Last year, on a single porn site alone, people watched 4.6 billion hours worth of pornographic videos. That’s around 5,000 centuries worth of time.

Clearly, sexual Brokenness is a problem. But that’s not new. What is new is how Jay Stringer, author of Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing, is helping us understand this subject. Instead of looking for new techniques of “lust management,” Jay is working to encourage people to address their sexual brokenness and the core issues surrounding it.

Jay has found that facing what is difficult in our own lives helps us move down the path of healing. And if you’re an entrepreneur who wants to better handle difficulties in your professional life, you have to deal with the difficulties in your personal life. Even if sexual brokenness doesn’t sound like a primary struggle for you, the statistics Jay shares will make it clear that if you have more than one employee, odds are you know someone who is dealing with this issue. And that’s why we wanted to talk about this.

We hope this conversation helps you open the door to address the things you’re struggling with, and also to have conversations with those around you. We are firm believers that, as Jay says, “When God sees us, He moves in toward human brokenness, He doesn’t remove Himself from it.” 

We want to be people who do the same. Thanks for listening and for being on this journey with us.

Useful Links:

Jay Stringer’s Personal Website

Confronting Unwanted Sexual Behavior: The Spiritually Healthy Leader

The Heart of Man Journey

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry [00:02:48] Welcome, Jay Stringer. Thank you very much for joining us.

Jay [00:02:51] Thank you so much for having me on the show. What a delight to be here.

Henry [00:02:55] Well, this is an informal conversation. So give us first a flyover. Who are you? Where do you come from? How’d you get into this? How do you decide to write a book? Give us some foundation and background, please.

Jay [00:03:06] Sure. So I am a licensed mental health counselor here in Washington State and also an ordained minister. And so when I went to seminary, I originally came out to be a pastor and quickly realized that there is a lot in my own life that needed to be addressed. And so just the tendency, especially as Christian leaders, is to try to present this kind of rosy picture to the world.

[00:03:33] And part of what my seminary asked me to engage was just a lot of my own hiding and a lot of my own story that was actually informing some of the decisions that I made. So there’s this adage where I went to school that says that you can take no one further than you have been yourself and quickly realize that there is a lot of just kind of shame and heartache in my life that had never been addressed. And so when I started turning to face some of those things, just kind of recognizing that that was where I found a lot of the comfort and goodness of God show up in my life. And so I decided very quickly to do the counseling track and the MDL track at my seminary.

Henry [00:04:16] Tell us about this passion of yours is coming out of a place in your story as you were challenged and saw an opportunity through counseling and no one coming to understand your own motivations and some of the things that maybe you had struggled with in the past. Help us all understand kind of the size and scope of the issue. Frame it up for us. How prevalent and pervasive are things like pornography and sexual brokenness? Give us an overview.

Jay [00:04:41] So when I talk about sexual brokenness or unwanted sexual behavior, that could be the use of pornography, that could be infidelity, that could be buying sex hookups and the size and scope of it is massive. One of the things that we know is pornography use is now one of the best metrics of cultural attention that we have. So if you want to know what people are doing at any given moment in time, you can actually check porn rates across the country. So one example of this was during the twenty seventeen NBA finals between the Cavs and the Golden State Warriors, porn was down about negative 6 percent in the Cleveland area.

[00:05:18] And then after it became really apparent that Cleveland was going to lose Game 5 and then therefore the whole NBA finals porn use goes up about 34 percent in the Cleveland area. So you can actually track what people are doing with their disappointment, with their boredom just on porn rates. We also know that about 57 percent of our pastors, 64 percent of our youth pastors are using or have used porn. And we know that porn use doubles the rates of divorce. About a third of all marriages in this country will be impacted by infidelity. So it is a dangerously ubiquitous area that, as you talked about so well, we don’t often talk about as Christians. And then when we do talk about it, we don’t talk about it well at all.

Henry [00:06:04] So on that decisons, guy, I heard that more people watch porn than their Netflix, Amazon and Hulu combined. Is that just urban myth or is it at least directionally accurate?

Jay [00:06:14] No, that’s what I have read as well. So just to give you a size and scope of this, on one porn site alone, just one site, the world last year watched 4.6 billion hours of porn on one Web site. So that’s equal to about 5000 century’s worth just in one year alone. So it is absolutely astounding to see the statistics around pornography these days.

Henry [00:06:38] So we’ve heard, of course, that pornography is a problem. We’ve heard about in our churches some of the challenges for us as entrepreneurs are obvious. We’re going to tell you about some of those that are obvious and some that are less obvious. But tell us about what’s been going on in. Until we’ve been talking about it for maybe the last 10 or 15 years. But it doesn’t really seem like we’ve really stemmed the problem. It’s still there. It’s as pervasive as ever. Why is what we’re doing through our churches and maybe through traditional counseling? Why is it not working?

Jay [00:07:10] So what I would say is that the primary Christian approach to addressing sexual brokenness has been through the lens of lust, management and you all. I mean, just know the story all too well. That could be slapping a rubber band around your wrists when you’re having a sexual thought, trying to bounce your eyes, dart your eyes from someone that’s attractive. We’ve encouraged people to get accountability, software, some type of surveillance on their computers. That gives an alert to people. Your accountability partner that you’re struggling. And yet, as one of my friends said to me recently, Sanjay, when I’ve been having the same conversation with my accountability partner for fifteen years and trying to bounce my eyes from one type of pornography preference, something isn’t working. And so that’s what I think we have to really begin to step into, is that this less management approach does not lead us to the freedom that we desire and deserve. And I think one of the reasons why is that if you think about sexual brokenness is like a river, let’s say, no different than the Mississippi River.

[00:08:13] If you are only trying to address sexual brokenness by trying to stop or stem lust, basically all you’ve tried to do is try and stop maybe one of the primary tributaries, which is the Arkansas or the Ohio. But as we all know, there’s so many different tributaries that make up the Mississippi, the Missouri being the biggest. And so if we are only trying to manage our lust and try and address lust, that’s only one of many possible tributaries to sexual brokenness. So especially as men. One of the reasons why pornography is so appealing to us is that it gives us the sense of power and nowhere else in the entire world. Can I get exactly what I want when I want it. And so if I’m only trying to bounce my eyes from attractive people, but I don’t have an ability to see actually pornography is such a drug to me because nowhere else in my life. Am I able to get what I want when I want to. We’re going to keep sabotaging. So that was part of what I realized is that unless we radically change this conversation, we’re going to continue to consign marriages and individuals to a lifetime of futility with this issue. And so that’s why I wanted to do the research, is to say if we could just understand someone’s whole story, not just the story of their sexual brokenness, then we could get insights from the data that we could then return back to people that were struggling. And that’s exactly what we found, is that sexual brokenness, even the specifics of what we search for on the Internet are not random at all.

[00:09:46] They were a direct reflection of the parts of our life that have known a lot of pain, that have known a lot of misery. And so the implication is really huge. It’s that if we study our sexual brokenness, we can actually learn so much about how to find healing.

William [00:10:04] That’s interesting. I mean, as you lay that out, I’ve heard you say before, I mean, it’s it’s fascinating. You know, your research, you talked about how specific types of fantasies are, what not traced back to family of origin issues and problems that you’ve had in your life. And so as you did your research, as you think through, I mean, I see some version of, you know, not running from the past, but sort of digging into it a little bit. But that’s pretty scary concept. I mean, people now feel like that idea. Expound upon that a little bit.

Jay [00:10:32] Yeah. So, I mean, I think central to what I see happening throughout the scriptures is that the God of the universe is curious about who we are. And when God sees us, God moves into human brokenness. He doesn’t remove himself from it. And so if we are to expect the arrival of God, we should expect that in the places of struggle, in the places of brokenness. And so one of the things that I encourage people to do is to be really curious about the patterns of their sexual brokenness that they’ve been struggling with. So the kind of metaphor that I uses to think about your sexual arousal, your sexual fantasy life as a type of house. And so to play with that, you know, it’s late in the evening and you hear this familiar knock of lust on your door. What are you going to do? Some people try and put up surveillance over their house to just never have lust come to their door. Some people might call a friend for backup. Some people might try and shoot the intruder or some people just let the less come in and let it ransacked their house. What I’m trying to invite people into is what if you went out onto the front porch and you said, what is it about this pornography preference? This type of sexual fantasy that has been so appealing to me since the time I was 12 years old, 15 years old. And to really. Begin to study and listen to our lust and what the research showed is that, for example, like if you were a man who wanted to see college students, teenagers, a race that suggested to you a type of subservience, you tended to have three things going on in your life story. One was that you came from a very strict father. Second was that you were dealing with a lot of lack of purpose in your professional life. And three, you had high levels of shame. And so part of what we need to do is to connect the dots between how is my sexual fantasy, how is my sexual brokenness actually telling a story about what I need to heal. And so in that example that I just provided, if I’m a man who has been powered over by my dad, if I have experienced a lot of futility in my work life trying to take risks but never, never seeing the fruit, that’s going to bring a lot of anger and a lot of disappointment in my life. And that has to go somewhere. And so if we aren’t turning to face a lot of our heartache, a lot of our pain and a lot of our frustration, we will take that to the world of pornography, to the world of infidelity, rather than turning towards and facing and confronting our pain. And so I think that’s the approach is I know it’s scary. It’s counterintuitive to kind of say, what do I fantasize about and actually talk about it. But I think that that’s what my clients always experience with regard to healing, is that the keys to the freedom that they seek are really embedded in the unwanted behavior itself.

Henry [00:13:32] So part of that sounds obvious, but part of that is because he has so much stigma associated with it, maybe the fact that some of that’s it. And by that I mean if we just pay attention to some of the unwanted activities without it understanding and attacking the underlying cause, whether it’s trauma or background or family situation, we’re not can really solve it. We’re going to be, as you’d said, going back to our accountability partner in year 16. And I saw this problem. Right. So you said let’s find the root causes. Talk about that. And that kind of comes into not just sexual brokenness, but any type of relational brokenness we have. And how important is that we as entrepreneurs are able to be able to come to terms with some of the issues in our past and then be able to bring our whole selves to the workplace and to our leadership because 80 percent of businesses fail. And so you don’t want to be bringing 80 percent of yourself well adjusted if you’re 80 percent well. You know, you need a hundred percent while just you want to be all that. Not just because you and your venture to succeed, but you also want to be able to be a role model. And we talk a lot about the shadow of a leader on this podcast. It’s a big theme for our co-host. Rusty, talk to us about. Well, I guess two two things here. One is tangibly give us the entrepreneur a couple of different things that they can do to heal themselves first. And then the second thing I want you to riff on is understanding that the shadow of a leader is far once we model our own recovery. How do we go ahead and enable and empower those we work with? Because we must understand that some number, if we have more than one employee, the odds are they’ve got a problem with sexual brokenness and let our motivation be because we care about them, that we want to help them to be in a spot where they can heal that brokenness. But pragmatically, we also want our employees to be well-adjusted and to be able to be productive. So what does the entrepreneur do and then how does the entrepreneur help his employees?

Jay [00:15:33] So, I mean, I think the first thing that we have to do is that counterintuitive decision to turn and face the thing that we’re struggling with that you just mentioned. So one example of this is I had tried to bike to downtown Seattle to get into work for basically all of last summer, and that was going well, June, July, August. And then at the end of August, I was at a stoplight in downtown Seattle and fell off my bike and my left leg got gashed up, blood kind of everywhere. Pedestrians coming up asking like to hear you, OK, what’s going on here? And what I realized actually a couple months later was that the greater damage that I had experienced was not to my leg, but to my left hand. And so here I am many, many months later in my left hand still hurts. And part of what that is trying to invite me into is the process of healing. But I would rather take a gin and tonic. I would rather avoid the pain. I would rather just keep going, keep pressing on, rather than go back to the origins of where that pain started and how to heal it. And so I think part of the challenge with entrepreneurs is that, as you said, 80 percent failure rate even when you become an executive. Most executives fail the first year of leadership. And so that. To just keep going, keep pressing forward, ignore the pain. Numb the pain and then continue into your sexual brokenness, just doesn’t work. And so I think at some point we have to begin to turn and face our anxiety, turn and face our brokenness in what happens. And that is that we actually grow a lot of strength and a lot of courage in facing what is really difficult, because if you can turn and face what’s really difficult in your own life, you’ll actually be able to turn and face things that are really difficult in the company that you’re trying to build as well. And so I think especially as entrepreneurs, we need to recognize that our own healing, our own turning to face difficult things and seeing the beauty of who we are is actually a muscle that prepares us to lead organizations with so much more strength and dignity. So I think. Turn and face. It would be the first thing. And then the second thing is just to kind of understand something of the nature of addiction is that there is often a seesaw back and forth between depravation and then Titelman. So if you can just kind of imagine two boys on a seesaw, one boy, let’s call him entitlement, one boy, let’s call him deprivation. Most of us as entrepreneurs live with a lot of deprivation. Right. One of my doctor clients told me that residency is an abusive environment with a promise that you’re going to be wealthy and powerful. And so part of, I think, the entrepreneur journey as well as like, you know, there might be funding, there might not be funding. You’re working a lot of hours and not seeing a lot of fruit initially. You’re ignoring different friendships just because you realize the gravity of what you have to pull off. So lots of deprivation. But then what ends up happening is that once you have, you know, a Sunday off of work or you have a span in life where you actually have a little free time, what’s going to swing back is that sense of entitlement. You know, I’m just going to drink. I’m going to have sex. I’m going to look at porn, because in some ways I just deserve this. And so I think part of as an entrepreneur with employees, you have to kind of begin to ask yourself what type of company culture and my creating here am I asking people to just live lives of deprivation, which is going to set them up for entitlement?

Henry [00:19:12] Before you get there? I think that’s really important. And I asked you to go there, but I think you’re touching on something that tell me if I’m wrong. But I think you’re almost suggesting that there’s certain attributes of being an entrepreneur that might make them even more vulnerable and susceptible to the challenges of sexual brokenness. And you talked about entitlement. I’d imagine that power factors into that loneliness riff on that a little bit more before actually you go to where actually Ash goes, which is the employee part.

Jay [00:19:42] So, so many entrepreneurs at least that I work with have lives of maybe they’ve known some trauma. Maybe they were kind of the odd nerd. They never quite fit in. And in the midst of that, they kind of learned how to make life work on their own. Some of them didn’t have great parents that invested in them. And so part of what they learned was I can get through life if I just kind of do it on my own. Right. And so as an entrepreneur, you’re learning how to maneuver through work, through business, through relationships, largely on your own success and largely on your own abilities. But then once you get to the top, once you actually start needing people, you don’t have the relational networks built in. And so the only thing that you’ve known how to survive through is to lean on alcohol, to lean on pornography, to lean on something. And so I think that that’s part of what we have to recognize, is that so much of what the story that got us to where we are is something to be celebrated. But at the same time, it’s really not sustainable for us to keep going at that same rate in the same way without relationships, without people that care deeply for us.

Henry [00:20:54] Let me suggest something. And I’m clearly not the expert, but I read something which makes me the expert, of course. But I read an article and then I listen to part of a podcast that was with a general manager of the Kansas City Royals. And he does and has been a little bit a lightning rod on this. But he does pornography training for those coming through the Kansas City Royals farm class. And one of the things that I thought was compelling about it was that he acknowledges that this is an issue. He’s not going to his people in his farm team and saying, I really think you need to take care of yourself mentally and emotionally. I really think you need to go through counseling. He’s saying, look, let’s call it what it is. Pornography is a rampant problem. And if I get five guys in this room, they’re on my pitching staff for 30, of course, the entire team. The majority of you guys are suffering with promises of pornography. And it’s going to destroy your lives. It’s definitely going to make you a worse baseball player. And so we’re going to take it. And when it just acknowledge that it’s a problem. First off, is that helpful in a work setting?

Jay [00:21:54] It is. Yep. I mean, we can’t heal what we don’t first acknowledge. And so any encouragement to begin to name this is what’s true of our marriages. This is what’s true of every one of us in this room. We have a lot of harm that we have survived and we need to begin to heal if we’re going to become whole people. So love that.

Henry [00:22:16] Once they do that, though, you call it out. Is there a Web site? Is there a like an off the shelf program? Is there. What are those things that somebody might be able to go ahead and implement beyond general counseling?

Jay [00:22:29] Yeah. So one of the things that my team has been really committed to building is just recognizing that there are not a lot of great resources out there for people who are struggling outside of less management. And so on my Web site, J a Y desk stringer, dot com slash u_s_b_, there is a unwanted sexual behavior self-assessment. And so it’s about one hundred and sixty questions that everyone can take.

[00:22:55] And after you complete that assessment, it’s going to give you about a 40 page report that kind of says these are the key drivers in your story that are influencing your involvement in unwanted sexual behavior. Because a lot of times we just think of it as this random struggle that we just are uniquely broken and that’s why we struggle. But what the research showed that I did is that these things are actually not random at all. And so if we want to find healing, we have to identify and transform the key drivers of it. And so this report will really tell you here’s some of the wounds from your past. And here’s some of the difficulties that you’re facing in your present day life, whether that’s a lack of purpose, anxiety, the way that people metabolize their own shame. So that’s a very practical resource. I would say my book is also a really good thing to begin to read and to get into conversation about it.

William [00:23:48] I want to shift gears slightly. I think, you know, we’re three men on a podcast talking about this topic. And I think a lot of times when I hear this from churches or everywhere, you know, it is directed at men. And I think that’s an obvious big part of the problem with a lot of women listeners as well. And I’ve read enough research to know that it’s a problem across genders as well. And I would love for you maybe dig in a little bit for our entrepreneurial men and women, what what may be or some contrast points that people struggle with in their past and sort of as they can listen to a podcast and start thinking of themselves, sort of taking in the knowledge that you’ve put out there for us.

Jay [00:24:24] Sure. So it’s really important to underscore that about a third of all pornography users are now women. So that’s one of those things that we don’t talk about very much. But over very, very real reality these days is that women are struggling in the shadows with unwanted sexual behavior as well. So when I think about that from just certainly a Christian perspective, one of the things that we know from Genesis 3 is that the curse affects men and women differently. The curse for a man is much more in the realm of basically like, you know, this podcast that you all do is great, but it’s going to be surpassed by some other podcast in the near future. Jay, do you know something? I know. Ever tell us don’t tell us that or, you know, you wrote a good book, but there’s going to be a better book on sexual brokenness that’s written in about two or three years. And so that has men had that experience of futility. And what the curse is, is that basically you’re going to get through most of your life and there are going to be thorns and thistles and you’re going to be bloody. You’re going to be sweaty. And then all the freakin work that you did is going to return back to dust. And so that experience of dust and thorns and thistles is going to shape our involvement with unwanted sexual behavior. Right. That’s the power dynamic that I talked about earlier in the show, is that if that’s most of life, I don’t want to live there. So give me an affair. Give me some porn, because then I can actually get what I want. And I don’t have to deal with thorns and thistles. And so that would be much more the curse for a man. The curse for a woman in Genesis 3 is far more of a relational bent. It’s about child bearing. But it’s not just about childbearing. Just because you don’t have kids doesn’t mean that you can escape the curse.

[00:26:11] But it’s a relational curse for women. And so some of the female entrepreneurs that I work with, part of what they describe is that they’re not always understood to the degree that they want to be understood when they get into these roles. And one client in particular that I’m thinking about, she has started just a remarkable company. And part of what she’s dealing with is her home life. And she has a husband that I would say is largely envious of her success. That is recognizing that she’s on the road quite a bit. And so she feels this built-In tension of like I feel like I want to grow this company. I want to be successful. And yet at the same time, there’s a lot of. T.k in a lot of rejection that her husband is experiencing at home. And so I think for her it’s that how do I live in this tension of I want to see growth. I want to see my own career really take off. But there’s a lot of envy for her life. And part of what happened to her, just even on a business trip, was that another man and her organization began to talk with her to just kind of said, tell me how hard this has been. And so part of what happened for her in the midst of this is that her husband has abdicated emotional availability to her, which then sets her up when she’s on the road to actually experience a man that’s very engaging. And so just the fantasy around what an affair it look like with this man in my own company is both something that highlights the tension of what she’s then at home. But I think in many ways would sabotage her whole career and then kind of go back to her home life, pretty defeated and now soiled. And so I think just especially as a female, there’s so much more relational tension both in the workplace and at home that they’re always having to metabolize.

William [00:28:01] No, that makes a lot of sense. That’s a really interesting dichotomy there of walking through the two different approaches and the two different curses that, you know, we experience differently. One of the others that we run across a lot. I mean, if you listen to the podcast at all, you’ll know we spend a lot of time talking about identity and understanding that you’re beloved child of God first and that you’re a business owner second. What leads to that and a lot of situations is loneliness and isolation. Right. I mean, most of the leaders spend a lot of time. You know, no one ever tells the truth to the CEO. Right. You know, the old cliche and in my life, just my friends. I mean, you know, it’s business trips when temptation is higher in my own life. That’s when temptation is higher. You know, that’s when the brokenness feels like it comes out more and you’re alone. Could you maybe talk a little bit about how that might affect an entrepreneur who sits in that chair?

Jay [00:28:49] Sure. Yeah. So one of the things that my research found was that people who looked back at their life and saw a lot of failure, experienced a lot of loneliness, were seven times more likely to increase their involvement with unwanted sexual behavior. So one of the ways that I have thought about sexual brokenness is just kind of to think about it as a squatter in our lives. And when I use the word squatter, what I’m referring to is basically someone that takes up residence in someone’s house when it’s not being lived in. So a couple of years ago, my wife and I were moving from one rental house to another rental house in the Seattle area. And if you’ve ever been kind of at that scene, at the end of the day, it’s hot, it’s sweaty summer time. And my shirt is completely drenched in sweat, completely exhausted. And my wife just kind of says, we totally forgot all the baby stuff down in the basement. And I’m like, oh, crap, we don’t have any room left in the truck. I’ll just come back in a couple of days and pick this stuff up. So we unload our rental truck the next day. And then about two days later, three days later, I return back to our former rental house to pick up the baby stuff. And I start walking up to the house and had this really ominous feeling come over me. And I look up and there’s this man inside the window peering between the curtains. And he mouths some expletives at me, basically saying, get the heck out of here. And it was in that moment where I just had that split second decision of, do I confront this guy? Do I kind of reclaim all this baby gear or do I just realize that this stuff is bound to go to Goodwill Value Village anyway and leave, so made the wise decision to leave. But what struck me was that this guy knew within three days that there was nobody home in this house. And so I think that that’s the equivalent of a lot of our lives, is that if our identity is only wrapped up into our company and we don’t know who we are, we are going to abdicate our own emotional lives or our own integrity. And then squatters begin to show up. So the average American watches about four and a half hours of television a day. We know how much pornography we’re watching these days. And so if we don’t know who we are, we are going to allow squatters to show up. And so I think that that’s part of the challenge for a lot of us, is to kick those squatters out, to realize that these squatters end up ruining our lives if we allow them to be there. So I think that that’s part of what we have to recognize is, you know, there was a study done couple of years ago that middle aged male loneliness is the single greatest health factor, greater than heart disease, greater than cancer. And so what are we doing with our own loneliness, especially as men? And if we’re not really careful to address and to turn towards and to have friendships and to have people that care for us, inevitably we are going to have sexual brokenness show up in our life.

William [00:31:53] Now, that’s really good, and one of the projects that we’ve been talking a little bit about, some practical resources. Could you tell us about the Heart Amand project and what you did there? And I know you created one a great cinematic film, but also some resources to go along it. Could you just walk us through that project and how that came about and what was the fruit of it?

Jay [00:32:12] Sure love to. So the heart of man film is basically this dual genre film part documentary where you begin to hear from a lot of men and women about their own sexual brokenness, the way that that’s impacted their personal lives, their marriages. But then it’s also a retelling of the prodigal son story. And so the producers and the directors decided to kind of use a violin, basically as a metaphor for the father’s heart towards his children. And so just this reality that God has put a melody and music into us, and that is how the heart of the father was a back is not with condemnation, not with judgment, but with a song. So the central premise of the heart of man film is that our shame is not a barrier. But it’s actually a bridge.

[00:33:00] And so the heart of man film and I teamed up in the last year to create basically an online journey of 18 episodes to really invite people to connect the dots between how their life story is connected to their sexual brokenness. Because that’s what we want everyone to realize, is that our sexual brokenness is nothing to be ashamed of. Instead, it’s the stage through which the work of redemption will be played out in our lives. And so we teamed up to create something called Journey into the Heart of Man. And people can find that it w- w- w- heart of man journey dot.com. And so this is a 18 week deep dove into your own family, your own family system. Some of the difficulties that you may have experienced and growing up like bullying or abuse. And then to really step into what’s going on in your life in the present day, from stress to anger to depravation and to recognize how all of that is shaping your sexual story. So, you know, most of the programs out there to address sexual brokenness in the church tend to be about six to nine weeks long. And then people wonder why it didn’t work. And so we thought we need to create a pretty thorough five month, six month journey that will provide people with assignments, things to write, books to read and really set people up. Well, for the types of conversations that we need to be having, if we’re gonna find freedom from sexual brokenness. So really amazing. We’re starting to have our first cohorts that I’ve journeyed through it for those first six months and we’re just hearing absolutely astounding, beautiful testimonials and feedback from people who have been on this journey. So certainly if you’re looking for, you know, a recovery resource, certainly one that you could do with a good friend, accountability partner if you already have it in place. I would just highly, highly recommend it.

William [00:35:00] It’s fantastic. And come to a close here. Thank you so much for spending time with us and digging deep into a topic that I think a lot of people obviously have struggled with statistics or statistics. Right. And so if you’re one of the rare people that hasn’t, you have friends and family members that are going through it. And so it’s just so important you have fellow entrepreneurs going through it, obviously. And I think I don’t know if the research has been done, but my gut would be there more prevalent than other personality types on average. And so that’s just an important topic for our audience and for our listeners. And as we do come to a close, one of things we always like to ask is no, what? What’s your news? God have you on right now? You know, maybe what part of scripture has been coming alive to you? Maybe this morning could be this week could be the season, right. Maybe he’s got you in a passage for this season, a life. Where is he taking you today and in this in this time?

Jay [00:35:50] Two things come to mind. The first is that, you know, Romans 2 4 is that do you not know that is the kindness of God that leads to change. And so, I mean, just as I look at a lot of things in my life that need to change, one of the ways that I normally default to is just kind of contempt. Right. I hate myself. And that’s why I go for a longer run. I hate that I have historically had sexual brokenness. So I’m just going to kind of hate myself and, well, myself and change. And it just doesn’t work. And I think part of what that passage is inviting men to is how do I kind of as the Beatitudes like blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. So I think that that’s part of what I’m experiencing in the season is just the kindness of God that’s really willing me to a very different type of change than I would have originally wanted. Kind of early in my adult life. And so I think that’s a lot of what I’ve been and just personally is just the really. Experiencing something of the gentleness of God for my own life. And to be kind to the places in my life that I’m currently struggling. And I think the second thing that I’ve been really impressed with is Josh McDow. You know, the famous apologist more than a carpenter. I forget what his well-known book is. But one of the things that I heard him say recently is that we need more than Jesus. So this is Friday, one of the most influential evangelicals. And what he’s been telling people is we need more than Jesus. But how many sermons do we hear? How many songs do a thing that actually say the exact opposite of that? And what he says is that there are fifty nine one another’s statements in the New Testament. So it’s love one another, care for one another. Share your burdens with one another. Don’t pass judgment on one another. And so I’ve been really struck by that, especially as entrepreneurs, how much we try to do on our own in this kind of counterintuitive approach of what does it mean to have one another’s in our life as we journey through difficult moments in our marriages. Difficult moments in our businesses. And I think also the successes. One of the things that I often hear from executives that are clients of mine is that they don’t really even have many people to share some of the highlights with with their life. So they made X amount of money and most of their friends are completely jealous of them. Right. So I think it’s just that thing of in our brokenness and in our celebration, we need one another. So I think those would be the two things, the kindness of God and just the sweetness of what it means to have one another in our lives.

William [00:38:36] I mean, I mean, it’s such good words. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. This is just been a a pleasure and a gift to me and to our audience. So like I said, I got to see Jay at a conference recently. And just it was amazing to see and talk to people about the responses to this research about a topic that it’s almost like this and money are the two things everyone knows are huge, massive problems for entrepreneurs. But we don’t talk about them that often. So thank you for trying to be a light in the darkness in this area.

Jay [00:39:05] Thank you for having me on. And just allowing your platform to bring light into the darkness. So thank you to Henry. Thank you. William.

This week’s podcast guest is Jay Stringer. In addition to all that he shares in his interview, we wanted to feature this incredible resource he has put together alongside the producers of The Heart of Man documentary.

If you or someone you know is struggling with sexual brokenness and looking for a path to healing, we hope you consider checking out this video, the entire series, and many other resources, all of which can be found at Jay’s website and at heartofmanjourney.com

For our friends attending SOCAP, Robert Kim is coordinating a meetup for Faith Driven Entrepreneurs and Investors that we wanted to highlight. If you’re new to the conversation, here’s a quick scoop:

What is Faith-Driven Investing? Faith Driven Investing is a movement of an increasing number of asset owners, fund managers, and entrepreneurs that are driven by their faith. We all come around some unifying principles as a starting point and know that God owns all that we have and that we are called to faithfully steward our gifts – as investors, entrepreneurs, etc. We all have our unique parts in the broader Faith-Driven Investing ecosystem. 

At this event, the panelists will discuss the following three topics:

a) How Christian faith informs the way entrepreneurs lead and manage their own enterprises

b) How faith influences the way investors manage their assets

c) Practically speaking, how investors can align their assets in a faith-driven manner

Our hope is to discuss these three questions at a deeper level and create a dialogue to encourage one another to pursue our unique calling as investors, entrepreneurs, etc.

We are delighted to have amazing panelists, including Henry Kaestner (Sovereign’s Capital), Bryce Butler (Access Ventures), Jimmy Quach (Good Paper), Jonny Price (WeFunder), and more! In their own journey as investors and entrepreneurs, they have wrestled with these two questions deeply. We’re excited to hear their stories – both successes and failures – lessons learned, and practical next steps!

Big thanks to Dr. Scott Rodin for allowing us to share blog posts originally published on his website “The Steward’s Journey”. Check it out for more great content!

— by Kelsey McFaul

Gary Ringger stewards businesses, foundations, nonprofits with hope. He was in his early thirties, the president of a successful agricultural feed company, and a start-up food processing business. He had a wife and three young daughters. But Gary Ringger was experiencing the darkness of depression.

“I started waking up at one or two o’clock in the morning in a cold sweat. I could feel my heart beating fast in my head, and I would lay there consumed with dark thoughts. I couldn’t think straight; my mind was like tires spinning on ice.”

Despite his early business success with Ringger Feed, an agricultural feed company started by his father Edwin, Gary realized he was completely out of his depth with the processed foods Ringger Foods produced. He was consumed with worry about health and food safety, terrified his products might make someone sick.

“I had an ownership mindset. I had realized how much bigger the food industry was than the feed industry, and I was expecting great success with Ringger Foods. I told my wife Marla, ‘we’re going to get rich and retire at the age of 40 and live the American dream.’ Now the American dream didn’t mean anything. I just wanted my life back.”

Gary considered himself the owner of his businesses and as such took full responsibility for their successes, and their failures. When things got difficult, he wanted nothing more than to leave the leadership role where he exercised an ownership mentality.

“I just wanted to quit. But as I was crying out to God in desperation many nights and during the day, I couldn’t come to a peace about quitting. I felt like God was saying, ‘Don’t quit. Change your paradigm.’ And ultimately that led to a contract with God about Ringger Foods.”

With Marla and Edwin’s participation, Gary drafted an agreement with God.

“The contract basically said that if Ringger Foods ever became successful and we sold it, we would pay ourselves back with interest. But anything over and above that interest would be given to charity or used in some way for ministry. The business had no value, so it wasn’t a big sacrifice at the time.”

Despite the agreement’s low financial stakes, its implications for stewardship were monumental. In literally signing over ownership to God, Gary declared he was no longer the owner of Ringger Foods, but merely its manager or steward.

“Ultimately, that was life-changing. I was submitting. All of a sudden, it was a much more tangible stewardship relationship with God, and it changed my prayer life.”

Before, Gary had struggled to sleep, plagued by anxiety, depression, and worse. Now, he was waking up early to spend time with God.

“First thing in the morning, I wake up. I’m still struggling with depression; I don’t know what in the world to do with this business. But I went out and I got into a pattern based on the Lord’s Prayer. I’d say, ‘Our Father who art in heaven’ and think about the attributes of God. ‘Thy kingdom come, thy will be done’–that was always focused on submitting, not my will but Your will.

“‘Give us today our daily bread’–I had three prayer lists, for my family, for my ministry and work, and for others. I started praying about specific things in business that I’d never really done before. Before I’d pray for Ringger Foods to be successful so I could retire at age 40 and live the American dream.”

Once freed from this prayer of ownership, Gary’s prayer life was transformed.

“Now I’m in a more tangible stewardship relationship. From a discipline, maybe 5-10 minutes of prayer where I was trying not to fall asleep, it was sometimes half an hour, 45 minutes, an hour. It became the sweetest part of my day.”

As he practiced acting as a manager rather than an owner, Ringger Foods became successful as well. In 2002, Gary sold it and, per the contract, divided the net profits between a family foundation, The Manna Group (TMG) Foundation, and a new business to fund the foundation.

Around the same time, Gary and Marla had privately helped a couple cover the cost of adopting a child. Once TMG was founded, they began to administer more grants to eliminate the financial barriers to adoption–including court fees, health care, travel expenses, childcare and household supplies–that many families face.

The Ringgers were approached by a small nonprofit working in Ukraine. After a probationary year, they took over daily operations in 2005, a decision that brought with it new struggles for stewardship.

“We really struggled. We had to go from being the supplier of the money to having to ask for money. We didn’t want to do that. I’m a businessman. I don’t ask for money; I make money. A lot of that struggle was rooted in pride. Not wanting to ask for money and just really not giving it to God.”

It was advice on surrender from two mentors that began to turn things around.

“My dad told me, ‘Gary, you don’t have to twist anybody’s arm. You just need to tell them the story, and if they want to join, they can.’ And I heard a song by Rich Mullins on the radio: ‘Hold me, Jesus, I’m shaking like a leaf.’ That’s the way I felt, and God really convicted me, ‘This is just not about your family. This is about My family, God’s family.”

In this new venture, Gary found himself surrendering ownership not only of his family’s finances, but also the purposes they were used for.

The renamed nonprofit Lifesong for Orphans provides financial assistance for adoption, foster care support, church and ministry partnerships, and international orphan care.

Lifesong continues to support adoptions and foster care in the United States and its international orphan care ministry has expanded from Ukraine to currently total 13 countries.  Its unique 100% pledge means that 100% of funds donated to a specific family will fund their adoption expenses. The pledge is made possible by the TMG Foundation and its additional business ventures, including Lifesong Farms in Ukraine and Zambia.

“My life has been much more than I ever dreamed it would be. I’ve learned that I don’t want to do what I want to do, because I’ve blown it so many times. I want to do what God wants me to do.”

Yet in the midst of his exciting ministry and entrepreneurial work, Gary still occasionally feels the darkness that marked his early years in business.

“I find that if I get too many things going on and I don’t have enough quiet time, there’s a side of me with that depression that can get bogged down. If I give myself some time for solitude and quiet time, every day is joy.”

Stewarding his relationship with God and with himself, reminding himself of the person God made him to be, helps Gary surrender his worry, ownership, and busyness. The light of hope begins to diffuse the darkness of depression.

“I have some verses I collected during that struggle time that I still use today. One in particular is Psalm 33:22, ‘Let Thy mercy be upon us, O Lord, according as we hope in Thee.’ Instead of being self-sufficient, when you’ve given up control and you’re really just hoping in God and saying, ‘I can’t do it, You’re my hope,’ that in a sense unleashes His mercy in a very supernatural way. Then it’s not work, it’s just trying to be a good steward.”

Gary’s Power Verses (a selection)

Psalms 33:22—“Let thy mercy, O LORD, be upon us, according as we hope in thee.”

Isaiah 40:29—“He gives power to the weak, And to those who have no might He increases strength.”

Luke 1:37—“For with God nothing shall be impossible.”

Romans 9:16—“It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.”

2 Corinthians 3:5—“Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God.”

Philippians 4:6-8—“Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.”

——

[Special thanks to Cherry Laithang on Unsplash for the cover photo]

We continue to count down the Top 100 Books for Faith Driven Entrepreneurs with…

Refugee Workforce: The Economic Case for Hiring the Displaced

by Chris Chancey

Refugee Workforce weaves dynamic stories of refugees and the companies who have engaged them with hard facts to provide readers with a compelling case for hiring refugees in the American workplace.

Refugee Workforce was born out of the experience of launching a staffing company serving resettled refugees in Clarkston, GA. Author, Chris Chancey and his family moved to the fringe of Clarkston, known as the most diverse city in America, in 2013 and started a business, Amplio Recruiting, to connect refugees with open positions in the Atlanta job market a year later. For the past 5 years, Amplio has grown steadily now operating in Houston, Dallas, and Raleigh in addition to Atlanta while helping over 4000 refugees gain access to full time employment. Observing the interaction between the companies Amplio serves and the dependable refugee community, helped Chris begin to recognize the tremendous economic value generated from resettled refugees. They were not a charity case as often portrayed in the media and they were not terrorists with ill intentions as some may wish to believe. They represent a workforce of people with a strong motivation to work, add value to a local company, pay taxes and provide for their families. The most underrated workforce, if we choose to recognize it, is the one best positioned to stimulate America’s future economic growth.

Click here to listen to our podcast episode with Chris!

Click on the book cover to check out the Reviews and Purchase at Amazon

In preparation for the Business as Mission Conference happening this weekend in Silicon Valley, we sat down and talked with Mike Baer to learn more about it.

Mike Baer is a recognized leader in the global Business as Mission movement. Over the years, Mike has served as a church planter and pastor; he is an entrepreneur who has launched several businesses, the founder of an international business incubator, a prolific author, an in-demand speaker. Currently, Mike is a senior executive at EmployBridge (the largest light industrial staffing company in the US) and founder of ThirdPath (an online Business as Mission education platform). He and his wife of 42 years live in the mountains of North Carolina.

Check out the interview below to get some insight on the importance of this BAM event, why you should check it out, and what Mike is most excited about.

FDE Team: Business as mission is a phrase that is used a lot now, but it can also be interpreted to mean a lot of different things. Can you set the record straight for us? What exactly is business as mission and what does that phrase means to you?

Mike Baer (MB): Business as Mission, as a phrase, has been extrapolated to mean all kinds of things—a strategy to enter closed countries, a platform for missionary visas, ethical business, etc. Some even use the phrases to justify business, i.e. it’s only pleasing to God if it’s missional.

 The root of the term actually comes from a mission statement my company developed to explain what we did. “The Jholdas Group exists to support church planting among the unreached people groups of the 10/40 Window through the seamless integration of business as mission.” The full concept has been lost by cutting off the “seamless integration” portion.

 Unpacked like this, you recognize that the concept is simply that business is a high and holy calling from God into the world of commerce. It is not to be separated by sacred-secular thinking into some lesser thing. As a call from God, like all of life, it is to be lived under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and, thus, connected to what He is doing in the world, i.e. the mission. It is important, as well, to realize that the term mission is deliberately singular; it is not business as “missions” (i.e. connected to traditional missionary activity) but “mission” (i.e. the constant and eternal purpose of God).

FDE: Can you tell us some exciting stories and trends you’re currently seeing in the business as mission world?

MB: Business as Mission continues to be difficult to track due to the fact that most people who are thoughtful practitioners simply don’t advertise themselves as BAM or Kingdom Companies. That being said, there are some very exciting things happening in the world of BAM.

The most exciting thing to me is that BAM continues to be a spontaneous and global movement. There is no controlling organization, no revered set of leaders, no one way to do it. Instead, it is found literally in every country and in every form imaginable. The creativity and variety of BAM companies boggles the mind and demonstrate the infinite creativity of God.

The impact of BAM involves economic results, job creation, avenues for discipleship, breaking the chains of human trafficking and injustice, and a new movement of professionals men and women dispersing into the world.

One story specifically illustrates BAM potential for the Kingdom. A friend of mine from New Zealand moved to India in a traditional missionary capacity. He soon discovered that he and his family had moved into the “red light” district of a major city. His first impulse was to move but the Lord quickly confirmed that they were exactly where God wanted them. As they reached out to the prostitutes (women trapped in the sex traded due to generational poverty) and as women and girls began to turn to Christ, my friend and his wife realized that unless they could find work for these new converts they would quickly return to their old life. They started a for profit sewing business that has blossomed making jute bags for the convention business around the world and employing increasing numbers of the rescued and redeemed, thus changing their lives forever

FDE: This event might be in a unique location for you in the heart of Silicon Valley. What drew you guys here and what are you most excited about with this conference?

MB: When we determined a few years ago to focus on making “The BAM Conference” THE BAM event, we knew we needed to move it around the country (and now around the world, given the recent BAM Conference in Bucharest). So, it was logical to hold an event in California. However, Silicon Valley is known as the entrepreneurial center of the world as well as the venture capital Mecca. These two factors excite us as we seek to invite more entrepreneurs into direct involvement around the world and to fuel the spark of kingdom investing in BAM enterprises. 

FDE: Now that we’ve talked about what you’re looking forward to, let’s talk about the other side. What are you hoping to leave this conference having experienced? Maybe even take us out a few months or a year. What do you hope the attendees take from this conference, and what would you like to see them doing as they move forward?

MB: My goals and expectations for events like this are always the same. First, I want to see more and more believers with hearts for God and business enter the movement; I want to see them get out of the stands and onto the field of play. Second, I believe it is vital to see investors drawn into action; one of the great hindrances to the impact of BAM is simply lack of capital. After all, it’s a new and risky field but eternally minded investors have a big part to play. Third, as iron sharpens iron, it is exciting to see the further refinement and clarification of BAM thinking both in terms of theology of work and global best practices.

 I certainly hope and pray that participants will see their “seat on the bus” in what God is doing in and through business to expand the Kingdom of Christ on earth. More than that, I want them take their seat and travel with us.