Do not skip this episode. That’s all we have to say. We have a lot of great stories on this show, but today is a powerful story told from the perspective of two parties. 

On one hand, you have an entrepreneur who finds out one of his best friends and business partners has stolen six figures from the company. And on the other hand, you have a man who has made a series of personal decisions that have gotten completely out of hand. The story of Rob Thomas and Jeff Parker tells a powerful tale of deception, confession, repentance, forgiveness, redemption, and all the messy steps in between.

It’s the long, tough road of what it looks like to walk through our brokenness and how each of them stewards their stories to point others to the Gospel. Listen in to hear them both share their side of the story and then talk about it together…

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

 

Henry Kaestner: [00:02:48] Rob and Jeff, we're so grateful for both of you coming on the show today. Some of us have heard each of your stories that you've shared before. And if I'm not mistaken, each of you has shared about this different times at church events. But this might be one of the first times that you share together. Usually on this show, we've got a lot of questions and kind of direction we want the episode to go, but today we put the mics in your hands and let you run with it. Probably break this up in a couple of pieces, first Rob than Jeff, and then we might jump in back and forth with you guys a bit at the end. But Rob, let's start with you and want to give you the freedom just to tell this the whole thing, start at the beginning, of course. Tell us about your story. Tell us a little bit about your first and second entrepreneurial ventures and that day when everything changed. [00:03:29][41.0]

Rob Thomas: [00:03:30] Great. I'd love to. And thank you so much for having me and Jeff on the show. We're both really excited to be here. And yeah, you know, I've known Jeff now since 2003. I believe he was in our first foundation group, Haley and I, my wife, we started a foundation group, which is a young married couples small group that we do in our church. And Jeff and Stacy were in our first group. And I got to know Jeff and thought they were an amazing couple. And I had just only months before I started a new company called Igniter Media and Igniter, basically. I mean, we create media content for churches. We started out creating these things called mini movies, which are basically sermon illustration videos that pastors can use to help them teach. And we ended up doing that and started to create other things as well. Things like worship, backgrounds, countdowns, all kinds of things that we thought that churches could use on a typical Sunday morning. And a couple months into that, I met Jeff and we hit it off and figured out, hey, man, we would love to work together. So we started working together. And Jeff was my first hire. And I used to say all the time, Jeff is my best hire. I mean, he and I went through so much with our company. There were so many things that happened in the years that he was there. He was there about 11 years. And in that time, we launched Ignite or we grew igniter from a team of the two of us to probably around twenty to twenty three people. And so serving the church in as many different ways as we could, we launched a magazine at some point. We did that for about three years. We launched a conference really for church creatives where we could come together and we did that for six years. We launched another site called Worship House Media that we ended up selling to Salem, a different company. And so we just went through so many things. And I can't imagine doing all that without Jeff. Jeff not only is a great business man, but Jeff is a friend. He's fun. I laughed so much with Jeff. I mean, he just was a friend of our family. In fact, we would travel together, we'd find excuses to go to business events and we would take our wives and we would do cruises there. I think there were two cruises that we did and went down to Cancun for an entrepreneur, Dave Ramsey thing that we did. So we did several things and just our lives were integrated and probably around the year 2014. You know, that was a year that we decided to buy a new building. And so we bought this twenty thousand square foot building that we were really excited to move into and we were, you know, planning for that all year. I took a sabbatical that year as well. And by the time we got to the end of 2014, I really was starting to feel like, man, I haven't spent enough time on the company. So I was really excited to start 2015 going, OK, we've got to get really like, what's the next phase of this company? And so Jeff and I happened to be going to Florida to go to a Tony Robbins conference, and it was one of his business mastery conferences. I don't know if you guys have been to one of those, but they're insane in some ways. A lot of fun. And man, it was like drinking out of a fire hydrant. So we were there. And really the purpose of being there was to plan for the next five years. We were ready to take on the next chapter of Igniter. And the last day of that conference was kind of the day things really shifted and changed for us. That morning we got on an airplane to head back to Dallas. And you know, something about that airplane ride I found out later was very significant. But I knew something was off with Jeff. And I even remember asking him. I said, hey, are we OK? And he was like, yeah, yeah, I'm good. I just have some things I'm thinking about processing. So I took it at face value and was like, OK. And something felt a little off. But, you know, we got home and kind of we're hanging out with our families. And then I got a text from a guy that we both work with, Clint, who happens to also be in Jeff's community group. And it was one of those texts that just kind of you typically don't like to get these kind of text, but it was basically, hey, we need to see you and your wife, Haley and your community group. And we need you to meet tonight with Jeff and Stacie and his community group. Can we meet at the office at 7:00? And so now that was a big moment where I'm like, oh, something's going on. And I wasn't sure what it was. And keep in mind, we'd only been in this office for about three weeks officially. So this was the beginning of something new. The new office. The new. OK, here we go. We just got back from a conference. We're ready to take on the world. And so we met, we all gathered in the new building. And Jeff started to basically talk about something that happened in 2008, which was about seven years before this conversation. So he mentioned that he had gone to Las Vegas with some friends and they were celebrating some birthdays. I think it was his 30th and they had, you know, done the machines, done the gambling, whatever. And that night, they ate, and everybody put cash down and he put the company credit card down and paid for the whole meal and took their cash. [00:08:33][303.3]

[00:08:34] And as he was explaining that, he was basically saying, hey, I used the company card inappropriately. And even I remember even as he was saying that, I was like, OK, that's that's OK. That's no big deal. OK. You know, I'm glad that you felt like you wanted to tell me that, but that's fine. And then he basically after that went on to say that was the first thing that kicked off about seven years of using the company's finances in an inappropriate way, using them personally. And the number was quite a bit larger than that dinner. And so basically, he confessed to embezzling money and that he'd been doing that for seven years without my knowledge. And so that was a that was a big deal. And I was so stunned. I remember being so stunned that I didn't even know I was supposed to be upset about it. [00:09:25][50.6]

[00:09:25] And I know that sounds weird, but I remember I remember giving him a hug at the end, thanking him for telling me that. And then my community group and my wife, we met at my house right after, this was late now, we met at my house and they basically told me, you know, you need to let Jeff go. Jeff needs to be fired for that. This is a big deal. And it really wasn't until the next day when I woke up that I realized just how big of a deal it was. [00:09:51][25.9]

Rusty Rueff: [00:09:54] Jeff. Years ago, I think it was a film and TV started doing overlapping stories. I think of the movie Crash and the show Lost. And even right now, you know, This is Us. They show the story from different angles and different times and places and have it come together at a defining moment. [00:10:11][17.6]

[00:10:13] We want to give you that same space that Rob just had there. Could you take us back? What was your story leading up to that moment and how did it unfold for you? [00:10:23][10.2]

Jeff Parker: [00:10:24] Yeah. You know, for me, it begins. And just quickly, I became a believer when I was 14 years old and trusted in Christ. And I knew I was forgiven for my sin. I knew that that's what he went to the cross for and that he paid the penalty that I deserved to taste. But strangely enough, I didn't know what to do with my sin. I didn't know that, as James 5:16 says, that if you confessed it to one another and if they pray for you, if they walk with you right, you begin to find healing. And so as a 14 year old, I knew I had stuff to share with other people. I just didn't see anyone modeling that for me. And I don't use that as an excuse. I just didn't know. Right, because I wasn't deep in God's word to see the formula. And so meanwhile, I just held on to all my my junk. And as Rob was saying, as we showed up at Watermark for the first time, this would have been back in 2003. I begin to see guys like Rob and his wife Haley live authentically in a way that was really encouraging. And there was something that resonated in me about it. And yet I still had all these little things I was holding on to. And I'd let a little bit out here and there. I'd confess a certain percentage, but I'm like, I'm not going to confess that one thing or those two things. And so I just held on. Different things, and so just kind of eat me alive. And it would also prevent me from pursuing Christ. And I remember kind of it was right when I turned 30 and I thought, hey, I'm turning 30. Here we are at a company that's kind of growing. And, you know, we've got a couple of kids now and I'm like, I've got to be God's man you know, in this decade. And I go and you know, the stuff in Vegas, everything Rob just said is exactly what happened. And I remember just thinking, I'll never be God's man. And in that moment, I knew I needed to go home and confess right away. And yet I stuffed it along with some other things that I was stuffing. And I just drove headlong into the world of gambling. It's like I wasn't going to pursue Christ. And so, you know, I was going to taste and see what the world had to offer. And so this time, nobody knew anything. My wife didn't and Rob didn't. And so, you know, I really chased hard after online gambling. And meanwhile, you know, again, what Rob was saying, you know, when Rob and I first started I was twenty five and we were celebrating every little sale we got. And we had one division and it was just me and him. And five years later, it's like, all right, there's ten fifteen people here. There's multiple divisions. There's money coming in the door. And, you know, my role at the company was at a place where my character couldn't sustain without pursuing Christ and I wasn't. And so I went headlong into this world of gambling, and it was a big sin. But that little sin of call it three hundred dollars became six figures pretty quick over that seven year period. And I remember every single day wanting to confess and yet kind of hardening my heart towards it. I mean, with full integrity, I can say I love Rob. I love his family. I love the mission of what Igniter does. And I knew what I was doing was hurting all of those things. [00:13:33][189.1]

[00:13:34] And yet I was also scared of consequences that might happen. And so I tried to stop and manage my sin. And I was like, okay, I'll keep it at three hundred dollars. But while I stayed silent about my sin, my bones wasted away. That's King David from Psalm 32 and my three hundred dollars sin became a thousand dollar sin, which became a five thousand dollar sin which became now it's three years and multiple thousands, you know. And so it just was a slippery slope because I wasn't willing to confess that this took me to places, you know, I never thought it would go. We use a phrase here a lot. I forget who originally said it, but it's like sin will take you farther than you want to go. It will cost you more than you want to pay. And I mean, I experienced that firsthand. [00:14:17][42.8]

[00:14:18] And I remember about five years into that, remember, this was a seven year struggle. I remember about five, five and a half years in, I came really close to confessing. I hated who I was. I hated that I had stolen what was six figures worth of money from the company. I hated that I wasn't the husband I wanted to be, I wasn't the dad I wanted to be. And I just I was miserable and I felt just life kind of slipping through my fingers. Meanwhile, I'm like, man, if I don't confess, I'm going to ruin the company. I mean, I have no control over where this sin might take me and I have no control over the devastation it could cause to the company. And so I came really close to confessing about five and a half years in. And yet I kind of said, no, I'm going to keep my mouth shut. I'm going to try to pay the company back and I'm going to brace for eternity. [00:15:07][49.1]

[00:15:08] You know, so to speak, which I knew was stupid and foolish, but I just was scared of the earthly consequences that might happen. And then over the next 15 months. Right. The right thing for me to do every single day of that seven years was to confess. But over the next 15 months, God just started to brew in me a hatred for who I was not, even more. I begin to hate that. Forget that I was a white collar criminal and a bad friend. I mean, literally betraying my best friend and his family and lying to my wife. Those were all true. But it was the converse thing that the Lord started to grab my heart that I was like, Man, I'm supposed to be salt and light. I'm supposed to be a city on a hill. I'm supposed to use my job. I'm supposed to steward this all for the glory of God, not just avoid sin. I'm supposed to be in an Ephesians Five husband. I'm supposed to be somebody that loves their kids and an understanding way and as a faithful boss and employer and faithful employee. And I was none of those things. And so just over time, God just kind of kept working on my heart. And, you know, Rob mentioned the Tony Robbins event. And I remember kind of I was teetering, really felt the need to confess as strong as ever. And I was looking at Tony Robbins, that event almost as like, oh, this will be a breath of fresh air. Let me get far away from my home. I'll be with Rob, but we'll just focus fully on the business. And maybe I can kind of stay silent about my sin a little bit longer. And so, you know, I tell people, look, if you're looking to find Christ, don't go to a Tony Robbins event. But if Christ is looking for you, it doesn't matter if you're at a Tony Robbins event. He'll come and track you down. And just everything that was shared, everything. Rob and I talked about, I just remember my heart swelling and I was getting passionate again for the company. And at the same time, I was like, hey, I'll be the guy that either crators all of this or I won't enjoy the ride. And I just remember writing out who I wanted to be. All those things I just shared. I want to be this type of husband, this type of friend to rob this type of boss at work and all these things. And I just remember the spirit just gently going, Hey, that guy, if you want to be that guy, you confess. So, you know, I'm sitting on the airplane sitting next to Rob, knowing that who knows what this might mean for me? It could mean jail. It could mean any number of things. It's definitely kind of life as I know it is over. And so I just wrestled with it. And, you know, who knows? I flip open a book on my iPad. It's Dietrich Bonhoeffer's book, Cost of Discipleship. I'd never read it before. I'm just reading the first chapter. I highly commend even just the first chapter to people, but it just talks about cheap grace in there and that most people settle for cheap grace. And I just remember going, that's all I'm hoping for right now and I need to lay my life down. And so I fired up airplane Wi-Fi. I was I was scared, not because Rob's nothing but gracious, but I was scared that I would manage information if I just told Rob or just told my wife. And so I just was scared. And I just I had this little formula in my head of I want to share one hundred percent of my junk because I want 100 percent freedom. And I knew 99 percent confession would bring me 0 percent freedom. And so I want to tell the whole story and I don't want my wife's tears or Rob's tears or Rob's anger or my wife's anger to halt anything in me. And so I send a text to my community to go and I got to lay my life down. I gotta confess and will y'all meet me? And so I met literally we got off the plane and I went straight to the church and told my community guys everything. I mean, everything. And then they were faithful to take me to my wife that afternoon. And we told her everything. And then we went to Rob later that night and laid out just my sin and all of its ugliness. [00:18:51][223.8]

Henry Kaestner: [00:18:53] Wow. That's amazing, obviously. And I'm sitting here just being so grateful that you would share that with us. You said something in there that was just incredibly profound, about 100 percent, the 99 percent and laying it all out. I think since we all have sinned, everybody on this podcast, everybody listening to this has sinned. I think we all know about that. And it's the way you talk to us. It's just incredibly profound. That partial confession doesn't lead to the peace that you're looking for and that we all deserve and we all want. And it's great. I want to come back to Rob. Rob brings us back to the story. It's the next morning. You're going through it. You must have had just an incredible amount of competing emotions. Here's a guy that you've known and you trust and you've loved and presumably a good amount of joy in working with. And you're probably feeling betrayal and loss and sadness about all of this. And just walk us through what that was like and what happened next. [00:19:50][57.2]

Rob Thomas: [00:19:51] Yeah, I have to mention, you know, the night that Jeff confessed, he said something at the end that was kind of the linchpin for the next several months, and he basically said after he confessed, he said, I'm willing to do whatever I need to do and I'm going to abide by both of these communities to tell me what needs to happen next. And he truly meant it. [00:20:16][25.0]

[00:20:18] And so that I know now how much of a gift that is for someone to confess like that and to truly be repentant. The way Jeff was. So the next day, basically, I brought him back to my house and I told him, I need to let you go. And he knew that would happen. And I said, I. And I also need to figure out what else I need to do. And I'm not quite sure yet. But what we ended up doing next was we had to go back to work again. We're in our new building. People hadn't seen us for over a week. We've been out of town. And so the day I go back, you know, I know that Jeff's gonna come up there as well. But Jeff is not coming up there but to tell people, basically, hey, I need you know, this is my last day. And so when we got back the next day, we have a fun group. I mean, and they're kind and they're excited. And so we met in our theater. We have a theater in our office and they're excited to hear about our trip. They're excited to hear what's next. And then we go in there and they're cheering and they're going on. And I just remember it was the most surreal thing. And Jeff would agree with that, because I knew this is not a time of celebration. We're about to talk about something harder than we've ever talked about. And so basically, Jeff confessed to the company, the whole team. He told him this is what's happened and this is my last day. And so, Jeff, he packed up and he was gone that day. And after that, really, it took me meeting with community at my church. It took me meeting with some strategic business leaders, my dad. People here at the company. I had all kinds of people that I had to bring in to go. What? And how do I handle this? Because I wasn't sure what to do next. And so we ended up requiring about three things for Jeff. And that was we required Jeff. Hey, we don't know what was taken. And so we need to find out. And so we asked him to do an audit, which was a very hard thing to ask, because seven years worth of him being able to take money here, there. He didn't leave a paper trail on purpose. And so that was a big ask to say we need to figure out what has been taken, what stolen. And so we asked him to do it, a self audit. We told him we're also going to do an audit and then we're gonna have you pay us back every dime. And so those were the three things. And Jeff, of course, said, of course, I'm willing to do whatever I need to do. And he turned in a 70 page audit. By this time, it was closer to May, I believe some months had gone by. So by the time he was done, it was a 70 page audit that he turned in. And he basically divided things up into categories. Like for sure, I took this. This is questionable, but I think this is what it is. And then I think the third category was, hey, this is stuff I did without your knowledge, but you probably would have approved it. But anyway, I'm still gonna put it in that camp. So Jeff did a phenomenal job and it did come out to be a decent sized six figure number. Then we had a discussion and said, hey, Jeff, we need this to be paid back. And so that when it comes to the whole year, 2015, I only saw Jeff three times in 2015. And that was for these meetings that we would have with this group that we would get together to talk about what needs to happen. And, you know, the coolest thing that happened was by the end of the year, by the end of 2015, Jeff had basically made his final payment. He paid it off early. He paid it off aggressively. And we were blown away by that, that he would take the time and he would sacrifice things in his life to be able to pay it back that fast. [00:23:40][202.4]

Rusty Rueff: [00:23:42] So, Jeff, let's roll back to there you are. You're talking to Rob. You've confessed this to your wife and to Rob and it's all off of your chest. What did you think was going to happen next? What did you think Rob was going to do, what did you think your wife was going to do? And then how did you process from there until you found what Rob was going to do? [00:24:08][26.8]

Jeff Parker: [00:24:10] Yeah. You know, this much I knew. I've watched Rob for a long time and I've watched my wife for a long time who you know, she's not on this podcast. Her story is encouraging as well. But I knew this much. I knew I was in the best hands possible from man's perspective in terms of. I'd seen their faith lived out. I didn't know what that would mean. I didn't fully know what the right thing to do was. I just trusted their wisdom and I trusted the collective wisdom of the people that were surrounding us. And, you know, it's interesting, I tell this part of the story, just because it was such a moment for me. But, you know, I confessed on January 19th of two thousand and fifteen. That's nineteen hundred days ago to the dot. And as Rob said, I went before the company on January 20th and then I had nowhere to go. Right. As somebody whose identity was in their job and in their performance, I had nowhere to go. And so I woke up early on January 21st. And I just was like, I think I'm ready to read God's word for the first time. And I didn't know even where to start. And I flipped open to the proverb of the day. I mean, I know that's what some people do. They turn to the proverb of the day. And so I turned to Proverbs 21 and literally reading my Bible for the first time in any meaningful way in seven years. [00:25:26][76.3]

[00:25:27] I get to Proverbs 21, verse 6, which says The acquisition of treasure by a deceitful tongue, by a lying tongue is the pursuit of death. And I just I mean, in that moment, right. Forty five seconds into reading my Bible and I just stopped and literally I was like, Lord, your word is living. It's active. That warning has been in front of my eyes all my days, if I would have read it. And so I just I'm in your hands. [00:25:56][29.1]

[00:25:56] I really did get to a place where I just trusted God. I trusted his people in particular, because I didn't trust his spirit in me. I mean, I didn't trust my ability to discern the spirit because I had clinched it for so long. And so I just was like, I don't have to trust other people right now because I don't hear accurately from the Lord. [00:26:16][20.0]

[00:26:17] And so all I'm going to do is going to devour God's word and I'm going to do what other people tell me to do. And so that's all I did. And I looked there were days that I felt like I got signals from the company that things were it was going to be great. Rob and I had maybe one of those interactions just was I think I came up March one time and it felt a little like the old days. We were watching a video that they were about to release. And it felt really encouraging. And I'd kind of put my hope in that first moment just going, well, maybe it's really going to get well here and it's not gonna be that big of a deal. And then it just was like, no over. Look, this is a big deal. [00:26:51][34.7]

[00:26:52] And as I came in to do the audit, it really began to sit with me just how devastating my sin was. You know, it just is hard to look in the mirror. And the audit was one of the most gracious things that ever happened to me as I had to look into the mirror of what my sin actually was. All the ways that it looked. [00:27:09][17.6]

[00:27:10] And I remember going home at the end of that week, and I had a 70 page audit literally printed out sitting in my passenger seat. And it was almost heavy enough to trigger like the airbag thing. And I'm sitting there and literally, again, just such a picture to me of me and God's words, living an active I kid you not. The next morning I'm sitting in Ezekiel thirty three. [00:27:32][21.3]

[00:27:33] And versus 15 and 16 is I'm literally sitting I'm staring at my sin right in this document, and it says that if the wicked man restores the pledge, if he pays back that which he has stolen, if he walks by my statutes which ensure life, he shall surely live, he shall not die. He has practiced justice and righteousness and he shall surely live. And I just remember in that moment going, Lord, help me to pay this back, helped me to just walk in this way, not because I'm trying to earn your salvation. I'm not trying to earn grace, but just because this is what Grace would have me do. And it just was a powerful moment for me to go. Man, what a provision that the company was willing to let me pay it back. They could have done a million other things to me that probably even could have been wisdom for all we know. But the grace Rob showed I wanted to honor and I wanted to live in a manner worthy of it. So I committed to pay the company back. [00:28:30][56.7]

Henry Kaestner: [00:28:31] Rob talked to us a little bit more about that time. There's probably some number of entrepreneurs that are listening to this and wondering why you didn't pursue legal action. And now it's a big amount of money. A lot of trust was violated. And there might also be entrepreneurs that are wondering if the thought crossed your mind to forgive him and just kind of just move on, say no. Don't do it anymore. Talk us through that kind of range, because presumably you got counsel on all different sides. And there must've been times you're like, oh, my goodness, why do I have to even struggle through this? And this is for me, this is amazing part now, which is okay, so that gets communicated. And now you're still doing some amount of life together. There's this audit that's going on. You're communicating about all this. Walk us through that. Rob, from your perspective, as you're going through all these different types of emotions. [00:29:21][50.2]

Rob Thomas: [00:29:23] Right. Yes. So like I said, I thought a lot of counsel from friends, from community, from business leaders, and I got a variety of counsel. Different people would say different things. And so even in the end, I wasn't sure quite what I what do I have to do? That was the first thing I wanted to get right. And the idea of pressing charges and getting police involved was one of an option that was not required. And so ultimately, we chose not to get the police involved out of mercy for Jeff because he confessed because of the humility in which he confessed. And because I felt our financial objectives could be satisfied without that. But I have to say, the betrayal, the hurt, that was a hard, hard year for me. And, you know, one of the things that God's really taught me is the relational betrayal was the true hurt, not the stolen money. It was the fact that I no longer had this friend in the way I had this friend before. And that was a really hard thing. I all the sin felt like I was leading the company by myself. And that's not to say that people didn't step up here because people did. But something was gone and I couldn't get it back. And I wanted it back. And man, I really, really grieved it. It felt like a fire went out. Imagine just being around a bonfire and someone just pours water all over it and it's just gone. The smoke is coming off of it. There's no more fire keeping us warm. That's what it felt like at the company for at least a year. And that was a truly hard thing for me. And, you know, I'm thankful for 1st corinthians 1:3 through 4, which is a comforting verse for me. God is the father of mercies and the God of all comfort who comforts us in all our affliction. And God really started to grow me. We know this to be true, but God uses our valleys more than he uses our mountaintop experiences. And God. God did that. He absolutely did that. And you know, James 1:2-4 has always been a favorite passage of mine. But the new living translation I really, really like and it says this when troubles of any kind come your way, consider it. And I love that phrase. Why don't you consider it an opportunity for great joy for you know, that when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow. So let it grow. And I felt like God was going to grow me in this area. In the biggest area, as you can imagine, was the area of forgiveness. [00:31:51][147.9]

[00:31:53] OK, so this idea of how do I move on? Because in some ways, I felt stuck. Like, if I hold on to this, if I hold onto unforgiveness, you know, the great quote, it's like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. So that's a dead end for me. You know, to hold on to bitterness towards Jeff. And not only that, as I really looked at more scripture about forgiveness. It is so clear what God wants us to do when it comes to forgiving others. Colossians 3, 12 and 13 put on then as God's Chosen One, Holy Beloved, Compassionate Hearts, Kindness, humility, meekness and patients bearing with one another and forgiving each other as the Lord has forgiven you. So you also must forgive. So I forgive because I've been forgiven. So forgiven people forgive people. And so it wasn't an option not to forgive him. But that definitely was the work of the Holy Spirit in my life, to go, hey, this is between me and God, I'm going to forgive him. And so my forgiveness for Jeff had everything to do with me and God. And little to do with Jeff and what he did. [00:32:57][64.3]

Rusty Rueff: [00:32:59] And Jeff, what did reconciliation look like for you at that moment? I mean, I got to think you have the entire range of emotions and expectations happening. You know, I mean, maybe he's never going to talk to me again. Maybe our wives will never talk to each other again. This path of reconciliation. What could you see at that point? [00:33:20][20.4]

Jeff Parker: [00:33:20] Yeah, I mean, I think the thing I was learning early on was every consequence that I experienced or that was happening in our relationship was something I just was like, Lord, will you help remind me that that's my doing and that that is a consequence for just not walking with you. [00:33:38][17.9]

[00:33:39] And so I've told Rob this multiple times, but trust me, if there's anyone listening that it's in a similar place with another employee, the best thing Rob ever did for me was to fire me and to make me pay the company back. I use the language, allow me to pay the company back in the sense of it was good for me to see all that. And I I didn't know what it would look like for Rob and me. I didn't know if even a moment like this would ever happen. But I knew that if I would just be obedient to the Lord, if I would deal with my sin as scripture calls me to deal with it, that there would be, you know, the fruit of the spirit could still accompany me. And so I knew that my job was not to get caught up in Rob's reactions or responses and look early on like I was you know, I had to remind myself that my hope is not in Rob's forgiveness. Right. Like there was a lot of that that I could have gone, hey, if Rob's OK with this man, that'll be awesome. And Rob was handling himself so well. But I just was like, I've got to do the hard work of owning my stuff. And so, you know, the other thing that Rob mentioned was I knew that, yes, the money thing was important to name the sin, to quantify the sin. [00:34:47][68.3]

[00:34:48] You know, it's one thing to go, hey, Rob, will you forgive me for stealing money? It's another thing to go, hey, Rob, will you forgive me for an exact dollar amount or thereabouts? But I also knew I had to do work on the relational side and to really think through all the ways up wounded him and his family and the company. And a lot of that goes well beyond the financial side. And so one of the things I did at my church was we have a ministry here called Regeneration that I just did, a year long, deep dove. And a couple of the steps are about just identifying how you hurt people. And so that was one of the things that I did. And so I knew that I wasn't going to rush it. I was good on Rob. You know, I was going to trust when it made sense for us to come back. But when the time was right, I wanted to be ready to look people in the eye and specifically, Rob and oh, not just the financial sin, but the relational sin, the betrayal of trust, the betrayal of fiduciary trust that the company gave me. All of those things. And I wanted to kind of look him in the face and be ready with appropriate remorse and repentance to own that stuff. And so it took I mean, both him and I, as we were separate, we were working on this diligently. But it was a year before we kind of sat down and really started to tackle some of that stuff. And he got to hear some of the work I had been doing on owning my junk. And I got to hear some of the work he had been doing on preparing his heart to grant forgiveness. [00:36:12][84.4]

Rusty Rueff: [00:36:13] So who took the first step? [00:36:14][0.9]

Rob Thomas: [00:36:16] Yeah, I think that I would say Jeff was kind of. He was waiting on me. And as he said, it was over a year before we truly got back together outside of the business things or the group meetings that we did. But we were ready by 2016, I believe is February 2016. You know, Stacy, Jeff and Haley and I got together at a restaurant called Cafe Brazil. And that's actually the first place we ever met him when we started our foundation group. That's where we met them and we decided to go back there. And Jeff basically went through, as he mentioned, he went through maybe five or six areas that he wanted to ask for forgiveness. And it was a very meaningful time because he didn't as he said, it's not just a hey, I'm sorry I did that. Forgive me. It was he thought through all the different ways that that affected my life in Haley's life, in the company's life. And he truly asked for forgiveness for all those things. [00:37:14][58.6]

[00:37:15] And really, guys, this idea of forgiveness. Yes. It was easy to forgive him that day. That didn't mean that there's reconciliation. And, you know, those two things are clearly separate. And we didn't know what reconciliation was going to be. Reconciliation could be, hey, we're reconciled. We just don't ever see each other again. But we're reconciled that we're not holding anything against each other. But we didn't know what that would look like. But that was the beginning, I would say, of reconciliation was February 2016, where he asked for forgiveness in a pretty profound way. And that was easy for me to give him because I had already done that in my heart. [00:37:51][35.6]

Jeff Parker: [00:37:52] And that one thing I'll add there, Rusty, was I knew that Rob had been doing the hard work. He was on the road of forgiveness, right? I mean, the first night I confessed to all that, I remember him just saying, hey, forgiveness is coming. [00:38:06][14.7]

[00:38:07] You know, I think he said something to that effect. But I also knew that my job wasn't to seek forgiveness that night. I needed to because we hadn't defined anything fully like he didn't know. And I didn't know the exact dollar amount either. That stuff's helpful if somebody is going to say, yeah, I forgive you. It's helpful to know exactly what they're saying. I forgive you for. And it's also more meaningful from my end to know what I need to be forgiven for. From an individual. So we both have to go on a journey to figure out what all that was. And so we were both taking steps all along the way to get to that place. I think Rob was being really faithful with his community guys to get there all along the way. I would say we were always in the process of me seeking forgiveness and him granting it. It just took a season for us to get to a place where that made sense. And then, yeah, I mean, what Rob's talking about on the reconciliation piece, that was what then began our ability to start moving towards what is a relationship together look like. We used to spend almost every day together and 2015 was obviously not that and I wasn't working at the company 2016. And so we'd spent a little bit of time and kind of figuring out what is the relationship going to look like going forward. [00:39:21][74.3]

Rob Thomas: [00:39:22] And I would say, practically speaking, we decided, hey, let's get together. Let's be really intentional and let's just get together every now and then and get a coffee or get lunch. That was kind of where we were and said, hey, that's good enough and let's just do that. But ultimately, what happens is there's a freedom that comes after forgiveness. And when reconciliation is happening, there's such a freedom. And practically speaking, this is what it looks like to me. I can pass him at church functions and it's not awkward. I can root for him when I see him on stage somewhere or I see, you know, maybe something is posted on social media about him or his family. And I'm great with that. You know, we can have lunch, we can get coffee. I actually care about what's going on with his family. And this is one of the biggest ones for Jeff and I is we can laugh again because we couldn't laugh together for a long time. And you have to understand, Jeff and I laughed way too much in our relationship. I mean, we love to be goofy. We laughed a ton. And for over a year, we really couldn't laugh. And to be at a place where we can do that again, that's a big gift. [00:40:27][64.8]

Henry Kaestner: [00:40:29] So forgiveness happened. And you guys are here today. So obviously there's been some level of reconciliation. You guys are laughing together again and which I think is awesome. I wonder, though, as you guys have continued a progressive relationship, was there ever a time that you guys thought about working together again? [00:40:43][13.6]

Rob Thomas: [00:40:44] Yeah, yeah. You know, absolutely, I mean, that's one of those questions that we would ask, like, could we ever work together again? Could I ever work with Jeff again? And, you know, there were times probably where I would jump to that thought and go, oh, I want to work with Jeff again. And there were times where I go. No, I'm glad we didn't, because that was too soon. But ultimately, I'm always drawn to work with Jeff because I know how well I can work with him. But I think we both feel a freedom to be able to work together at some point. We haven't gotten to experience that yet, but we've actually talked about that. I don't know, four or five times just in different capacities. And so that's actually a big deal that we can even say that. And Jeff and I have even talked. I don't know that Jeff would ever if he ever, for instance, worked here again, he may not be in the financial position. You know, it's possible that due to what's happened, it would be inappropriate for a potential certain role to not work anymore or to be the appropriate role. But there are so many roles Jeff could play. [00:41:45][60.8]

Rusty Rueff: [00:41:47] Rob, I'll say this. You and Jeff are working together just by the two of you doing what you're doing here with us today. For our listeners, you're working on behalf of the kingdom because the story that you're telling about forgiveness and reconciliation is a powerful story that, you know, without you telling it. I think there's lots of entrepreneurs and co-founders that may never feel or hear something like this again. So thank you for working on behalf of the kingdom together. Jeff, I want to switch back and pick back up quickly. Where did all this take you vocationally? And then if you could frame up for us to start and maybe Rob comes back, you know, is there a model here? I mean, a construct or something that we can carry forward, our listeners can take forward to say or we may go through something where there is either portrayal or a brokenness in a relationship or a down with a partner, that there is a path back. [00:42:48][60.5]

Jeff Parker: [00:42:49] Yeah, all that's so good. You know, the thing that a reference to a little bit when I was sharing my story, I said back out in 2015, I just was like, I had no idea if I would ever be of value to anybody ever again. I really did. And I just it was like, man, this is such a significant sin. I don't know if this permanently disqualifies me or what. [00:43:08][19.4]

[00:43:10] I just knew that I wanted to work on my character. I wanted to allow Christ to work on my character in such a way that if he chose to elevate me to any role that I'd be ready for it. It wouldn't matter the role. [00:43:20][10.2]

[00:43:21] I said that back in my story had stopped pursuing Christ in such a way that when the storms came and the floods came kind of as Matthew 7 type words, in my instance, it was success. It was the company's growing and I wasn't ready for it because my foundation wasn't secure. I wanted to get my foundation secure again. So whether it's success or whether it's pandemics or whether it's who knows what it comes, I'm ready for it. And really what I've been doing the last five years is continuing to just run to Christ, dwell richly in his word, and to run to him in any kind of struggle that I have. And I live ruthlessly in the light. I mean, I just am ruthless about not holding on to anything that is currently going on. One of the things I love to do it, I confess at the seed level now to make sure that it doesn't grow up to be, you know, just something really devastating again. And so as I continued to do that over a period of time, when I got done in 2015, people were like, hey, why don't you you need to be a leader in this ministry. And I was like, that's crazy. But sure, I'll come lead. And all I kept doing was leading from brokenness. I kept leading from a place of being authentic. Again, this is new for me. I haven't done this for most of my life. And then about halfway through that journey, the church calls and says, hey, Jeff why don't you come work for us. And I remember going, y'all are crazy. Why would you want to hire me? You know what I've done? And the response was, yeah, we know what you've done and we've seen the repentance that's accompanied that. And so we think you've got moral authority to help guide other people in shepherding them. And look, this comes down to and it's been one of my great joys over the last few years is to help anybody in any moment, whether it's a marriage, a business or anything, to just what does it look like to bear the fruits of repentance. That phrase is talked a lot about in scripture. You turn to Matthew three or Acts twenty six. What does it look like to be repentant and to pursue Christ in kind of everything? And how does that affect all aspects of this? How does it make you a better business person that doesn't make you a better entreprenuer husband or spouse or any of those things? And so that's been my great joy of just continuing to speak from my place of brokenness, use my story to kind of level the playing field and then just trust God with it moving forward. [00:45:38][137.8]

Henry Kaestner: [00:45:39] Amazing story. Amazing story. I can't get over it. So. New position you have with the ministry. Talk to us about a framework. What advice, counsel, would you have for business partners that are going through conflict together because they're going to be something and have something very similar. This betraying another partner's trust is not a new concept. But there are other conflicts that partners might have together and different things that you've seen come about because of your ministry that you've been exposed to. What counsel would you have for people in business, particularly those who are close together, like business partners, as you guys were? What's a framework to go through this together? You clearly laid it out in your story to lots to follow from there. What about that you think is applicable in all situations? What would you do differently or generally how do you accounts for entrepeneurs partners that are going through conflict? [00:46:29][49.1]

Jeff Parker: [00:46:30] You know, one of the phrases I would just put in our vocabulary is conflict is a constant opportunity. Right. I think God's glorified when we preserve the unity of the spirit or the unity of a company. [00:46:40][10.6]

[00:46:41] And so to view that as an opportunity to go, hey, if I'm going to draw the circle around myself and own 100 percent of what's in that circle, what does that look like for me to do? And irrespective of what the other person does, I don't come with expectations. Right. The right thing for me to do with Rob was to own my sin. He could tell me to get lost and shut up, and I'd never want to see you again. But my responsibility was to go own my sin regardless of how Rob responded. That's obviously not how Rob responded. But that's still my responsibility. And so, you know, if there's partners here, you have always have a responsibility to own your piece of the junk that your cause, whether it's big or small. Rob and I were even talking about this beforehand. Sometimes it's the smaller stuff that is more hidden that it's almost easier to kind of let it almost be that dainty morsel that starts to produce poison, as Rob was referring to. And then let me just say this, and Rob may want to jump in here to the person that's stuck in sin or an entreprenuer that's dabbling in something that they know they shouldn't. Or maybe they feel like where I was. They feel like they're too far gone. I just really want to just push in and go, man, if you've got breath in your lungs, you're not irredeemable. Your sin is not have to be what defines you. And so get it in the light. Confess one hundred percent of it. And if even if it's because you've wounded your business partner, confess it and trust God. The last little thing I'll say is, you know, early on I was so scared to confess because I loved Rob and I didn't want him to deal with my junk. [00:48:16][94.9]

[00:48:17] And literally, it was as if I was doing God a favor by managing my sin on his behalf. God was big enough to handle the consequences of my sin with Rob. And I wasn't doing him any favors by managing that information, if anything, I was only producing more pain in my life and ultimately more pain. It made the bomb all the more bigger in Rob's life. I wasn't doing him any favors by withholding information from him. So trust God is big enough to handle your junk, even for your spouse or your business partner. [00:48:51][33.7]

Rob Thomas: [00:48:53] Yeah, if I could just add the other side of that, our story. Jeff and I, we have a story that's equal parts, confession and forgiveness. And as Jeff said, God has called us to fully confess and he's also called us to fully forgive. [00:49:09][15.8]

[00:49:10] And there is a prison sentence when it feels like chains, when you don't. And Jeff knows that feeling. That's where he was. And I know what it feels like when I don't when I'm not willing to forgive. Ultimately, God calls us to both of these things because he loves us and he knows what's best for us. And I feel that not even that there's a study that says forgiveness is associated with lower heart rates and blood pressure as well as stress relief. It's like physically good for you to forgive. And so I feel God has been so gracious in my life. And I did say that earlier. Jeff and I were talking the thing that I find myself more dealing with these days is, am I able to forgive those little things that happened in my life? The little things like that's where I feel like I can be attacked a little bit in that. And so it's the tiny things. I go, God, please help me in this little moment not to hold that against that person. And then that last thing I'll say about Jeff is Jeff really modeled confession for me. And there have been things in my life since this thing happened where I needed to ask forgiveness. And there was one in particular where I offended my wife in a big way, and she did not know it yet. And I had a choice to confess fully or not. And honestly, I thought about Jeff and I thought about what he went through, the pain of not confessing and men. I texted my wife within 10 minutes and said, we've got to talk. And I confessed fully. And so there's freedom in that. [00:50:42][92.4]

Henry Kaestner: [00:50:43] I love that concept again, of kind of confessing fully. Maybe my biggest takeaway from our conversation today is not 99 percent, but 100 percent so, so big, Jeff. I think a lot of times that we look at the parable of the talents in a financial sense. It clearly has application there. But I often wonder if we're missing the opportunity to see talents as experiences. God has certainly giving you an experience, a story of how God has brought you through. How do you feel called the store, that story. How has that helped you and what you're doing today at the church? [00:51:16][32.5]

Jeff Parker: [00:51:17] It's funny you ask that question because I've probably told my story. I'm not kidding. Probably close to a thousand times at this point. A lot of times, one on one over a coffee with a friend or even now right in ministry. [00:51:30][13.5]

[00:51:30] I've been in ministry for three and half years and people are so prone to, you know, like put me on a pedestal and I'm just like, no, you need to understand something. And it's weird. Every time there's a part of me that's like, you don't tell them that. Don't tell them the story I just shared with who knows how many people on a podcast. Right. Don't disappoint them. And yet it's the thing that God uses all the most to tether my hearts towards other people. And it's still a way that he's used me the most. And it's such a good point because I feel there's a stewardship I have with the story. There's part of me that in my flesh, I don't want to tell my story. I don't want to disappoint people and tell them what I did. But if I steward that story appropriately, Christ gets the glory. Forgiveness and its importance and how Rob modeled that gets a spotlight shown on it in the idea that Christ can redeem and resurrect and restore also becomes more tangible for other people. And so I absolutely feel like it's one of those talents, so to speak, that I can not stop stewarding. I think I will have to talk about this for the rest of my life. And I think the way I put it is every time I tell the story, it's such a gift to me to be reminded of how Christ showed up. Right. And the reason I count my days for nineteen hundred days is not because that's my sobriety date. It's just because it's for 19 hundred days. I've tried to live according to God's ways. I haven't done it perfectly, but he's proven himself faithful all nineteen hundred days. [00:53:04][93.5]

[00:53:04] And every time I tell my story I remind myself of the day count. And I just have seen God show up a million times during that. And so it always ends up being the biggest gift to me when I stay humble and continue to confess my stuff to other people. [00:53:17][12.9]

Rusty Rueff: [00:53:19] And a huge gift to us. So thank you. You know, we've done. I don't know what it is now One hundred and ten episodes. A lot of podcasts and we think they're all good. But every now and then, you know, one breaks through and moves beyond just words. But, you know, we can feel the spirit. And I know I certainly felt God speaking to the both of you today. And to that point, as we close, we want to hear from you. What is God saying from both of you in this moment today? What are you reading in his word? What's being revealed to you that you can share with us? [00:53:53][34.3]

Rob Thomas: [00:53:54] Yeah, I'll go. I was just with my Bible study group this morning. And Second Corinthians 4:18 says so. We don't look at the troubles we can see now. Rather, we fix our gaze on things that cannot be seen for the things we see now will soon be gone. But the things we cannot see will last forever. And so just this idea for me of looking towards the Turnell and not the temporary is something that is really impacting my life now. And it's when I look to God that everything fits for me. And I just want to say also that it's amazing what God's done. Our company is in a very healthy place today. God brought people to the company that I didn't expect that are here now that weren't there. I feel like we've been taken care of. I have a great relationship with Jeff. It's so easy for Jeff and I to get together and hang out until laugh. And that's the work of God. There's no other way to describe it. [00:54:55][60.8]

Jeff Parker: [00:54:56] And that's always a dangerous question for me these days, because I'd feel like God's just showing me a lot. I've been reading Jeremiah of late. And, you know, look, I'm not without struggle any longer. And Justin knows some of this as I've talked to him. But, you know, there's still a temptation for me to fall in love with ministry. Ministry can become my new idol. And the reason why Jeremiah has been so encouraging to me is that brother was faithful for 40 years in the ministry and he watched his country just fall. No one listened to him, but he did what he was supposed to do, which was to speak all the words of God and just talked about it. Jeremiah's 26 is where I was recently, which was thus, says the Lord. You stand in the court of the Lord's House and speak to everyone. And then at that verse ends with. Do not hold back a word. Anin my jobs to be faithful and not to build a platform, not to build a certain quantity of followers in that little passage in Jeremiah ends in verse 14. It just, you know, Jeremiah. They were pursuing him and he just says, y'all do with me is what seems good and right to you. But as for me, I'm going to speak to you all the truth that I'm supposed to do. And so, you know, there's a lot of times even going back to every time I share my story. I just know I'm supposed to steward these words and I leave the results to the Lord. And, you know, for me, the temptation is always to go check out people. You know, even what Rob's talking about earlier are people celebrating me on social media or this or that. I'm just going. That stuff needs to die in me. It died in Jeremiah. So God's been doing a good work in me to just go, your job is to be faithful. What happens around you? That's up to me. And so God's been using Jeremiah the whole book to just encourage my heart with that truth.