. And and I just had

Henry Kaestner: seven thirty this year and this was seven thirty three. You want to wait for it?

Chip Ingram: Yeah, it was kind of three thirty eight. Goodness. And you know, I'm glad to wake up whenever the Lord wants me to get up, but as I lay there, it was just my mind. He was all the kindness, the grace, the good things. And I just sensed it was like the Lord just wanted to be with me. Let's get up together. And I made a cup of coffee, went down, sat on the floor of my office, lit a candle, lean back. And then I got my journal out. I just I started writing thank you. And I got into like five pages. And, you know, I didn't read the whole Bible a whole lot. And but what's changed is I'm receiving I just I don't think God's surprise that we're needy. I don't think God's got his arms crossed and has a little, you know, like, OK, only two stars on the refrigerator, on the big refrigerator in the heaven for you today. And you only prayed for seven point eight minutes. And I think here's the key. Do you love me? Am I most precious, you treasure me is your ambition to please me, and do you mess it up every day? And do you sincerely come and say, you know, Lord, I did this. This was just yesterday. I had to text two people in my office and apologize. Something came up and I could feel myself getting a little ramped up. I said, no, hey, here's the deal. No, those are the deadlines. And I went off a little bit and, you know, their eyes kind of got a little bit big. And in my defense, I, of course, didn't mean too much by it. But I realized was it was like that old flesh cropping up that, no, we're going to hold that publisher accountable. They said they're going to do this and blah, blah, blah. And it was with a tone of voice. And, you know, so we joked about it, you know, and then I drove out and I was in my car, went to go work out. And Holy Spirit said, you're joking about it, but joking about it doesn't cover it up. GIPP That was the old you. That was they need to make this happen. They need to live up to this. You're going to make it happen. That's displeasing. That doesn't make me happy. You need to apologize to the people in your office. Of course, then you have this like maybe tomorrow, you know, Holy Spirit says, no, you need to address that right now. And they were gracious, but it was interesting. The piece left, you know, it says, let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts to which you called into one body and be thankful the piece just left. And the moment I apologize to both of them, ask them to forgive me. It was just like that's what we're talking about, that when we say, how do you change? That's what we're talking about. We're not talking about you got it all together and you never blow up. You never I think it's being authentic in your relationship with the Lord and responding to how he leads you. That's a good word. Henry receiver. It's good. I'm not very good at receiving either. Maybe we should receive with one another,

Rusty Rueff: so, Chip, you know, you understand entrepreneurs as well, if not better than any pastor that I've run into. So let's say we've got a listener who's committed to this transformation. Right. And I don't want to turn this into doing. But they are asking themselves the question, you know, are there elements of the climate around me, right. As an entrepreneur that if I could just maybe change or shift or think about them differently, you know, it would help support me in the real transformation that I want to have happen in my life, you know, talk to our entrepreneurs about those elements of a climate.

Chip Ingram: OK, I'm going to talk about the climate and then let's dispel something, because we're unconsciously, not explicitly, but we're implicitly applying. You either should be doing or being. No, no, no. What we're really saying is you're doing needs to flow from your being. That's a fundamental difference. It's let's face it, if you don't do anything, you don't have a company. You know, if you don't do anything, you'll never change. But that doing can be I'm going to prove myself. I have to make it happen filled with anxiety and fear and or it can flow out of a quiet center where the spirit of God is empowering you and you are collaborating with him. It's not all God or it's all me is together. But there is an environment. I like to I have an acronym for life that I have never met and I think the Bible teaches this. I think history teaches this. My little acronym that that acronym is not operating in your life. You will not change. And the acronym for Life is bio like, you know, bioethics or biology bio. And three things have to happen in any believers life. Number one, the B stands for before God. I believe you have to come before God daily. And by that I certainly mean a specific time that the reformers had this idea were like, yes, I meet with God in the morning first thing and then I'm praying. I'm living before the face of God all day. I'm praying in the car, meditating on scripture I'm in. In other words, I want to be before God. I'm living a life before God consciously and with some regiment of God's word and prayer. And then I believe it's important to come before God corporately. You know, the rhythm of Jesus was once a week and there is something to hearing the word of God preached. There's something to being in a community of people and singing together and worshiping God that is transformational. The eye is for in community. And I don't mean just in a small group. When I was a younger pastor, I used to say life change happens in small groups. And it's true. I got into too many small groups where there wasn't life change. You know, we were talking, you know, we read a verse, someone filled in a blank and hey, who do you think the forty Niners are going to take this quarterback or, you know, the women are over there going, hey, did you see that sale? And so and so, you know, and so in community is the kind of heart to heart, face to face, authentic, dependent and raw connection with one another. We're the two strong edges of in community. Our number one, the real me can show up and the real you's going to show up and you are going to love me and I'm going to love you enough that you can share your deepest hurts and struggles. That won't shock me and that will go nowhere else. And this is a safe place to process this. And the other edge of that is that if you keep sharing the same struggles that are just sin and don't do anything about it, or I see you drifting and doing some stuff that you know and I know are wrong, I'm going to love you enough to not in my mind go who am I to judge? And I'm going to get in your grill and I'll sit outside your home and I'm going to tell you I love you so much. This says that we're not playing games. I love you so much. I'm watching how you're relating to your secretary. And that's bad. The last time we were together, you know, I could tell, you know, you didn't have a glass of wine after dinner. I could tell on the phone, I don't know what you're doing, but and when you have that, see, that's genuine accountability and love, but that's in community. That's what Jesus had. And the third one, the O is for on mission and on mission means it's two aspects. One is the moment you wake up, you're a servant of the living God. So if you're a husband, it's what does my wife need? What am I kids need? What's going on around here? I'm a servant leader. When I pull out of my driveway, here's a neighborhood and I'm Christ ambassador when I get to work or where my startup is, the garage that we're hanging out. And I'm going to serve when I go to church. It's not like, you know, consumer, where can I make a difference? And then the on mission then primarily, as you discover, as you mature, this is my primary spiritual gift. These are my talents. And I can be best used by taking 80 percent of my service orientation around what I do best, what God uniquely made me to do. I call it my teachings to calling and so be I owe. And what it does for me, it's like this is for life. Well, what life? This is the life of Christ being produced in me, because, B, we always become like people we hang around. So I'm going to hang around with Jesus. I'm going to hang around with people who love him, and then I'm going to serve because there's something about giving away giving it'll be given unto you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over. As you give your life away, you discover it. So that's the environment and those are dues. Those are flat out. And I do it when I feel like it and I do it when I don't feel like it. That's the other point. You guys got me off. But I think we've got this idea that if I don't really feel like serving or loving or reading the Bible right now, I don't want to be inauthentic. That's a bunch of garbage. Doing what you don't want to do or feel like doing is probably one of the greatest evidences of love ever. Jesus did not emotionally want to die for you, OK? He he didn't go to the garden godfather. We've got this all planned out. This is going to be awesome. You know, it's going to be pretty tough on me. It was like emotionally, I don't want to do it. If there's any plan B, it's choosing to do the spirit that produces discipline. Discipline is a spirit produced ability to do what you don't feel like doing and doing what needs to be done when it needs to get done. And I think when I do acts like that for my wife or for God or for others, I think I might be more loyal and more loving than ever before because I sure didn't feel like doing it. I was a little bit of a long explanation that helps count that sermonette.

William Norvell: Number two, double surman jam you got. You got to serve James.

Chip Ingram: I can't I'm starting to feel the Jones here.

William Norvell: I know. I feel like we got to get second. Our guests like our get you to a gym, one or the other. We got we got two scoops there.

Rusty Rueff: All of a sudden we're big scoop. There it is.

William Norvell: I got a baby killer is killing it. I just can't think of anything better for an entrepreneur to I mean, the way you beautifully articulated that. I mean, I just there's so many things you just have to do out of love for your company, out of love for your vision, out of love for your employees, out of love for the investors you've promised. You know, I would imagine any listener here is one hopefully going to go pick up your book and to not going to look at Ephesians for quite the same way again,

Chip Ingram: in my mind's eye, could be crazy. But I had this sense of what we've said and how I might be thinking about what I need to do. And I just want to say one thing. This can't be done alone. It just I mean, the level of intensity, the discipline, the encouragement, the failure that you're going to have, every command in the New Testament is in the second person, plural, this Christian life, it's Christ living his life through you. But it's not hard. It's impossible. And we can't do it alone. My number one thing for those listening would be who's a brother? If you're a man or who's a sister, who's someone that has the kind of walk with God and you have the kind of relationship that you might say, you know, man, I was listen, this podcast Faith Driven Entrepreneur and I got to have at least one other person in my life that wants to do life this way. Yes. We want to build a great company and yes, we want to have great families, but it's got to flow out of a deep, abiding relationship with God. I need help. I need help doing that. I just wanted to encourage our listeners with that, because those of us that want to make something happen, I don't usually wait around for someone. I just get going. And I think this is one you need to get going. But, boy, you need to get going with someone.

William Norvell: I love it. OK, I know. My last question now, I'm going to ask you, Jeff, what is your favorite, maybe not favorite the wrong word, but what is one of your favorite partnership stories in the Bible where you say that is a partnership someone should go read about to be encouraged to find a partner for their journey to partnerships?

Chip Ingram: Come to my mind, I think I love Jonathan and David. David would not be David without Jonathan. And not only humility of saying, hey, you know, rightfully being this king, that's my deal. But I recognize God in his hand on your life. But there's this classic time when David literally was going down the tubes and the circumstances, you know, it would be like all your investors in one day said we're not going to invest. The bank calls your note and your top three employees quit. That was where David was. And it says Jonathan went and encouraged him and God. And I think the other partnership is Barnabus and Saul. If you read acts very carefully, Barnabus really is the leader. I mean, he's the head man, but he sees a need that someone else is better at filling. And he goes and gets Paul because he knows Paul's real gift with the Gentiles. And then they do these tours together. And you read the Texas Barnabus and Paul Barnabus of Paul Bond with Ron Paul. And then over time, it's Paul and Barnabas. And it's that humility. Barnabas, even the kind of convictions that he's an encourager. He recognizes his strengths. And he says, you know, second journey, we need to take Mark. And Paul says, you know, that threatens the ministry now comes too important. And I think they were both right. So Paul says if you want to keep being encouraged, you're you go ahead and take Mark. This guy's got potential. Titus, you come with me. They double the ministry. Years later, Paul would write, send Mark and the parchments, especially the parchments, because Mark is of great value in service to me. Barnabus didn't give up on him. So I think the kind of partnerships where, you know, their seasons, their specific roles, there's genuine humility. The goal is the kingdom. It's not, you know, who does what. It's about fulfilling what God wants. Those are the ones that throw my heart.