25 years of helping people. 117 companies consulted. 20 million books sold. 150 million people served. 

It’s hard to overstate the impact Dr. Henry Cloud has had on leaders all around the world. He has an extensive executive coaching background and experience as a leadership consultant, devoting the majority of his time working with CEOs, leadership teams, and executives to improve performance, leadership skills, and culture. 

We talked to him about all of this and why being a great leader is less about what you can do and more about who you’re with.

Episode Transcript

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Henry Cloud: So you see a Navy SEAL, for example, they land behind enemy lines, first thing they do, they look at that GPS and they ask three questions. Where am I? It's a good question for an entrepreneur to ask, where am I? What's current reality? Number two, where's the enemy? And number three, where's my buddy? Now, think about this, because if they know the answer to the third question, they can find the answer to the first two. But if you don't have the third one. You are screwed and the CEOs and the business leaders that succeed, their number one priority is who do they surround themselves with?

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. We've got a great guest today, it's not often that we have somebody who's been an author of books that have been bought 20 million times. That's a pretty big deal and sets the bar pretty high as we start thinking about this Faith Driven Entrepreneur book that we've all been working on.

Rusty Rueff: And by and by the way, is this is the first time. And William, you correct me. I think it's the first time that we now have two Henries on the show at the same time. So this could get confusing.

Henry Kaestner: Right. Henry Kissinger continues to say no to us. And so, yes, it is indeed that Henry, I don't know and maybe I should say the same for you probably don't know many peers that that share name, but, you know, it's becoming popular again.

Henry Cloud: Finally, I mean, when I was a kid, it's like the dirtiest name ever. I used to kind of go, oh, I wish I were named like John or something. But now it's really a cool name. I love it. Yeah.

Henry Kaestner: If you're on a soccer sideline and somebody calls that Henry, I know I turn my head, but until about 10 years ago, I can't tell you how many people come to me said, oh, that's a great name. My dog's name is Henry or my parents' name is Henry. Right. Clearly it's not a common name.

Henry Cloud: in the 15th century. That was right. That's right.

Henry Kaestner: That's right. Thank you, Mom and Dad. OK. All right. So, Henry, thank you very much for being on the show. We'd like to get an understanding the background of all of our guests, unless somebody tune in this and say, OK, here's this academic is an author. That's actually not you. You're Faith Driven Entrepreneur. You've got a background in business. You've raised money, you've led people. Tell us a little bit about who you are, where you come from. Bring us up to today, OK?

Henry Cloud: You know, it is weird when you say, yeah, you're not there. I go. I'm really not that's not what I do. But I guess I do. But I'm a practitioner. Yeah. So I'm a psychologist by training. And what happened was I came from a business family, a business background was accounting and finance major in college and then picked up a psychology major. On top of that, when I said it's my faith, I wanted to go to this field. Long story short, I had been in practice and my first job was actually in a leadership consulting firm that worked with CEOs. And so it had a business context. And I was a clinician, you know, back then, executive coaching didn't exist, but that's kind of so they wanted to shrink in the leadership consulting firm to work on these kind of growth issues. Well, about five years into it, six years into it, my business [...] started to kind of get bored with not doing anything in business. So I wanted to start a faith centered psychiatric hospital and treatment center. And long story short, I went out raising money, look for investors, all that kind of stuff, and then ended up with some minority partners, went out and did one hospital. And that one worked. And then we did another one. And that one worked. And then we did another one. Ended up throughout the western United States, had hospitals and treatment centers in 40 different markets, four states, Washington, Nevada, California and Oregon, and ran that company entered. Yeah, you know, medicine, hospitals, regular hospitals, known hospitals. I would go in and I'd knock on the door every Faith Driven Entrepreneur we started it literally. I didn't have a penny. I mean, we started this from a broom closet. I mean, no money at all. But when knocked on the door, the first hospital and said, look, there's a lot of people out there that need psychiatric treatment, depression, eating disorders, alcohol addictions, drug addictions, all of this. But they want to come to a treatment center where their faith is seen as part of the answer, not part of the problem. And it wants to be friendly to faith. And there is a big need out there. And so if you'll give me a wing of your hospital, I'll take it through the state licensure process. I'll bring the doctors, I'll bring the patients, I'll market it the whole deal, and let's do this. And so talk to one hospital into trying this. And so we tried it and then that one worked and ended up in 40 different markets and ran that company with with John Townsend for about ten or twelve years and then managed care to change the landscape, which is another thing entrepreneurs run into. I mean, you know, you get disrupted, right? The industry changed. And so when the industry changed with managed care, where we went from 30 day stay. So I think of a revenue model that's built on a certain model where you have thirty days to treat somebody and then it went to three to five day stays. The whole thing changed that we were still, you know, very profitable. But at that point, the faith mission I could no longer do. We could medicate somebody, stabilize him, get him out. But we couldn't do the deep spiritual and emotional family, relational psychological work there was life changing, which. Why I went into it, so I sold the company at that point and then went to working with CEOs and businesses and companies

Henry Kaestner: and writing and so on, the writing part on the consulting you do with CEOs and leadership work that you do, but also the writing you've written on relationships and boundaries and when to say no and integrity and happiness and so many other great resources. But I want to ask you if you can consolidate those topics a little bit and answer this question in the hundreds of thousands of leaders that you've worked with, some very, very closely, some more remotely. But in all the leaders you've worked with, is there one thing that you could offer up that differentiates a good leader from a bad leader or maybe even a good leader from a great leader? Just different things that you see that are just emblematic of that person has what it takes because they've got X, Y and Z.

Henry Cloud: Well, I hate that question, but it's issue. That was what made

William Norvell: me ask it. Yeah. Good work, Henry. Thanks for really honoring our guest.

Henry Cloud: Yeah, well, but I was going to say I hate the question, but it is a great question and here's why I hate it. Whenever you say that one thing is sort of like, OK, if there's one thing that's essential to life, OK, well, what do you want? Air, water or food, which you only pick one, because in reality, you know, there's kind of this cluster of things that come together. It's not a million things, but it's a few things. I and so I actually wrote a book on this in a way called Integrity. And here's why I called it integrity, because a lot of people would say, well, the one thing that a leader's got to have is integrity. But what they mean when they say that is they mean the most elementary definition of integrity in a certain way, which is basically a moral and ethical definition of integrity. In other words, somebody is getting integrity out, lie, cheat or steal. You can believe the numbers, all of that. But how many business people do you know that they wouldn't lie, cheat or steal? But if you're asked, do you want to do another deal with them doing work with them again, we go, no way. Well, why not? Because what they're missing are all these components that are true integrity. The way the literature talks about it and the way actually our faith talks about integrity means to be integrated. It means to be whole. An integer is a whole number. OK, so you could say if they have one thing, it's they have integration of their character. So that's one thing. But see, it's multiple things, right? So if you look at a great leader, what you're going to see is in that book integrity, I use the metaphor of a wake. So a boat or a ship, and it goes across the ocean. It leaves a wake behind them. And a leader does that. You go to an industry they leave awake. All right. Well, what's the wake like, Will? Katrina leaves a wake. A hurricane leaves a wake of destruction. Some leaders go through industries or companies or departments and they leave a wake behind them on two sides. One is the results that they get. Are they fruitful? Did they move the needle? Did we innovate? Did we capture market share? Did we grow? There's got to be results. But on the other side of the way is the relationships, so I think if a great leader, if you look at what do they have, they have the integrated character, the wholeness where they can do both and they do both well in a transcendent way, where they bow to things that are larger than themselves, God, the values, the mission, the stakeholders. If they put all that together, that's a good Amen Amen.

William Norvell: William here, integrity. Such a great word. I love that that's where you and it's just in the way you explained it is something to aspire to in all of our life. Professional, personal, all of those areas. And, you know, I've heard Henry say before, so I'm going to transition to a new book you've written. Henry's got three boys heading into college, ninth grade, eleventh grade and twelfth grade. I've heard him say that before in the [...] character. You know, college isn't about the grades you make. It's about the hands you shake. Right. That's his personal strategy. And, you know, he's living that on the three Kaestner boys. Your book, The Power, the other, he

Henry Cloud: wouldn't be out there raising money or doing stuff like that. Right? It doesn't it

William Norvell: doesn't describe him at all, does it, at all. And I've heard him say that I was interested in how that parallels with your book, The Power of the Other. Does it confirm this or not?

Henry Cloud: Do you know the statistical term orthogonal?

William Norvell: I have heard that word said by people.

Henry Cloud: Yes. Well, it's two factors that are not related. So, yes, it confirms it. But the way that he means that it might not be what I'm talking about, but it actually does because that can be taken two ways. It is about the handshake. And so, yes, it confirms it. When I wrote the book, The Power of the Other [...], the basic premise is a lot of times in leadership development or in business development or personal development, you know, what you'll basically hear about is you'll hear about that. You know, you've got this brain, right? You've got this piece of equipment and you've got to get your brain working and you've got to be healthy. And then you've got the software that runs the equipment. So you've got to have the understanding, the belief systems, the attitudes, the knowledge, all of this. We do a lot of leadership development on the software. Right. But the reality is a person, they got the hardware of their brain, they got the software, but the third leg of the stool is their relationships because here's the deal. And this is true about all high performers. I don't care if you're talking about Tiger Woods or Olympic athlete or a Navy SEAL are the best people in business. Every human, their brains, who they are, it runs on three things. You've got physical equipment, the wiring, you got the software, the belief systems, the knowledge, the attitude software and all that emotional regulation, all that stuff. But the third leg of the stool is the relationships that they're connected to. And so it works like this. You take a baby and you put them in the world. They come into the world. And what's the first thing they do? They don't turn to Mom go, oh, gosh, I'm sorry. Was it hard on you? I don't you know, let me clean up around it. No, they're like this. What are they doing? They have a chip inside of them. It's searching for a connection, just like your cell phone. You turn it on, it searches for connection wi to be able to be connected to the network that's going to enable it to get to the next level. OK, that's not just a baby. And if they're not connected with in that relationship, shaking the right hands, their brains don't grow, their emotional regulations don't grow, their body doesn't grow. Yeah. Adopt them 12 years later. If they didn't have connection, they have behavioral problems and they have missing parts of their brain. But then all the way to the other end of life, you take octogenarians. If they're not in the proper relationships, they have second, third heart attacks and strokes. Point being CEOs in the middle of life, it's their relationships that are the power of the other that actually it's like your computer being online. That's where they download the updates to get to the next level of performance. And that's also where the viruses are removed. So you see a Navy SEAL, for example, they land behind enemy lines. First thing they do, they look at that GPS and they ask three questions. Where am I? It's a good question for an entrepreneur to ask, where am I? What's current reality? Number two, where's the enemy? And number three, where's my buddy? Now, think about this, because if they know the answer to the third question, they can find the answer to the first two. If you don't have the third one, you are screwed and the CEOs and the business leaders that succeed, their number one priority is who do they surround themselves with and in the power of the other. In that book, I list great long lists of high performers in business. And who the other the main mentor, the main support person. Each one of them has somebody and they're always going to be there. And the people that don't have them watch out. Don't give them money if you're [...] like you guys or an investment bank or even joining a partnership. If somebody isolates, if they operate in a vacuum. Be careful.

Rusty Rueff: Stay away. That's great. I love the metaphor. The hardware software. I guess you could say the relationships are part of the user interface, right. That when you put those two together and and so many people, you know, actually, sadly, if you go early in the generation of a entrepreneur or a business person, you know, whether you're in college or you're getting your MBA, you know, you're taught to Quote on quote network network. Right. And that networking that is so important to do, to be able to build those relationships, you know, sometimes that user interface can not be good, right? It can turn other people off or it becomes the end versus the means. Right. It's like, oh, I got to build this huge group of networking. Can you talk about that and give some advice to our young entrepreneurs who are trying to do that and do it well and build those relationships, how to be authentic, how to do it in a way that establishes real and long term relationships versus these, you know, very transactional and maybe very superficial.

Henry Cloud: Yeah, it's a really important question. And I'd look at two dimensions on the outset. One is, what is the closest circle in that network building in you if you see your closest, closest connections? As they're going to be building your balance sheet of, you know, all these other networks that are going to, quote, build your business, be able to drag money over the transom or our connections or markets or whatever, that is, if there's just a source of business stuff that's really problematic, if that's the foundation, because your closest network is going to be the people that are building you because you're the equipment that's going to build the business. OK, so if they are strengthening you, if they are purifying you and I mean that in the clearest sense of the word, like, you know, I work with CEOs and generally a lot of the problems they find themselves in have to do with impurities that they've got to get out of their soul. And that ends up, you know, read the front page of The Wall Street Journal most days and there's going to be some business story. There has nothing to do with the CEO. Was it smart enough? It had to do with a lot of relational dynamics, destroying trust or the culture they built or all that kind of stuff. So you want the closest people in your network to be building you as a person, strengthening you. There's going to be times listen, you can't depend on motivation. There's too many times where you wake up. You don't feel motivated to do anything. The closest people are going to put energy and fuel into you. The word encouragement means to take courage and put it into us. You've got to have that kind of Navy SEAL tribe that does this for you, that are building you. So from there, you're also going to build out to be able to have the eyes to see with them helping you which hands are worth shaking in the broader network and which ones are. So that's the first dimension. The second one is. Why am I building this network, is it. I mean, who's the tech and who's the dog here? Any network that you build and your motive is just to serve you, you will destroy that network or it will move away from you. But if you're looking at building a network, asking primarily, I don't mean this in a weird way, but what value can I bring? To these people. How can I serve what is important to value, and you see that network in that way, not only is it going to yield good results, it's going to be more meaningful, it's going to be more purposeful and it's going to stick around. And so I think the network's important, but why are we building it and what's it doing for us? That's really, really key. How do you mean? Who was a son of some close friends of mine and he graduated from college and actually they had had a big loss in his family and their extended family and terrible time, really depressed graduate college in Florida. And Tori and I said, let him go live with us. And so he came to stay with us. OK, so I got to know the guy was so gifted in business and finance and relationally and so smart, I said, dude, you ought to go into financial services. And he said, really? Because he was really interested in the markets and he invested money in a bunch of stuff. And so we started to look into it. He got more and more interested. So he goes to work for one of the big firms. After they sent him off to train, he calls me. He had moved at that point. He said, I don't think I can do this. And then I said, why? And he said, Because it's like, I can't I feel like a snake oil salesman. Tell me, build this network of, you know, like my friends and referrals. And he said, I feel like I don't want to be used and people like that. It just feels terrible. And I said, OK, dude, let me tell you something, if you feel like a snake oil salesman, you got to get in a different mindset because I know you and you're not in financial services, the great ones, every person they work with. Do you know that 99 percent of the people out there, what they lie awake at night worrying about is their retirement, their kid's college? What if I lose my job? So much of their pain and life comes from their finances. You're not a snake oil salesman. You're an ambulance driver. You're going to go join somebody's life and that marriage in that family and you're going to bring them peace of mind. And they're going to understand they can have a future. They do have options. You're going to empower them. You've got to look at this network thing differently, OK? He changes his mind because that's how he was inside anyway. And he got into I can be in business as a ministry to people, as a service. Guess what finished. No one in the whole training thing killed it, just killed it. But he was building a network in a way different place.

William Norvell: Amen, Amen. That is a it's a really healthy reframing. And, you know, we all end up in different spots. Thanks for sharing that practical example.

Henry Cloud: And for him, OK, for him, I mean, it did take a reframing and kind of the cognitive mindset that he was bring it to it, but it didn't take a reframing of his heart to see. That's the thing is what I was talking about earlier is two sides in this network. The why am I doing it? But also the people that were close to him that we're building into him as a person, we're helping him. I said let's get it pure, you know? And so that's who he was, that a person. So when you're in business and you're coming at it from a pure, authentic heart, you're there to help whoever comes across your doorstep. People are going to know that. And that's really important.

William Norvell: And that's a great point. And not to paint a negative picture, but they're going to know the opposite, too, if that's not where you're coming from. Absolutely. It's going to show

Henry Cloud: I have a friend who built a big company and a competitor who was bigger, came along, said, we want to buy you out. And so we started talking to him. He said he was kind of interested in that. He said, no, I'm going to sell anything I was going to sell, but I want to have the conversation. I want to find out what they thought we were worth and just know they go through this whole thing and the other company comes along and says, all right, let's do this. And I don't think I want to sell. And the other company says, well, you better because we will crush you if you don't. And you know what he did? He said, let me make it easier for you. He gave them all their internal strategic plans and documents and all of that. He said this might help you. He said, because we've learned a lot over the years just that you're going to do the same kind of business and crush us. He said this might help you. And he gave it to him. They'd looked at him like what? And he said, I really wish you well. The company goes out there and they fail. And he said. I knew they didn't have a chance. I said, why? He said, because for us it's all about the people and loving and serving the people. He said they didn't have the secret sauce, they could have the strategy. I knew it wouldn't work.

William Norvell: Hmm, that's an amazing story. That's amazing. That's that's a bold step.

Henry Cloud: I don't know who he was, but I

William Norvell: think I think I was with him right up until the handing over of all the documents. Well, that seems like a bridge too far, but I'll pray about that and see if God can humble me a little more. Speaking of that idea, though,

Henry Cloud: if you had me and I'll help you succeed,

William Norvell: right? Exactly. Exactly. I was you know, that's that's honorable. You know, I want to shift topics just a little bit, but kind of along the lines of what we're talking about. What are your big initiatives that we're big fans of his churches, that he'll and I want to make sure our audience gets a chance to hear how they got started and what that idea is all about.

Henry Cloud: Well, it's an exciting project. You know, as I said back when when I started my company way, way, way back, it was a faith, entrepreneurial effort, you know, and I don't mean that just because I'm in a field where you actually talk about faith, like when you're talking about people's lives and healing and all that, because I think it's the same thing with great companies that sell widgets or, you know, fried chicken sandwiches or others that they're there to serve and they're there to help. So it's not just because you have that content, but in my particular field, know, that's how it started. And part of it was to help people who were struggling with things like depression and addictions and all these things that we put in the category of mental help. You know, the best psychological evidence based treatments are also the very processes that are throughout the New Testament and throughout the Bible. And so there is no conflict, what research does and empirical studies is, it actually validates what the scriptures say. And so my mission in life was to try to show how, you know, thriving and well being in business and relationships, but also in our clinical issues was also about the development of our spiritual lives. That's right at the center of it. And so about two or three years ago, you started to hear out there, there's a mental health crisis in America. Right. And with the number of opiate addiction was really driving a lot of the awareness in the beginning. But also it was in depression and anxiety, a bunch of other stuff. And it's getting worse. Right. Then parallel to that, you also started seeing a lot of pastors who were leaving the ministry burn out in the stress. And sometimes, you know, they'd kind of screw up in some way. And there's a lot of pain in that arena. And so we started working on a project called Churches that Heal. And what that means is we wanted to come alongside churches and provide just an answer to both sides of that equation. How can we help the leaders heal? The pastors become healthy, but how can we help the churches reach into the neighborhoods and the communities that they work in and help the people heal in this mental health crisis? And I can tell you, the health care system is not going to be enough. It's going to take the churches to go into the neighborhoods and help people that are really, really hurting because we're talking about depression, anxiety. We're not talking to somebody in a rubber room up there, an institution. We're talking about the person in the cubicle next to you at work. We're talking with the neighbor across the street. And a lot of times you tell them that the person people are looking at in the mirror. And so I wanted to provide a program that churches could do both of those, help the counselors, help the people in the community, and that's called churches. So plug and play a whole program that churches can begin to use.

Rusty Rueff: That's awesome. I want to turn our time that we have left here before William brings us our traditional clothes. I want to go to another leg of the stool. That's Henry Cloud and that's your authorship. And you know, our listeners, they're here and we're here for them to you know, they want to be equipped and we're trying to equip them at the same time. I know they hunger and they thirst for more knowledge. So they reach the books. Right. And there's no shortage of leadership books that are out there on.

Henry Cloud: And it really is no shortage, I think.

Rusty Rueff: And there's no shortage. And you are in that pantheon of writers who are trying to increase better leadership. Give our listeners a little bit of direction and hint on how best to utilize leadership books and then please, you know, shamelessly and do not worry about it, self promote to tell us, you know, which of your books should we be picking up and making sure that we read cover to cover.

Henry Cloud: Oh, gosh, well, to answer the first part of the question to me, there's kind of two important parts to that. As I said earlier, I think that if you look at the Bible, for example, or you look at the psychological and leadership literature, the metaphor of the values is you got a tree and the tree produces fruit. OK, what 99 percent of people are trying to do is they're trying to go after the fruit. They're only reading leadership materials about how to increase our profits, how to write whatever innovation, you know, opening up new markets. How do I go international? How do you raise funds? What's marketing there? Looking at all the stuff that's going to make them more or whatever more means to them? What they're not doing is they're not focusing on the tree. OK, and basically in its core, core, core, the tree is you OK and the tree is your integrity. And I don't mean that in the moral, ethical sense only that's foundational, but I mean your integration of becoming complete. OK, so I wrote a book called Integrity. One of the ways I would look at that whole thing is when you're looking at the genres, remember looking at it with two sets of eyes, which books am I going to read that helped me become more complete and the best person I can be in this context, I don't mean the best. Whatever we're talking about, business and leadership, that's one part. And then the other part, you have two sets of eyes. Then there's going to be more tactical context, subject driven expertize focus that you need to have. But make sure you're reading both. One of the things I have a model of leadership is kind of these big buckets, because a lot of people it's interesting, I go into an executive meeting sometimes and I say, OK, I have us three by five cards, write down what's a leader, what's leadership, like you said with the book, or you're only going to get sixty three thousand definitions. And they're basically all true. The problem is how do I go execute on that tomorrow. So what I tried to do in my work is I've tried to look at how does a human function, what is it a leader actually does? And let's build a model from there about the functions of what leadership actually is and develop the person in the leadership in the companies, because I work with companies and developing leaders, let's get them to be able to do those big five things. So I talk about it and then we can drive down to the specifics of like one of those I start with, like it's like the brain first thing the brain has got to do if I want to go from here to there, that's leadership, right? I'm sitting here, my vision is live. Could be better over there as the first day I got it, I got to come up with a vision. Second thing my brain does, it engages the talent. It's going to need some legs, commands. It's the right talent. I'm going to need to walk over there. But then the next thing I got to do is I got to figure out how I'm going to get there. Am I going to walk? Am I going to fly a plane? Am I going to do this now? Decide on a strategy and a plan and that tells me how to get there. OK, let's go now. Start to go. I wonder to see my body. My brain has a measurement system in it to tell me am I getting closer or farther away and then real quickly holds me accountable so I can quickly adapt. So if you look at a leader and they're really good at vision, which has a lot of psychological components and personal and interpersonal components, they're really good at engaging talent, picking the right talent, engaging the right talent, Kievan that they're really good at making sure strategy and a plan happens which are different but one bucket and then they really build in good measurement, accountability systems, a lot of interpersonal dynamics going there. How do you hold people accountable? How good are you at all of that stuff? And then quickly, how fast do they adapt and fix the problems that they're measuring makes them aware of? That's what our body does. Now, then, if you're becoming a whole person in those functions, then you can take any one of those topics. There's probably five books on strategy that I could recommend immediately. That's the deep down. So I want them focusing on their development and I want to focusing on the context of the specifics. I love this. A long answer. I feel sorry for that.

William Norvell: No, it's a fantastic answer. But I love the tree and fruit. I love that metaphor. And I want to ram that in. I love the idea of working on the tree. And I do think so many business books are 30 days, 60 days, the revenue, you know, whatever. And those are bad. Those are bad. Right. But I love refocussing to some of the tree as well. And I love that. And as we unfortunately have to come to a close on this session, I'm sure we'll beg you to come back. We love to ask our final question, which would be, is there a scripture or a story in God's word that maybe coming alive to you in a new way or maybe something you read this morning that you would like to share with our audience

Henry Cloud: a scripture that's coming right now or, gosh, this morning that's very recent. You know, there's actually a handful of them, and one of them is not a particular one. It is a phrase. And then I'm going to add another. But the phrase is one of the things you hear God saying over and over and over is behold. I'm doing a new thing. And I think one of the things that I see we're right at the end of a year, there was unlike any other year we've seen in the pandemic and now leaders and entrepreneurs are going through that. One of the things that that has said to me that I've seen in me, I've seen companies, I've seen it in individuals, I've seen it in marriages and seen in families, is that there is a very, very, very deep and good of John 15, a deep and good pruning going on right now. That, you know, John, 15, that whole passage tells us is that he says, you know, if there are some that are just going to prune them and toss them into the fire, but some other branches that they're pruned, they're fruitful, but they're pruned so they can be more fruitful. And one of the things that I've been really, really asking God to do and seeking in the last year and I've seen companies do this and I've seen CEOs doing it with their teams and strategies, is they're pruning themselves and their businesses and they're letting go. I actually wrote a book on this called Necessary Endings. There are things that have to end in order to get to tomorrow. And it's a deep pruning. And I think a lot of us in this time period have gotten back to asking what's most central to my mission, to my life, to lots of things and what do I need to cut away and what needs to be cut away from me? And it's kind of a pruning time, I think, inside my own heart, inside my life story, and I've been talking about what are some things we need to let go of, you know, stuff the crap accumulates in our lives over time.

William Norvell: Hey, man, I mean, why in our hearts. Right. And our hearts

Henry Cloud: and in our business. And why did it take a bankruptcy judge to shut down Pontiac? Think about that, General Motors Pontiac hadn't made a profit in, what, four decades, you have the smartest executives in the world hanging on to the saying goes, we'll get rid of that. Well, a lot of times we're so emotionally attached. It's just we're hoarding stuff for sure. And sometimes it's even destructive stuff.

William Norvell: Hey, man, what a fantastic way to end, and especially during the season. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for sharing that. The idea of pruning to find out what could grow is an amazing place.

Henry Cloud: And I said I didn't give the shameless plug go for it. But one of the things one of them is not a book. It's a platform. If you go to boundaries, dot me. I've got a digital platform there. You can sign up and I've got over 80 courses, everything from performance to, you know, the emotional relational side of life boundaries. Got me to go to there and check that out. And then the books I would recommend are there's three or four business books. The Integrity Book is one Boundaries for Leaders is another one, which has a lot to do with the actual execution of those necessary endings, which is a step you've got to get rid of the people. You've got to fire the stuff you've got. It doesn't belong to your future. It's really important. And then the power the other those four leadership books are the ones I pointed to Amen.

William Norvell: Well, thank you for that. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for sharing so much wisdom with our audience. We're incredibly grateful and thankful for your long obedience in this direction.

Henry Cloud: Well, thank you for what you do. And I'm so glad you're focusing on entrepreneurial Faith Driven Athlete leaders because guys think about this in the Bible. I always say this to my pastor, look, you get paid for being good, the results are good for nothing, right? It's in the Bible. There were all this little group in the ministry, what we call the Levites, and they just they did the religious activities. But the word for ministry is a word that means service. And so God made the rest of the tribe to provide people with the food and the tents and the livestock and all the stuff you do. And you were put on the earth as a minister. Just because you don't do hymnals or choir roads doesn't mean that you're not faith in entrepreneurship. They go together.

William Norvell: Absolutely. That's our learned experience and why we do this. And thank you so much for blending those together.

Henry Cloud: Good to be with you.