Lecrae is the staple of the Christian rap scene. When people are looking to define the genre, they look to him. And with good reason—he has won 3 Grammy awards. 

But before he was the face of Christian rap, he and Ben Washer, now Co-Founder and CEO of Reach Records, were recording songs for summer camps and pursuing their creative dreams in the best, scrappy way they knew how. 

We talked to both of them about the story behind Reach Records, why Lecrae moved to a traditional label and then back to his own, and how God is using their talents to share His message.

Episode Transcript

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Henry Kaestner: Lecrae and Ben so pumped to have you guys on the show. Ben, I want to start with you and take a trip down memory lane all the way back to 2001 and KAA, Kids Across America sports camp in Branson. And I think if I'm not mistaken, you create something called Egg Crate Studios. Does that ring any bells?

Ben Washer: Oh, yeah, man, you're going back. I'm impressed. Yeah. The sports camp I worked at Kids across America. We have kids that were bussed in from cities all over the country. And my job ended up being camp entertainment. So I was in charge and all the music and all skits and games at camp for about four years. And over the course of that, music was so central to camp that we ended up making a recording studio. And to call it a recording studio is very generous. Was basically a little computer mike. It was about the size of a quarter. And, you know, some egg crates that we put up on the walls. And so we'd record some stuff for camp and have fun with it. But they've carried on the tradition there. And now they have like a legit studio. And, you know, it's part of their curriculum.

Henry Kaestner: What's it called? It's GHOP or something like that now.

Ben Washer: Yeah. GHOP.

Henry Kaestner: So, OK. So this is obviously it's a long time ago. What was your primary motivation and what kind of get you going and was it the entrepreneurial side of things, the innovator side of things, or was it more of the creative side of things?

Ben Washer: I mean, they're kind of connected for me. I've always been entrepreneurial, even from a young age. You know, think about businesses. I wanted to start when I was older. And even in college, I remember talking with some friends about starting a radio station that was like half Christian songs and half secular mainstream songs. So I always had a music bug and always had an entrepreneurial bug in to me lean more on the creative side of business. You know, marketing ideas, products, that gets me going more than spreadsheets, operations and, you know, finance guys.

Henry Kaestner: I think there's a first time we've ever talked about music on the program and really kind of the entrepreneurial side of the creative business or the creative side of the entrepreneurial business. William, Rusty am I mistaken?

Rusty Rueff: No, I don't think we've gone there yet.

William Norvell: I have zero musical talents. I don't usually talk about it.

Henry Kaestner: Well, you and me both. But Rusty, of course, was the chairman of the Grammy Foundation. He's got lots of experience there. So, Lecrae, I want to go over to you. I want to ask you a similar question. So rapping and creating is a big part of your story. I've been really enjoying listening to your book. I love audio books. I especially love audio books when the author reads them. So I feel like I've gotten a little bit of a insight in your life now. Creativity is always been a part. But talk about the business side, too, and talk about how not only did you see an opportunity to create, but how to see a business around it. What did that looks like for you?

Lecrae: Yeah, I think I always love the idea of crafting empires, you know, similar to being as a kid in my mind. I would just think of, like, you know, a warehouse that did all these creative things as probably outshoot in my abilities. But in my mind, I was like, yeah, this part will be like a record label and this will be the film company. And, you know, that was how my brain thought as a kid. And it's funny because I really wanted to produce music, can be a producer, but the artists who were rapping over my beats, I just didn't like what they were doing. So I started rapping over them myself and just took some initiative there. But it was always about being a catalyzer even with our first album that we did outreach. I wanted everybody else to be on it. I wanted all my friends to be a part of it. So it was always about trying to craft something bigger than, you know, kind of my own build in and around myself.

Henry Kaestner: So you guys meet in, Denton, Texas. Is that right? Studying the Bible under Tommy Nelson. And I've got some friends who helped me with some of the research, of course, but I have some friends who did that same discipleship program as well. And they can't speak more highly of it. What was it like for both of you and how did it form your faith? And is that when the friendship really began?

Ben Washer: Yeah, I mean, my first memories of Lecrae are sitting next to each other in that class. And there is a guy that kept falling asleep in class every day that was sitting next to. And so we had some fun, like his head would start to bob and, you know, cause it was six to eight in the morning, super early and, you know, nobody got a full night's sleep when we get in there half awake. And this guy was bobbing his head. And so I remember Lecrae taking like a Coke bottle and putting it under the guy's face so he'd, you know, lean over and it would hit it and then he'd wake up. And so he just had some fun on that.

But, yeah, it was a great time because we bonded. I think the cool part about is our relationship started with a love for God's word, you know? So we didn't really connect on, like, let's build some music industry thing. It just what came first was we love the scripture and stopped a year of our life to go learn it under Tom Nelson. And that's the genesis of how our friendship started.

Lecrae: Yeah, I think what kind of stands out is, you know, music was obviously something I was extremely passionate about and a friend of mine said, man, you got to meet this guy. Then call him Ben Wah. And now he knows his Christian rap man. And I was really expecting this, you know, young, hip, probably black dude, I'm not gonna lie to you.

And I saw it six foot six, six, seven, floppy haired Auburn grad come through the doors. So I was a little taken aback, but it was crazy because as being said, I think the entrepreneurial spirit that we embodied was like geared toward people knowing Jesus. It was kind of like this, not trying to sell Jesus, but just like expose the world to him. You know, like faith was the thing we were so excited to push. So us teaming up together was more about how can we collaborate to, like, get our faith far and wide in the creative space specifically.

Ben Washer: Yeah. And then in addition to that class, then we also had this time outside where we'd serve and he and I served in the same place, complete on MacFadden ranch, and it was outside of Denton in the country, and it was a juvenile halfway house for kids that were locked up. And so we would go to do the kids together, put on church service. And that's another avenue of how we got like boots on the ground service with each other. Lecrae would rap church. We'd both speak at it, both the mentoring kids. It was a great beginning. You know, I feel like on the right foot instead of just chasing after success.

Henry Kaestner: Ben, did you rap too?

Ben Washer: Umm, well...

William Norvell: We've done our research.

Ben Washer: There's been some jokes in the past.

William Norvell: That's some cool writing credit raps over here.

Ben Washer: I might have written part of the first song, you know, I might add a little bit of a pen there. I'm mostly behind the scenes. You won't find me rapping anymore.

William Norvell: Hey, Ben and Lecrae, William here. You know, it's always good when you question God's faithfulness or whether he's there. You see him doing good things through on people and you're like, yep, Auburn grad who knows Jesus has got to be their only explanation.

Ben Washer: It is amazing how many people have come out of Auburn and fascinating, really cool things.

William Norvell: Amen, Amen. Okay, so crossover. You were just getting there. We want to turn to that and then of course it afterwards. But you were hinting at it. I hear there's a great origin story of your first collaboration with Crossover that involves a voice mail and maybe some of the aforementioned rapping from Ben.

Ben Washer: That's true. Know, I remember this clearly. I was leaving McFadden doing some tutoring or something there. And I was driving away. I was still in the long driveway for that reach. And I had a voicemail, my old phone, whichever one that was. And like I said, I think Lecrae got asked to do this theme song he was going to do for kids across America. So the theme that summer was crossover and he was going to do a theme song and he left me the beat. He played it on the voicemail. And I loved it. I just remember, like, freaking out in the car thinking, like, was the best be beat I'd ever heard.

Lecrae: And then we went and recorded some guy's closet that you found in a phone book or something.

Ben Washer: My phone book guy.

William Norvell: Well, listen to that. Listen to that. So that's a long partnership to take us from that. So that's where you are in a phone booth. You know, with a phone book, you know, not says that you're going to end up where you are today at the Grammys. So take us to reach a little bit. What was that journey like? At what point did you flip from. Hey, this was fun. We met each other. You know, this was entertaining, too. Let's bring in some people, Tadashi. Trip Lee, you know, this is a serious career move. This is real. You know, we can do something through reach records. How did that happen?

Lecrae: So I remember, you know, Ben and his partner at the time, Chris, you know, had the idea kind of like, hey, let's start this label. And so they used their I guess it was yours. You know, whatever a lifesavings is at 22 years old, whatever that is to get it off the ground. My life savings at 22 years old would have been a cheeseburger.

Lecrae: So, you know. But I remember, you know, them kind of trying to woo me like, hey, is this about God? But what do you think if we did this. I don't know where you are at a rooftop or some place.

Ben Washer: Yeah. His dad's like uncle's office or something. Have a cool view.

Lecrae: Yes. But you feel important.

Ben Washer: Yeah.

Lecrae: But I remember just being excited to see, like, because I've always been a type person and moves a million miles an hour and so implementation has never been my strong suit. So having the ideas is always been great. But like seeing them implemented and having people who can come alongside and make it happen is phenomenal. And Ben and Chris were way further along in that kind of process. And so just to be able to, you know, put the songs on a C.D. was like amazing to me. To me, that was like, I cannot believe these are my songs, my words on an actual CD that was like huge. And so that part for me was just like I would have died right then and there. I would have been it. But like you were saying, kind of went from there to just recruiting people. I was a part of a campus ministry there, and I was recruiting people who I knew were talented within a campus ministry who could sing, who could rap, and if you didn't have any musical talent, then come speak on an interlude. And it was just everyone was included on this project. And the cool part about it was it was a viral moment for us back then where been I believe we took it up to camp and it was kind of like it caught on like wildfire.

Ben Washer: Yeah. Yeah. Because they come in from all over the country and then have an experience of the music in the summer and then go back to their cities. So it's spread all over the country through that.

Lecrae: So that was neat just to see it. Catch on wildfire at the camp and it was OK. Man we got something. We got something here. Two other things I remember is orders coming in. I've never been so happy to sit in the living room and lick envelopes and stick them and send them all over the country. I think somebody ordered something from Australia, probably costs more to send it to them than we got for the purchase. But that was amazing. Just those days were sweet.

Ben Washer: You know, Tedashii was Lecrae roommate.

William Norvell: Oh, really?

William Norvell: Yeah. So a lot of the early stuff we did was burst out of friendships, you know, it was a hunting down artists doing just we're friends with these guys and Lecrae's friends with these guys. And it grew organically from that.

William Norvell: That's cool. My favorite. I don't know if it's deep track, but go hard with you in Tadashi. Still my favorite song you've ever done. I listen to it all the time. It just like I had to suck up a little bit on the podcast, but it inspires me, my wife, just like I get chills just thinking about the words right now. And I've written a blog post on this before on FDE. So I'm not making this up right now. It just captures me every time I listen to it. And so just that stuff lives on forever and just thank you. And it is I think about that. He's so creative, you know, and and you guys aren't and give us all different gifts. But Henry and JD Greer, a pastor in North Carolina, just did sort of a video series that talks about as entrepreneurs we are called to create and we feel God's pleasure of overdoing some of these things that were created to do. And I just love it. If you could maybe give a voice to that, if that resonates with you at all. If it doesn't. Obviously don't. But if that resonates of feeling his pleasure as you create music and as you create things and businesses and enterprises.

Ben Washer: Yeah. I mean, I think anytime someone's able to exercise their gifts, especially if you're a believer and you're able to exercise your gifts connected to where you feel like is serving the Lord, I mean, that's like the perfect marriage. So if you're bent to be an entrepreneur, you're able to start architecting and putting together pieces and creating, you know, something out of nothing it feels like. And you see it impact people. It's like the pinnacle of how you're designed. So I definitely agree with that. I mean, that's an exciting space to be in, especially at the beginning. You know, when you're all in and, you know, you burn the ships and you're just going for it. It's a great moment.

Lecrae: Yeah, I agree. I also think it's something sweet about, you know, when you're able to exercise all your gifts and you're not overly concerned about how they'll be received or perceived where. You know what I mean. Obviously, I think whenever you create something, you know, the market will always humble you and let you know what they think about it. But when you never anticipated a market to respond, you know, you're just excited for any response you get. And I think that was the sweet spot for us initially. Ben is like he's great at visual art. He has a good ear for music, obviously entrepreneurial, dabbled in like technology. And so he was able to employ all those things early on because he was able to just fill in the gaps where there was no body. So it wasn't like, I don't know if this is the best creative design. It was like, well, who else is gonna do it if I don't do it? You know, he's making five hundred dollars a month at this homegrown label taken on every task. And so that was the sweet part for me. Me being able to go on the road. And, you know, we didn't have banners saying CDs for sale. It was like Sharpey on a box. And those are the sweet spots. Has been able to use your gifts in that way. And then you hold them and you get better at them, obviously in then you learn. But even to this day, Ben may not design the art, but he now has an eye for quality and you know, he can delegate accordingly.

Rusty Rueff: So I want to pick up on that move to sort of quality into what we could call excellence. Right. And, you know, when you guys had the one one six click and you were trying to decide how you're going to stay sort of grounded. There had to be a moment. Right, because, you know, you weren't the first Christian rapper. I go back to Larry Norman. He wasn't a Christian rapper, but he was the father of Christian Rock. And then Shai Lin was doing his thing. But you found a place where there was secular receptivity. Right. For your message. And obviously, you know, with church clothes and gravity. You're in the mainstream now. Talk a little bit about that sort of. How do you stay pure and excellent in Christ eyes in the midst of a genre that's kind of not known for staying down the middle of the fairway? I mean, we've got other Christian rappers who, you know, will claim to be believers and we don't have to go with who they are. But I have no problem dropping the F word or anything else. But that's not you. So talk to us about how you wrestled with that and then you know where you are today with that.

Lecrae: Best thing I can do is kind of give an analogy. If you imagine a one year old who can't walk when he takes his first couple steps, he's probably going to fall. But when he falls, the people around him are not like shaking a finger at him saying, you stupid toddler. You know, they're actually encouraging him, saying, get back up, you can do it. And then what ends up happening is he takes a couple more steps and he falls with it. Eventually, with encouragement and with help, he's able to walk for a sustaining period of time without falling. And I think that's a mark of what our story's been. Is being able to clap for each other when we fall or when there's temptation and being transparent to being honest when you're tempted to do it for the money. We attempted to compete for the wrong reasons or wrong motives. You can be transparent. And people, when they see you making decisions for the wrong reasons, can say, get back up, get back up. You know what I mean? And I think that's been the key for us is being honest about those moments and giving each other grace and space and, you know, having a sounding board and encouraging each other to stay on to true north.

Rusty Rueff: That's good.

Ben Washer: If I could brag on Lecrae, it's that I have a partner in this business that loves the Lord above all things. And so, you know, we've had highs and lows throughout our journey. And I have absolute confidence that at the end of the day, Lecrae is going to want to obey what the Lord said in his word and want to arrive at a conclusion that honors the Lord. And so whatever we go through, I know that's on the other side of whatever situation we're in. So that has been an amazing part of our partnership. And I was talking to somebody today and I was looking at a deal or some new thing we're trying to do in the deal just didn't reflect this idea of partnership at all. It was like full of these things that communicate lack of trust. And I thought, that's right. There's so many people that have these terrible experiences in partnerships that mine is like this is the greatest thing ever loads. You don't want to partner up with somebody. But I think it's unique in the sense that over and above success, over and above status, at the end of the day, he wants to honor the Lord. And so that's been a great anchoring point for us along the way. And that commitment to excellence or the commitment to purity or the commitments or whatever, you know, that's in the background.

Rusty Rueff: Well, you also made another sort of counter move, right? So every artist dreams of being signed by a major record label and you're signed by Columbia. All things look from the outside. It's gonna be great. And then you don't re up with them. Well, what was that about?

Lecrae: I mean, I think the intentions initially were great. The intentions were to relieve some of the strain on the staff. You know, you've got to remember, we just had a number one album independently. It was a high moment. But then there's also, you know, I'll be honest, internally, it was a scary moment, too, because now you're thinking like, wait, how do we stored this? Well, what do we do? What's the next thing? And so sometimes I seek insight to a fault or, you know, it's like you're trusting, like all these other things to a fault. And I think for me, it was believing that that was the way toward stewarding this kind of thing that we built well. And the lesson I think I learned in that process is that you've got to know who you are when you walk into any type of partnership like Ben is saying, you've got to know who you are. You got to know who your partner is and just have a real clarity of your goals and be able to be firm on that. And I think if you don't have similar goals, there's gonna be a conflict of interest. And it's not a Columbia thing. It's just a reach. Records has a particular goal in mind. You know, at the end of the day, we want to honor God. We want to see lives changed and transformed. And I don't know of any major labels who would count that has their highest, you know, goal. So I think there's always going to be a conflict. You know, when your ambition is impact over, you know, impressing people.

Rusty Rueff: All right. Yeah. I so admire both of you guys and the purity that you bring to your music. I'm gonna quote back. A lyric of yours that I think probably embodies it all from no regrets off of church clothes. I hope we live twice because I can't wait to give up this life. And it feels to me what you both of you guys have just been really great at doing, is working towards the kingdom, using your talents. Doing all the things that you need to do. Touching people, but not compromising because, you know, the next life is the better one. So I appreciate that. And you and Lecrae, I want to give you a chance to talk about the upcoming book that's coming out. The title is I Am Restored How I Lost My Religion But Found My Faith. That in itself, sounds like it's going to be really interesting. So give us a preview.

Lecrae: Yeah, I mean, it's really the snapshot behind ascending the hill, you know, success. A lot of wins, but there's a lot of pain in that process. And then no body deserves the amount of praise or criticism as we give to public figures. And so I wanted to give people an inside look at how that affected my heart, mind and soul and allow people to understand how the solution for the pain and turmoil that I was going through was not more religion. And I think that's one of the things that unfortunately most Christians learn is religion. We learn that if I just have a quiet time, I pray long enough. If I go to church enough times and somehow that's going to fix my internal woes. And the reality is those things are things that we do because of our desire to want to know God. They're not things we do to get God to know us or to get God to love us. So we're doing that out of a love for God not to gain God's love. I mean, I think I had to learn that, especially being in, you know, an industry where performance garners you praise. But God doesn't work like that. You don't have to perform for God to bestow on you is love and just to promote it.

Rusty Rueff: October 13th.

Lecrae: October 13th. Yes. October 13th.

Rusty Rueff: So you could preorder now. And we all should.

William Norvell: Hey, this may be the little off script, so feel free if you don't answer this question. I want to jump in there and ask this. Lecrae, I follow you on Instagram. And I think you've just had a very important voice during the current movement. Black lives matter in the pandemic and many things going on in the world. And and I think that's a product of a lot of we've talked about you guys long obedience in the same direction. People know who you are. They know what you're after. They know you don't have an ulterior motive. They know you're not coming from that perspective. And I know I just felt something. Parents feel remiss not to give you a chance to speak to our listeners in whatever way you want about either how they should be thinking about this time or praying about this time, or consulting others or God or particular scriptures or something. Whatever God may put on your spirit and yours to begin to pass along to us so that we can dig deeper into what God wants to do during this time.

Lecrae: So this is something I think is really cool. Ben is a white guy from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, went to private school, goes Auburn and partners up with a black guy from completely on the other side of the tracks. But not only partners, but genuinely seeks to know, to understand, to grow and to serve. And I think it serves everybody well to have that type of humility, that type of empathy, that type of like. He's done a great job of walking through the fear of asking the wrong question. He's done a great job of saying, I don't know if this is stupid or what this means, but, you know, for a white guy like myself, what does this look like? What does this mean? Or give me your thoughts on this. And I think that space has served both of us well, because for me, it's allow me to see different vantage points and perspectives and say, oh, that's what people are thinking. And for him, it's done the same thing as well. I don't know. I guess I would just say and I let Ben chime in, I would just say, man, relationships just serve everybody. Well, you know, relationships really change things and not just kind of like a hi, how you doing? But when you need each other, you know, it's like you're not just friends at the golf course or at work. You actually need each other. I think that's what God intended is for us to be a body. When you need your arm and you need your leg, you're more dependent. You're more like, OK, wait, Mike, my shoulder is messed up. I'm like, wait, what's really going on here? Because I need my shoulder versus like it's just the I don't know what's happening, but I can move on with my life. I really have to take time to figure out what's going on here and how can I work through that. So I think that's what's happened with us.

Ben Washer: Yeah, for sure. I mean, those are great points. You know, I just echo that. It's hard to figure out which way to go over the Internet. And so my encouragement is the relationship side. If you don't have relationships with people that aren't like you. It's gonna be hard to really put yourself in their shoes and understand and then a growing be challenged and be open to correction. And all that stuff is really hard to do on Twitter. And, you know, that usually ends up creating worse separation. A lot of times I've seen. So I would just encourage people listening, if you're wondering what to do. One of the first steps would just be genuine relationship and being able to go listen and learn and be willing to be challenged. And not just go in with walls up trying to prove something.

William Norvell: Amen. And one of the best ways I can think of to adopt that posture is to be steeped in God's word. And what he tells us how to be and is we'd like to close all of our episodes. We love to see how God's word does transcend between our guest and our listeners. And it's always amazing days to hear the stories of how one of our guest shares what God's doing in their life through his word. And it connects perfectly with one of our listeners, as I'm sure you probably hear from your lyrics. Have you know, you didn't write it to that person, but that person received it, you know? And that's what God had planned the whole time. And so with that, I want to transition to for both of you. You know, where my God have you today in his word. It could be today, could be the season of life. Maybe something you're meditating on that is coming alive to you in a new way. Could be something. God gave you this morning. But just maybe you let our listeners in to where your journey is in the Scripture day.

Lecrae: So two things. So, one, I've been going through the book. John. And I think I've been blown away in a new way of seeing the light of the Lord, the light of the world, the light God of creation come to earth in the most lowliest of forms, like if God came to Earth as Bill Gates, he still would have been taking a step down. You know what I mean? And he goes below below that. And that just blows my mind. And then at the same time reminds me when he says the first shall be last and I shall be first. He really exemplified that like he really laid out as an example of saying, listen, I'm I'm first. There's no one more first than me. And I'm coming in. Born into an impoverished situation in a freakin Palestinian barn. And that just reminds me to stay low, to stay humble, to stay. Trying to serve and to try to remember that the first will be last and last will be first.

Ben Washer: You know, for me, I just finished this morning going through Exodus the past few weeks. And what's really standing out for me is how much God cares about holiness in his own holiness and how serious he is about it. And that's kind of sort of out of style right now to hear about holiness or to be called into being holy or this idea that God is holy and he's so serious about it that, you know, people have died for disrespecting it in the past. And so it sounds like you don't want to talk about that now, you know, like God's will, grace and all that. And, of course, that's the huge part of the story. But I think. Respecting him for his holiness and challenging ourselves to walk in honor of that is a great thing. I've just been marinating on that. It seems like obedience is kind of out of style right now in some ways, you know? And I think it needs to be something we're seriously thinking through and praying through and seeking as believers.