Today’s episode features a Super Bowl champion. And while his NFL career is illustrious, it’s what Benjamin Watson has done off the field as both an author and leader that he’d like to tell you about. 

He’s written two books—Under Our Skin, which addresses the racial divide in America and The New Dad’s Playbook, which is a must-read for any father with a newborn. He’s known for speaking truth and saying the tough things that need to be said in the moment. 

And in times like these, we’re grateful for his willingness to have an honest and real conversation. As always, thanks for listening.

Useful Links:

The Watson 7

Under Our Skin

The New Dad’s Playbook

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Athlete podcast. We’ve got a special guest today. We have Benjamin Watson with us. And it is not bad if you’re wondering. It is Benjamin. And that’s a big deal for me. My oldest son is Benjamin, and he’s not Ben. He’s Benjamin as well. And we’ve been able to track Benjamin Watson’s football career over the time of last dozen or so years with my three teenage boys. And so it’s a special treat for me as a dad and as a sports fan to have Benjamin Watson with us today. So, Benjamin, thank you very much for joining us. You don’t need much introduction, but we’re super, super grateful that you’d make time for us today.

Benjamin Watson: Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. And now your son has a great name for sure.

Henry Kaestner: He does. He does. I’ll tell him that. Thank you very much. So we’ve got to ask you about the most recent news, of course, after 15 years, 200 games and a Super Bowl. You just announced your retirement from the NFL. What went into that decision and what made now the best time to step down?

Benjamin Watson: Well, it’s always a tough decision to stop doing something that you’ve been doing for most of your life. I mean, for me, football has always been around, even since I was a little kid, to be able to play in college and then to be fortunate to continue my career to the NFL. So, you know, you know, it’s going to end at some point. You just don’t know when. But I think that, you know, after so many years and injuries and all those things have to pile up. The family has grown a lot since the beginning and we moved around quite a bit. And we just have a desire to kind of slow down and see where we’re going to plant roots and see what’s next. It really is a young man’s game. And the older you get, the more you realize that when you compete on Sunday, the injuries, the surgery, all those things start to accumulate over time and the day to day gets a lot tougher. So a combination of several different things for us. It was, you know, the family just feeling like it was timem physically feeling like it was time, and also mentally and spiritually, emotionally feeling like, you know, it’s time for us to find out what the next chapter is along this journey we call life.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah. So you leave the Patriots. Seems like Tom Brady follows right behind you. What’s going on there? It sounds like Tom didn’t like the idea of being quarterback without you there.

Benjamin Watson: I guess that’s what it was. I don’t know. He did leave, which was a shock to a lot of us. I guess a lot of fans too. For me and the guys in the locker room, like he was coming up on the end of his contract, he hadn’t signed a new one, an extension. And so there’s always the possibility, look, in the NFL, there’s always the possibility that someone’s going to not be there the next year. That’s just the nature of the business. In fact, when you look at life in general. Nothing lasts forever. And just like the seasons we come in, we go out and life goes on. And so as an athlete, you understand the NFL means not for long. The problem is when you’re a guy like Tom who’s played for 20 years and no one can imagine you being somewhere other than where you’ve been. And so I think that’s why you see kind of the shock for a lot of people, because you’re talking about generations of fans who are watching him play in that uniform. But as I got to sit by him this year and get to know him more than the first time I was there, I’m just really happy for him and for his family. I mean, this is something that he obviously wanted and it was the right time for them to move on. It was the right move for their family He’s very, very thoughtful. He doesn’t really do anything on impulse. And so for him to make this type of a change, I definitely believe that there was just the right time. And so that doesn’t change anything he’s done in New England. Look, he’s still going to get a parade anytime he lands at Logan Airport. So that’s not going to change. But it is a new chapter for him, and I’m excited to watch it unfold.

Henry Kaestner: So you played you play with him. You play with Drew Brees. Of course. You played under Sean Payton and Bill Belichick. I mean, those are four of the most amazing names ever in the NFL. What’s it like playing at that high of a caliber in a game that you’ve loved with some of the best teammates, and some of the very best coaches?

Benjamin Watson: You know, football is the ultimate team sport. And the reason for that, obviously, is because it is a beautifully violent game, which makes it great. But it requires everyone to work together in a way that’s really unique among any other sports. And also, you know, when you talk about the amount of people that it takes to put out a successful product on the field, meaning to win games it’s more than simply a quarterback or an offensive line or D-line or a great coach. It’s everybody working together and everybody understanding what they do best and then doing that to the best of their ability on a consistent basis. And that’s what I learned from those four names. Those four names, like you said, are four of the greats to ever be associated with the game of football. And their greatness, they would tell you is part obviously their commitment to their craft, but also it’s the ability to encourage other people to be the best of their craft while they’re in cohort with them. And while they’re all working together.

And then I learned from all of them, you know, I was inspired by all of them in different ways and I was challenged by all of them. And some of them made me mad sometimes. But it was all to get better football. So I’m very appreciative to have crossed paths with all those guys.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, it’s amazing, amazing career. And I think that my sense, having followed your career, is that they’re all reflecting about the fact that they got to play with you as well and how you made them better. If we could, looking back at your time before the NFL, when did the gospel become real to you? And how is that going through your career and into your life as a parent?

Benjamin Watson: The gospel became real to me. I’ll say this. My earliest memories I can remember knowing about the gospel. I remember knowing or learning in church in Sunday school and going to vacation Bible school and you know, then seeing my father and my mother involved with ministry very early on, I remember my grandmother going to her church and all those sorts of things. So the gospel was a part of my life before I became a believer. It was there. So I was very aware of it. But I didn’t become a Christian until I was still early on in life. I was a child. I was around six or seven years old when I put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ. But I always knew that this was a decision that I had to make. And I got no credit or brownie points for being the son of a preacher like my dad used to always say, just because you put your head in the oven, that don’t make you a biscuit. Just because you go to church tt doesn’t make you a Christian, just because you go in the garage, that don’t make you a vehicle.

So being in church I knew was important. And I enjoyed going to church. I enjoyed being with my friends at church. And, you know, I didn’t enjoy going to church every single day. You know, someone some of us grew up in those churches where we went twice, three times a week. And that got to be a drag some time as a kid. We wanted to go somewhere else. But I also knew that just going there wasn’t it. So the Lord called me the Holy Spirit, you know, drew me to himself at a very young age. And because of that, I’m grateful for that. I’m grateful that he drew me very early. And with that, it allowed me to have a very early understanding of my own sin and where I fall short and it would leave a really, really bad taste in my mouth when I would do or say something that I shouldn’t. And I’m grateful for that conscience. And I think as a parent, you know, fast forwarding. That was years ago. So now I’m thirty nine years old and we have seven kids, have been married for 15 years. And the gospel influence, it really not even influences, but it instructs everything we do as people, as believers. Now, the gospel is what tells us how to be a proper husband, it’s what informs our world view. It informs how we engage the culture. It informs how we respond to our children, how we lead them to love them and discipline them. It informs the things that we value and the things that we consider to be important enough to have conversations about them around the dinner table at the breakfast table. It informs how we live our private lives and informs how we confess and ask forgiveness to our family, because we know that there’s a standard that is outside of what mommy and daddy simply think is the right thing to do. And so, you know, the gospel is the driving force with everything we’re involved in, whether you are an entrepreneur, whether you’re an athlete, whether you’re a teacher, whether in some sort of service industry or whether you’re in public service in your leadership, it doesn’t matter. You know, as believers, the gospel speaks to all of those areas and to all of those branches of our lives are informed by something.

Justin Forman: Could you talk a little bit specifically how the gospel informed your work in your career in the locker room was like how was it received from other teammates?

Benjamin Watson: Well, people ask that question a lot. People I talked to ask, you know, are there any Christians in the NFL? And I say, well are there any Christians at your job? And they’re like well yeah, there’s a couple. It’s the same way in the NFL. It’s just a job. You know, football is just the job where you get a paycheck like everybody else. And our job is to go perform on the field and on the practice field. And so there are believers there. A lot of very strong believes and there are guys that could care less about the gospel, guys that are anti-Christian just like anywhere else. But when I was young, my dad would always tell me about Colossians 3:23, about working wholeheartedly for the Lord and not for men, and while I can’t say that that was always my goal, my motivation when I was working. He put that little treasure in my heart and I always carried it. So I was always a hard worker and I believed that part of my working heart had to do with the fact that I wanted to be honorable with the talents that God gave me. I wanted to hone those abilities to the best of my ability, not only for myself, because that’s part of that. I had goals that I wanted to achieve, but also because I believe God put me in a position to play the sport that I wanted to play at Duke University, the University of Georgia. When I got into the league, I alwasy prided myself on, you know, working hard because you know that people are watching you. God wants us to do our work with excellence. And the challenge that we face or really the minefield that we have to be aware of is the human beings. We have a works righteousness muscle that pumps very hard, as hard as our heart. And if we aren’t careful how well we perform, we believe will be a reflection upon our value and our dignity. And we’ll also take pride in it as if we did it all by ourselves. And so the balance there is understanding that God is the one who gives us all that we have. In the book of Jeremiah talks about God being the God that says let not the wise man, you know, boast in his wisdom or the rich man boast in his riches, or a strong man, both in his strength and Jeremiah, 29. And so what he’s saying is, I look, you may be strong, you may be wise, you may be wealthy. Look, I was the one who did all of that. So how dare you boast it as if you did it for yourself. So as an athlete in the locker room that’s some of the things that I carry with me and also, you know, as an athlete, you understand that you do have a certain amount of influence. We all have a certain sphere of influence that we are responsible for. And for me, mine is the locker room, especially if I got older my career, you know, when I’m sitting there with Tom Brady, you know, next to me in his locker and he’s 43 and I’m thirty nine. They look at us like we’re ancient. So we have these old people conversations that the young guys get involved with. But with that comes amount of responsibility to speak life and truth into their lives and also to hold ourselves to that same standard. And so whatever your mission to is, whether it’s the board room or, you know, the classroom or wherever? For me, the locker room, there’s a tremendous opportunity there to tell you about the Lord, to show them with how you live, to tell them with the words that come out of your mouth to challenge people to to be very, I guess, aware and seeking opportunities to speak truth in a world that is definitely going the opposite direction. And that’s how we tried to approach my career. And now being married, you know, its bigger than me. You know, it’s also, you know, my wife, Kirsten. And any time she gets to engage with, you know, we have couples Bible studies or the women have their Bible studies and we have ours. You know, there’s we’re trying to sow seeds that will produce food. And we may not see that from the couples, but you never know. Two years, three years down the line, we’re out of the league three years. And there’s a couple that is leading because they may have heard something that one of us said three years prior.

Justin Forman: You know, I love how you’re talking about how the gospel informs every area of our life. And you know, that’s true. If we’re in the workplace or the locker room or wherever it might be that God has us. Take us back a couple years because the gospel certainly informs so many areas of our lives. But yet some of those areas people are reluctant to talk about. But years ago, you delve right into an issue with race and just a big conversation that’s been there in our country. And I was just incredibly struck by the way that you presented the issue in a winsome way and really, really just spoke some truth in a time when our country was needing it. What brought that about for you and what inspired you to sit down and write the book that came after?

Benjamin Watson: Well, the book was Under Our Skin, getting real about race and getting free from the fears and frustrations that divide us. What the book was unpacking of simple Facebook post that I wrote about my emotions following the events that happened in Ferguson, Missouri, with the officer and the young black man who was killed and and all of the unrest that happened during and after the grand jury decided not to indict the officer. And so, like many other Americans, I had been watching these things happen. And we all have our ideas about how it played out, even when we don’t have footage. But it was very, very emotional time. And I just wrote about being angry and being sad that someone lost their life and also about being introspective, because when it comes to prejudice, we all carry some in some respects, but also being hopeless, because it seems like when it comes to race in this country, which, you know, you go back, slavery started in the late 1600s and then through the 1800s. But then after that you had a series of other things that we had to deal with when it came to a person’s country, and you just hear these stories over and over again and being hopeless to feel like we’ve come a long way. But just realizing that we have so much further to go. But then also on the flipside, being hopeful that we have made this progress. And so I think that part of entering into that conversation was just a burden that I felt to find solutions and to bring people together. A lot of times I looked at myself as somewhat of a bridge. My experience in my life has been one of being in public school and private school. I’ve been in white churches and black churches. I’ve been in a university like Duke University. I want the University of Georgia. And I’ve lived in Virginia. I’ve lived in the South. I lived in the north. You know, now in Boston. I’ve lived in different areas of the country. I’ve been around different types of people. I’ve been around people who consider themselves to be, like I mentioned before, in a locker room atheists. I’ve been around people who are you know, they grew up in the church their entire life. And so I think that the way I saw it and the way I see it is that I want to engage and bring people together. But also want to engage with truth. There’s a lot of anger and there’s a lot of hurt. I want people to have empathy and see why people are hurting even if they don’t agree with it. And so ultimately, I wrote that post about being encouraged because as believers, the gospel informs how we view the world. It doesn’t mean that we don’t see what’s really happening. It doesn’t mean that we aren’t hurt and upset because injustice occurs. What it does mean is that we know a God who can correct all of those things. And it also means that whenever we enter into this, we need to enter into these types of issues with truth and with humility, with grace, and truth. Just like Jesus came. It says that he came from a father full of grace and truth. We need that same grace when we enter into these types of issues. And so right under our skin was really part telling a little bit about my experience with race. And my father, my grandfather, I include them as well, but also encouraging white Americans to really lean in and to listen to their black counterparts when they are saying, look, we feel like we are profiled. We feel like this is happening. This is why I’m angry because of this law. This happened because of redlining. That’s happened because of being neglected from not receiving this or that or whatever it may be. These are the facts. And then it’s important for those on the other side for black Americans to say, look, not every white person is out to get you. Not every white person even understands the gravity of what’s going on. And trying to bridge that gap is really trying to get people to walk in other people’s shoes. So that was the main point. Then after that my goal is to right what’s wrong. Kirsten, my wife and I, I think I was really impressed upon us the last several years, just this idea of justice. And to me, justice comes in a lot of different forms. A lot of different faces. And one of them is obviously what we talk about. We talk about racial justice, but there’s also abortion. That’s an injustice. There’s also sex trafficking. That’s an injustice. There’s also the way many of us treat women. That’s an injustice. The list goes on and on. And I believe that God wants us to be ministers of reconciliation first, reconciling to him and then to each other. And that’s kind of beyond what our mission is. That was the reason, really, I think now looking back in retrospect for the book, and that’s what I hope that people glean from it.

Justin Forman: So I’ll jump in one more thought on that, Benjamin, before we move on to something else, but just talk to us a little bit. You’re talking about division and we’re recording this in the middle of a time of crisis here with our country. And most of us are in some form of shelter in place or staying close to our home. And normally in these times of national events, it seems like it brings us together as a nation. But this one seems a little bit different. And not to say that’s without hope. And there’s other stories, but it seems like we’re still stuck in this red, blue left, right. Some of the things that divide us. How would you take some of the things that you learn walking through the division and the injustice and apply it to what we’re going through today?

Benjamin Watson: So it does feel that way. It does feel that part of the reason I think part of what makes this difficult is that we’re unable to be face to face with each other. This is actually promoting us being in our silos.

Now, that’s not inherently wrong because, you know, obviously with the virus going around, not being around someone who’s infected is quite helpful for your health. But it does allow us to kind of stay in our corners and only watch the news that affirms our belief or only look at Twitter feeds that affirm what we believe instead of saying, you know, there’s a lot we just don’t know. And one thing that I’ve been learning when it comes to race and when it comes to different opinions about racial topics. Is that a lot of us just don’t know. And even if you think, you know, try entering into a conversation or try doing some research on your own and just see what’s out there, because you may be surprised that what you thought you knew you didn’t really know does a lot of knowledge that men think they have that they really don’t. And I think that applies to where we are now. There’s a lot of misinformation. And look, I don’t know all these things when it comes to Covid 19. I don’t claim to. But I do know there’s a lot of misinformation. There’s a lot of finger pointing going on that is not helpful for the time right now. It will be helpful at some point when we get through this, but I don’t see what it helps us right now, especially if we don’t have all the information. We don’t have all the facts to even make those declarations. So that will be the main thing that would apply. You know, the second thing is just kind of the overarching idea of understanding that, you know what? As much as we try, this world is never going to be perfect. And in this war, we’re going to have trials. We’re going to have tribulation in this world. And so there’s going to be racism. It’s going to be sexism. Doesn’t mean we don’t fight it. It doesn’t mean we don’t do everything we can to correct it and call it out. And it people who will live beyond that and above that, it doesn’t mean we don’t confess it. But it does mean that until Jesus comes back, there’s going to be some of that in the world. And even when I look at this virus, that’s just indicative of the world. This is indicative of life on earth. And it’s not good. It’s terrible. It’s painful. It frustrates you and makes you angry because you think that everything is in your control and that you’re taking your vitamins and you’re doing this. You do what’s right. Then all of a sudden, everything is shut down because of a virus. And it can be very, very frustrating. But it’s just a reminder that this world is not our home. It’s a reminder that this place is flawed, as beautiful as our homes may be and as secure as we think we are in our money and our jobs and everything else that keeps us warm at night. It can be gone in an instant because this is not our home and this world will never fully, fully satisfy us. It’s only until we get beyond this place that everything will be perfect. It won’t be perfect here. And this virus just reminded me of that. You know what? Even in America, as great as she is, she still is able to fall to the same viruses and the same tragedies as any other place in the world that we sometimes look at as a lesser place. We’re all in this thing together and living on this planet that has its sickness.

Henry Kaestner: I’d love to give you a chance to share a little bit about your newest project, Divided Hearts of America. What’s the movie about? When can we expect it to release? And why should people go see it?

Benjamin Watson: Well, the Divided hearts of America is actually my first foray into filmmaking, it’s a documentary about the issue of abortion in America. And the idea for it or the impetus behind it was last year and over the last, I would guess, a year and a half, there had been several different laws that have been enacted by legislative bodies across the country, state governments, governors, most of them about reproductive health or abortion, however you want to term it. But there seems to be some sort of, you know, a ramping up. And I think the conversation is getting even more intense than it has been in recent years. And so about a year ago, I was just thinking about how could I get involved with this? My wife and I had been involved in different ways with pregnancy centers and supporting women, as well as the children and the fathers when it came to unplanned pregnancies. And, you know, always encouraging life, but understanding that it’s important to care for mothers and fathers and not just for the unborn child. And so the idea of doing a documentary kind of came about and met with a small group of filmmakers. And, you know, we decided we’re gonna do this. So Divided Hearts of America is scheduled to come out later this year. Covid 19, is messing everything up. But later this year in 2020, the full-length film and the journey is kind of my journey, discovering the truth about abortion, what it is, who it affects, how we got to this place. Who are the key figures in getting us here and what will happen if we don’t address this issue? So I interview about 30 to 40 different voices in the fields of academia, medicine, politics. We spent a couple of days on Capitol Hill, spoke to some different senators about the issue. Faith leaders. And then also I thought it was important to engage some people who didn’t agree because again, going back to the idea of empathy and understanding, it’s important to hear everybody’s point of view, whether we agree with it or not. I think the why behind what people believe is vitally important, not only to solidifying our own convictions, but also understanding how to speak with people who don’t agree with us and showing some sort of compassion. And so it’s really my journey.

Just asking the questions about what exactly is this? Do women? Is there a right to have an abortion? Should there be a right to have an abortion? What should we do to protect children? Why should we even protect them? When does life really begin? Those are some questions that I really answer in this documentary. And we’re in post-production, so we’ve done all the interviews. Now, we are putting together these different areas of the film. And I’m really, really excited about it because I think that it’s going to be very powerful for people of all convictions, really, just to hear these voices of those who are most directly affected and involved in abortion.

Henry Kaestner: I can’t wait to see it. And you hit on something there that you also talked about on the race issue as well, which is looking at different perspectives and so that each side might be able to understand what each other’s thinking. And yet, of course, you very much have a view on the sanctity of life. But I don’t know that there’s been as balanced of a review of that on both sides of the issues so that people can come together with some appreciation of perspective of what the other one brings to the table.

Benjamin Watson: Yeah, I was actually at the Supreme Court about a month ago for the oral arguments in a case concerning abortion law in Louisiana. And there were protesters outside, you know, some pro-life, some pro-choice, all outside the Supreme Court. My first time going to the court and ever being actually in the court and witnessing something like this. It really was incredible. But before it, I was walking around outside the court and I saw three women who had on shirts that said, you know, I knew that they were pro-choice. They came to protest against the pro-life people. Or, you know, you can look at it anywhere you want to look at it. But they were protesting against what was what they thought was an attack on an infringement upon their rights. And I engaged him in conversation. I didn’t tell him which way I stood until a little later in the conversation and they were kind enough to keep on talking to me. And I just asked them, you know, what are some of the things that frustrate you about people who call themselves pro-life? And they said something that we’ve heard before that, you know, they only care about the babies. They don’t care about, you know, women that are in poverty. And, you know, so you know that that’s true. There are some of those things. Is there anything that could change your mind when it came to this? Two of the women say no, there’s nothing that could change their mind. And then one of the women says, yes, I think if those people spoke to us like human beings and had a little more empathy and understood why we believe what we believe, at least I would engage in a conversation.

Henry Kaestner: Wow.

Benjamin Watson: And so look that’s not everybody. Obviously you know two of hte women said there’s nothing that would change my mind. And they kind of look at her kind of funny when she said that now. But I think she was speaking from a place of feelings demonize and vilified. Maybe for what she’s done or what she wants to give other women the right to do. Yeah, and and there’s no humanity in that. And it’s really, really hard, especially with this issue right here. This is, you know, race is a tough one. And this is a really hard one. And it’s emotional. You listen to a lot of emotion on both sides, for myself as well. I’m not saying that I’m above all this. And it makes you angry when you hear the way some people talk. Definitely. But I think on an individual level, those of us who consider ourselves to be believers, those of us who are followers of Christ. And we look at how Jesus engaged sinners, which we are. It was never devoid of truth, but it always had compassion. The time when he wasn’t compassionate, when he was dealing with the religious people. That’s why he went out then really hard to those people. But when he saw the woman at the well and, you know, he saw the people list goes on and on. It wasn’t that he was giving them a free pass at all, wasn’t that he was saying that, you know, wouldn’t have to pay for what they did. There will be consequences for their actions. None of that. He was giving truth. But he gave a lot of grace and he gave a lot of mercy and he gave a lot of compassion in the way he engaged. And I think that is a template for us when it comes to this topic especially, I’m not for, you know, just saying it doesn’t matter. It matters greatly. The lives of the unborn matter greatly to me. They should matter to all of us. But all the lives, you know, the mothers, the fathers as well, the situation. I think it would help us in how we engage to be able to understand a little bit in the film. I don’t have a lot of other voices because honestly, a lot of them don’t want to talk to me. They knew where I stand. But the goal was to least include some because it’s vitally important that we hear their why.

Henry Kaestner: Yeah, well, my sense in listening to that story is that if people were to ask those three women at the outset of the day, if there’s anything that could change your mind, all three of them would have said no. But your ability to engage was obviously material. So those are some very, very big topics that you’ve addressed through some great creative projects. Do you have a sense about what’s next?

Benjamin Watson: Well, promote this film was next immediately.

Henry Kaestner: Let’s help you with that.

Benjamin Watson: Exactly. So I will definitely be in touch when the film comes out. But there’s that there’s you know, I’m learning so much about raising money for finishing funds. And you know that that’s part of it, too, which is wholly foreign to me. But it’s been a fun process.

Henry Kaestner: Tell us all, what’s it what’s a finishing fund?

Benjamin Watson: A finishing fund is basically money that’s used really a lot of it for the editors, for the. We have two great guys that are going through all these interviews and editing them. So we got to pay them. We also have to start a marketing plan. And these sorts of things take money. We’ve got a presale theaters when the time comes. So it’s all of those things that in a film when you get to post-production, meaning that you’re past the point where you’re actually recording and filming, now you’re putting together the whole project to make it look like a movie. Because it doesn’t just look like a movie just after you film it. There’s a bunch of work that has to be done. I’ve got to do voice overs. You know, the list goes on and on of things that have to be done to make this a powerful moving film that will address this issue in our culture. So there’s a website for it. You can actually go to my website, which is the watson seven dot com. But within that, there’s a divide hearts page on there where people can kind of see where we are. You can you can click to donate if you want to get involved with supporting us in this effort. Yeah, that would be fabulous. So as far as what’s next for us, we don’t know exactly what it is. But Kirsten and I are in prayer right now about direction as to where we think we’re going to move out of the cold here in Boston and get down south to where our families are. Just trying to decide when to make that move. So. Yeah.

Henry Kaestner: The last place I want to go is another project, of course, which is you’re said to be a man of multiple jerseys, of course, but even more kids. So can you take us to your more recent book, The Dad’s New Playbook? I know why this topic is important to you, but what can a reader of the dad’s new playbook get?

Benjamin Watson: So new dads playbook is gearing up for the biggest game of your life. Basically, new dads playbook is what to expect, what she’s expecting for guys. So we probably had our third kid, second or third kid my wife said , you know, you need to write a handbook for guys so they don’t make all the mistakes you made. So they’ll, you know. So they know how to change a diaper. They know how to swaddle. They’ll know what to say when they go to the first O.B. appointment, they know what questions. As you go through the new dad’s playbook. It’s kind of like going through a season with the Super Bowl being the birth of your first child or second or third child doesn’t matter. And within the book is really an encouragement to men that, number one, you’re needed. About a third of our children now being raised without fathers in their homes. There’s a huge gap there. But really, if you talk about preparing a home for a child, it starts before the child even gets there. It starts with how you treat their mother and supporting her through this process and understanding the best way to lead and love when it comes to that. So it’s part encouragement for men then. It’s also part, you know, education. So there are several terms from trimester to you name it, that I talk about in the book, just to give men an idea of what they’re about to embark on. I remember having my first child and I’m the oldest of six kids, but I never had a kid by myself on my own or my own kids. So there’s a lot of things I didn’t know. Just because. youhave brothers and sisters doesn’t meanyou know. And so I was scared. I don’t know what causes that. I don’t know what these things mean. I don’t know why she wants me to go get you know, ice cream for her in the middle of the night. I don’t get it. How do I respond to that? I talk about all those things within the book and really had a great response. And a lot of men, a lot of women who have purchased the book for their men, but also just lots of men. I get messages just that. You know, encourage them because there’s an idea that men are aloof and incapable and that’s not true.

Justin Forman: Benjamin, it’s great having you on the podcast and so much truth here that you’ve unpacked with us. And what I love that you have pointed us back to multiple times here in our conversation is just the gospel. And you’ve pointed us back to how that is the thing that we need to look at me in these tough conversations, if you could, as we close out the podcast. Just point us to where does God have you in this season? Is there a passage of scripture that come alive to you? Maybe it’s this morning or this week that is really speaking to you in the season.

Benjamin Watson: Yeah so this week for those who are listening. You know, we recorded it this week is the week of Easter. And so this morning, we were just as a family reading through the gospel account in Matthew, of Jesus crucifixion and just the torture and the unjust trial he endured and the fact that he did all those things for us and that actually pleased the father for him to do that. And it pleased the father because of what it meant for sinner, what it meant for us. It meant that by Jesus obedience to the father’s plan, we were be able to be right with him. We were going to have our relationship restored with our creator. And it’s an amazing, indescribable event in history that has ramifications today. The world has never known a love like that. There’s been no love act that has ever happened that will come anywhere close to as Jesus just did for us on the cross. And so today, especially being Good Friday, just. Thinking about that in just realizing the ugliness of mostly just that my sin isn’t funny. It’s not okay. It’s not just because I’m a guy, you know, that it’s okay for me to think this way or look at this or, you know, have lust than my heart or pride. It is not okay. Jesus went through torture because of my sins. That’s what it cost. It cost death. And so I think today, specifically when you ask me a question, it’s kind of a somber note is realizing the gravity of my sin. But it’s not without hope, because we know that three days later he rose in victory. And so we do have hope. But we don’t understand the hope. And we don’t understand the victory. We don’t understand the gravity of all that we’ve done in this our sin nature that separates us from God.

Justin Forman: Benjamin, so grateful for the time that you give us. I know there’s probably some kids waiting downstairs, upstairs for you to rush back to them and take them through the next game of P or laser tag or whatever is on store this afternoon. But man, we’re so grateful for the time. Thanks for spending with us.

Henry Kaestner: Yes, we are. As a dad. Three boys, I thank you for equipping me with a great articulation of over and over again about the gospel. None better than the last one you just shared about dis understanding the gravity or send to be able to help us to understand the hope that we have. And that was really compelling. That was really, really good. I’m grateful for your time. Thank you for the work that you’re doing. I’m going to go to the Web site personally and fired up to do what I can to support the movie. I’ve gotten just eager to just continue following with guys. Got you doing next.

Benjamin Watson: Thank you. Thank you, both. I appreciate you guys.

Welcome to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur!

Why? It’s a big question, regardless of the context. It’s something we hear little kids ask all the time, and many of us never grow out of wondering why things are the way they are. We want to know what things are for, and going one layer deeper, we want to know what we are for. 

That’s the question at the heart of today’s podcast featuring Jeff Henderson, a pastor out of Atlanta and author of a book titled: Know What You’re FOR: A Growth Strategy for Work, An Even Better Strategy for Life. 

Jeff has been operating in the faith, work, and leadership spheres for a while, and we think you’re going to love what he had to share. As always, thanks for listening.

Useful Links:

Gwinnett Church

Know What You’re For – Video Bible Study

Who is Jeff Henderson?

Why? It’s a big question, regardless of the context. It’s something we hear little kids ask all the time, and many of us never grow out of wondering why things are the way they are. We want to know what things are for, and going one layer deeper, we want to know what we are for. 

That’s the question at the heart of today’s podcast featuring Jeff Henderson, a pastor out of Atlanta and author of a book titled: Know What You’re FOR: A Growth Strategy for Work, An Even Better Strategy for Life. 

Jeff has been operating in the faith, work, and leadership spheres for a while, and we think you’re going to love what he had to share. As always, thanks for listening.

Useful Links:

Gwinnett Church

Know What You’re For – Video Bible Study

Who is Jeff Henderson?

Episode Transcript

*Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDE movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.

Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast. Awesome to be with you all. Jeff, thank you very much for being on the show today. Let’s dive right in. Could you let our listeners in on your story, give us a brief overview of your professional career and your personal journey along the way?

Jeff Henderson: Yeah. Well, I’m so honored to be here. And, you know, I’m a preacher’s kid, as you know. And so I promised myself I would never, ever work at a church. So there you go. And working at a church for almost 18 years now. My backstory was my dad said, hey, son, if you can go do anything and be happy with that, do that. So I developed an interest in marketing and sports marketing. I know that you could do sports marketing. So it started with the Braves and then eventually wound up handling all of Chick-Fil-A sports marketing. But when I was there.

Henry Kaestner: That’s a lot to handle, by the way. Chick-Fil-A does a lot. They have their own bowl. They’re everywhere.

Jeff Henderson: Absolutely. And that was in the early days. So we got to launch of that. That was a lot of fun. And no one ever leaves Chick-Fil-A. Other than crazy people like me. But I was invited by my boss, David Salyers. He’s still a great friend of mine to the leadership conference. And it was at Leadership Conference where I felt like God told me you’re gonna help start a church some day. So that was almost 18 years ago. But I discovered that a lot of the things I learned in the business world I could apply to the nonprofit and church. And there’s a lot that the church can learn from the business world and there’s a lot that the business can learn from the church. I’ve been really blessed and fortunate to be able to work on both of those worlds and really learn a lot from organizations.

Henry Kaestner: So I’m really curious about how your work that you do right now interacts with the book you wrote. So you got a book out, Know What You’re For. Rusty will ask more questions about the book itself. But I’d love to know more about how you get the idea for it. What motivated your writing? Did this come from your personal life, what you saw in the workplace someplace else?

Jeff Henderson: Yeah, well, a mentor really challenged me because I was telling him that I was really fortunate and blessed to work for Chick-Fil-A, which is a $13 million organization, but also now able to work for North Point Ministries, which was recently named the largest church in America. I don’t know if that’s true or what, but the point is, is that I’ve been able to be on the front row of two thriving organizations and my mentor pushed back and said, well, that’s true, but it’s not just the blessing. It’s a stewardship responsibility. What did you learn from those two organizations that you could share with us, particularly about what causes an organization to grow? And so I really thought about that. And there’s a lot of similarities. And not just those two organizations. There’s a lot of similarities between thriving organizations. And I think one of the ways the world gets better is to have thriving businesses, thriving nonprofits, thriving churches, thriving organizations. And you said if you could boil it down to just a few questions, what would those be? And so when I start reflecting on that and I saw it as a stewardship responsibility, it really inspired me to write the book and just kind of build it down to two questions that I feel like any organization, if you can rally your team around these two questions and understand the power of them, I think you’ll understand how to grow your organization.

Rusty Rueff: That’s really great, this idea of know what you’re here for. You know, being the marketing guy for Chick-Fil-A, you figured out what cows and chickens were here for.

Henry Kaestner: Did you come up with that? No. Funny story about that is, you know, we were doing 3D billboards back in the day and the Richards Group, which was working with Chick-Fil-A at the time as their advertising agency. You know, we had rubber chickens over the billboard ad and, you know, cars for drive thru. And then somebody this is back in the day of faxes. And I’m not sure anyone remembers the fax machine, maybe barely, but this guy faxed over a picture of a cow on billboards said Eat more chicken. And that was when it was born. And fortunately for Chick-Fil-A, Steve Robinson and David Salyers, they really saw the genius of that idea and then stayed with it. It’s now in the Advertising Hall of Fame. I didn’t even know there was an advertising hall of Fame. So there you go.

Henry Kaestner: It would be my vote. If somebody came to me and said, there is an advertising hall of fame like you. I didn’t know there was one, but you have one vote. I’d put the cow in, no doubt about it.

Jeff Henderson: That’s awesome. It’s done, really well.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah. I mean, you know, if such a recognizable brand. So let’s go back. Let’s talk about the book and let’s go in a little deeper. Know what you’re for and here for. So I think a lot of us can get an idea for what the premises and probably many of us have our own idea of why we think knowing why we’re here matters. But I’d like to hear your perspective on it. I mean, why does knowing why we’re here matter?

Jeff Henderson: So I think there’s a huge assumption, Rusty, that everybody on the team understands the premise to this question, because it’s a simple question, but it’s not an easy question to answer. And that’s one of the reasons I asked leaders. One of the best things they should do is do a vision inventory, walk around the office or on a online chat, just say, hey, what do you think our organization wants to be known for? And just listen. And more often than not, I think leaders will be surprised that there’s some confusion. It may be a lot of confusion, maybe a little bit of confusion. But if there’s confusion in the office space, there will be confusion in the marketplace about this. And they’ve got to be really crystal clear about what we want to be known for. And this question is so important, it’s not enough to go on a three day retreat and then put it in a filing cabinet or on a document somewhere and think everybody’s got it.

You have to say it over and over and over again because leaders are repeaters. And so I think the other thing is we’re talking about his vision. And when there’s a lack of vision and organization, the biblical principle is that in a lack of vision people perish. I believe it’s also true that when there’s a lack of vision, the organization perishes as well. And this is all comes down to vision. And vision is like a bucket of water. The more words you have in the bucket, the more the words fall out of the bucket. So you’ve got to have something that’s transportable, memorable, cyclical if you will, that you can hand to folks to say, here’s what we want to be known for.

And when there’s assumptions that we all know this, that’s a dangerous assumption to be made. And so when leaders push back on this sometimes to say, hey, that’s cool, but you should still do a vision inventory and see what answers you get. And my hunch is you’ll discover that there’s some nuances and different answers that might not be or you might get some blank stares people going, I don’t really know. And the reason I think this is a big issue is when research organizations tell us that when people come to work, they’re not sure that they are experiencing a purpose to their job. That’s an aha. That’s like, OK. Then you haven’t really crystallized what this organization wants to be known for and how this person’s job connects to that purpose and mission. And so I think this is a fundamental issue for organizations in essence. Another question to ask is what is the problem our organization is gathered together to solve? Because in today’s world and this is true now more than ever, it’s no longer about being the best company in the world. It’s about being the best company for the world. And you’ve got to identify what are you bringing for the world. And marketing research will tell you the younger the demographic, the more the demographic is saying, what is your organization doing for our community and our role?

Henry Kaestner: That’s really profound. I just want to interject there. I think that that’s an obvious thing, but I don’t know that I’ve ever heard it phrased that way. We talk a good amount on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur about participating in the work that God is doing on earth that he might use us to bring about his kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. And an extension of that, of course, is being the best company for the world. If nothing else, and you’re talking about, of course, because we want to be attractive to our work force, that we want to come to work for us and stay working for us. And yet there’s a whole other purpose, a whole year ambition that’s baked in that concept, I think is super important.

Jeff Henderson: I could not agree more. Where were you when I was writing the book? OK. So because here’s what people when I left the business world, people come up to me, they still do. They’ll say, hey, why did you go into full time ministry? And I appreciate the question. I understand the question. It’s just theologically incorrect. I was already in full time ministry, and that wasn’t because I was working at Christian Chicken. OK. That was way before that when I was a busboy at a restaurant. OK. So you know that. And here’s the thing, though. When it comes to the for profit world, and the nonprofit world, typically we’ve got profit over, you know, on the business side and we have purpose over in the nonprofit side. Now, what I tell businesses, purpose is not exclusive for the nonprofit world. In fact, if you can combine a great product with a compelling purpose, that’s your ballgame. But to do that, you’ve got to really be crystal clear on what you want to be known for. And the reason this is important is because of actually the second question, and I don’t think it’s going to get in the second question right now. But what you’ve clarified the answer to that first question. It’s not enough because every day is an opportunity for an organization to deliver on that. But in essence, what you’re doing is you are delivering on your purpose, whatever that may be.

Rusty Rueff: I love the idea of what both of all the questions that you’re asking. This idea of, you know, what do we want to be known for is very inspiring. Right. I mean, it motivates you. It galvanizes you. It gives you that vision. But that question of what are we known for now is a hard question to answer. Right, to be honest with yourself. I got to imagine that as you wrote the book and as you went through those two questions, you had to also apply that to yourself as well. I mean, as we say in the startup world, you know, we eat our own dog food for a second. What did you learn when you had to ask those questions about yourself?

Rusty Rueff: Absolutely. That’s why the subtitle, Rusty, is A Growth Strategy for work, but an even better strategy for your personal life. It’s those questions really apply to all of us listening today. But that second question to your point is a pesky question, because it’s our question to influence, but it is not our question to answer. For example, if I had been crystal clear in the team that I serve understands what we want to be known for. The second question is to your point, what are we known for? And that isn’t one that we answer. That’s the one that the customer or the participant in the nonprofit answer. And here’s the power of those two questions. When the answer to what do you want to be known for and what you are known for, when the answers to those two questions match, you harness the greatest form of advertising the world has ever seen. Powerful personal word of mouth advertising. Because let’s just speak on brands for a second, because that used to be my world. A brand is no longer what it tells customers it is. A brand is what customers tell other customers it is. That’s the ballgame. And the reason these two questions are so helpful is because it can identify gaps in your vision, in the reality and delivery of your vision and the reality for all of us. Me. All of us is there are gaps in between those two questions. There’s gaps organizationally. There’s gaps personally. But here’s the exciting thing. Every single day when we come to work as an organization, it’s an opportunity, no matter what your role is, to shrink the gap between those two questions. So this breaks down silos. This breaks down departments competing with one another because we had crystallized our vision and we have measurement systems to understand whether or not we are delivering on those systems. And we shrink the gap so that customers I call vision carriers, not just customers, vision carriers carry our vision to their customers. This is why I just don’t think many large brands are leveraging. I tell this to large brands all the time and they bring me in. By the way, you’re not in social media. You’re not doing social media. They all lose their minds. What are you talking about? I can share your Instagram page or Facebook page like you’re doing digital media. You’re forgetting the social part of social media. And that’s a huge mess for organizations. The reason is because it’s that second question. When we engage with our customers on their world and their platform and their community, that makes our brand more personable. And the more personable you are, the more remarkable your organization will be.

Henry Kaestner: So I want to unpack that now That last word, remarkable. I’m an investor now. It’s a background as an entrepreneur, now I’m an investor. I spent a lot of time looking at companies and their customer acquisition costs and lifetime value. And one of the best ways, of course, to be able to hit that ratio is by lowering your customer acquisition costs and keeping customers around longer. So how do you do that? Well, if you are remarkable by your customers, that means referrals are coming in. They’re out there. They’re able to talk about your brand strategy in a way that has integrity with what you’re actually going to deliver, which means then once they come on board for free because your customer was your advocate. They come on board, you then deliver, you deliver what they thought you’re going to deliver, then they don’t leave because there’s no misunderstanding and no thought of what you’d be able to provide for them.

So that’s the extraordinarily powerful concept. If I’m listening to that, I’ve gotten that so far through this podcast. How do I do that? So I intellectually, I’ve got the concept. How do I bridge these two questions again? You talked about measurability. Clearly, that’s going to be an aspect of it. But give us three things that a business owner as they drive into the office today they show up in the office. Guys, we’ve got to get together. We’ve got to bring this together. We can buy the book for everybody, but then we’re gonna go ahead and start implementing. What does that look like?

Jeff Henderson: Can I give you four instead of three? Not because it’s for me. That’s it for you, of course. So you’ve got to be for groups of people. You’ve got to create an organization that is outwardly focused and the four groups are number one. You got to be for customers. You’ve got to be for the team. You’ve got to be for the larger community. And then you have to be for you. Ultimately, the best gift that you can give your community, your organization, your business is a rested, replenished, healthy, emotionally healthy you. And so in the book, I break down these strategies of how an organization can be for these four groups of people. And it seems like it’s kind of obvious. But when I begin to dove into this with companies, they begin to see the gaps that they’re missing, particularly as it relates to customers. And I can give you a couple examples for the customer side, if you’d like. I think these are really important. And one is just symbolically a lot of marketing in today’s world is shouting at the customer. And what we want to do football analogy is many times we put the business on the field and we want the customers in the stand cheering the business on, because that’s the most important entity. And what I’m asking organizations to do is to flip the script that the customers on the field and put the business in the stands and they’re cheering the customers on.

It’s a flip the script mentality. And the reason I say that is in today’s world, when businesses or brands advertise that they’re better than their competition, what they’re saying is customers, we want you to cheer us on because we’re the most important person entity in this organization.

The way I say in the book is if the business was a person, many businesses would be considered narcissists, because if you look at their advertising, it’s all about them. It’s all about how great they are. Have you seen their greatest product, how great our products are? We’re so wonderful. That’s not what we want to do. We want to shift the spotlight to talk more about customers. So I tell whether it’s a small business church, a larger organization. Let’s just use social media as an example. This isn’t, you know, completely about social media, but it’s an example to let you know whether or not the spotlight is on the organization or the spotlight is on the customer. So if I can give you an example in my world at Churchwell, we ask these two questions in church. Well, what do you want to be known for and what are we done for? When we started in the early days in our social media strategy is for every third or fourth post, it has to be about the community we’re trying to serve and not about us. One of our social media measurements is that we want to have a response time rate and people respond back to us on Facebook within a 24 hour timeframe. Usually it’s in its timeframe, about three or four hours. Now, if it’s Home Depot, we’re not getting anywhere near the volume of comments. But my point is this many times if you’ll go onto a brand’s Instagram page and you’ll comment to them, they’ll never, ever comment back. And that’s not where this game is going.

So to say that we’re for the customer and yet in today’s digital space, you’re not communicating and having a conversation with them. It’s a gigantic miss. And the reason is because the systems have the spotlight on the business and the business doesn’t know this. But their main emphasis is self-preservation.

So we’ve got to shift the spotlight to where we highlight the customer and give some several strategies in the book to do that. But this idea of being for the customer is so easy to say, but problematic from a marketing standpoint. It’s really ultimately the business is trying to serve itself and trying to get the customer to keep the business in business. And there’s just a different way to do that from the marketing standpoint, I believe, nowadays.

Rusty Rueff: Jeff, can I switch the perspective a little bit? You know, today as we’re recording this, we’re in this Covid 19 crisis and we like to timestamp these things because, you know, it might be years from now that someone’s picking up this podcast. We hope not, but it might be years from now or maybe we hope so. But. In the midst of this crisis that we’re in and totally the world is changing on us. Talk to us a little bit from your perspective about the role of the church and what should the church be known for? And what do you think the church is known for right now?

Jeff Henderson: So that was the question we asked eight a half years ago when we started Gwinnett Church. And, you know, our church wasn’t known for anything because we didn’t exist. So we said, let’s just take a big C picture. You know, what does the global church known for? And somebody said, you know, when it comes to the church, many people are more familiar with what the church is against rather than what the church is for. And we just looked at each other and thought, OK, get this straight. So we have the most inclusive message in the world. And yet our brand, if you will, is known more for what we’re against, rather what we’re for. And that was heartbreaking for us. And so we said, you know, right or wrong, if we go down swinging, we’re going to go down swinging, being known for what you work for. That’s what we’re going to do. And I think most famous Bible verse of them all starts with the word for word, For God so loved the world. That’s what we’re gonna get. And I think the most exciting thing I don’t know what the word is for Rusty, but in this moment, what we’ve been trying to do for eight and a half years, we just get to keep doing because now more than ever, the community needs the local church. And I told our team from the very beginning, I said, hey, if my goal here’s our here’s one of my goals for our church. If we decided to close down the church and said, hey, you know what? It’s been a great run. We’ve got a lot of fun. We’re going to sell the building, sell the property, give it all the way and go do something else. I would want the community to be so upset about that that they would rise up in protest and say, no, you can’t close down, because if you closed down, our community suffers. And that’s the kind of church I want. That’s the kind of church I want to lead. That’s the kind of church I want to serve. So we’re trying to do that right now. Now, even in the midst of self isolation and self distancing, I mean, one of the things we’re trying to do right now is to best as we know how to help support local businesses. That’s been part of our heartbeat from the very beginning. I think part of that is because of just my background in business. And many times one of things I love about what you’re doing is I’ve observed that this one is podcasts. Such a gift. The Business World and the Church world really don’t talk that often. And I don’t think it’s because they don’t like each other. They just don’t understand each other. You know, and so I’ve wanted to bridge that gap and in our little community. And so we do these things called for Gwinnett Friday. And it just features a local business in the community. But now what we’re able to do, because we have a whole vault, if you will, of social media post now we’re just able to take those pictures and take these people and post them right now in the season and say, hey, we introduced you to Steven with Heartsongs Barbecue. He’s doing online gift cards. Now, can you help Steven stay in business in these days? And so for us to have and these are people that some of these people go to our church. Many of them don’t. That’s not the point. The point is, if you’re a local business leader in our community, we want to help you because we believe thriving businesses helped create a thriving community is part of what helps create a thriving community. And again, sometimes I’ll get pushback like, well, we can’t do this for everybody. But I love what Andy Stanley says do for one, what you wish you could do for everyone. We can’t do this every day, but we can do it every Friday. So that’s an example, Rusty of us going, you know what, we want to be a value add to this community. Another quick thing is in our community and Gwinnett, high school sports are gigantic, OK? So we have large high schools in our county. Well, I mean, we promote and we elevate local sports like you wouldn’t believe in. A thing I love about it is these local high schools retweet us and we share our post. And I love it because I’m thinking, OK, I grew up in the day of separation of church and state. But when people see on a public high schools Twitter page, Gwinnett Church, nobody loses their minds. Nobody calls the governor. Nobody protest because we’re not talking about us. We’re talking about them. But as we talk about them, it creates a relationship with these local schools that shows much favor. And we want to try to reach their students. So that’s a quick example, I think, of wanting to be a church that’s known more for who or what we’re for than who and what we’re against.

Rusty Rueff: Yeah, that’s that’s that’s a beautiful thing. I mean, I know it’s a little speculative, but as you think about how we come out of this phase. What are your thoughts now? I mean, how do you think we reengage? What does the church look like in the future? And then, you know, I mean, again, we’re asking you to be speculative. It could end up being totally different. We all know that. But I think there are people who are trying to figure this out who will be listening to this and any words of wisdom that you have or just or just what you’re thinking would be helpful.

Jeff Henderson: One thing I’m doing is I’m trying to listen to other organizations and what they’re doing, because I heard somebody put it this way. We’re all in the same storm that we’re all in different boats. The reentry part is going to be a question for all of us. And fortunately for me, so many great friends at church feel like they’re facing very similar challenges that they’ve developed kind of a task force, kind of a reentry task force. The challenge Rusty is this thing is happening, changing, not on a daily basis. It seems like it’s changing on an hourly basis. And the assumptions you had one hour may be different from the other. I was on a phone call earlier this morning with all of the lead pastors at Northpoint. And we started talking about what is our reentry look like? The challenges is we don’t know, will there be a general phase? OK, we’ll let 50 people get together. OK, we’ll let one hundred people get together. OK, we’ll get 250 people together. So not knowing that puts you in a little bit of a problem. But here, the questions that we’re asking that I think can lead us there, even though the circumstances may change by the time we’re done with the podcast. The first is what are things that we want to walk away from? For example, if there are things that we lived without and still thrived as a church, then the question we have to ask is do we need that in the first place? Then the second thing is what do we need to double down on? In other words, wow, this really works and we’re gonna double down on this. The third question is where can we take new ground? What are we doing now that we weren’t doing before investing? You mentioned this before we started recording. Where what are things we’re doing now that is showing us how this could be new ground? And then the fourth, somewhat similar to the first question, but is what is essential? What is essential in this moment? And I think as this plays out financially for organizations, it can be a gift in terms of getting lean on your purpose, because when stock markets high and everything’s great, sometimes a natural reaction is let’s hire, let’s add, let’s add, let’s add. I think this is a leading process to go what is essential. And then another bonus question is, what does this make possible? What does this make possible? So I’ll give you a clue real quick of something that we’re experiencing and you mentioned alluded to this again before we got started. Rusty. One of the things that we’re seeing is that people love the live chat stream. What we’re doing our services. So I don’t think it’s enough anymore just to put your services online and get, you know what, we’re we’re a digital church now. We’ve got our services online. I mean, that’s great. I mean, I started Northpoint a lot, so I’m all for that. OK, that’s not a complete online digital strategy. Cutting your church service online, I think even maybe creating a different Sunday experience for the online gathering versus just showing your service. Again, don’t quote me on this, although you are because this is recorded. But I know is that the line in-person service should be completely different than the chat stream digital service. And how much we’ll will get churches is to watch the viewership rate in terms of how long someone stays on your your online service, because the assumption is they’re staying there the whole time. And that’s a gigantic assumption. Typically, it’s about a quarter of what you think about a log service. Somebody stays in for about 15 minutes. He walks away and leaves. That’s that’s pretty much on line church. So I think what we’re experiencing now is we’ve got to have a completely different approach to engage people where they are. I’ll give a quick example. I did this Sunday between so our services are 9:15 eleven scenic one. We have two locations. So we just follow that. You know, not fifteen online service, 11:15 online service.

And in between, I’ll do a live chat on Facebook and the live chat on Facebook. Far outpaced the engagement in the length of viewership that our online church service. And so that was that was an aha. Okay. We got to pay attention to that, because what seems to be resonating is this interactivity that people are created for. Now, when we’re all back together, will that happen? I don’t know, but I do think this is an opportunity to experiment and explore and ask what’s possible.

Rusty Rueff: I totally agree. I was just talking the other day with an entrepreneur who has had this piece of technology that is used in E-Sports for a long time where we can all watch the E-Sports live, but we can break into our own little groups and actually talk. But he equates it to how we go to a baseball game. When we go to a baseball game, we sit in a baseball game and we pay attention. But we also we have community, we have we have socializing that goes on in this technology allows at the end of something for everyone to clap out loud and everyone to hear it, including the people who are either doing the performance or playing the game or doing whatever. And I sit there and I look at that and I go, well, that’s the kind of technology that at some form and time has to find its way to the church. And maybe at a moment, just as this.

Jeff Henderson: And I love that. The reality in any crisis in history, there are organizations that come out of it thriving and their organizations that don’t make it. And I think the flexibility that this is forcing us to have is important. But you’ve got to give yourself permission to try a few things in this season, knowing that they may not work or they may work for the season. But I have a hunch that a digital strategy that is providing connectivity with the person that’s hosting, that’s the future may go to Instagram right now.

And what we’ll see up top is Instagram live Instagram live. And what that’s so Justin Bieber was doing this last night. And, you know, millions of followers, but it was an opportunity for somebody to just he wasn’t able to respond to everybody. But that wasn’t the point. Occasionally he would go home. Let me say hi to Henry. Henry, how are you doing today? You just made that. He’s making his day, right, when Justin Bieber sees your name out loud.

Henry Kaestner: He’s not. No, no. Great guy. Great guy. I don’t know that I’m a belieber. But yes, just next time you do something like that. Put in Rusty’s name, please. All right.

Jeff Henderson: I will do that. But he saw, for example, you saw Steph Curry with the Golden State.

Henry Kaestner: That works. You heard him call out to me. Yes, he did. Yes, he did.

I should’ve done basketball. So, Steph Curry, I don’t know if you saw this or not, he and his wife Aisha did a live worship thing so they would pull different worship leaders in. Just blew up. But he’s able to interact with people and it’s live. I think there’s something again. In fact, my son the other day said, I noticed that you go to his room now. It’s like you got a string of people that are Instagram live? That’s a hint. That’s a hint of the future, I think.

Henry Kaestner: You know, Steph Curry, by the way, not not Steph Curry. I get it. I’m a Carolina basketball fan. Seth Curry’s at Duke basketball player. Also a great guy, great player. But being in the Bay Areia, it’s Steph Curry that that would really get me going.

Jeff Henderson: Please don’t tell me I messed that up.

Henry Kaestner: So I won’t. I won’t, I won’t, I won’t. This has been great. And one of the things we do with every one of the guests we bring on board is we ask them something about what God is speaking to them through their word, through his words, rather, what is God speaking to you through his word right now? And it could be. But right now, I mean, it could be this morning in your devotionals. It could’ve been yesterday. Could be this week. But what’s the sense of what God is speaking to you individually right now?

Jeff Henderson: So we just came off twenty four hours of continuous prayer for our church. We asked everybody to sign up for just 30 minutes, for twenty four hours starting yesterday at 9 a.m.. And so for me, part of the way I used my 30 minutes was just reading through the Book of Psalms. And one of the things that really stood out to me is God is my shield.

And you know, we want to practice self-distancing and self-isolation and all that. We’re all for that. But I still got to leave, and you know, move forward, even though I have my own fears. And you’re like, can I go outside for a walk? You know, how do I do this? I can’t turn to anybody. Hey, when you went through a global pandemic, know, 20 years ago, what did you do? There’s no books on this necessarily. So for me, I felt like God said, hey, I’m your shield. Keep taking one day at a time.

And then the other thing that I feel like God has been asking me to do is to pray more for his glory than my relief. Because early on I was praying, God, get us out of this. God I know you can do a miracle. I know you can do it. You could be Thanos of The Avengers and you could snap your finger and this whole thing goes away. Right. Even though Thanos was an evil character. Just go with me. So. But what if there’s a deeper play here. So I’ve had to really start shifting. Still pray God, I want this thing to go away. I believe you can do that. But if that’s not what you want to happen, I want your glory to manifest in my leadership and in my family. Then the other thing, too, is I can get drawn into work and somewhat forget my family. So I have to balance that right now. Right. I got to balance because you got the pressures and especially a nonprofit. You know. What’s giving like? And all the normal pressures in any organization leader has. But in this day, my family needs me just as much as the organization does. And so don’t lose don’t lose that. I think being a shield. God as my shield. Praying for God’s glory more than I pray for my relief. And ultimately, there’s gonna be another lead pastor at Gwinnett Church. There will never be, you know, Wendy’s first husband and father to Jessie and Cole. So focused on those.

Henry Kaestner: Great place. And Jeff, I’m very grateful for you. Rusty and William and I and Justin are just grateful for the view that you’ve given for the church and the opportunity for the church about being able to connect the what we’re for and what we’re known for completely applicable as we talked about with the Faith Driven Entrepreneur. Very timely. Grateful for you and your ministry. Thank you.

Jeff Henderson: Thank you. Thanks for having me. What you’re doing is very important. You’re speaking to a group of people that I’m fondly and deeply have a huge respect for, so thanks for how you’re serving them.

(For 26 years, God has used Leadership Edge to mentor hundreds of emerging leaders.  This article is written by its founder, John Hawkins.)

— by John Hawkins with Leadership Edge Inc.

For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith, both yours and mine. – Romans 1:11-12 (ESV)

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. – Hebrews 13:7 (ESV)

But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us the good news of your faith and love and reported that you always remember us kindly and long to see us, as we long to see you— for this reason, brothers, in all our distress and affliction we have been comforted about you through your faith. For now we live, if you are standing fast in the Lord. For what thanksgiving can we return to God for you, for all the joy that we feel for your sake before our God, as we pray most earnestly night and day that we may see you face to face and supply what is lacking in your faith? – I Thessalonians 3:6-10 (ESV)

Amid this COVID-19 pandemic, it is quite sensible for us to cancel many things.  Our current context requires these cancellations.  However, when it comes to Christian mentoring meetings, I believe that our context is a perfect one for Christian mentoring and that with the ease of technology accessible to all of us, now is a great time to continue the mentoring relationship.  Why do I believe this?

I believe that the core purpose of a Christian mentoring relationship should be the upbuilding of each other’s faith in Christ, especially in tough times, for the glory and honor of God*.  In first-century Christianity, there were great challenges to daily keeping one’s trust in Christ. There was the challenge of life’s hardness for many in that era and the prevalence of the persecution of Christians.  As the passages given above indicate, the focus of Christian leaders was to build up and be encouraged by the young believers’ steadfast daily trust in Jesus amid life’s difficulties and challenges.

The question for all Christians during the COVID-19 crisis, “what is our trust and hope in now?” Is it in the correct practice of handwashing, social distancing and self-quarantining?  Is it in our government setting the right strategies and funding the right programs?  Is it in our figuring out which stores have toilet paper and stocking up on it? ☺  Is it in us being young enough and in good health enough to be able to get through having the virus but not suffering too badly?

The COVID-19 pandemic tempts us to foolishly think that our hope is in our ability to manage things on our own.  Question One of the Heidelberg Catechism points us in a better direction.

What is your only comfort in life and death?

That I am not my own, but belong with body and soul, both in life and in death, to my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ. He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood, and has set me free from all the power of the devil. He also preserves me in such a way that without the will of my heavenly Father not a hair can fall from my head; indeed, all things must work together for my salvation. Therefore, by his Holy Spirit he also assures me of eternal life and makes me heartily willing and ready from now on to live for him.

The faith and hope that we have as Christians are in God our Father, Christ our Savior and the Spirit our Comforter.  These form a sure anchor for us and a steady guide for us through this COVID-19 storm.

The reason why this pandemic provides a perfect context for Christian mentoring is because all of us deal with the daily temptation to put our faith in hand sanitizer and public policy rather than in God.  God uses mentoring as a place in which we can come prayerfully together, honestly share how our faith is being tested or strengthened, encourage each other, pray with each other and then reenter the storm again with each of our trust in Jesus more fully intact.  As Dietrich Bonhoeffer said,

Therefore, the Christian needs another Christian who speaks God’s Word to him. He needs him again and again when he becomes uncertain and discouraged, for by himself he cannot help himself without belying the truth. He needs his brother man as a bearer and proclaimer of the divine word of salvation. He needs his brother solely because of Jesus Christ. The Christ in his own heart is weaker than the Christ in the word of his brother; his own heart is uncertain; his brother’s is sure. (Life Together, pp 11-12)

During the COVID-19 crisis, we encourage mentors and mentees to be even more committed to meeting, utilizing web video conferencing or phone calls as needed**.  When you meet, don’t dodge those things about this crisis that either divert your trust in God or that confuse you about trusting God.  If you’re an older person mentoring a younger person, help each other to see the challenges brought by this crisis that each of you may not immediately understand. Brainstorm together as to opportunities that this crisis provides in serving others and in speaking of Christ to others.  Pray in faith for each other’s concerns.  Be strengthened together by the wise counsel of believers who have gone before us and realize the great relevance of their perspectives to our modern lives.  Along with the quotes above from the Heidelberg Catechism (1563) and Dietrich Bonhoeffer (who was hanged in a Nazi prison in 1945), also consider the following quotes.

From a pamphlet written by Martin Luther in 1527 entitled, “Whether One May Flee from a Deadly Plague.”

“Therefore I shall ask God mercifully to protect us. Then I shall fumigate, help purify the air, administer medicine, and take it. I shall avoid places and persons where my presence is not needed in order not to become contaminated and thus perchance infect and pollute others, and so cause their death as a result of my negligence. If God should wish to take me, he will surely find me and I have done what he has expected of me and so I am not responsible for either my own death or the death of others. If my neighbor needs me, however, I shall not avoid place or person, but will go freely.”

From Edward B. Pusey (1800-1882)This, then, is of faith, that everything, the very least, or what seems to us great, every change of the seasons, everything which touches us in mind, body, or estate, whether brought about through this outward senseless nature, or by the will of man, good or bad, is overruled to each of us by the all-holy and all-loving will of God.

Whatever befalls us, however it befalls us, we must receive as the will of God. If it befalls us through man’s negligence, or ill-will, or anger, still it is, in even the least circumstance, to us the will of God.

For if the least thing could happen to us without God’s permission, it would be something out of God’s control. God’s providence or His love would not be what they are. Almighty God Himself would not be the same God; not the God whom we believe, adore, and love.

Times like these, with all the fears, uncertainties and scarcities, provide the perfect context for the strengthening of each other’s faith through Christian mentoring.  May in these next months you have some of your richest and most important times with each other.  May you strengthen each other’s faith and thereby glorify and honor God your Father.

Footnotes:

* Leadership Edge defines mentoring more fully in the following way:Leadership Edge mentoring is a Life-On-Life relational experience between a mentor and mentee oriented toward a vision for Christ-centered, world-changing influence. 

Whether meeting over coffee or a meal or spending time in an activity together, the mentor and mentee have intentional conversations that revolve around prayer, scripture, leadership frameworks and tools, coaching, and debriefing of lessons learned.

By Life-On-Life we mean an authentic relationship through which vision, values, commitments, and convictions are shared from one person to another.

** We have available for you a paper and a podcast on Remote Mentoring Via Web Meetings that contains practical tips on conducting remote mentoring meetings.  Contact us at lei@lead-edge.com to gain access to these resources.

For more information on COVID-19, please see our page highlighting some of the best resources out there for Faith Driven Entrepreneurs in this season.

——

[ Photo by bantersnaps on Unsplash ]

At the end of every podcast, we like to ask our guests to share what God has been teaching them in this season of life. This week’s guest is Lara Casey. She what she had to say about what God is showing her through her present trials.

The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;
    his mercies never come to an end;
they are new every morning;
    great is your faithfulness. – Lamentations 3:22-23 ESV

I’m hearing a lot from God lately. And I think that times of trial can do that. They can open our ears. It is a beautiful gift in the midst of this truly awful time.

But one section of scripture has come to mind very often is Lamentations 3. I think we are all in a time of lament. We’re grieving the loss of life as we knew it. We’re grieving the loss of businesses as we knew it, of business models, as we knew them. And we’re having to re-imagine things.

And in Lamentations, the writer starts to speak about how he’s lost faith and is feeling like he’s grinding gravel in his teeth and really at the bottom of the pit. I mean, you can just imagine that visual coming to life and you’re grinding gravel in your mouth. That’s about what some of life feels like sometimes, right?

And I think especially for us as business leaders, as people of God, there’s a heavy weight on us in some ways. But how light that weight becomes when we do what the scripture says and Lamentations 3:21-23 says, “But I call this to mind and therefore I have hope. The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases. His mercy has never come to an end. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness.”

So I just love how scripture allows us to lament. It allows us to grieve. It allows us to wrestle. And yet, when we are intentional about calling our hope to mind, we not only get that ourselves, but we get to give it back to other people.

Listen to Lara’s full podcast episode here.